Dr. Pamela Ellis: Navigating the College Admissions Journey

0:00From October 7th to 9th in San Francisco, the Masters of Scale Summit returns. It's where the boldest minds in business, tech, and beyond gather to build the future. And we want you to join us. Hear from the CEO of the New York Times, scientists using cutting-edge technology to find cures, the leader of crypto powerhouse Coinbase, a retired four-star general, and many, many more. They're all on the same stage, and it's not just another conference. It is the gathering for remarkable people. Apply to attend at mastersofscale.com slash remarkable. That's mastersofscale.com slash remarkable.

0:48I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. We are on a mission to make you remarkable. And helping me today is Pamela Ellis. She is an education trailblazer who empowers students to achieve their college dreams. As the founder of Compass College Advisory, Pamela has helped over 500 students gain acceptance to their top choice colleges. And those students have earned over$35 million in scholarships. Pamela overcame her own challenges to become the first in her family to graduate high school and college. Her mother finished 8th grade and her father 10th grade. Yet Pamela earned degrees from Stanford, Dartmouth, and Stanford School of Education.

1:39Her life's work is motivated by her family's story and her own journey as a first-generation student. Pamela is the author of What to Know Before They Go, College Edition. She is a leading voice on preparing students for college success. Through her popular Keep Calm for Mom show, she provides guidance with grace and ease. Pamela Ellis exemplifies the power of education to transform lives by empowering students to pursue their dreams. She helps create a more just and equitable society. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And now, here is the remarkable Pamela Ellis. is college necessary anymore?

2:28And by that, I want to get really specific and I'll give you a little back channel story. A lot of, shall I say, white billionaires are saying college isn't necessary. You can take this course at Google University, blah, blah, blah, and you get a job and all that. On the other hand, we've interviewed quite a few people who come from very like homeless background, crack addict parents lives in the projects and they have a completely different story that if you don't have a college education because of how people view them they're stuck and so college education is a ticket out of that situation that white people don't have to get out of so with with all that background i was like what's your take on this is college necessary It is for what you shared earlier in terms of for particular people with backgrounds that are less privileged and really seeking to go beyond and reach that next level.

3:37It is necessary. And I was one of those people. I grew up in a project, and if it wasn't for a teacher recommending me to program for gifted students, I don't know where I would be today. Because my parents hadn't gone to college and didn't know what that was like. My mother actually was a sharecropper, and she finished eighth grade, and my dad finished tenth grade. And so they had no idea of college and me actually pursuing college. That wasn't even a thought. And so for people who come from a more humble background, yes, indeed. And perhaps entrepreneurship would be the next way. But I do believe that it is still necessary, especially for people of color, people from less privileged backgrounds.

4:39Typically, the person saying college isn't necessary anymore is a white male billionaire. Just random sample, right? Yes, a very random sample. You're in the business of helping people find the right school. I got that right, right? Yes, that's right. Okay. So what exactly does a match mean? Oh, wow. That's a great question. I'm glad you started there. A match is really about those colleges where that student is most likely to thrive and complete in four years. and there are dozens of colleges that can support them with doing that, but those are the matches that we are making. And sometimes students can't just go and look at a top 10 list to determine that match.

5:41It's a bit more comprehensive than that. And it always starts with the student in terms of who they are. And so we have five factors that we look at in terms of who that student is and then applying that to the colleges to make a match. But it's really where they will have the best chance of thriving and completing in four years. And what are those five parameters? The first factor is academic. What is it that student is interested in learning and how do they learn and what type of support academically for them to be successful? So that would be the academic fit. The second factor is social. And social is really about what are those ways that they make friends and really thinking about that aspect of their experience.

6:44So do they make friends through a sport? Do they make friends through particular types of clubs? What are those social interests? The third factor of fit is financial. Colleges do want it to be affordable. And there are aspects of affordability that can support that student with being successful in college. And so we look at the financial factor. The fourth factor of fit is vocational. What it is that that child is interested in doing after college. Sometimes they know, sometimes they don't, but there are colleges that can support them either way. And then the fifth factor of fit is cultural. However, that student may be different from the majority of students on that campus, whatever campus it is.

7:38And when you look at it in terms of the colleges for that cultural fit, they want a place where they can be celebrated and not tolerated. So those are the five factors. And so we always start with the student in terms of applying them and then lay that against the colleges that are out there. and do you ever have come to Jesus conversations where you say to the student oh honey you don't want to go to the university of I don't know X Alabama I do I do it depends on that student and part of my role is to help them with making that evaluation and understanding it So I may have a student who says they are interested in a college because of the location.

8:34But once they really start to learn about it and see some other things about it, it's like, no, that's really not a fit. And one of the things that I do in terms of helping them with that is rather than just saying it out, Guy, because especially teens, they may have a little bit of a backlash. So rather than like us, I know not like us at all. And so rather than just saying it outright, I will say, how about you research that college, I want you to research it first. And they use the same framework for researching all the colleges so that they can compare apples to apples. So I asked them to research it first.

9:21And once they research it, the way I outline it for them, they usually come to that conclusion without me saying it. And do you think a site like, is it, I don't know how you pronounce it, but it's S-C-O-I-R, where you put in your parameters and it says, these are the colleges that might be good for you. Do those sites work or are they too simplistic? You know something, they don't work as effectively because oftentimes the parameters that students are inputting are superficial. and if you're living in the Midwest and you work on your applications in the fall, of course you're looking at Florida.

10:04You know what I mean? You're looking at all the warm places and that doesn't make sense but a lot of times that's the way teens come up with their list. It's the location, it's where their friends are going, sometimes it's just where their parents say they're going to go because of the tuition. Well, you brought up the F word, so I'm going to go down that path here. So like today, would you be talking to students and saying, wow, you know, in Florida, they're not going to have a good black history program. Your reproductive rights are going to be limited and blah, blah, blah. Would you like downplay Florida or Texas today?

10:46Or is that too simplistic? I wouldn't, because it really depends on that student. Perhaps they have a legacy consideration at a college in Florida or Texas. There is some family there. Any host of reasons, perhaps there's a program there that is a great fit for them. And it's all of those other factors that still make it an amazing place where they can thrive. However, it happens to be located in a state that has politics that they may not agree with. And so I wouldn't arbitrarily take it off their list. And for every student, I always say at the end of the day, you want to revisit that school once you know you've been admitted.

11:34Do the admitted student visit. And that's going to tell you everything you need to know in that visit. And so I don't want to shortchange their list because of that, because there could still be reasons that it's a great fit for them. so you're dealing with these 17 18 year olds and i can't even remember when i was 17 or 18 but i'm pretty sure that i wasn't thinking very clearly or long term right and so how do you you know like this person says yeah i love surfing i want to be in the sun i need to be close to the ocean blah blah blah and i think i want a small class because my high school had a big class and what What do they truly know at that point?

12:24In some cases, it's not a whole lot. And that's where we have a process in place to help them with having the right tools to make better decisions about it. So just like I mentioned earlier in terms of just having a way for them to research colleges and learn about them and providing that structure in our program helps them to make decisions better. And the truth of the matter is that, yes, they may be 17 or 18, but they also have parents who sometimes may be involved in it. And when they're going on their campus visits, their parents go along with them. And I give parents questions to ask. And they're just asking the same questions at every college.

13:16And that helps them to also provide a perspective for their teen and still allowing their teen to own the process. Because that's so important that the teen owns it. And I don't ever want parents to be so involved that they take that away from them because that's when it is going to be a lot more tarnished and they can't make decisions as effectively. But we give them all the tools to really help them with making a good decision, even at that age.

14:03I'm a parent of four kids and three of them are in college or two graduated. One's in college. One is applying right now. And I don't know how the hell you navigate between the kid and the parent because. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. There's a lot of dynamics there and it gets really personal. and especially when you're getting into the essay writing, every year I'm saying to parents, you've got to trust the process. And even though at times you want to interfere, you want to write that essay for them, every college admissions officer is going to know that you wrote it. And the other thing about it is I share with parents, if you write it, it's going to really break the trust that your teen has in you.

14:57And you don't want to do that senior year. Life is too short. They'll soon be gone off to college and you just don't want to taint that relationship and damage it in that way. It, yeah, it's a lot to manage sometimes because with each client comes three different relationships. And if there are any family dynamics that are happening, I see it all. I couldn't do your job. Let me ask you something. So I have been, I swear, on about 30 college tours, East Coast, West Coast, you name it. Right. From Providence to Honolulu. Yes. And we're all on this path to get this perfect or good match. But I got to tell you, and I hope some college admissions directors are listening to this.

15:51I swear to God, every college tour is the same. Everybody says, this is an institution that I really love being here. And the classes are reasonably sized. They have great access to professors. It's a very diverse student population. Nobody says, oh, the classes are too big. The food sucks. I can never get to the professor. I don't want you to think I'm going like whole hog against the college tours, but every college tour, they show, oh, this is our brand new theater and this is our brand new science building. And it's like about the buildings and stuff. And yeah, like I just talk me down from my diatribe against college tours.

16:42They're still valuable. And I have, gosh, I've visited over 500 of them. And yes, there are those similarities that you see and hear. And one of the things is still keeping it focused on your child and what is a fit for them. And I make sure that the student has some way to evaluate the college for themselves. And there are questions you can ask to really get beyond the optics of the buildings and the fact that it's such a beautiful campus and the weather is great on this day. The other thing, too, Guy, is I recommend that the parent does a different tour than the student if there are enough people there.

17:37and you'll be amazed at how depending on the tour guide that you have, you're going to hear something different than your child would. And I saw it all the time with my own kids because I would do those tours with them as well. And my oldest was visiting this college and when he finished the tour, we were talking about just what his thoughts were. And he was just like, It just doesn't seem like it's for me. You know, it's more for engineers and I'm not majoring in the engineer. That's because his tour guide was an engineer. I was on a tour with someone who was doing ultimate Frisbee, which is what he did.

18:24They were also in international relations. They had a totally different experience. And so when I finished the tour, I'm thinking this is a great place for him and I hope he applies. But he was not thinking that way at all. And he ended up not applying. Wait, so what do you tell kids to ask on the college tour? Oh, my goodness. Depending on that student, it's things like asking about their major interests, asking about faculty, like how accessible the faculty is, and really learning about what the freshman experience is like, because that's really in so many ways a make or break year in terms of them transitioning.

19:13And so those are some of the questions, really asking about what do people do on the weekends, finding out about that, and looking around the surrounding area to get a sense for what there is to do. Do they need a car if they're in that area? And I really look at just where that student is coming from. If you're in the Bay Area and you go to visit a college in Colorado, in Iowa, almost anywhere else, it's going to be a different type of setting altogether. And if you're used to being, you know, in Santa Cruz, access to the ocean, you're going to feel like every place else is landlocked. Even if it's in Chicago, that's not an ocean, that's a lake.

20:03It's just thinking about what is it going to be like to be there? And especially thinking about that transition. So in freshman year, and the other thing I always advise my students to do is to ask questions of a random student. So not a student that's a tour guide, because sometimes tour guides are paid or maybe tour guides have a script that they're reading from because you're not going to say, oh, we'll talk about that when we get to this building, because their script says that when you're in front of this building, you talk about this. When you go through the cafeteria, you talk about that.

20:42So I just say, ask a random student. I mean, someone who is not paid by the admissions office, they haven't volunteered, but stop them when you see them in the student union and ask them some questions because they're going to tell you the truth. Find out what happened freshman year with their roommate situation. Ask those kind of questions. What is the food really like? And especially if they're not local, if they're from another state finding out what did you do over Thanksgiving break. Yeah okay. And these U.S. News and Forbes and all these rankings. Yeah. Are they net negative? Do they cause more problems than they solve?

21:30Sometimes they do cause more problems just because for many students they use that as their guide to where they will apply. And the same for parents is if this college isn't on this list, you're not going to apply. And when that's the case for a family, let's say that hasn't, that's first generation, it may not help to put so much reliance on that. And I shouldn't just say first generation, but, you know, any. And I will just share a brief story with you guys. When I was getting ready to go to college, my family was like, you're going where? What? Where is that? And I was a little bit excited because I had found out about this college in a book.

22:24And I thought they're ranked. That's where I'm going to go. And in the spring, I'm telling people where I'm going to go? He's just like, is that in Connecticut? Where is that? And this was back in the eighties. And then my mother is like, I really want you to stay home. I grew up in Memphis and she's just like, you can get a car, you can work. You don't need to go that far away from home. And we took a Greyhound bus all the way out to California and we get there and she's just like, okay, you know, this is nice. And when she got ready to leave, she gave me$70. And I thought, man, this is good money.

23:05This is going to last me the whole school year. And then I get to the bookstore the next day and my books were$350 for the first quarter. And a week or two later, my mother calls me and she was like, baby, I was telling the doctor where you are in college. And he said, that's a good school. And I thought, okay, but yeah, that's how it was. And I was not encouraged to go that far because no one had heard of the school. And wait, what school is this that you're referring to? Your alma mater, Stanford. Because back then, no one knew that much about Stanford. and you've got into Stanford and your mother left you with 70 bucks 70 bucks 70 bucks and I thought that was good money because I didn't know that it would be that expensive and so yeah it was just really just not aware but the point is just that people hadn't heard of that college back then especially not where I live no one has really heard about it and I feel like Stanford really didn't get on the map until in some ways late 80s early 90s people started to really know the brand and you're seeing it on tv the super bowl was played at the stadium those kinds of things but no okay we have parallel lives so i too went to stanford yes and as i look back i have no idea how i got in except i was in the class of 72 and back then being asian american or japanese american it meant i was an oppressed minority so basically i got in because of affirmative action really and you know how like right now we take our kids and they go to five schools on the east coast five in Southern California.

25:13We'd go on 10 tours. I swear to God, like my college decision was I got into the University of Hawaii. I got into Occidental. I might've been president if I went to Occidental and I got into Stanford and I wanted to go to Occidental because I could have played football there or at least I thought I could. The coach calls me and all that, right? Yeah. And I say to my father, I'm going to go to Occidental. And he says, you're going to go to Occidental because you're going to play football. If I'm paying all that money, you're going to Stanford or you're going to go to UH for free. So guess what I picked?

25:50And I had never visited Stanford. I didn't go on a tour. I landed at SFO. I get in the van. The van takes you to your dorm at Stanford. And I said, holy shit, this is the promised land, baby. I was born for this. Yeah. I don't remember how much money they gave me, but it wasn't much north of$70. And the thing about it is when we got to campus, when we drove up, because we had made a stop, met with my sister, drove to campus. We drove along 280. And when we exited at Page Mill, we took a right turn and we saw the cows. And that was where Hewlett Packard offices were located. And I thought that was the campus.

26:42And so we were just looking around and I had a little pit in my stomach because I'm thinking this doesn't really look like a place where I want to live for four years. And so we finally got turned around and found the campus. But, yeah, it was really something to see. It was breathtaking. and I just had a lot of butterflies for sure being there. What years were you there? I was there 84 to 88 and then I went back in 2002. Oh you're a baby. Okay yeah yeah Yeah.

27:27It was certainly different to be back there as a grad student, because when I went back in 2002, I had three kids and I was in the School of Education PhD program and lived in Escondido Village. Oh, you did? And yeah. And I always thought grad students were creepy when I was an undergrad. And I became one of those creepy grad students going to events to get free meals. Enough reminiscing. So let's talk about the application process here. First of all, standardized testing. Standardized testing is going away more and more. And on one hand, you say, okay, that's good. It skews towards people who can afford tutoring and all that.

28:18On the other hand, you could also make a case that it's an equalizer, right? So what's your take on standardized testing? It's not going away anytime soon. I think that SAT and ACT, so College Board and ACT, are big businesses. And on paper, yes, colleges say that there are tests optional. and I still see colleges that in the last couple of years have gone back to requiring test scores and some where students are still submitting their scores and even though they are test optional, they look at the scores and they see and it's hard to unsee the scores. And so test optional just means you don't have to send them in, but if you do, we'll look at them.

29:11What I think it does, it makes it more complex in terms of it complicates whether or not you still take it. And if you do, whether or not you send the scores in. So it raises more questions than it answers now since 20, when so many more colleges went test optional. But there were already about a thousand colleges that were test optional even prior to COVID. And so I just feel it makes it harder for families to really know what to do. But it's still there. It's not going away because those companies are big businesses and they're doing everything they can to keep it. But in a sense, you answer the question because you're saying that it's not going away because it's big businesses.

30:03You're not saying it's not going away because they're useful and valuable. To me, it's bullshit. Just because it's a big business doesn't mean that's why it should remain. Yes, that's for sure. And I think that it can be helpful in some cases, because if a student hasn't done well in their math class, for example, and they can show that their math score on a test is a bit higher than you would think based on their grade, that can tell them something. So they can be helpful in that way. And they're not as valuable in terms of really predicting how well a student is going to perform academically in college, for what it's worth.

30:53And what about the, in my junior year summer, I went to Nicaragua and built to church and you know I spent two weeks in Nepal and all that these are the activities of rich white people going to third world countries in order to write a great essay like do admissions committees think that's like all bullshit and just ignore that now or I don't think they give as much credit to it as you would think they do and what I advise students to do is do what they enjoy doing do those things they care about, but not doing something for the sake of a college application. Now, let's go to the Supreme Court.

31:38Okay. Okay. So, first, explain, what the hell did they decide a few months back? What was that? What was that? That was a decision to say that you cannot consider race. And that's the way I see it. As simple as that. But the interpretation of it, I think, is going to be where we really see things happen. Because I feel like colleges are still going to do things in a way that benefits them. And so even with that decision being rendered, they have their own lawyers who are figuring out how do we still bring in the students that we want to bring in. What I don't understand is how can you say you want a diverse student body and be told it's illegal to consider race?

32:40Those two things are in conflict. How do you wrap your mind around that? I think that it's unclear for families in terms of what to do. And the way to go about it is to still apply to those colleges that are a fit, still continue to do the things that you would normally be doing anyway. I think at the end of the day, colleges are still in some cases going to be diverse regardless of that. I just think that it just sends such a strong signal from the court that they could even say something like that. Don't consider it, but diversity is important. Listen, I would be a hypocrite. There is no doubt in my mind that because I was Japanese American, I got into Stanford.

33:35None at all. So I cannot now say, okay, now that I've arrived, you don't need to consider race. Like Clarence Thomas would be flying on Southwest Airlines eating peanuts because he's a public defender if it wasn't for affirmative action, right? Yeah. So now I just don't know how to understand this. To me, and I don't know if my Asian American friends and family are going to agree with this, but my perspective is back in the 70s, it was a penalty to be Japanese American. And affirmative action helped right that wrong. But now it's not a problem to be Japanese American. So our time has passed. And now we should pass on this benefit to other people who need help.

34:26But that does not seem to be a popular way of looking at things. Right. I'm just pausing in terms of thinking about how does that applied to me as a Black woman and living in an underserved community is it that I could not have gone to the colleges that I attended, the universities, if not for my color. And kind of hard-pressed to think that was the only way that I got in. And it doesn't mean that that couldn't played a role in part. Issue that I have is the belief that any time a person of color is admitted that it had to be because of that. Right. And I know that throughout high school, I worked really hard and I was student body president and all these other things.