Dancing Through Barriers: Yamilée Toussaint's STEM Revolution

0:00From October 7th to 9th in San Francisco, the Masters of Scale Summit returns. It's where the boldest minds in business, tech, and beyond gather to build the future. And we want you to join us. Hear from the CEO of the New York Times, scientists using cutting-edge technology to find cures, the leader of crypto powerhouse Coinbase, a retired four-star general, and many, many more. They're all on the same stage, and it's not just another conference. It is the gathering for remarkable people. Apply to attend at mastersofscale.com slash remarkable. That's mastersofscale.com slash remarkable. We're saying like STEM can actually be creative.

0:43It could actually be something that you incorporate to things that you like actually want to do yourself. It can be something that is team oriented. It can be something that you could do while you're moving. And by really changing the connotation they have with STEM, we're helping them to, again, stay in it. say yes to it because that's what we need to for them to persist and as they continue to persist we can show them more advanced concepts they can go to other programs be part of other things but really we want to use dance to really show them what's possible what they're capable of and we've seen amazing results because of it

1:23i'm guy kawasaki and this is the remarkable people podcast and as you know we're on a mission to make you remarkable. So we scan the world looking for remarkable people who can inspire all of us. And guess what? We found a very remarkable person. Her name is Yamale Toussaint. I hope I got that right. Yes, you did. I speak three languages. I speak English, pigeon and french now so she is the creator of an organization called stem from dance and we will get into what that organization does she's also 2024 cnn hero which is how we found out about her because i don't know i must be on some cnn email listen like they send this announcement of these are our heroes for 2024 and we look at that we say we gotta get her we gotta get her before npr targets are sold.

2:23I hope we did. So with no further ado, here is Yamale Toussaint. Say hello. Hi, so happy to be with you today. I am so happy you are here with us today. First easy question for you is you have a degree from MIT in mechanical engineering, right? When When you first got to MIT and you started taking these mechanical engineering classes, how many women were in the class or what percentage of women were in those classes? Yes. At the time I was there across the Institute, it was about 50-50 representation. However, in mechanical engineering, that's where you see a drop off in women being enrolled. and then when you look at black women there were just two of us in my major my year how many people were in that major hundreds maybe about 200 or so so one percent right recently we interviewed a woman she was the only black woman or maybe even the only woman not only black woman in her medical school class and it was like a shocking revelation to her how did you get so far in this technical subject that others didn't i reflect on that question a lot because i didn't feel like i would be that one percent i just felt like i really loved math and science i drew a lot of inspiration from my father.

4:06He was a mechanical engineer. I got to go to work with him a couple times and the atmosphere of being surrounded by like 3D drawings and manufacturing and factories like that was familiar to me. And I also got a lot of joy as a child from dancing and playing the violin. And I do think that in the times when taking physics and calculus felt tough, there was this sort of resilience that I feel like I brought to those classes because I've seen myself do hard things. Dance is very challenging. And I did it from four years old up until parent day. And I think some of the confidence, the resilience, the persistence, the discipline that I gained as a dancer and a violinist really helped to stick with it when the going got tough.

5:07Being looking around the room in my engineering classes and not seeing myself reflected and having that doubt, I feel like I had the legacy of my father and just like that confidence that I built in other spaces to really help me get through. Now, you cite in many of your interviews that by around the age of eight, girls drop out of math. Why is that? What social or educational or I don't know, whatever kind of pressure makes them drop out of math by the young age of eight? There are messages that are pervasive in society that say that girls are less likely to become an engineer, a mathematician, etc.

5:56And they get those messages from, it may be adults in their lives, who may subtly suggest that it's the boy in the family who's more likely to build a tower or break down this truck. Or maybe it's in the shows that they watch and who's represented it as a scientist or the leader in the room. And even the toys that they get. I know something I remember from my childhood, I have an older brother and my father made sure that whenever my brother got a truck, I got a truck too. And, but that's not always the case. Sometimes there's toys that are considered like girl toys and boy toys. And it's often the boy toys that are more engineering oriented that builds spatial awareness.

6:44It's really important for being able to think as an engineer. So there's all these messages that they get bombarded with and they start to internalize it and start to say that when they get to, let's say, a difficult math problem, you know, the thought is, oh, I must not be good at math. I must not be a math person. Instead of thinking, maybe I just need to try a little harder or ask for help. And so that's where we get to this place where girls just start to count themselves out so early on. And where did you go to elementary school? I grew up on Long Island, New York. So I went to a local elementary school, Smith Street Elementary School.

7:23And was that attitude there so that despite that attitude, your father and you overcame that? For sure. When I was a young girl, I found myself getting bored in class. and the teachers didn't really know what to do about that. They even told me to stop raising my hand because they weren't going to call on me because they knew that I knew the answer. And so I had to turn to other sources to get that kind of challenge. And I think that did a few things. One, it helped me to see that I had to count on more than what I was getting in school. Also just helped me to see, okay, there's something maybe a bit exceptional about what I'm able to like learn and absorb.

8:17And also that's where I did find some stimulation from the conversation I was having with my father. Again, like being able to go to work with him and not go to school was just such a treat. And then being exposed by things that were just beyond what I kind of felt bored at school, I think was maybe the beginning of starting to realize that I'm capable of more and things that are challenging. So let me go off on a little bit of a tangent here, because we have had several math professors on this podcast, and one of them is a very controversial one. Her name is Jo Bowler from Stanford. Maybe you've heard of her.

8:56And there's this controversy about teaching math is it's now a woke subject. And, you know, that because they're trying to create greater opportunities for girls and people of minorities to progress in math, that it's going to reduce the fast track for white boys so that they can get ahead. And there's all this like incorporating social justice in math is a bad thing. There's all this controversy. So do you have any opinions about this? What's going on? How did math become a woke subject? I became a math teacher after I graduated from MIT. So I wanted to learn more about the K-12 education system.

9:44And I specifically taught ninth grade algebra. And what happens is that algebra becomes this gateway course because it ends up determining the likelihood of graduation, of continuing on to do more advanced mathematics. And so I found myself as like a brand new teacher confronted with the reasons why math can be a barrier and a gate and why it's really powerful that all students really excel at that juncture. So like concepts that are important to understand conceptually, I think are just really critical in a young person's educational journey that if not taught well, those concepts don't quite land.

10:39And it makes it really hard to go on to do more things that are mathematical. And if you get stuck in math at ninth grade or even earlier, the chances of those students not continuing on to do things that are math oriented or STEM oriented start to diminish. So when it comes to girls, to people of color, it is really important that not be the barrier, that they can excel. And it takes really great teachers. It takes making math easier to understand. I personally found it so fun to teach algebra. I think there's a lot of interesting ways to make it relevant, but a lot of teachers don't do that.

11:24They just kind of teach equations and such. I do think that it is an important subject amongst others, but I have seen like myself, students, like their academic journey be stumped because of their challenge with math.

11:49So you mentioned that right after graduation from MIT, you became a teacher. This is Teach for America, right? That's right. So from the outside looking in, I think that is one of the more admirable organizations in America. So can you tell us like, how does Teach for America work? What was it like? I mean, MIT graduate, all of a sudden you're teaching teenagers algebra. You didn't get a master's in education, right? You went straight from undergraduate to teaching. Tell us about the Teach for America experience? Well, for me, it was transformational. And I will say that I believe that for my students, it was as well.

12:31When I was approaching graduation from MIT, I was really passionate about moving forward in my purpose. I didn't want to just get the job that was expected of me in my major. I didn't want to do anything besides what I felt like I was particularly positioned and designed to do. And I was inspired by going a social impact route. It's like, how can I apply engineering principles to solve social challenges that exist in the world? And there wasn't an easy pathway to explore that until I learned about Teach of America, because I could learn about the educational system, have an impact in the lives of students, and do it in a way that facilitated that transition from college.

13:21And we went through some training over the summer. And I know it was definitely difficult. I remember my first day stepping into a school building and I was fresh out of college. I wasn't that much older than my high school students. And I just spoke to the power of like a great teacher. I knew math very, very well. And I also knew how to make it relevant because I wasn't that far off from their age. Definitely a learning curve and figuring out how to manage a classroom and command that presence. But eventually, I was able to find that stride. I was able to build really great connections. I was able to take my class to a trip to Cambridge so they can visit Harvard and MIT, really run into their horizons and be the maybe only engineer that they have met.

14:10And not just met, they get to learn from me every day. So I think that was just a really special experience for my students. And for me, that is when I had the light bulb moment that led to me eventually starting Step From Dance because I got to see firsthand how much young people can just really dislike math and not just young people, I think adults too. I hear that all the time. Hey, I'm not a math person. Somebody else calculate this bill. There's like such an aversion to math. I think it was important for me to see it, experience it, hear it, to be able to think about what could that solution be to change how young people, especially young girls, experience math.

14:49And how long did you teach? I taught for two years and then I transitioned to working for the organization Teach for America. Tell me, how did the conversation go when you went to your parents and said, yeah, guys, I just graduated from MIT and well, I think I'll go teach in Brooklyn or something. I bet that went over. right they were very confused especially since they were fresh off of paying my tuition paid for the vast majority of my four-year tuition so they were confused as well as other family members again just like really wanting to work in my passion and nowadays they get it and they are very thrilled with the direction I headed in.

15:37It did happen, you know, they had to have a lot of faith in me and my judgment to be able to say, yes, go teach high school now. Was it a public school? It was. Okay, yeah. That's not exactly the path that Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg took, but okay. Now, tell me about this concept of the connection to dance and stem because for 70 year old asian man i'm not quite clear how dance translates into stem yes yes well there's so many ways where these two worlds coming together brings about a really beautiful outcome first like we discussed We know that at the root of the reason why there are so few women and women of color in STEM careers is because at a young age, we said eight years old, they count themselves out.

16:43And so that's what I wanted to create a solution for is how do we get them at this young age to stay in? And what dance allows is us to create an atmosphere where they don't feel shut out. We know that dance is a very common, popular activity for young girls. So we use what they are already interested in, already showing up to, already excited about to create a space where they can just laugh, move, connect, experience joy alongside STEM activities as well. So one of the activities they do with us is they make dance performances that incorporate aspects of STEM. So that could be, for example, costumes that light up where they're making the circuit, they're learning about electricity, they get to program the circuit to do certain effects, like for it to turn blue every time they stomp their left foot.

17:48And so they're learning engineering, computer science principles, but it's through the lens of dance and the hook of making a dance routine more interesting and fun and exciting by making it light up. And so there's other integrations that we do. So the use of dance, again, allows us to make an atmosphere where they want to walk into the door. I think our sweet spot is attracting girls who otherwise aren't showing up for robotics clubs. They're not going to the coding camp, but they're willing to come to STEMFM dance because there's dance involved. They can do something fun, creative, work in a team.

18:31And while they're doing that, we're teaching them about relevant technology. We have content that is starting to teach them about AI and how they can even integrate something like AI into dance. And so we're meeting them where they're at, having them do technical projects that involve dance. But then also using this as an opportunity to maybe just change the perception of STEM. Because they're like, have this hesitation and this resistance towards math, like even the word math or STEM. right we're giving it a rebrand we're saying like stem can actually be creative it could actually be something that you incorporate to things that you like actually want to do yourself it can be something that is team oriented it can be something that you could do while you're moving and by really changing the connotation they have with stem we're helping them to again like stay in it say yes to it because that's what we need to for them to persist and as they continue to persist.

19:31We can show them more advanced concepts. They can go to other programs, be part of other things. But really, we want to use dance to really show them what's possible, what they're capable of. And we've seen amazing results because of it. Is the entry point for STEM from dance your pop-ups? Is that how most people get exposed to it? So what happens when somebody shows up for a pop-up yes our pop-ups it's a one-day event in cities across the country where the girls can just show up for a day and again i love the times when the girl shows up who like maybe her mom made her show up and she's really hesitant about stem doesn't really want to do anything about stem especially on a saturday but when they show up they see the energy they see the positivity in the room to support the camaraderie and then they get to do like little experiments little activities with STEM with dance and we hope and we have seen that they walk away thinking huh that wasn't too bad maybe I want to do more of this maybe maybe I can take another step and come to another one or come to one of our camps have a club at their school a STEM from dance club.

20:48So that is the trajectory that we hope that they join us on. And in 2025, how do you now incorporate AI into STEM from Dance? Yeah, such an important question. Ultimately, we want to recruit and train the next generation of innovators. And we believe that girls and girls of color should be part of that next generation. So because of that, we want to make sure that they are equipped with the knowledge, the skills, the exposure to what will be relevant when they will enter the workforce. Given the rise of AI that is increasingly important, we are looking at ways to take our signature approach, which is to make complex concepts and technologies more relevant and easier to grasp for girls 8 to 18 years old.

21:45And so that's what we're doing with AI. We're looking at ways for them to tinker with AI tools to get comfortable with things like prompting, to understand the underlying technology, and as they get older, be able to advance in the level of complexity that they have exposure to. But also, it's because the field is emerging, there's a lot in education that we're still figuring out about what it takes to equip, again, an eight-year-old, a 10-year-old, a 13-year-old with what they need to know about AI. So we're continuing to learn, but it is such a huge area of emphasis because we want to make sure that our girls of color are part of the conversation at the table, part of those who are leading because we need their perspective in what's being developed right now.

22:34And how many girls have gone through your program already? It's about 4 ,000 and counting. I think what's exciting is that now that we are a larger organization, bigger team, more capacity, we're able to now accelerate the pace at which we are serving girls. So just this year alone, we're on track to serving over 1 ,000 girls and we're only growing from there. What's your financial model? Is it support from donations? Yes, largely we're supported through philanthropy. And essentially we can serve as many girls as the dollars that we raise. So a big part of making these experiences possible are the people and the companies and the institutions who have been investing in our mission over the years.

23:27At this rate, we're a multimillion dollar organization to be able to operate nationally and serve a thousand plus girls a year. So that could be the big part of what it takes to make this possible. I don't want to be a downer, but I got to ask this question. Are you dependent upon support from the U.S. government or Department of Education? At this moment, we are not, which I'm grateful for in this moment where there's a lot of uncertainty around that funding stream. We're mostly fueled by companies, foundations, and individuals who give towards our mission. And then we also have some ways that we're able to generate income from the programs.

24:08But about 95 % of our funding comes from institutions and individuals that are not from the government. And is there any fear that this kind of program, even done by a company, the company is afraid of being aligned with such a DEI kind of effort and will stop it just for the optics? Going back to the moment when I started Semperm Dance, it was because I had the lived experience of being one of the few Black women in a room and saw the opportunity for what people like me can add, not just to a classroom, like an engineering classroom, but to the field. And so that's why I started Zemroom Dance.

24:58I still believe that mission is important. No matter what anybody says about something like DEI, the mission is still needed and is important. And we will continue doing that work. I think companies, regardless of what's on their website or what their values are, need to pay attention to this part of the workforce, because it is these girls who have the ability to bring ideas that no one else will bring. And we know there's so much research about how much more innovative a teen is when it's diverse. And we need innovation. Like the need for innovation has not stopped. And so I think it's important that these companies really think about the full picture and what it means to support or not support the work that's happening in organizations like Stem From Dance, because we all need to work together to make sure that we have the solutions that we need for the future.

26:04how does one become a cnn hero do they just call you up one day and say yeah malay guess what you're a cnn how does that work well you have to be nominated somebody from our board nominated me and it's an open application on their website so anybody can nominate anybody And so they have a team who goes through all those nominations. I suppose my nominations arose to the top. They reached out and they did quite a bit of due diligence. so they were speaking to staff board constituents parents really to make sure that the work that i guess like i present is actually what takes place and that we're in good standing in all fronts a very detailed due diligence process and then i got the call to say you are officially a cnn hero and they came out to film the program in action which was like so cool to have the girls be part of that you know to be you know doing their thing but there's cameras around so it was really exciting for that i think they felt like they were cnn heroes as well and yeah it was just such a cool experience sounds like it's harder to be a cnn hero than a supreme card justice

27:28let's not get into that so now you're a cnn hero so when you get on the subway when you go to restaurants are you recognized are like people sending you drinks and are you getting all these kind of like bags from hermes and what's this work oh some of the things you mentioned i would love so folks can feel free to send those things my way i think yes i've had moments where people recognize me i feel like one of the coolest things has been the process of we had to get out the vote so that because they were going to select one hero to be seen in hero of the year. So in the process of letting people know and asking for people to vote for me, I was able to come across like my first grade teacher.

28:16She was voting for me. People like spotted me from like high school who I haven't seen since high school. And it was just like the MIT network posted about it, Teacher America. It was really cool to see like all these people just rise up to support me. And now I feel like there's so many more people who know about Stem from Dance. I even got a message from somebody in Mexico that they watched. I got such a sweet package from a teacher in upstate New York whose students watched the CNN Tarot segment. and they wrote me letters about what it meant for them to see me on there. So those have been the things that have been really meaningful coming from the experience.

29:05Madison and I, I don't know if we have or we will, but we're going to send you socks. Yes, you sent them. It'll be a spirit and hero. Yes. Thank you so much. So tell me something. So let's suppose that I'm like a 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 year old black girl that I'm listening to this podcast, although God knows how I got to them. But anyway, so let's just fantasize that they're listening to my podcast. And I want you to give them advice for life. Now that you're out of MIT, you've been a teacher for two years, you've started this successful thing, you're CNN hero, et cetera, et cetera. So there's this 8, 9, 10, 11, 12-year-old black girl listening to this podcast.

29:53And she's saying, all right, this is my hero. Now, what should I do?

30:01I'd first say what I wish I was told when I was young, which is to embrace what makes you unique. I remember feeling at a point like maybe I was at a disadvantage because I dance I play the violin I was into math I was I just felt like my tension was divided and how unusual it is to like be a dancer but then also go to MIT and I'm just feeling like I was just like going in these different directions and what I eventually realized is that all of these different parts of me made me unique and positioned me to do something that like most other people wouldn't. And so I just would love to encourage your young listeners to not be afraid of those things that make them unique because that's where their power can come from.

31:04That's also where like a lot of my confidence came from to be able to endure these really hard experiences like MIT, starting a new business, trying to grow a business. It's like a lot of that confidence came from knowing that I do have something unique to offer. And as you look back in your life, who were your greatest influences that you mentioned your father, but were there other people like the first grade teacher or how did we get to this place beside your father and mother? I described earlier how when I was young, I was bored in school. A bright spot, however, was a teacher named Mr. Herman.

31:47He led a small group of us that was called More Able Learners. So it was meant to be a gifted and talented program. And I got to go every Wednesday after lunch. And it was always the highlight of my week because that was a space where I felt like I really could be me. I didn't have to restrain myself and not raise my hand. He did different challenges with us. We had a book contest and I read all the books. And that's where we did some more science-oriented things. I don't remember the details of what we did in that room. I just remember feeling like I am somebody that has good thoughts and is capable of being challenged.

32:32And I am somebody that is like intelligent and capable, even though I didn't always feel that way in my classes. And I just am so grateful for that teacher because it shaped my identity as somebody who is capable of difficult thing. So the thought that, oh, I could apply to top engineering programs in the country that thought that confidence to do that. I think it started with that identity that was formed at that age. So I would say that was an important influence. We have interviewed about 260 people now and lots of people talk about like this elementary school teacher. And that's true for me too there was an elementary school teacher that absolutely changed the arc of my life and if you're a teacher listening to this podcast i hope you understand that there are people like yamilay people like me that we really owe a great debt to you and i just want to thank all of the teachers who are listening to this yes it's so true teachers play such a critical role it's so unfortunate that we don't give them the flowers and the credit and the pay that they deserve.

33:50And I'd say what you just said is part of my thinking and wanting to create Send From Dance because there are many schools in this country where students don't have access to excellent teachers, that teacher that pushes you, that sort of sees that talent, that knows their content and like at an expert level. And my hope, like even one of the new programs we just launched, we call it our clubs. It is equipping these teachers with the activities and the training to be able to bring this STEM dance integrated experience to their classroom. So we offer it at no cost to the teacher. They get to now like host a STEM dance club in their school because sometimes the interest and the passion is there, but they just don't know how.