Mary Murphy: Cultures of Growth

28:06What a company paid McKinsey to say. Exactly. Or we took our 50 top people and over two days, they crafted a mission statement and everybody got to put one word into it. And so finally, we came out with this mission statement, none of which we believe, but it just sounds good on an annual report. So I think another variable you could look at is not only to analyze the mission statement, but to determine from, I don't know, polls of employees, does this mission statement actually reflect the reality of this company? Because that's an important variable. Yes, yes, it absolutely is. And, you know, there is this debate among organizational culture people.

28:49Is culture what people say? Mission statements, websites, CEO messages, annual speeches that are being made. Or is it what we do? And I come down on the side that's about culture is really what's going on on the ground. And you have to really ask people on the ground to know the extent to which these organizational values and beliefs are actually widespread and are being used in their day-to-day interactions and their work. So in that same study that we analyzed these mission statements, we actually pulled other data, Glassdoor data, which is organizational surveys of people within the organization.

29:26And we look to see which parts of those data was predicted by the mindset culture described in the mission statements. And what was predicted was not everything. These companies are rated on benefits in HR. They're rated on whether they got good feedback. They were rated on culture. And what these mission statements mindset predicted was really that culture variable. And then when we dig in and we look at the extent to which the culture on the ground matches what people are saying and doing, it's mixed, right? There's going to be some places where the mission statement, and especially now people are listening to this podcast, they're going to know the right words to say in the mission statement, right?

30:06We're going to have to be more dubious of that now. And we have to get down on the ground. How are people evaluated? How are people brought in? How are people promoted? What are the ways in which people are actually investing in individuals? Patagonia, Dean Carter at Patagonia talks a lot about using this idea of regenerative agriculture practices within the organization. So many companies think of their people in this extractive way. What can I do to get the most out of people? The nice way to say it is we're an environment where you can be your best as if you're just going to magically just be your best yourself by yourself.

30:43And they really had this idea that they have to actually think about the soil and they have to be putting things back into their people, putting things back into the development and the potential of people. And so if you look at their practices and you look at how they actually implement that, that's where you see real culture of growth, policies and practices, norms and interactions. That's where I think the power of culture really is, not just in the mission statements. Okay. So now give us examples of some mission statements that whether they actually prove to be true or not, but from the outside looking in, you'd say, ah, that company gets it.

31:21They paid McKinsey extra to get a growth culture mission statement. Yeah. So, you know, the mission statements that we see talks about offering the highest growth potentials, emphasizing employees' motivation and their hard work, that we focus on results and we also focus on the process, right? You're going to be as happy with the process as you are with the results because we're really going to be paying attention to that process along the way. and we're going to make sure we hit those targets for you. It's an atmosphere that fosters a love for learning, passion, creativity, resourcefulness, and we are going to make sure you have everything you need to become the best version of you.

32:03So it talks about becoming rather than just an atmosphere of best instincts, best people, best ideas, right? That you have to be fully formed before you sort of arrive. And the truth is that we're all in a state of becoming, in a process of becoming. And the question is, is this going to be something that's supported by the environments we spend 50 % or more of our time and life in, or are we going to have to do that on the side for ourselves? I want you to know that every day I think about how I can help Madison become the best person she can be.

32:40I love that. That was a paid political announcement, and I approve of that advertising. That message.

32:50So let's say that you're a job hunter and you have found this mission statement and it ties in with Glassdoor. There's no sort of warning signs. And now you're talking to the company you're interviewing. What are the key messages that you pass along to prove to them, I'm a person you want to hire, I have the growth mindset and I'm looking for a growth culture? I think at that stage, a lot of people get this idea, this misconception that you have to trade off this idea of rigor and high performance, right? If you think about ability and performance, and then you think about mindset and you think about them as a grid, this like cross section, every company is going to want people who are high performers above the line, right?

33:36The question is, as an organization that's hiring, do you want someone who has a fixed mindset belief about their high level of skills and abilities? Someone who really thinks, listen, this is just what I'm good at. I'm the star at this. I've always been good at it. I'm a natural. It just comes easy. What happens when that person comes up against challenges or gets assigned to a new division and now has to master an entirely new product line, services, resources, right? What if now they get promoted and they have to manage people instead of being the best coder? Now they're managing a team of 15 coders, right?

34:12Do you want your person who's the top person who has the most ability and the most intelligence and talent, do you want them to have a fixed mindset of their ability or do you want them to have a growth mindset? And so now as a person who's sitting there interviewing for a job, a growth mindset individual is going to talk about their successes, but they're also going to talk about the ways and the challenges that they came across and what they did to overcome those challenges. Showing that I'm resourceful, I'm creative, I'm innovative, I'm motivated by those challenges. They don't stop me. In fact, here are the six different ways I got around the most challenging thing I ever encountered in my previous job.

34:50And I'm going to put that resourcefulness, that creativity, and that growth mindset to work in your company. And so they talk about the distance traveled, the journey taken in their own career. And you'll see that, recruiters will see that, that people are not afraid of talking about mistakes that have been made in their previous organization because they're also talking about how they were able to overcome those mistakes, learn and grow from them, and actually make an even better product, service, or outcome for the organization than existed before. I would say that anybody who's listening to this who's a former Terranos or Twitter employee should start off their interviews with, I worked at Terranos, I worked at Twitter.

35:33I understand cultures of geniuses, a culture of genius, and how destructive that is. And I now I've seen the light and I want to work for a company with a culture of growth that will help me be the best person I can be as opposed to Twitter or Terranos where I'm supposed to be a bona fide genius forever. That's right. That's right. And when you're in a culture of growth, you're not learning alone. The entire organization is tuned to learning and development. And from a leader perspective, it makes it less lonely. Not everything rests on my shoulders. I can actually have faith in my team that they're going to be proactively looking for ways to innovate, ways to try new things, ways to grow and develop our organization.

36:17And they're going to be good ideas in a culture of growth come from everywhere. And that's just a place that people thrive in. Okay. So now let's suppose that I am a director or a CEO of a company and I'm listening to this podcast and I'm having this religious experience about, holy shit, we got to stop this culture of genius. We got to get to this culture of growth. And they contact Mary or contact Carol and they say, we need help. What do we do? So what do you do? What do you do? Ironically, the first place to start is to get to know and normalize and get to working with your fixed mindset because we all have it within us.

36:58And the truth is that as growth mindset has permeated organizations and cultures, there's been this sort of idea that fixed mindset is not to be spoken of, not to be acknowledged, something to ignore. And actually there's power in understanding what are our fixed mindset triggers? What are the places, the situations, the context that I know on a regular basis move me towards my fixed mindset? And which ones are the contexts and situations that move me to my growth mindset? So the first place to start as a leader is to understand your own mindset triggers. We have in the book these four mindset triggers, evaluative situations, high effort situations, critical feedback, and the success of others.

37:40And which of these really move me more to my fixed mindset or my growth mindset. And then it's important as a leader to know the mindset triggers of those you lead. Those people that are direct reports, those people who are team leaders under you, which one are their mindset triggers? Because then you can, the next time you're giving an assignment that's going to be an evaluative situation, you've asked someone to write a report, you've asked someone to do a deck, you've asked someone to make a speech, you've asked someone to engage in a new client development process. They know they're going to be evaluated on that?

38:11If that's someone's fixed mindset trigger, how do you do that in a way that actually moves them towards growth? Now in that relationship, you've created a mini, a micro culture of growth in that relationship. If the success of others is someone's fixed mindset trigger, that every time you praise so-and-so on the team, you can see so-and-so cringe. They feel left out. They feel passed over. They wonder whether or not they're going to be as good as this other person who's being praised on the team or gets an award, right? Or a promotion or a bonus. How do you as a leader create that success of others and that praise practice in a way that actually moves everyone towards growth is inspirational rather than competitive?

38:54How do you actually help people understand the strategies and the approach that made that person successful that got the award? How is that unearthed and spread across the team so that now everyone can understand what are the right strategies and they can take them up in an authentic way that works for them. So that's the power of these culture creators, leaders, individuals who really exist in an organization and work with many other people across the context. How do we know when we're moving towards our fixed and growth mindset? What are these mindset triggers and how do we shape them to shift everyone towards growth?

39:31That's the first place. But what if you're working for an organization, you're not the CEO. And clearly it is a culture of genius organization. So can a micro culture of growth survive inside the macro culture of a culture of genius? Yes, it can. There are many examples of this. One example that I like to talk about is Melinda Gates at Microsoft, right? So Melinda became a leader within Microsoft, and she was struggling against the dominant culture of genius that existed at Microsoft at the time. And she was fed up. She tells the story that she thought about leaving multiple times, and she got this promotion, and she had the power to create a team around her.

40:20And she said, I'm going to do this the way I want to do it. And if I get fired, okay, I'm ready to go anyway. So she took a risk and she created this micro culture of growth on her team. And suddenly they were working together to solve problems. They were unearthing mistakes and figuring out how to work around those mistakes, how to learn from them. They were able to be more creative and innovative than any other team. And she started to attract the most talented engineers at Microsoft that there were. And suddenly her team was growing and growing because people were just asking and begging to be part of her team.

40:55And she became known as really an evangelist for this culture of growth approach within this larger culture of genius. And sometimes that's what it takes. Now, if you're not a leader who gets the power to create your own team, you can always, as an individual contributor, find other people who are really motivated to create this kind of culture of growth for themselves, right? Finding your culture of growth pod is a strategy that you can do. You can do it within your organization. You can do it outside of your organization. People who are in similar roles but aren't in your organization, that can be a place where you can practice moving towards your growth mindset more of the time.

41:32Talking about when you got that critical feedback, you got that negative performance evaluation, how do you respond from your growth mindset? How do you actually talk to your manager or supervisor in a way that's going to move them towards their growth mindset when they're interacting with you. Practice some of those skills and strategies together. So there's a lot of power in these microcultures of growth to be able to shape people's experiences and their motivation and their performance on a day-to-day basis. Up next on Remarkable People. And so I think there's a lot of power that companies and organizations have to put pressure on schools and universities and legislatures and others to really say, we know the power of having a diverse workforce.

42:15The data are pretty clear. It's not always easy to work in a diverse context. There's going to be a lot of cultural differences. It can be stressful. We can have misunderstandings, but the ultimate outcomes of creativity, innovation, product design, when it comes to actual success with fundraising and market share, we know that diversity of a workforce predicts those things. If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe rate and review it even better forward it to a friend a big mahalo to you for doing this welcome back to remarkable people with guy kawasaki can i give you a thought that please and i give it to you only in the spirit of one author to another and one worshiper of carol Dweck to another, which is when I read that example of Melinda Gates and Patty Stonefifer, Stone, is it Stonefifer?

43:15I knew her when she was at Microsoft. I think that example would be more powerful if you anonymized her, right? Because a skeptic would say, yeah, she could have a culture of growth inside Microsoft because she was dating Bill Gates. Nobody else could. Right? Yeah, yeah. I guess that's one way you can view it. I don't remember if when she was building her team, if she had yet started to date Bill. I actually think it predated her relationship with Bill Gates, but we could look into it. But I think you're right that there's power in anonymizing, particularly in that kind of context. I know there's many other contexts and other places where people have really been able to make change within very notorious, should we say, cultures of genius.

44:05But, you know, that Silicon Valley, you know Silicon Valley best, I feel. Where are the places in Silicon Valley that really embody the culture of growth and buck the dominant culture of genius? What would you say? There are no cultures of growth in Silicon Valley. Wow. That is a powerful statement. I mean, I'm scratching my head. Listen, I am living in Silicon Valley. That doesn't mean I understand the culture of every company. But the way you described it, it's most Silicon Valley tech companies are, you describe Uber and all that. And it's a bunch of white bros, frat brothers. And maybe they're self-proclaimed, but they think they're geniuses.

44:52and then venture capitalists are even more so like that. Yeah, in our study - Maybe this is calling the kettle black. Well, in our study of entrepreneurs, we actually found that when entrepreneurs and founders perceived VCs, venture capitalists and other investment groups to endorse more of these cultures of genius, they felt less confident that they'd be able to raise their funds. and it had a bigger impact on women founders and entrepreneurs. They felt that because they don't fit this model, this cultural model that we have of genius, right? How do you know what a cultural model of genius is?

45:32You go to Google Images, you put in genius and you look at Google Images and you see the faces that emerge, right? You're going to be hard pressed to be able to find women, people of color, LGBTQIA, people with disabilities, right? You're going to be hard pressed to find anyone with any difference. And people know this. So when you have VCs, whether you have, when you have companies that really endorse these strong cultures of genius, women and people of color know that they are unlikely to fit that prototype. They're unlikely to fit that mold in other people's eyes. And so they anticipate that they're going to do worse, fair worse when it comes to investment, when it comes to relationships and mentoring, people are going to not be their sponsors in the way that they're going to sponsor the white guy with the hoodie who matches our genius prototype.

46:19And I think this can explain why we have so much inequality, right? So much inequity in this world of entrepreneurship and one of the things we can do. And yet when we look at these companies, who's actually successful? It's not the cultures of genius. It's the cultures of growth. So we've got it wrong. We're actually not right in our predictions. And I'm hoping that we can start some change here Together, guy. You brought up gender. So do you think there's a fundamental difference between the kind of cultures that men and women create? No, I don't. And I think the reason is because there's a larger socialization in industries that really impact the extent to which people embody a culture of genius or a culture of growth, especially founders and entrepreneurs.

47:08the dominant industry culture is really hard to buck. And we see some women able to do it, some people of color able to do it, but also some white guys that are able to do it, right? And so I think that dominant mindset culture in an industry actually trumps the effects of gender most of the time. Now, I will say that what we have seen is that many of the companies that are on the far end of the mindset culture continuum, most closely to the culture of growth, like a pure culture of growth, those do tend to be more women and people of color because they acknowledge and see the extent to which collaboration, innovation, risk-taking, making mistakes, having to invest in people and develop them over time, what that kind of investment actually affords in terms of people's productivity, their trust, their commitment to the organization, right?

48:01Their willingness to go the extra mile. We have seen a lot of companies really at that far end of the culture of growth continuum, often being helmed by women and people of color. You brought up the name Adam Newman in your book, the founder of WeWork. So he gets thrown out of that company. And then in this culture of genius called Silicon Valley, He gets funded again to build another company. Now, why do these guys fail up? I mean, how do you explain that? Does that make your head explode? Adam Neumann gets funded again. And now he's even talking about buying back WeWork. What does that tell the world?

48:53Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that it tells the world that the culture of genius is powerful, that it's influential, that it is moneyed, and that we are committed to the status quo. And people see more risk, even though they know what the consequences are of investing with this person and with the kind of orientation that he had for developing WeWork. People kind of know what they're getting into, and yet they feel that is somehow less risky than someone who's really going to grow their folks and grow themselves as a leader, like Katrina Lake, for example, a very growth-minded oriented person, failed and failed and failed again until she got her company right, decided not to take every piece of investment that was offered to her, really worked to be sure that the growth and the values were going to be aligned for her work.

49:49And then her story kind of speaks for itself. And so it's interesting. I think, what do you make of it? The fact that he gets to re-up and fail up in this Silicon Valley culture of genius. What do I make of it? Yes. What do you make of it? How do you make sense of it living in this world? I think one of the most plausible explanations of that and Elon Musk, for example, is that we are living in a simulation controlled by God and God has a sense of humor. And she is sitting up there. She's saying, oh, let's get Adam Neumann another round of financing and let's make Elon Musk the richest man in the world.

50:34And let's see what these dumb asses called humans do with that. That's my only explanation. You know, I think that there is something to this, right? That like, you know, if we invest in enough chaos making, the only solution in this time, technology, moment of truth around technology, moments of truth around energy, moments of truth around earth and sustainability, it just shows to me that the only way forward is going to really be these cultures of growth that people are going to have to find in order to build within these larger dominant cultures of genius. in order to solve our problems today.

51:12I think that the only way forward is to let women control the world. Seriously, I really do. I think men have screwed it up for 2000 years. Let's let women try. And then if women fail, let's just let AI run everything. Let's let AI. That's my theory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am afraid that the culture of genius is baked into many of our base algorithms that sort of motivate AI. So we're going to have to do some work there too around reprogramming around a culture of growth. But I think women and people of color have shown themselves to be focused in cultures of growth and committed to their development more so than dominant groups like white men who have really benefited for centuries from this genius mythology and this genius culture that they've created to sustain power and sustain privilege.

52:04I'm with you.

52:08Okay. So now, you know, it seems that, well, not seems, it is that companies that have DEI programs and support diversity and inclusion and all that, they're all been slapped on the face and they're retrenching. And in the state of Florida, you can't even say those three letters. Look, what's going to be the long-term effect of all this anti-DEI, anti-woke philosophy? Yeah, I think that the future is yet to be written on this. I do think that there are more and more, I am seeing companies really having to be the bellwether and the beacon for diversity, equity, and inclusion. when schools and colleges across these different states are being told they can no longer teach, they can no longer have policies and practices that have a diverse student body, attract and then graduate a diverse student body.

53:04What I am seeing, and especially in STEM, that a lot of these tech companies are telling these schools, listen, we need a diverse STEM workforce. And if you aren't going to be training them, we're going to be getting our workers from other universities that will and other states that will. And so I think there's a lot of power that companies and organizations have to put pressure on schools and universities and legislatures and others to really say, we know the power of having a diverse workforce. The data are pretty clear. It's not always easy to work in a diverse context. There's going to be a lot of cultural differences.

53:42It can be stressful. We can have misunderstandings, But the ultimate outcomes of creativity, innovation, product design, when it comes to actual success with fundraising and market share, we know that diversity of a workforce predicts those things. And so it's going to be up to companies, I think, to put pressure on schools and legislatures and others to say, this is a value we have to make the American workforce competitive globally. And if you can't do this, we're going to go to the few states that are going to be producing this workforce. Ah, my fingers are crossed that what you said is true.

54:23But to take one real solid example, what happens if Ron DeSantis defeats Disney? Isn't that a big tell? Yeah, I mean, I think that we're waiting to see. I think that Disney has had some wins when it comes to this fight. And other companies are locking arms, right? Other companies are pushing back, I think, in many different ways. Powerful companies are pushing back because they see the value of diversity, equity, inclusion for their own workforce and for their products and services. Now, I also think there are many other reasons to support diversity, equity, inclusion besides the bottom line. I don't think that the strongest even justification for DEI is the bottom line, though that exists.

55:08I also think that there's a lot to be said about really creating a middle class, a solid middle class, an upper class that's able to actually rise over time and be able to recreate society in this way. I do think there's a whole bunch of reasons for this. We'll see what emerges in this. I think you're right. The Disney DeSantis fight is one that really, I think, powerfully shows what's at stake here. For the record, my money is with the mouse. Okay. Never bet against the mouse. Come on. You come for the mouse. Mice are going to be here long after man disappears. I'm with you. I'm with you. You had a great discussion about the benefits of high effort challenges.

55:59Now, many people might believe, God, if it's high effort, it's not worth it. I'm going to fail. I'm going to be defeated. And I need to look for the low hanging fruit, et cetera, et cetera. So tell us why high effort challenges are in fact a good thing. Yeah, yeah, this is great. So high effort situations are one of the most popular fixed-minded triggers, fixed mindset triggers for people. This is when I'm asked to do something I've never done before. I have to master a whole new area, a new kind of division or task or role that I've had that I've never had before. And what we have seen, this actually, the research on this comes from neuroscience where people looked at brain activation of people who do a whole bunch of different tasks.

56:45And what they found was that the more challenging the task, the more effort it required, the more parts of the brain were recruited to help. So not only did it develop new neural pathways and cells, which it did, but it actually recruits different parts of the brain to work together functionally. Connectivity across the brain actually increases. And this means that we're activating higher level functions like complex problem solving, working memory, abstract reasoning, all the things we need in order to solve the problems that we're trying to solve, right? And to be the most creative when doing it.

57:20And so one of the things we've seen is that it's not just any effort, though. I think that when people think about high effort situations, they're thinking about just pushing their head against that, banging their head against the wall over and over again. I'm just trying hard. I'm just trying hard. We see this in kids, right, with teachers who say that they're teaching with a fixed mindset. They oftentimes will talk about, well, just try harder. This kid just needs to try harder. He gives up too easily, right? But what we know is that if you just keep pounding your head over and over and over against the wall, what happens, right?

57:48It's your head that's going to bust open, not the wall. And so when it comes to high effort situations, you know, what's really important is what I call effective effort. And that is effort that moves us in the right direction. effort expended in the process of learning. And that's more complicated because if I'm in an organization and I am really asking people to put high effort into a new situation that they've never been before, I have to understand where they are. I have to understand the kind of effort they're putting in. And I have to understand the extent to which it's actually moving them towards the goal that we have.

58:25A lot of times people talk about solving these crossword puzzles, the New York Times crossword puzzles or Sudoku, right? as a way to keep their brain going. And what I would say about that is that these activities can serve up to a point in terms of effort and applying our brain in new context, but only so long as they remain challenging. The key is that it's gotta be challenging and that the effort we're expending is effective effort, moving us in the right direction. And that means we have to know each other better. We have to know the kinds of effort we're putting in and we have to know process, not just outcome.

58:58We have to know the extent to which It's actually helping us develop better processes and moving us in the right direction over time. So I have two more questions and then I'm going to ask you a series of short questions. So we're almost at the end. Okay, let's do it. Okay. So my first of two bigger questions is this. So you're from Indiana, right? I live in Indiana and I live in California. Yes, both. How long have you been in Indiana? When did you live in Indiana? Since 2012. Since 2012. Yep. About 12 years. And was Bobby Knight there still alive? Oh, no. Bobby Knight was long gone by the time I came, but his legacy and his reputation remain to this day.

59:48And in fact, he was there at IU, at Indiana University, making a comeback and really being valorized in his last few years, actually, before he passed pretty recently. So I saw some of that happen. Tell me about Bobby Knight. Give me an analysis about Bobby Knight. Was he culture of genius or culture of growth? I think that he embodies this mixed mindset culture. I think that he believed in some stars. He believed in putting certain stars in certain positions in order to maximize the potential of the team. But he also was really a taskmaster when it came to the growth and development. He was forcing people in those practices to engage in mastering their particular role, their particular practice.

1:00:39He reminds me a lot of the way that Michael Jordan took on his approach when he was rejected from his high school basketball team because they thought he was too short. where he would go after school to the courts and he would take shots from each different part of the court from various locations, but he would only count the shot as making the basket. He had a certain number he had to do every day. He would only count it when it went in and it didn't hit the rim. It was just the swoosh. That was one, right? Bobby Knight applied that kind of philosophy, I feel, to his development of his players.

1:01:16Now, he also did other things that I would say embody a little bit of this culture of genius, right? In terms of sidelining people when they made mistakes. But then afterwards, there was a real analysis of each game to say, where did we get this right? Where did we get this wrong? And the next week's practice would focus on doubling down on the places that they could grow and develop. So if you talk to the teammates, if you talk to the students who learned from Bobby Knight, they will talk about how he made them a better player and better people with this kind of ethic. I think it's a mixed mindset culture, but one that had growth and development at the core of what they were doing in interaction with each other.

1:02:01Okay. My last big question is, it's not a question. It's an opportunity for you. I want you to pitch your book. Why people should buy your book. This is it. This is your free ad. Go for it. Tell people why they should buy. Listen, if you're listening to this podcast, duh, obviously, if you're not listening, you wouldn't hear me say this, but I'm telling you, you should buy this book. If you bought Carol Dweck's book, Mindset, you will love this book. This should be a two-volume bound set. So that's Guy telling you, but now I'm going to let the author tell you. I think that everyone in every interaction that they have has a mindset culture.

1:02:50The way that we talk about mistakes around the kitchen table with our kids, the way that we talk about their potential and their talent. When we go into the workplace and we're interacting with coworkers and colleagues when we are taking on leadership roles and management roles, right? And we actually now are in charge of forming those teams and making sure that they're doing the work that we need them to do, right? And also growing and investing in people over time. How do we do that in a way that's going to motivate people, engage people, and also contribute to the bottom line? And what I think this book does is it resets our whole idea about mindset.

1:03:27And it gives really actionable strategies, tools, questions to ask. There's a quiz on the book website that you can take to understand your mindset triggers, and then built in strategies about how to do this. Stories of individuals and organizations that have done this successfully, right? How do we move from this fixed-minded culture of genius that boxes everyone in? And as people who are in these cultures of genius, infighting and watching their back. It's not surprising to me that is a less successful context than one that's more collaborative and really investing in people's growth and development and places where people, frankly, want to be.

1:04:03So if you want to create these kinds of environments and understand how mindset is at the heart of all of it, buy the book. So the bottom line is you have to grow your growth mindset. It's not just what's in your head. It's also the environment. And if you're responsible for an environment and you want people to grow, you need to provide them an environment that makes that growth possible too. I want to thank the Remarkable People team. But wait, Let me stop right there. Listen to this whole episode to the very end, because Carol Dweck is coming back. Now, where was I? Back to my thanks. Thanks to Jeff C.

1:04:53and Shannon Hernandez, sound design, Tessa Nismer, researcher, Madison Nismer, my co-author and producer of the show, Louise Magana, Alexis Nishimura, and Fallon Yates. And finally, my thanks to Angela Duckworth and Katie Milkman. They made me aware of the amazing book that Mary Murphy has written. Frankly, in my humble opinion, Angela Duckworth, Katie Milkman, and Mary Murphy are the future of psychology. And I would be remiss if I didn't tell you and remind you that Madison and I have published a new book. It's called Think Remarkable, Nine Pads to Transform Your Life and Make a Difference. Just get Carol's book and our book.

1:05:45You'll be good to go. And now I'm going to give the final word to Carol Dweck. Before Mary's work, when mindset was just thought of as something inside the individual's head, it was up to the individual. It was their responsibility to put it into practice. So teachers could just define what a growth mindset was and expect the students to live according to the credo of the mindset. Managers, CEOs could just have workshops given to the employees, and then it was their responsibility to carry forth in a growth mindset, challenge-seeking and persistent way. it kind of absolved the people creating the culture.

1:06:41It absolved them of the responsibility for creating a culture that supported growth mindset, beliefs, and behavior. Mary's work really brought forth that responsibility of the culture creators.

1:07:06This is Remarkable People.