Chika Oriuwa: Poetry, Purpose, and Breaking White Coat Barriers

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0:49I only know two Nigerians, you and Lovie. I don't know if you know Lovie. Oh, yes. Well, I don't know her personally, but I follow her on social media. Very cool. Very cool. We once got into a whole discussion about Nigerian weddings and how they like go for three days and stuff. Did you have a Nigerian wedding like that? I did. You did? It was a very lavish affair, you could say. It was massive. And this was in 2022. So we were just not really coming out of the pandemic, but starting to get a little bit more socially comfortable with the new normal. and we had like 600 people at my traditional Nigerian wedding.

1:32I know I'm very proud of my Nigerian culture. I'm very proud of my Igbo culture, but still it was a lot. And then I had our traditional Western white wedding two weeks later. One of the people who have been on this podcast is John M. Chu. And John M. Chu is a director of Crazy Rich Asians. So I could reach out to him and ask him if he wants to make crazy rich Nigerians. It would be you and love you. Oh my goodness, that would be a wild time. And you know, I would actually love to see Nigerians painted in that light in the sense of we're not, I feel like a lot of African culture doesn't always get painted or seen in that perspective of, you know, there's absolutely affluence within African cultures.

2:23It's there as well. So I think you might be tapping into a really interesting side. I mean, let's face it. Most Americans think that Africa is a country, not a continent, right? Yes, yes, yes. And that's something that definitely, it gets to me every time I hear people say that. So this initial discussion has been so funny. We'll probably keep it in the podcast, but at some point I should introduce you. Please, please. So I'm Guy Kawasaki. You've been already listening to the Remarkable People podcast, and we're on a mission to make you remarkable. And today we have a remarkable guest who's also been a Barbie role model.

3:04Her name is Chika Oriwa. She's a remarkable person. She has a background in medicine. She was one out of 259 students who's black in the University of Toronto Medical School. And she's an activist, a poet, and just kind of is outstanding in everything, basically. So that's why she's on our podcast. So Chico, welcome to Remarkable People. Thank you for having me here, Guy. And thank you for that introduction. I'm so honored. I think the honor is mine. But yeah, we won't go there. So I have a question for you, one author to another, because I've authored 16 books. And one of the hardest things, if not the hardest thing about writing a book, is figuring out the title, right?

3:52So I just want to know, having read your book, did you ever consider calling your book even you as opposed to what you did call your book? So the origin story of the title is very interesting because when I was finishing writing up the book Proposal, which I'm sure you're very familiar with and getting that big, massive document of the outline and the pitch and everything, I needed a title in order to submit it to the publisher. And I was like, oh, I don't know what to put. Unlike the rest, I thought it was just going to be a placeholder. But then my agent loved it. My husband was like, this is a great title.

4:30And I was like, yeah, OK, we'll just keep it there for now. But as I actually went to write the book, that phrase, even you, it was one of the most resonant, I would say, that it resonated with me, but it also resonated with a lot of the readers when they ended up also reading it. But I think if there was an alternate title I would give the book, it would probably be Especially Me, which is the line that follows Even You in, I believe it's chapter three, towards the end of it, where I say Even Me and then I think Especially Me. And I think I want that to encapsulate truly what I'm trying to drive home with this book is that we get to define what our greatness is.

5:17We get to define what our story is. And I don't want anyone to ever try and take away that ownership or to challenge that. As I read your book, I said, wow, this incident at the American-Canadian border. I'll give a little bit of background for the listeners who are wondering, what the hell are these two people talking about? In about 2000 and I think 13, Chica was in a car with three other girls and they had just finished some academic work and they were going from Toronto to Buffalo on a shopping spree. And at the American border, the American immigration agent was asking them why they're going to America.

5:55And they were explaining what their background was and they're medical school students and they're on the way to celebrate it. And they're going to Buffalo for shopping. And when the guard came to Chica in the car, they explained that she's going to be a doctor too. And he said something like, even you, in other words, even you, a black girl, you could be a doctor. Did I get that story right? Yes. So with the minor tweakment of the detail that I actually don't think I mentioned this in the book, but alongside me in the car were two of my friends who were of Chinese descent. And then one of my friends was Guyanese.

6:32And so we were all women of color. And I think that actually brings in an even more interesting analysis because we were all women of color. However, I was singled out and I was the only black individual in the car. And he said, even you, when we had clearly stated what our ambitions were and how it was that we knew each other, because he has had you guys know each other. We were all undergraduate students at McMaster University in our health sciences program. We all wanted to be doctors. And so that reflexive questioning of this dream that I've held since I was three years old, in that moment, I was indignant.

7:06But I was also a bit scared because this was an authority figure. And so I didn't know how to appropriately measure out and weigh my indignation against what I was taught, which is also always to be very calm and docile in the presence of authority. So are you telling me that even in Canada, Black parents have the talk with their kids? Absolutely. I think because this understanding of the systems of racism are not limited to the American border. This is a ubiquitous, universal experience. When we talk about anti-Blackness, we see it in a global sense. And so when my parents came from Nigeria to Canada in the 1980s, they experienced that racialization, they experienced that anti-Blackness.

7:59And so for my parents, it was never really this sit down talk of this is what you're going to go through. It was sprinkled throughout different conversations. It was always a touch point of you have to behave in this certain way or else certain things can happen to you. And really, and I talk about this a lot in my book, Unlike the Rest, where I say that my father and his experiences navigating his career as a pharmaceutical technician, as a nurse, and how anti-Blackness impacted him, that when he was trying to spirit me along on this journey of medicine, he always beat into me this humility that in his mind was the way for me to be able to survive a system that also had anti-Blackness in it.

8:43But then the unfortunate outcome was actually trying to make me smaller, to make me less identifiable in certain ways, to really try and erase all the parts of my identity that I thought that I now know is beautiful, but to him was a bullseye. So it was always an ever present theme throughout my life. Wow. So at this point in your career, have you reached a level of accomplishment where you are simply a great doctor or a great writer or a great poet? And you know what, it's not that she's the Black person there in the room. She's just fully accomplished. Have you reached that point or do you think that point is reachable in this society?

9:27So that's a really interesting question, because I think that with writing this book, especially, I have viewed it as my biggest act of liberation. And what I mean by that is that I feel that once certain individuals, especially Black people, Black women, once we reach a certain level of accomplishment and success, that sometimes all it is that we are recognized for is how it is that we can contribute, say, for example, from an EDI perspective or from certain perspectives where our Blackness is at the forefront. And that is something that is always going to be so vital and critical to who I am, but I don't want it to be the sole way in which I'm defined.

10:10And so I felt that for a long time, I was seen in almost this one dimensional analysis of my personality, of my skills, of my talents. And so writing this book for me was in many ways liberating such that I can be seen in the fullness of who it is that I am, the fullness of my humanity, a three-dimensional analysis. Yes, I will always be so exceptionally proud of being a Black woman, and that is something I take pride in. However, I am also a doctor. I'm also a writer. I am a mother. I'm a public speaker. I'm a performer. I'm an author. There's all of these things that I am and the fullness of that is what I want to be celebrated.

10:52Don't take this wrong, but if I were a racist white person, you would be my greatest fear. I don't take that wrong because I am so aware of that. I think that our society, a, an empowered woman is something that terrifies our society. And I don't think we need to look far to see an example of just how afraid our society can get when a woman is audacious and loud and intelligent and successful and all of the different things. But when you layer on top of that, a racialized woman, a Black woman, again, we needn't look far to see an example of this. But when you bring in these different intersections, I can see that inherently individuals are intimidated because I create and I'm aware of this.

11:45I know that there is this creation of this cognitive dissonance. Our understanding, or at least the way in which black people have been socialized, the way in which the perceptions of black people have been embedded into our culture is that we are supposed to be less intelligent. Women are supposed to be less intelligent, less accomplished, that African individuals, again, there is all of these incredibly racist stereotypes about the intelligence of Black women, especially. So then when I show up or when other incredibly intelligent Black women show up, like Lovie as well, and we challenge this idea, this long held idea, it creates this cognitive dissonance.

12:24And so some of the ways in which this is reconciled is through that fear. It's through that anger, because usually you are afraid of things or you're angered by things that you don't understand. And so I know that I evoke that emotion. And it's something that I've had to contend with for a long time. I can guess the answer to this question, but I bet you were even more disappointed than I was that Kamala Harris lost the election. We have one of the most qualified candidates against one of the least qualified candidates and she loses. And I just don't get it. Yeah, I was devastated. And I think, you know, it's interesting because the American political system is very fascinating because it feels like the whole world holds its breath until we know what's happening.

13:11And I think for so many reasons, it's understandable, especially as a Canadian. I mean, we are literally geographically so close, but even culturally and so many of the other ways in which we are reactionary or we respond in very similar ways to what happens in the States. And so very much, I felt that a lot of Canadians and a lot of individuals worldwide were taken aback, were disappointed, devastated. I struggled immensely on that morning of the election results when it was declared who had won. And it was really devastating, as I'm sure as it was for all for a lot of Americans and for you as well.

13:49So, yeah.

14:02So can we back up for a second and just tell us the story of you figuring out that of 259 students in the entering class at the University of Toronto Medical School, you are the only Black one. So what was that like? To take you back to that exact moment, I would have to give a little bit of a preamble because I had gone into it with such significant expectation. I had just finished my undergraduate program at McMaster University in Hamilton, which is a stone's throw from Toronto. And I was the only Black student in my graduating class in 2015 for my undergraduate program at Mac. And out of the medical schools that I'd gotten into, U of T was the only school that had a Black Medical Students Association.

14:52And so amongst all of the reasons of why I wanted to go to the University of Toronto. It was close to home. It's an incredibly prestigious medical institution. And it had this Black Medical Association. I just felt that I was going to deviate from that narrative of being the only Black student. And so when I arrived on the morning of my stethoscope ceremony day, and I looked around and I saw that I didn't really see any other Black students, I thought, maybe they just haven't shown up yet. It's orientation week. It's not really the first full week of school. And so when we got to the actual stethoscope ceremony and they were calling every single student across the stage one by one, and my last name starts with an O.

15:35And so I was fairly further on down in the alphabet. And I remember crossing the stage and thinking, I still have not seen any other Black people. And then coming off the stage and sitting in the seat of the auditorium and then seeing everyone else go by and thinking, oh my gosh, as I'm holding this Hippocratic Oath and we're reciting it and I'm thinking in the back of my head, there are no other Black people in my class. 259 students in 2016 in downtown Toronto, the most culturally diverse city in this country, one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world. It was absolutely heartbreaking, I would say, but also a disillusionment.

16:17I was stunned by it, simply stunned. I read in your book, you faced various kinds of racism. And so perhaps you can explain to people, because obviously I'm not Black, so I haven't experienced what you experienced, but from that patient who said, get all the non-doctors out of this room and said, this Black woman, she can't be a doctor, get her out of this room. And some of the interactions you had with your teachers, just explain what kind of racism you encountered. And also, for each kind of racism, what should you do? The way that I like to break down the different kinds of racism. So there's things known as microaggressions, which are your daily racial slights, racial grievances that on the surface, maybe to a desensitized ear, you might not even recognize that it could be something that's racially aggressive.

17:13Case in point, whenever I would meet a patient or another medical student, and I was always frequently asked, where were you born? Are you Canadian? Are you used to the winters? It was just a constant assertion and the assumption that I was not of Canadian origin, that I could not have been born. I must have been born elsewhere. So it was this gatekeeping of the Canadian identity that constantly made me have to explain myself even at the outset of a medical encounter. And then on the opposite side of that are more macro aggressive, more intensely obvious, I guess you could say racial grievances, where it was a direct challenging of my intelligence, my capacity, my ability to actually be a doctor.

17:59So as you mentioned, having a patient who had directly said that I had to leave the room because I didn't look like a doctor, even though being repeatedly told that I was a part of the medical team and then still the patient actually growing more agitated, growing more aggressive because they did not want me in the room. And bearing in mind that I did not have any training as to how I was supposed to de-escalate that situation, how I was supposed to encounter that situation. Although I had specifically asked for that training prior to my clerkship years and These kinds of experiences, it really permeated my medical education, which was an exemplary medical education at the University of Toronto.

18:41However, I was still facing it from so many different angles. So from patients, sometimes from my attendings, from other medical students. And then when I eventually did my public facing advocacy, then facing it from the public, which was just an entirely different beast unto itself. Now, going back to that incident where that patient asked you to or told you to get out of the room, as I recall, you left the room and you were in tears. And then it was like a very traumatic, tearful thing. But looking back, should you have just stood your ground and confronted him and taken him on? Or what would you do today if that happened?

19:23So I would say that, firstly, I want to hold grace for where I was in my journey as a medical student, and not necessarily having had the tools or the understanding or the insight into what to do in that moment. And so I did leave the room tearfully, I truly did not know what I was supposed to do alternatively. Interestingly, I mentioned in the book that one of the older fellows, medical fellows, had came out afterwards and said, you should have stayed in the room. That's what you were supposed to do. And I think, as I said, I give myself grace for where I was in that journey. Now, having my MD, being a doctor, being a resident doctor, if I was in that same situation, what I would do is I would likely stay in the room.

20:10I would likely reaffirm to them and reassure them that I am a physician. I'm part of the medical team. I am here to help you. And of course, if the patient gets increasingly agitated, I would then employ the skills that I've since learned as to how to deescalate that situation. I also think it helps when institutions, when hospitals have policies that we can actually reflect back to the patient. So this is a teaching hospital and in a teaching hospital, you have to be seen by the practitioner who is available. And that would be myself. And if it got to the point where I felt that my safety was actually in peril or that I was about to be physically harmed, of course, I would go and get the appropriate resources, the help that's around there as well.

20:53But I think where I am now is very different than where I was then all those years ago. You are clearly a better person than I am. There's no question about that. I don't know if I would have done that. I can think of a lot of things, but grace would not be the top of mind for me in that situation. So you became active after a decision to turn them down, but you changed your mind for the Black Student Application Program. Could you just explain that to me? Because this was something to increase the recruitment of Black students to your medical school. And I think it went from one out of 259 to 14 a year later or two years later, right?

21:40So now, what exactly, because you made a very clear point that even if you did this Black student application program, the academic rigors were the same. So what did the program do? What was the goal? So the goal, in a nutshell, was to increase the number of Black applicants applying into the MD stream at the University of Toronto. And what it aimed to do was to ameliorate some of the biases that were inherent within the application program system. And so what they did is that they required that the applicant write an additional essay. So the way that U of T usually works for its stream to apply to medical school is that it requires you to write a series of short essays.

22:27About eight was what I had to write when I applied to medical school. And so for this stream, they required you to answer an additional question. Now, I'm unsure if that exact question has changed over the years, but what it was back then, which is why did you feel it was important for you to apply through this Black student application stream? And how is it that your identity may impact your medical training and things such as that? And that was incorporated. But then it was also incorporated that a Black file reviewer or a member of the Black community, Black academic community, Black medical community would be involved in reviewing your application as well as the actual interviewing process.

23:06Now, that was very different for me because when I was in the process of applying to medical school, I actually vividly remember the day of my U of T medical interview, which I talk about, I write about in the book, where I enter and it's just a sea of medical school candidates. And of course, the anxiety and the sweat is like palpable in the air. And I walk in and there's no other Black applicants. There were no Black invigilators. There were no Black interviewers either, as you went from station to station. And there's about four stations, 12 minutes per station. And so when you're going into these spaces and nobody looks like you, you're naturally going to just be aware of that.

23:51At least for myself, I was naturally attuned to that, especially having been in so many places before where I was the only Black student. And so what a difference it makes to actually be able to alleviate some of the implicit bias that can be present within this system. And that's what the Black Student Application Program aimed to do and continues to do and has made a significant impact in the educational environment, not just for the Black students, but for all students. The diversity of thought, the diversity of lived experience, the diversity of culture enriches the educational and the medical educational environment for everyone.

24:30And do you think that some of the students are still thinking, oh, this is a Black student, so it was less academically rigorous. There's a quota system. It's unfair. It's reverse discrimination. You think that still happens there? I am sure that there are individuals who may question whether or not another Black student had merited their spot. I think that is, again, a vestige of racism. And I know that as I was in medical school, I was fielding that remark constantly, constant questioning, even on my very first day of medical school, day one, just the morning before my stethoscope ceremony, someone asking me, did they make it easier for you to get in here?

25:15Did you need lower grades? You're the only Black student. So did they do something to make it easier for you? That was before BSAP was even instituted. And so I am sure that there may be individuals out there who are thinking these thoughts, who are feeling these thoughts, because these are the thoughts that have preexisted the BSAP program. However, I can assure you that intelligence, the tenacity, the ambition of these students, of these Black students going through, it will rival any other student who was there, any other student. And I just actually gave the convocation keynote for the class of 2024, And this was the largest class of Black medical students in Canadian history that came into the University of Toronto.

26:00And they had just graduated this past year. And guess what? The number two student out of the 260 students that got the second highest grades across all four years was a Black woman. And I think that that stands as a brilliant example of the fact that we are not diluting the collective intelligence of the class. No, no, no, no, no. These are the students who we would have lost to the American schools. And this is true. I actually, when I was doing my first year of mentorship for the BSAP program, so when I was still a second year medical student, talking to these other students, encouraging them to apply through BSAP, many of them were saying, I got a scholarship to Yale.

26:45I have a scholarship to Northwestern. I have a scholarship to these places in the States that have already been doing these kinds of programs and systems encouraging Black medical students to apply or Black students to apply to their medical school. So we were going to lose them when, in fact, now we are retaining them. We are retaining this talent, the brain drain. We're slowing it down. And so I don't agree at all with anyone who questions the intelligence of Black medical students. Well, just to set the record straight, didn't you become the valedictorian of your class? I was elected, I was selected by my class to be the valedictorian of my class.

27:25And that is an honor that I wear with so much incredible pride and responsibility. And I write about this in the book as well, because it was almost ironic, because in literal definition, the valedictorian is supposed to reflect the class. So it was ironic because I was so different from the rest of my class. I think that it speaks and that like my being selected speaks to the transcendence of the work that I was trying to accomplish, the transcendence of who it is that I am and what I embody, which is truly embracing your audaciously authentic spirit, embracing what it means to be a physician, what it means to be an astute medical student, someone who genuinely cares for other individuals, these things are transcendent.

28:14And I'm really so grateful that my class appreciated that and saw that and that I was able to have that incredible opportunity. Speaking of transcendent, I am asking you now to tell the story of your interview. And when you were in the interview and you're prepared for every possible question, And except when you opened the door and told the interviewer that you participate in slam poetry and he asked you to recite a poem. I must say, I've never heard of that in any application interview. So please tell that story. Absolutely. I feel like most people can relate to that experience when you're entering into an interview.