Rebecca Rolland: The Linguist Path to Enhancing Relationships

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1:05I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. We're on a mission to make you remarkable. Helping me in this episode is Rebecca Rowland. Rebecca is a talented writer, devoted mother, and accomplished educator. She is currently a lecturer at the prestigious Harvard Graduate School of Education and also serves on the faculty at Harvard Medical School. As an oral and written language specialist at Boston Children's Hospital, Rebecca is also making a great impact on the lives of children. With a doctorate from the Harvard Graduate School of Education, a master's from the MGH Institute of Health Professions, a master's from Boston University, and a bachelor's from Yale, Rebecca's impressive educational credentials reflect her deep expertise in language and communication.

1:56Rebecca has recently authored a book titled The Art of Talking to Children. This guidebook shares Rebecca's journey as a speech pathologist and provides practical insights and strategies for parents and educators to engage in meaningful conversations with children. Join us as we dive into Rebecca's incredible story and explore the power of language to transform lives. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And now, here's the remarkable Rebecca Rowland.

2:31As a speech pathologist and an expert in conversation, how would you rate the typical congressional hearing we're seeing these days? I would have to say quite low, unfortunately. Yes, I think there's so much talking at each other and very little talking with each other. So I think there's just so many people who have their own agendas and who really struggle to be open to other people's interpretations or opinions and really have a very fixed understanding of their own ideas. So I think that's a huge block to great conversations. And we see it there, unfortunately. When we see recordings of these hearings, it's pretty apparent that they're not talking to each other.

3:22They're trying to get the soundbite in for Fox, right? Exactly. Yes, I think that's what's also really hard in our current media landscape is that as much as you can make things piffy and quick and snappy, sometimes the nuance gets lost there. And I think that's a lot of what we're seeing. Well, hopefully the stuff that's not broadcast that they're really discussing. But I even doubt that these days. That's one plunge into the deep end. Second plunge is, what do you think will happen long term when politicians and school boards are trying to control what teachers are saying to and with their students?

4:10They're trying to control the conversation in school. So what's going to happen in the long run? Yes, I think that's extremely concerning, both from an educational perspective and just from a broader philosophical perspective about who are we trying to raise as young people. We want people who can ask hard questions and who can explore topics that might feel out of their comfort zone. And I think one consequence of this kind of, you know, tamping down of topics and of conversation is that kids are not allowed and helped to process things with a trusted adult. So they're really just getting things from the news, from their friends, from all of these different sources.

4:56And yet they're making a lot of assumptions based on what they hear and see, but without the support to navigate those and to think critically about them. So a lot of times, you know, if you watch lots of YouTube videos, for example, they get more and more extreme. So there's research showing that they're kind of being framed in a way that amps up the extreme topics, the misunderstandings, all of that. And so when we have children who are shamed into feeling like they can't talk about things, all of this is still discussed on the sidelines. But none of it is processed really with the support of an adult.

5:36So I think the risk is that we have a lot of really anxious kids who feel shamed about certain topics and also who are getting the wrong information and who don't really know what to do with it. So I think that's a huge problem for education. Do you think this concern that we don't want our kids damaged and being ashamed of being white or, you know, something like that? I mean, is that even plausible that this is the issue? Yes, I mean, I think what is so concerning to me as a misunderstanding is that we think we're protecting kids by not talking about things. But in reality, children are always making assumptions about what they see in the world.

6:18And the world is often a very unfair place. So they're making assumptions about how the world is based on these inequalities they're seeing, for example. And they may think even, oh, these inequalities are natural because they exist and nobody has talked about them. So without someone to say, well, these inequalities are here because of X, Y, and Z factor or because these people have been struggling to get jobs because of structural issues or anything like that. We have kids who maybe actually ironically become more biased and more involved in their own circles, more isolated because they're not able to have these conversations.

6:55So I think actually protecting kids means opening their minds and actually talking through these things much more than it does silencing them. My favorite story in your book is, I think the guy's name was Michael, where he was watching a video where a kid from Mexico was talking on the video. And he started complaining about the Mexican accent. And, you know, you tell the story. I thought it was a great story. So yes, I was a speech pathologist working with a student who was watching a video of a child from Mexico who was speaking in English with a Mexican accent. And my student was making fun of this child.

7:40And I was a very young speech pathologist and I wasn't really sure what to say. So I did the standard lecture of, oh, we shouldn't talk like that or that's really rude and he's actually trying his best and actually he's doing quite a good job on all of this. It didn't seem to make much of an impact. Only later. So I had this understanding of, oh, my student is so biased. I don't understand what's going on. How can I help? And later I met with his parents and actually realized that they were immigrants themselves. And the student didn't speak with an accent, but the parents actually did speak with quite heavy accents.

8:17And that was a real turning point for me because I realized, oh, my goodness, this student who seems outwardly, quote unquote, American and very assimilated, actually is most likely ashamed of part of his own background and is turning that kind of in projecting that onto this other person who he perceives as foreign and is pushing his anger outward. And for me, that really shows that when we don't take the time to discuss these and kind of unwind our own assumptions about people, it can really take the surprising and negative turn. And also I think just that we nearly need to support children from different backgrounds in feeling worthy and celebrating those backgrounds rather than feeling like they need to hide them.

9:20So I am writing a book based on interviews of remarkable people like you. And that story is going into the book. I think that is a great story. A few months ago, I interviewed someone named Mark Labberton. And at the time, he was the CEO of Fuller Seminary. And Fuller Seminary is a Harvard business school. I mean that in a positive. A Harvard business school of seminary. And he said, you know, guy, instead of asking people, what do you believe about vaccination or what do you believe about immigration or why do you believe it? Instead, the question should be, how did you come to believe this? So if you ask this kid, how did you come to believe that you should make fun of this other kid with a Mexican accent?

10:12You would have learned that he's from an immigrant family. and we've experienced this kind of criticism for not having a pure, quote, American accent. And so that's why. And that would be very, very educational. That's great. And I really like that question also because it's so nonjudgmental as well. Rather than saying, oh, here, I'm going to just immediately push back, in which case you're setting up a child for defensiveness. You're really starting to explore and show interest. How did your history lead you here? So I love that. So now I'm going to get you out of the deep end of the pool and we'll go into the personal end of the pool.

10:51And then we'll really get back to your topic at hand. Okay. Sounds good. A question occurred to me as I was reading your book in my personal life, which is at the end of the day, I have four kids and one's in college, two are out of college, but one's in high school. And at the end of the day, the high school one still lives with us. I try to engage and I want to ask them, how was your day? What happened and all that? And I know that's just very suboptimal questions. So my question for you is, what are you supposed to say to your kids at the end of the day to foster a good conversation? Yes. And it's so funny that you asked that because I get this question from so many parents, actually, that this seems to be a sticking point is at the end of the day, you come home, you ask your child a million questions and they say nothing or answer with one word answers.

11:50And I think part of it is just this expectation that we have. That's really a check-in conversation and kind of the expected answer is grunting or fine or can I have a snack or something like that. But we want it to be more than that. You know, we expect some kind of lengthy discussion of their days, which we're not getting. Oftentimes because kids are exhausted or they're overstimulated or they're just not wanting to talk at that time. For me, oftentimes, I first get kids in the car or at home or wherever I see them, just greet them, obviously say I'm happy to see them, and then just check in, see what they need first.

12:28Do you need food? Do you need a few minutes alone? What would work well for you? And for example, my daughter is very introverted. And these days, she often goes and she immediately wants to get food and take 10 minutes or so and be alone in her room. And I used to think that was very odd as a person who focuses on conversation, you know, because I think, oh, I want to sit and talk. I haven't seen you all day. But I came to realize that actually being aware of your children's needs around timing, especially, and around kind of when they're able to talk is just as important as the questions you ask.

13:02So actually for her saying, okay, here, go take your time. And when you're ready, come back and let's hear. And so I actually start often with more specific questions too. often piggybacking of something that happened a previous day or a previous week. So for example, oh, that story that you told me about two days ago, you know, what ended up happening with that? Or did you have that picnic you said you were going to have with your friends? I also sometimes model things, little stories myself. Oh, you won't believe this person I talked to in Australia or something like that. And showing that what we're looking for, what we want is having these specific stories rather than just fine or good.

13:39And oftentimes kids will take a cue But I do think that adaptiveness of just really recognizing that some kids need quiet time before they can re-engage is really helpful, too. Pushing off that guilt, too. And what would you advise me to say to your spouse at the end of the day? Ah, that's a good one. Well, I think it really depends on your relationship and on your temperament. I know some people who tend to be more extroverted, they immediately want to jump into conversation. interaction whereas some people want again that kind of quiet time or time alone and so I think actually before saying I'm going to recommend this I would actually recommend having a little chat with your spouse about what type of person you feel like you are at the end of the day and what your general needs are what do you need to feel comfortable and ready to engage and sometimes it's like oh would you like to go take a walk together you know if you feel like oh I need some fresh air because I've been in the office all day.

14:37What about we go for a walk and chat? Or if you have your kids around, what about they play a board game for five minutes and we sit and just say three things that we surprised us, for example. One thing we found energizing and one thing we found draining or something like that. So sometimes if you talk about these more specific issues rather than just, oh, how's your day? Oh, it's okay. Do you go to office? Yes. That kind of thing. They can get us out of those ruts because I think that can be challenging too at a family dynamic level. I'm going to have a lot of homework at the end of today. Yeah, see how it goes.

15:11I'd be curious. I'll update you. So now we're going to go truly into your lane. And in this lane, my question is, what makes a great conversation? I'd say a great conversation is one that at some level does two things. It helps bond you and the person or the people that you're with, and it changes you and the person or people that you're with. So this might mean, for example, that it changes something about the way you think. It changes a feeling that you have. It changes your understanding, or it makes you reflect on something new. It gives you some kind of ship, and this in some ways is what helps you and that person or people you're with grow together.

15:59Because the conversation is not only a bonding experience, but it's an experience and way of learning about yourself and others in the world. And sometimes it might not feel amazing in the moment. So sometimes great conversations can involve conflict, or they can involve discussing a hard topic. It doesn't always have to be something great and philosophical. But I think that even if we're having the smallest of conversations, if it does those two things, that to me is a great conversation. Can you give me some specific elements of how to get there? Sure. So one story that's from my book, which I really like is my daughter, when we were sitting in a museum, and she and I were looking at mummies.

16:45And she actually asked me, you know, where did the mummies go? And I said to her, I don't really know. What do you mean? And she said, where do their spirits or where do they go? They're sort of their souls. And I kept actually leaving silence. So I think that is one key element to actually leave silence and space for kids to think. And also admitting our vulnerability or things that we don't know. So I actually told my daughter in that moment, oh, I don't know where they went. And she asked one question after another. She asked me, well, where were you before you were born? For example, She was only five at the time.

17:23And I really didn't know the answer to that. And I said, I don't know. And I asked her, well, what about you? And she said to me, oh, I was an old man and I got tired of being so old and I turned into a baby again. And for me, that was just a really incredible answer and something that sticks with me when I think about what we can do in having these conversations. And I think part of it really is just leaving space for you and a child to go on that kind of thinking journey together, not to shut things down early or feel like you have to have an answer, but to really feel like, oh, let me actually take that question and run with it and go with what I really think, which is I really don't know and admit that to kids.

18:06And oftentimes kids have so many ideas and so much imagination that they'll take that ball and run with it. If you ever go back to the museum and see mummies, we interviewed a guest named Tempo Grandin. Do you know who she is? Yes, definitely. Okay. So in her interview, she says that she was at an exhibit or something and the decorations on the mummies as time progressed got more and more crude and less and less artistic. Oh, interesting. Yeah, she said that reflected the degradation of Egyptian society. There was getting worse and worse. And so the next time you have a conversation about mummies, you can point out to your daughter.

19:02You see how they're getting less and less beautiful? That reflects how their civilization was going. Yes, yes. Oh, that's so cool. I did not know that. I'll bring that in for sure. so you can say you learned something on a podcast interview i definitely i'll bring that home yes no wouldn't be the first time that's awesome well what about this concept that a great conversation is adaptive back and forth and child driven yeah so i often talk about sort of the abcs of rich talk and those are those three So being adaptive, back and forth with a B, and child-driven. And I think those three elements for me are kind of like a framework that we can keep in mind when having conversations.

19:51So rather than saying, you know, a script as in, oh, a conversation should look like this, I actually think there's so many ways of having conversations that are great and so many ways of meeting kids where they are. So I really want to develop a framework that could allow us to have these conversations in a really open-ended way, rather than saying, say this instead of saying that. So if we think about the ABCs, I can just go into each one briefly. And I think these are elements that you can keep in mind with any age child. So it doesn't have to be a young child or a teenager. It can be any age.

20:25So the first is adaptive, meaning that when you're with a child, you really think about adapting your conversation to their moods, for example, their temperaments, who they are in the moment, and then also who you know they are over time, whether they're more active, whether they like to talk after school or at night or after basketball, and also just even the length and pacing of your conversation. You really start to notice, oh, my child opens up when we just talk for five minutes, and then they go and play, or they open up after they've shown me or taught me how to do something, which is a frequent one for kids.

21:08So with the A, you're really just becoming more self-aware about when your conversations are working well and then how you can do more of that. So how you can bring more of that richness into your life. The B, the back and forth, is something that comes out of a lot of research on conversations, which is showing that when we think about conversations as turn-taking, meaning the adult says something, the child says something, the adult says something back. We know that the number of turns that happens in that conversation actually does a lot more to build a child's vocabulary and their social skills than just the number of words an adult is saying.

21:50So actually, the number of turns that we have is really critical in building a child's brain, building their skills and even building our relationship. But we often miss that. So we're often talking, I'd say, at kids for giving directions or telling them how to do something or lecturing. We miss that part of the back and forth where kids actually are having their responses listened to, responded to, and are getting a lot of feedback. So for the B, I just really invite people to notice, are you more of a talker with children or are you more of a listener? And how can you find that balance between having a child talk and having you talk.

22:32And the last one to see for child-driven is really just starting conversations with what is on a child's mind. So it might mean something that's exciting to them, they really want to talk to you about, or something that worries them or that they're scared about. But really, if we can get in and tap into that motivation of something that's already on a child's mind, we can already have much richer conversations than if we start from something abstract or something we pull out of a hat. So those three together are things I found in my own parenting life and in my work with families to be really helpful in having these conversations.

23:10Somewhat ironic is that this week's guest on my podcast was Dan Lyons, and he wrote a book called STFU and basically why you should shut up. And now I'm interviewing you about how to have a conversation. That's so funny. So I tell you that because maybe you're going to be thinking, Guy, why don't you just STFU about what I'm about to say, okay? I grant you that. Sure, sure. All right, so go for it. It's fine. I'm inherently a marketer and an evangelist and I'm always looking for ways to influence and persuade people better. And one of them that I've come to in my career is that you just got to make things as short as possible.

24:01So when I saw your ABC, adaptive back and forth and child driven, I said, those last two have two words. There's got to be a way to make ABC three words as opposed to one, three, and then two. So I set my mind to finding those words using chat GPT. Oh, nice. That's great. I'm not a marketer by training. So yeah, I love it. Yeah. So I give you this suggestion. Feel free to ignore it. You can even tell me, Guy, you don't know what the hell you're doing. But anyway, if you say that, we're going to edit it out, okay? Now, if you tell me, Guy, this is sheer genius, we're going to keep it in. Okay, sounds good.

24:46So I think instead of back and forth, you could use one word, which is bilateral. Yeah. Okay? And then instead of child-driven, I think you can just say centric. and then that will broaden the use of your ABC because I think your ABC for a great conversation is true in any kind of conversation, not just child. So you could say if you want to have a great conversation, it should be adaptive, it should be bilateral, and it should be centric, centric in the sense that it's the other person who's the main character here. Anyway, I offer you that for free. I totally love that. I wish I was a marketer because I feel like that would be amazing if I had written it like that.

25:35And I might actually, if you don't mind, I might steal that for the future. I would be flattered. Quoting you. I would be flattered if you stole it. But that's amazing. And actually, it's so funny because I was talking to a podcaster actually who was business related. And he was like, oh, I wish we could change child driven to client driven or colleague driven or something like that. You know, I think I've been struggling to figure out how to broaden it. And I love that. So thank you. I will call you. Yeah, so centric can apply to anybody, right? Exactly. It could be the child, the colleague, the spouse, whatever.

26:11That's the beauty of centric as opposed to having to find a C word because C works for clients, C works for customers. C does not work for spouse. Not for spouse, no. Anyway, otherwise, it'll be ABS. Yes. Why or is or how much better is in-person conversation as opposed to what you call mediated forms of conversation? So how much and why is in-person better? Yes, I think obviously mediated conversations, so conversations with through technology, through Zoom, et cetera, have their place. I would say that they are at best kind of adjuncts to in-person conversation, but that in-person conversation offers a few really key things, especially with kids that mediated conversation can't.

27:09And one of them is that you're simply involving all of the senses. So Zoom at best obviously involves only two senses. So you can see the person and you can hear them, but you don't have their presence. You can't actually sit next to them. You can't notice touch. You can't use gesture in the same way. And for kids who often depend so much on the warmth and closeness of touch and learning from a person's body language and even from their closeness in terms of how they're sitting, they're missing out a lot if they're not able to get all of those signals from another person in person. Other things are that, for example, when you're in person, you have the chance for these really minor signals that actually can say a lot.

27:58So things like sitting next to a person in silence, doing nothing together, or just sitting and actually doing something quiet together. So you're knitting while a child is playing next to you. These conversations would likely never happen over Zoom because we would say, what's the point in this meeting? But when you're in reality, when you're with a person or with a child, especially, you can let conversations unfold in a much more kind of natural and relaxed fashion when you are doing these things. Or even, for example, when you may have noticed when you are driving a car and the child is sitting next to you, you're not necessarily facing each other head on.

28:38You're both maybe looking out at the road. But that kind of in-person but not in-your-face situation can lead to a lot more deep conversations, especially about harder topics that a child might not have brought up. So I think that Zoom and mediated conversation for sure has its place, especially now. But I think our bedrock should really be that embodied in-person conversation. I really think that some of the best conversations I've had with my kids are while we're driving. And for sure, the driver shouldn't be texting or reading email or being on Zoom at that point. So at least half of the conversation is focused.