Where Brands Go Wrong: Laura Ries on Positioning

26:34That is a key concept because I think many people think that positioning and branding is built with advertising, not PR. And honestly, that early on, the positioning book, it all talked about advertising. It also talked all about words in the mind. But what happened is we wrote a book in 2002 called The Fall of Advertising and the Rise of PR. And in that book, it was the dot-com boom. You know, a lot of companies were doing just that. They were taking all their seed money and running$50 million of advertising, thinking that's how they're going to build the brand. Most of those like pets.com with bus because you've got to build it in the mind.

27:13And that takes word of mouth as the ultimate driver. But that's best done and driven by PR, the media, the news outlets, the Internet, giving third party endorsement and credentials. And that also requires a spokesperson. So back to ChatGBT, we need to get to know Sam, right? He's got to get out there talking about the brand, being that spokesperson, being like the Bill Gates or the Steve Jobs. Think about the most iconic companies also have CEOs that are known by everybody. Jensen and NVIDIA, for example. And not only that, like Jobs, he's got the signature outfit. He's got the black leather jacket.

27:49You know him and you see him and you know him immediately. Yeah, I think Elizabeth Holmes blew it a little. But yeah, she tried in a sense. Well, that's a great story. So she said, yeah, so Steve Jobs wears the black turtleneck. And I'm going to put on that same turtleneck. and people will think I'm as smart as Steve Jobs. News break, it was not the turtleneck that made Steve Jobs innovative, okay? It was the fact that Steve Jobs became known as an innovator, built the Apple company, came back and made it more powerful than ever, that when he made that turtleneck stand for that and be identified with him and his innovation.

28:31So no, you can't just slap on someone else's iconic visual hammer uniform and expect people that you think that you are them. It's actually the reverse. You have to do something, accomplish something, stand for something first. And then by wearing that same outfit, Jensen's wearing a black leather jacket for 20 years, it then becomes visually representative of you and your pioneering exciting idea. Laura, if there's one thing that I wish people or hope people pick up from this podcast is that the Steve Jobs, the Jensen's, the Elon Musk of the world, their brand and positioning was established by doing something great, not by executive coaches and not by all this kind of white papers and getting speeches at TEDx.

29:17They really did something and everything else follows. Jane Goodall doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about branding Jane Goodall. No, but she has a very specific focus. She's very passionate about it. And she has done it over and over again for years and years and years. And that is what it takes. There are many great company leaders that are doing things, but unless we know about them, it does take time to do the media interviews, to do the speeches, to do the television shows, to become known for what you have accomplished. And not all leaders take the time to do that. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I get the impression that you think brand extension is largely flawed.

30:00Is that an accurate assessment of what I read? That is very accurate. If there is an enemy today of positioning, I think it truly is brand extension, particularly when it goes across categories. And you've got many examples. We love to talk them over the decades. Think about when a brand like Coca-Cola stands for something. What is Coca-Cola? It is the real thing, right? And they come out with a brand called Coca-Cola Life in a green package, green cans and bottles. It messes with the mind. What do you mean? This is Coca-Cola Life? What does the person think of? Instantly, that repositions the original, the real thing is, I think, Coca-Cola death because what's the opposite of life?

30:44And it's not too far of a stretch because as people are making the connection with too much sugar and obesity and all these things, or even artificial sweeteners are bad. And so You've gone directly against yourself by using one name and not only that, using the green and the life on top of it. And it was discontinued. It was a miserable failure, as you may well have guessed. And was it a category? Were people not interested in that? It was a mid-calorie cola, if you will. So it had cane sugar and it had stevia, you know, a natural sweetener. Today, in fact, that's the hottest category. But it's not hot because it was from line extension companies, from Pepsi or Coke.

31:19No, it's new brands. It's Olipop and Poppy that are paving the way. It's those new categories that people get excited about and the brands that represent it. Those are the real thing in the prebiotic soda, which is a nice way of creating a category for healthy sodas that both brands are doing well. I think one is going to succeed over the other. A time will tell which one that is. I drink a lot of stuff, Anne. I have to tell you that. Me too. Obviously, in my mind, if I had to choose between these new Liquid Death little colas versus Olipop, it's a pretty close decision there. I love that Olipop has cream soda and cola and watermelon.

32:02But now Liquid Death is not just water. It's cola-ish, right? They have, you know, it's still in the can, thank goodness. But they are also positioning it as flavored water. So it is so much of a cola, but it is still in the water category, which I think is good for them. But they do have to be careful because the more you expand, the more you weaken the brand. Strength doesn't come from putting your brand name on more things and more categories. It comes by dominating a category and potentially launching new brands for new categories. Think about the Gap. What's one of the best things the Gap ever did?

32:36Launch Old Navy, right? That second brand has made more money for the company. and unfortunately companies fall in love with their brand. If you worked at Kodak, how can we launch anything that doesn't have Kodak on the package? Kodak was seen as one of the most, it was one of the most powerful brands in the world. They thought it meant trust. Uh-uh, didn't mean trust. It meant film photography. And when you try to put that same name on a different category for digital, it was a loser. And the second brand could have been very effective in that case and for many companies, that opportunity. Take advantage if you have it, if you have that new idea to put a new category.

33:16What did Mike's Hard Lemonade do? You know, this was a booming brand as kids were turning away, or young people, or turning away from beer. And this was a hard lemonade, right? Sweet, delicious, lovely. People loved it. In the 2000s, we also got pretty carb conscious, no sugar, no carbs, no this. What did they do? They saw that as this was a problem with their own brand. and they launched a new brand that actually became their own enemy, if you will, which is White Claw. And that category of hard seltzers has taken the world by storm. And these things don't even taste good. But as a hard seltzer, that category, it doesn't need to be.

33:52It has low calories, no carbs, purely positioned against the enemy, which were beer has carbs. All the hard teas, hard lemonades have way too many sugar and calories and a very strong positioning with a second brand to really take advantage of it. It's more about with line extension, the opportunities missed. And then, of course, the disasters like launching a Bayer non-aspirin. It's insanity. How could smart companies do this? Who's deciding these things? Bayer equals aspirin. It's an oxymoron to come out. But they have. We've got lots of examples. Wow. We shouldn't wait for Tesla to introduce a V8.

34:31But anyway, let me ask you something. So let's suppose that I know what your answer is, but I just want to hear you explode when I give you this question. I love telling the stories over and over. So tee it up. It runs in your family, right? It does. It's in my genes. So suppose that Mike Cesario from Liquid Death calls you up and says, strategically, we're thinking that the brand Liquid Death stands for killing bad things. It kills your thirst. It kills plastic. So we're into killing bad things. So now we're going to introduce a line of meldue killer and ant killer and roach killer and things to kill your hunger.

35:13So now there's going to be liquid death, spam, and aluminum can. Try to keep a straight face there, Laura. What are you going to tell Mike when he gives up with this brilliant brand extension idea that he just paid McKinsey$5 million for? Mike, don't do it. Don't. Just say no. I've got a good example, though. These things happen. So you also know this brand, Dude Wipes, I hope. Yes. Yes. And no one wants to talk about it or admit it. But listen, we all poop. And these things are fantastic. And started by an entrepreneur who took on toilet paper as wetter is better. And did it with also strong branding.

35:54This, again, he didn't revolutionize the idea. Cottonelle and Charmin had moist toilet paper products. but they weren't strongly positioned because they couldn't take out their enemy, which was themselves. They were all line extensions. And so Dude Wipes, with a great brand, strong positioning, went against the enemy and got us all to get hooked on these things. But in about 2017, a couple hundred million, you get thinking, you're really smart. You're really killing it. And your customers, they really tell you too. We love Dude Wipes. You need more Dude stuff. We want to have, and he thought of this, a Dude Nation.

36:28We're going to take over the bathroom. We started with the toilet paper. We're going to go to soap and deodorant. And they did. They launched soap and deodorant. Can you believe it? They sold a few. And then I talked to Sean Riley, the co-founder, and he said he happened to read a book. Maybe you know it. The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing. Al Rees and Jack Trout. And he got to the law, the law of line extension. And he said, and I quote, oh, shit. What am I doing? I am violating this law and I haven't dominated the toilet paper category. And I'm fighting the biggest companies in the world on toilet paper.

37:09What am I going to go fight all the soap companies and Dove and Dr. Squatch and all these other things? I got enough on my plate. And he got out of that. And just so happens that also the pandemic hit when the only thing we needed was toilet paper and paper towels for some reason. And they greatly benefited from that. And this is so important for entrepreneurs. because of course money is important, but nothing is important as your time. That is the most important resource. And these line extensions, they will distract you because you're so worried. How am I going to sell more soap? How am I going to tell people they should use deodorant with the same brand that they wipe their butt with?

37:44You're focused on the problems. Instead, he focused on the solution and the brand that had the biggest potential at the biggest moment of history in the world. And he killed it. And he ramped up production. He ramped up marketing. And that's where you see that the true skyrocketing success of companies that are able to take advantage of those moments and have the focus and attention and all their resources focused in on one thing. It's like having one kid, right? You got all that in there. And what if the CEO of Total calls you up and says, we dominate the bidet business and And we're interested in extending our brand by buying dude wipes because we decided we stand for clean asses.

38:29So we got to not just sell hardware. We want to sell toilet tissue too. No, that's the thing. You got to think of what is a consumer thing? How do they position those brands? What's funny is we do a lot of global work. I've got clients all over. But you talk to someone in China or Japan and I say dude wipes, these wet toilet wipes. They're like, what are you talking about? We have Toto toilets. We are way more advanced than you. And if you've ever used one of these things, they are amazing. But not everyone can afford like a$10 ,000 toilet. So I still think there's plenty of room for June wipes to continue to wipe out the market.

39:09It is a horizontal market. Up next on Remarkable People. It absolutely doesn't have to be another company. It can be another category. When you launch a new category instantly, usually that old category is the enemy, right? You don't want to do that the old way. We got the new way. And so it can be that or it can be a convention or a concept or even for nonprofits. But when you focus in on something specific, it's going to make it much more powerful.

39:44become a little more remarkable with each episode of remarkable people it's found on apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows welcome back to remarkable people with guy kawasaki Now let's specifically get into your book. You talk about the benefits of having an enemy. And as I read your book, the first example that popped into my brain, and I hope you'll reinforce what popped into my brain and give us your analysis of it, is that I'm old enough to remember when Toyota introduced Lexus. And Lexus picked BMW and Mercedes as the strategic enemy and basically said, our car is just as good as a Mercedes or BMW, but half the price.

40:31And they didn't say it's Toyota XL. They said it's Lexus. So now what's your analysis of what Toyota did with Lexus? It is one of my favorite examples. I am sure my kids have heard it a million times. My dad told it a million more. Toyota, biggest car maker in the world. And what a powerful position. And it was very well known in the mind as what? Reliable and affordable. A powerful combination. But if they wanted to go upscale, the mind was going to reject paying twice as much for a Toyota. Nobody's going to pay twice as much for a Toyota. Same thing happened with Volkswagen. Remember, they launched the Phaeton, the$100 ,000 Volkswagen.

41:13And that was a miserable failure. But Toyota didn't do that. They had a totally separate brand. While people at the back of their mind and the industry knew that Toyota made it, people bought a Lexus despite the fact that they may know or remember that Toyota made it. It was separate dealers, separate advertising, separate brand in the mind of the consumer. And that's what allowed them to go against the enemy of the European cars and saying, absolutely, we can make luxury from Japan. And it was tremendous success, but they couldn't have done it with the same brand. That's the lesson to take away from it.

41:46So would you say that one of the most important qualities of a strategic enemy is that everybody knows who the enemy is, so you don't have to explain who you are and who your enemy is? The exercise really needs to start at the company themselves so that you can be clear. And then to the consumer, sometimes, absolutely, you go out and scream and show off who your enemy is. Look at what Chick-fil-A does. Chick-fil-A, the first chicken sandwich. And they have no hamburgers. And so 30 years ago, the ad agency said, hey, we've got an idea. We're going to use cows in our advertising and have signs that tell people to eat more chicken.

42:25Because the enemy is the burger chains and chicken, even though it's fried, a healthier type halo. And because they have the narrow focus, they could go strongly against that enemy. And they have used that for 30 years, making it very memorable and hammering in not just their position, but what the enemy is. Now, not everyone has to go out and do it that way, but you have to set up what your strategy is. You have to have a focus that's narrow enough so that the enemy is clear. Now, what if your enemy truly is better than you? Listen, better is so relative. Between Monster and Red Bull, how can you perceive the various differences?

43:05Certainly in some categories, and there's Reddit posts and there's information and there's all those specs and things, but the consumer is overwhelmed. They need ultra simplicity. You need to give them a reason to feel good about buying your brand. There was a famous research study that looked at the attention of what people pay to television advertising of automobiles. And you would think that's a no brainer. The people that are about to buy a car will pay the most attention to those ads. It turned out to be not true. In fact, the people that paid the most attention to the ads were those that had just bought the car.

43:40Why? Why? Because they want to reinforce to themselves, they made the right decision. I made the right decision. I'm eating chicken. I'm going to Chick-fil-A. I want an EV. I went with a Tesla. I feel good about it. I'm proud about it. And it stands for something. And that's the same with your brand. You want to constantly reinforce why they've made the right decision. As you remind people at the start of your podcast, I'm going to talk about remarkable people. Now, you probably get very tired of saying that, but it is very important that you say it every time. Okay. Madison, did you hear that?

44:13Because Madison has often said to me, Guy, you say that every time people are tired of hearing you talk about remarkable people and how we're going to make people remarkable. The more you say it, and also in you look at psychology, the more believable it becomes. And so the more you say it, the more is, oh my God, that's true. Why does it feel true? Because you've heard it before. And so the repetition of that. And again, if you can combine that with a visual, it becomes even more effective. You think about Coca-Cola and the contour bottle, what I call a visual hammer that symbolizes and makes you distinctive in the world.

44:48But not only that is it beautiful and stands out, it communicates an idea, meaning that it's the real thing, that iconic original bottle. And brands that can do that become very successful. So walk me through the advantages and disadvantages of enemies that are organizations, i.e. Lexus versus Mercedes. But what if your strategic enemy is an intellectual thing or a practice? It's not an organization. It's not Lexus versus Mercedes. It's you against pollution or something like that. It absolutely doesn't have to be another company. It can be another category. When you launch a new category instantly, usually that old category is the enemy, right?

45:29You don't want to do that the old way. We got the new way. And so it can be that, or it can be a convention or a concept, or even for nonprofits. But when you focus in on something specific, it's going to make it much more powerful. If you think about MD Anderson, what have they done? They're focused on cancer and they're ending cancer. And they also visualize it. They write the word cancer and they put a red line through it. What a powerfully effective way to demonstrate who the enemy is. Most hospitals cover a range of things and help lots of different diseases and things, but they focus on cancer.

46:05Because they do that, they can have a very strong message. Or I volunteer with the Young Men's Service League. And this is an organization that helps moms with their teenage sons during the four years of high school. They set up opportunities to do community service. What a great idea. The problem is, how do you get people to sign up for this? Busy kids, busy moms, very difficult. But understanding what the enemy is can make the positives more clear. And what we identified as the enemy is time itself. The fast four years of high school. You make it very specific so they understand. Because unfortunately, when you're a mom in eighth grade and they're asking you to sign up for this thing and you got to do 20 years 20 hours of service and you got to help us with this and that they're like oh i don't want to do that but if you say listen you got four years left with your little boy and he's going to grow up the blink of an eye and be off to college off to work off to the service what what time do you want to spend with him what kind of things and do you want to instill in him what experiences do you want him to have how do you want to feel at that high school graduation?

47:11Did you spend the right time? Did you show him the right things? Did you open his eyes to the world? And listen, I give myself goosebumps with my own marketing, but it's a very effective way to set up what that problem is because in many cases, it's the problem that is the enemy. And if you could show them the problem, it makes what your brand, what your solution is, and what the contrast between doing it and not doing it. And that's a lot within the nonprofits. If you're going to support it, you're going to do it or you're not going to do it. Or even tunnel for towers. Listen, lots of nonprofits, we want to raise money and do a lot of great things for veterans.

47:46Lovely. That sounds very nice. But that's not going to make you memorable, right? We, you know, they took one key idea, mortgage-free homes for heroes and their families left behind. What a powerful idea of a narrow focus. And that's very clear what the enemy is. you know, saddling with a mortgage when you're catastrophically injured or your family is left without their loved one, having the freedom of a mortgage-free home, that brings it home. Just saying you're going to do good, you got to be specific and focused. And that's what's going to give people goosebumps and get them excited to rally for whatever cause you have.

48:24So there's a concept that I surely want you to cover because I found it so interesting. and it is the concept of a visual hammer. So please explain what a visual hammer is. Listen, positioning was all about words. And at the end of the day, the end goal is to own a word in the mind or to dominate the category, be leader in that category. It's about words, but very hard to get words in the mind. So what we found and developed for many years ago is using the power of a visual. Why? Because a visual is much more emotional. You have a picture of the word baby versus a picture of a baby. You have a much more emotional reaction when you see that baby.

49:07Now, it's not just about having an attractive logo or a visual connected to it. It's about having something that has emotional power and reinforces what your positioning is, even if that visual is just a way to visualize your name itself and why names that lend themselves to visual hammers can be very powerful. So Target, duh, they have the image of a Target that reinforces it. Or even have things like the green jacket of the Masters golf tournament. It's one of the four majors, but one of the most powerful and memorable. Why? Because the golf course is beautiful, but that green jacket. Now, I don't know about you, but it's not very attractive.

49:48But it's different. And believe me, that is the shot every media guy wants or girl wants to get, is that the old winner putting the jacket on the new winner and you see the new jacket. That's very effective. That use of something strikingly different, using it for years and years and years, that visual becomes representative of the concept itself. And it's the same thing with the Nike swoosh. Sometimes you create a visual hammer. Corona has the lime in the top of the beer. What does a lime communicate? It's authentic Mexican because Mexico has limes. The United States has lemon, right? We do lemons on everything.

50:22They do limes on everything. newsflash. So that was a true identifier of Mexico and the beach and all those great things. But sometimes the leadership itself, if you give yourself a simple visual, that becomes representative of it. It's like the black turtleneck for Steve Jobs. Nothing about the turtleneck, but because Steve wore it and Steve stood for innovation, that became symbolic of it. Nike and the swoosh. Nike's leadership in athletic footwear for decades has made that swoosh representative of leadership or the blue box for Tiffany's representative of Tiffany's leadership in high-end jewelry.

51:00And not only that, many people don't study enough history. What made Tiffany's so fabulously successful? It was the first raised prong engagement ring. All the rings before were bezel, meaning the diamond was stuck into the setting. That was safer, right? You wouldn't lose it. But they had the technology to raise it up so it made it more sparkly, more brilliant. But that was the key idea. But they also put it in a blue box over 100 years ago. And that box connected with the idea of being the pioneer in this new type of ring. Always so exciting to look back at these things. Laura, if David Ogilvie has a daughter and she hears this, she's thinking, oh my God, we just got slaughtered with advertising.

51:45And it's all about positioning and branding and PR, not advertising. Well, it's funny you bring him up. My dad was a big fan. Oh, really? Well, for many things, of course. The way he approached simplicity, he was an introvert like my dad. The way he communicated with those memos and just fantastic. But here's the thing. Back in the day, actually, when positioning launched, my dad was a nobody. He ran a tiny B2B advertising agency that wasn't very well known. And to become well known, they did focus on this concept of establishing positioning as a way to differentiate their agency of how they approach their clients and how they did the work for them.

52:28And what they did was take a very strong stance against Ogilvy and creative advertising, saying it's not just the creativity of the ad, it's the positioning that is going to establish it. And not because he hated creativity. He doesn't. I don't. But the positioning has to happen first and then you can be creative. One of the greatest Volvo ads ever is showing the car totally squished as if in an accident. I mean, that's powerfully creative, but it stems from a strong positioning idea. It's not just having a guy with a patch on his eye for your shirt. It's about having something about the shirt itself.

53:06If you were to give the president of Signal advice, Meredith Whitaker, what would your advice be about positioning and branding Signal? Is the competition messages or WhatsApp or is it privacy? Is it lack of security? What would be the Laura Reese gist of advice to Meredith Whitaker to make Signal successful or even more successful? Listen, these things are not easy. You really have to study the situation. I'm not sure I'm totally up on that. That's why you're my guest. If it was easy, I could have anybody on my show. The thing is the best ideas sound easy when you hear them. And that's what makes them brilliant.

53:49And it becomes very challenging to find those ideas. And whatever the words may be, the way you verbalize it, the way you can visualize it. And the visual, what's their visual? I can't think of what it is. And Signal is a name. Also, it's pretty generic. Think about one of the greatest companies, Twitter. What a brilliant name with the bird and the blue and the 140 characters being simple, specific and differentiated. You got to find a way to connect all of those things together that will truly make it memorable. So we would have to work on all those things. And she can call me anytime I'm available.

54:27Okay. Let us now say that Gavin Newsom calls you up and says, Laura, I'd like advice about positioning and branding myself. Should I troll Trump? Should I go after Trump? Should I take the high road and talk about democracy? What's your advice for Gavin Newsom? I love politics. I think it's interesting because the ultimate battle, right, of two sides, the two parties that we have. And he's got to find his focus. He can't try to out Trump Trump. He's trying to have his own kind of hat style. Forget that. You've got to find your own voice. And not only that, find what your focus is. One of the problems of the Democrats is trying to have too many messages for too many people, not focusing on one thing.

55:16What got Trump into office the first time? Build the wall. Specific. What got Obama into office? Beating Hillary Clinton, who was thought to be a shoo-in. Change. Change you can believe in. She had all sorts of messages. What got Bill Clinton? It's the economies. He's got to find that one core idea. Now, exactly what it is, I'm not exactly sure, but he's got to find it. And he's got to hammer in on it and constantly reinforce that to go against Trump and reposition Trump in a way that we can fight for him against whatever the other side. Okay. I will send that little snippet to Gavin. Well, and I find both sides super important, but I think he is doing something in the right direction of making it personal.

56:08because we've come with Trump, the constant tweeting. He was on every sort of television show, every media event. We truly got to know him the way we get to know CEOs these days or all people. It is the willingness to go in there and to talk to people. Even if you have a gaffer too, that does happen. But I think he's in that right direction. He's just got to find his true personality and make it his own and make it authentic and relatable. Follow in, not a copycat of Obama because that will never work, But he's got to find his own vision in his own way and stand for his own thing. Okay. Okay. But those red hats are hard to beat.

56:47I mean, can you, you know, what Trump has done in terms of just pure strategy of the narrow focus and that hat visual has been very effective. I'm going to give one last plug for your book. And I love that your book's cover really walks the talk because on the cover of your book is basically a red liquid death can, right? Liquid death-ish inspired by, perhaps. Book covers are so important. You've written a lot of books. The cover has to communicate in a visual and emotional way the concept of the book. and this wasn't my idea. The publisher had this fantastic idea, but I know a good idea when I see it.

57:33And I was like, hooray, that's fantastic. I was gonna put a little Pac-Man enemy icon on the cover and they ixnate that. But yeah, I mean, communicating that the can is squishing the plastic bottles. And that's what you have to think about. What are we gonna contrast ourselves from? And listen, one of my favorite examples is Halo Top. Remember this, the light ice cream? They just didn't talk about it. They put the whole number of calories. If you ate the whole pint, it's going to be 300 calories. And that was the biggest thing on the package. You want to hammer whatever is your position, hammer away at it.

58:07Be bold, be brave, be courageous, and make your brand worth fighting for. Laura, it has been truly a pleasure. And I got to believe Al is up there and he's just cracking up and he's thinking, oh my God, my daughter's kicking ass down there. Oh, that's so sweet. Yes, I certainly hope he is. And, you know, I'm doing my doing my best here. And listen, I love what I do. I've grown up with positioning and I look forward to taking it into the next 50 years. All right. So I want everybody listening to go out there and look for the cover with the liquid death ish red can on it. You hold out the cover one more time.

58:50Yeah, it's destroying the plastic bottles. Knowing who that enemy is, it's just a stronger way to make your brand more powerful. All right, Laura, I'm going to thank you. I want to thank Madison Neisler, co-producer Jeff C., co-producer Shannon Hernandez sound design. That's the Remarkable People team. With guests like Laura, how can we not help you be remarkable.

59:20This is Remarkable People.