Episode 383: Todd Anderson: Proven Tips for Better Sleep + Why Mindset Matters For Sleep Health

22:19How many sheep is it going to be before I fall asleep? And you stay awake longer. So anything that brings attention to the fact that you can't sleep is probably going to be a deterrent for actually getting good quality sleep. And that's why I recommend like don't spend time in that space if you're just ruminating about not being able to sleep. Just get up and do something different. Yeah, just get your mind off. Even if you go in the other room and there's like a TV show that's relaxing, I know it's light and all that stuff, but that might be a one-off thing, right? So like a couple hours of sleep one night is way less impactful than all of a sudden associating your sacred place of sleep with anxiety and the feeling of being uneasy about sleeping.

22:54So I'm going to give you my number one sleep tip, okay? Sleep hack. Because I don't have a TV in my room, I told you. But that's more like logistics in terms of where to put it. Don't ask where to put it and all that stuff. Because we don't have walls. They're all like windows. It's a whole thing. Tough life. Yeah. Just so many windows and there's floor to ceiling. So I just can't. That's not what I pointed. So I use an iPad, right? And I only use it when I really can't fall asleep. Because there are two. So my number one sleep hack. There's two shows that just bring me joy if I watch them, and that's The Golden Girls.

23:28Oh, wow. And that's Frasier. Okay. And if I watch one of those shows, it brings me back nostalgic. It brings me back to years ago when I was a young kid. That's a great point, yeah. And I just get happy. And I watch an episode, it brings me joy, and I fall asleep. And it takes away any angst of the day. And by the way, I want to shout out to Dave Rubin because I know you know, Dave Rubin, that you're the same way with Golden Girls. We have this like, we bonded over this thing. Do you know who Dave Rubin is? Yeah. I don't know him, but I know he is. Okay. Well, anyway, I love him because you know who he is?

24:03He's a political guy. Yeah. Okay. And he came on the podcast and we had like. That's how I saw him on. That's how I knew. Oh, he's not on yet. He wasn't on yet. I mean, he was on, but I never aired it. What? Then you post a story or not. I did. I did. I did post a story about him. Yeah. Because he could understand it. is like if something brings you joy and happiness, it will help you fall asleep better. So there's some actually good stuff on that now. So they did this study with the light, like blue light, right? There's an explosion of these blue light blocking glasses. And the data on like, you know, its impact on sleep was, it wasn't like strong correlation.

24:38It was relatively weak. Well, now some new stuff come out. And what they're realizing is really the more impactful thing is how intense your connection is with the content. So if you're viewing something that's really emotional or really invigorating to your brain that you're dialed into, that's going to be more impactful than the actual light, if that makes sense. Yeah, totally. And there's also on the flip side, I would venture to say, and I think I'm in this bucket, if there's something like Golden Girls that's relaxing and you associate with those positive emotion, I would bet that might be worth actually having the light.

25:14Totally. you think about routine, like you think about how embedded, how deep rooted those emotions are, that's more powerful than like a little bit of light in your eyes. I would venture to say, this is just going off of trying to piece things together. But I think when you look at the psychology of things, like psychology and just how you feel emotionally is usually a lot more powerful than any physical reaction. Totally. It puts you in a different headspace. Which is really, like I said, that's the most important thing about sleep. That's why when you said I smiled, because I think blue light, shmoo light.

25:44I think at the end of the day, if you're in a good headspace and you feel peaceful and joy and calm, calm's a big one, then you'll fall asleep much easier. So tell me about staying asleep, because I think a lot of people have that problem. Yeah, I think a lot of people. Well, it's not abnormal to wake up in the middle of the night. No, but I mean, not to go to bed, pee, whatever. For sure. Sure. Well, so that's, I think that's what you have to think about is, okay, first off, if you're waking up four or five times, that's not normal. And think about how many times and why you're waking up. So a lot of times sleep issues don't show up as sleep issues at all.

26:21It's really stress management. And if you're waking up worrying about the same thing over and over and over again, like that's a good indication. You should probably talk to somebody about that, right? Like you should, therapy is a great option, but like if there are issues and stressors in your life that are repetitively waking you up or keeping you up at night, that has nothing to do with your sleep. And then the other thing is like - That's a really, can you say that again? Because I think that's super important, right? People assume is that they have bad sleep hygiene, right? But yet it's actually something else in their life that's just kind of keeping them up that they have to address.

26:56Yeah. It's like stress management. And they always mask each other. And I think what's unfortunate is people think, I can't sleep. I can't go back to bed. I have a sleep problem. And then they go on the route of supplements and medication to address sleep, and they don't address the stressors in their life. But most of the time, if you're fulfilled in what you're doing in life and you have great relationships, people tend to sleep a lot better. I think that is such a great point. This is why I like you, because I think that a lot of other sleep people really scientifically talk about sleep at a scientific level, right?

27:30But what you're doing is you're humanizing it into like actual like life, right? Like why sleep is actually important for your well-being and like what actually other things besides a cold room keeps you asleep. Because I think that's a very good point. And then what happens is I've seen this so many times with my friends because I actually sleep okay most of the time. But when I do have something that's going on in my life and that keeps me up and then I'm not sleeping and it can also go on for too long, I think, oh my God, I'm not sleeping well. So then what you end up doing is you take the melatonin or you take the magnesium or my friends, the ones who have really high stress, they take, what do you call it?

28:14It's like a pharmaceutical. It's like a big one. Ambien? Ambien. And then they can get addicted to Ambien and it becomes a rabbit hole. Cycle. A horrible cycle. Yeah. And I think you have to look at, you know, stress is like the kryptonite for sleep. And foundationally, just when we look at life as a whole and what causes stress, like if you don't have purpose in what you're doing every day and you don't have the right people around you, those two things, you're going to add significant amounts of stress to your life. So how do people expect to sleep well if the biggest things that create happiness in our life aren't in place?

28:48You're obviously going to have huge amounts of stress. And we know immediately you're going to be impacting sleep. So I think a lot of times, like hopefully when people think about having a sleep issue, why is that happening? What thoughts are happening? And peel back those layers. And a lot of times it's super foundational. And sometimes you might need to make a big change in your life. Maybe you're not around the right people, but it can be a really good, almost magnifying glass to reevaluating what you're doing. And I think that's happened to me. There's been times where I didn't feel fulfilled and I was kind of unsure and I definitely wasn't sleeping as well.

29:19And why would you be when the foundational ingredients of happiness are out of whack? Yeah, I think that's so true. People also turn to alcohol or weed to kind of help them. Which also makes sense. It does knock you out, right? Like it's sedating. So on paper, you're like, oh, I fall asleep faster, and I wake up, and I felt like I was knocked out. So you assume that it's better sleep, but it's the opposite. So what happens with alcohol and sleep? What's the effects? I mean, alcohol completely changes the architecture of sleep. So it's sedating. So when you think about it, it makes sense people like it because you fall asleep faster.

29:57Same with THC, but you fall asleep faster. And what it's doing is it's just not really allowing your body to get into those REM cycles. And REM cycles are important for basically resetting our mind, resetting our emotional stability and our ability to reason without emotion, in a sense. Reset our emotion, emotional intelligence. So if you're eliminating those REM cycles and you think about the reason people turn to alcohol, it creates this cycle. You're not going to be able to reset from an emotional perspective. But when you have the alcohol, the majority of the first half of the night, you almost don't have any REM cycle or no REM cycles.

30:30and as your body is metabolizing this alcohol, when it's done doing that, it tries to make up for it and you go into these like crazy deep or long REM cycles and you wake up feeling like you're in this great sleep. But really all you're doing is bouncing around in these lighter stages of sleep and you're actually waking up quite a bit. It's just for usually it's really short so you don't even remember it. A lot of times people be like, oh, I didn't wake up one time. But if you actually look at what's going on in your brain, a lot of times it's very wakeful sleep and it's just for a split second.

31:00But your brain really isn't having the chance to get into those cycles, those REM cycles that are so important for resetting every day. What's worse for you, alcohol or THC for sleeping? You know, it's interesting because like from just looking at the two, like alcohol in regards to like cancer, you know, causes seven types of cancer. THC hasn't been shown to do that at all. So I think just if you're looking at the two substances, alcohol is pretty horrible for you. But with sleep alone, if you isolate them, they kind of have some similar traits. You know, they both affect those REM cycles. And THC is a little different because, again, it's sedating.

31:38They both are sedating. But it seems like the first couple nights, they might have a positive impact. You might have more deep sleep and, you know, have good quality of sleep. But then afterwards, when you're chronically using it, it goes the other direction. And you tend to not have as many REM cycles and creates this lighter stage to sleep. So it's kind of weird, but they almost do the same sort of thing. I think a lot of times THC is associated with good sleep. But night after night, even though you're falling asleep faster, it doesn't mean the quality is where it should be. Anytime you're changing the structure of your REM cycles and how our body flows through that natural rhythm, usually not a great thing.

32:14Our body likes to have these rhythms and have a reason how they adjust throughout the day. Same with our circadian rhythm, how light affects things. Even our breathing is a rhythm. And so our body tends to like to have control. And anytime those are thrown off, it's going to show up somewhere else. It's going to be impacted in some way. So by the way, do you do any of that stuff then because you're such a – I mean I drink from time to time. Like I said, but I would say – Does one glass of wine affect your sleep? It does. But it depends when you have it. So I think what I've done over the years just knowing how this is impacting sleep is I think about like how much I'm going to have and when I'm going to have it.

32:55So, you know, good tips with like having, if I'm going to have a glass of wine or two, having it before dinner, as opposed to after dinner with dinner makes a huge impact. It gives your body time to metabolize it. And then even like, if you're going to have, let's say a crazy night, right? A lot of times, you know, there's not really a difference between four and six drinks as far as your experience, if you slow it down a little bit or, you know, cut it off towards the end of the night. But when you look at how it impacts your sleep and the long-term effects, if you eliminate a couple drinks 10 times throughout the year, that's a huge difference.

33:26And so I think just bringing the awareness to it and just having a little intention between or about what you're doing makes a big difference. As soon as you know what it's doing, I think you rethink every time you order a new drink. Exactly. Just being cognizant of what you're doing. What about caffeine then? because I feel like caffeine, you can get very, your body acclimates to it. Like if I have coffee, like I do it now more habitually when I wake up, I'll have coffee. But if I drink coffee at like five or six o 'clock, it doesn't really impact me at all. Or I was going to say, is that just what I think?

33:59Is it, what does it do to my body for sleep or for everything else? I mean, caffeine's interesting because it, you feel it quick, right? Like, so it peaks at like 45 minutes, but it stays with us for a long time. You know, half-life is five, six hours, which means, you know, you're only metabolizing half in six hours. So a lot of times people are just having caffeine in their system all the time. You know, if you have like 300 milligrams of caffeine, for example, spread throughout the morning, like between eight and two, you'll have like 30 milligrams left the next morning, like 8am. Really? Yeah.

34:30It really stays with you. You know, it was, what's crazy is like, if you have an espresso martini, it caffeine will, or alcohol will double the half life of caffeine. It's almost like 10 to 12 hours. So I think that's like the trendiest drink right now, you know? It is. It's funny. People don't even realize like that. You want to impact your sleep, dial up an espresso martini. Rebel vodka too, but I think if you have a rebel vodka, I think that's the effect that you want. But I think a lot of people are ordering espresso martini. It is super popular right now. I notice that too. Like a decaf, like, you know, a lot of times if you're in a nice restaurant, like they'll have decaf espresso, which is a way better option.

35:04That's a really, yeah. That's actually, I think that's, yeah, but people are not doing it for I never trust it, though. I'm always like, is it really decaf? Does decaf also have caffeine in it a little bit? It depends. Yeah, probably a little bit, but 200 milligrams. Well, you're not going to have that much, but 100 milligrams in a shot of espresso is way different than maybe 15 with a decaf. They take a majority of it out. I mean, how much caffeine do you allow yourself a day? Do you drink a lot? Yeah, like probably 300 milligrams. But I try to really front load it. So I'm going to do it. It's like 8 a.m., yeah.

35:36How about other things that can help sleep? I know you're a massive sauna person. Love it. Any heat. Heat, me too. I love heat. Yeah, sauna is a luxury. Most people can't have a sauna at their house, I would say. But any heat. Sauna has awesome health benefits, Alzheimer's, dementia. But for isolated sleep, it's really just about heating your body up and warming up your core temperature. So hot tub, bath, hot shower, all those are just as effective. And they can be really useful. Which is interesting because that's like a – like isn't that kind of like counter to what people say? Like you should be sleeping in a cold environment, but your body's core temperature should be higher with the sauna?

36:19Well, so what it does is if you raise your core temperature, your body reacts. It like overcompensates. It's like I need to cool myself down. So it starts to cool itself down. The other thing that happens is it dilates your blood vessels in your extremities, so your arms and your legs. So there's a rush of blood flow to your extremities, which cools your torso, your core down, and you're able to drop your temperature faster. So you go from like a really high body temperature, and then you go from that, this great blood flow, into a cool room, and you cool down super quickly and are able to fall asleep fast.

36:50I like that. So it's like a reverse reaction. And I should tell people, like, by the way, you don't have to have an expensive sauna at your house. No. But I have this one here. I have like an indoor portable one. I have one outside too. I have a big one too. I was going to say, that's quite the combo. I have a combo because I'll tell you why. I like this one because, shout out to Therasage because it's amazing. It's an infrared indoor sauna. It's like a little area because I can keep my head out of it. And so it doesn't ruin my hair. The hair. Right. Or my eyelashes when I have them. So this just gets my body sweaty and sweating.

37:26Yeah. I'm a traditionalist. I go for the old school hot sauna. I know. Well, you have like, yours is like crazy. You have a barrel, right? I have two. I have the new cabin by Sisu, and then I have the barrel. What do you mean a cabin? What do you mean? It's like a square. They just came out that has glass on the front. That's what I shoot the podcast in because of the glass. It has white. I couldn't shoot in the barrel because it's so dark. Oh, that's so sad that you have that. So how hot does that one get? Same, 230. It rips. Can't it like burn your brain or overheat your brain? I'm not even joking.

38:00Yeah, you don't want to stay in like way too long. Well, how long can you stay in that? At 2.30, I mean, 10 minutes would be really, really hard. It's also in that one, you're a little higher. So like, you know, heat rises. So if you're up a step, your whole body is in like the really hot air as opposed to a barrel. You're on the ground. So like 2.30 in a barrel is a little cooler than in like a cabin style. Holy crap. You're going to feel it one day in the podcast. I know. What am I doing? So Todd actually started a podcast that basically he wants to torture people, literally torture people in the sauna.

38:38It's whoever can withstand, what, every minute in that crazy sauna while you ask rapid fire questions? Yeah, it's beat the heat. And then, yeah, so it starts at 160, ends at 230. Every five minutes it goes up 10 degrees. And so if you make it, you beat the heat. And then there's five trivia questions. How long do you say it was? The max is 30 minutes. So you're going to make people say 30 minutes into that 230 degree? It starts at 160. It gradually gets hotter. Okay. Well, by the way, at 160, I'm hot. That's a different heat, though. Infrared's a little different. It is different. Can you explain the difference?

39:08I know you're not here for saunas, but I do think it's important. Yeah. So infrared is basically heating up the molecules in your body, like some of the water molecules are vibrating in your body. So it almost heats inside out. It takes time for that to happen and heat you up. Where traditional sauna, the air is much, much hotter. And so it almost heats you up from the outside in. They both take time, right? Because air doesn't transfer heat very well. It just doesn't. Like it's like, you know, if you look at a thermos for the most part, there's usually air pockets in there or a vacuum because it doesn't transfer heat.

39:40So it takes time for your body to heat up. But in general, the same thing is happening. It's just the type of heat and mechanism, type of waves are essentially different. But the air temperature in a traditional sauna is much hotter. So it's weird. Like in a traditional sauna, you walk in, you're like, it's hot. And you know exactly what you're getting into. Infrared is kind of sneaky. You're like 10 minutes. In the first 10 minutes, you're like, this is nothing. I'm not even hot. And then it's like all of a sudden you just start pouring sweat. That's what happens to me. Yeah, because it literally is heating you from the inside out.

40:10But when you're getting heated traditionally, your skin is reactive to sweat. So it happens quicker. So I think your body is almost slow to react because its temperature is rising without the sensation of it being hot on your skin, if that makes sense. Yeah, so isn't that better for you, the infrared? It's never – like, so we have some really awesome data on saunas, 40-year-long studies done in Finland. And that's really the gold standard in sauna studies that we have. And so those were all done during traditional – or using traditional saunas. Now, that doesn't mean that infrared is not as good.

40:45But it just means right now, like, if you had to place a bet on what's going to work, we know traditional saunas work. I think just on the mechanisms of an infrared sauna, I'm sure it has the same outcome. I would guess there's a lot of studies being done right now. But the one thing that the infrared is not as good for is if you do contrast therapy just for the experience. Because like you said, it takes a while for you to heat up. So if you go in really cold water and you think I'm going to run an infrared sauna and warm up, you're going to be cold for a minute. That's 100 % true. That's why it's really hard for me.

41:16I have my cold plunge up there. honestly like doing that hot cold thing doesn't work with the sauna side at all it's like a joke like you need like 20 minutes to heat up oh easy i mean like for 30 minutes i'm like all right i guess now i'll go into contrast like doesn't have the same effect in terms of just in terms of efficiency yeah like uh remedy place has like a contrast room you can rent out and they put an infrared sauna in there and it's like i think you have like an hour and a half and it's like if you do one sauna and then cold and then by the time you warm up again the hour and a half is over Because you've got to be in there for like an hour.

41:49Well, I was going to say, if they have a room, why don't they just put a sauna, like one of those barrels in there? For sure. They should have. I think they probably would if they could go back. Well, yeah, because it's like, I don't know. In fact, actually, the one I have outside, for a while actually, because it takes so long to get to 170 where I actually feel it, feel it. I'm like sitting in there. I'm like, okay. It takes a long time. I used to actually, when I had an infrared, I mean, there's frozen cons. The benefit of infrared, too, is a lot of times you don't need to connect it straight to your circuit breaker.

42:20Like it's a normal plug. So I used to have one because I had it on a balcony when I lived in a high rise. And I put like an extra heater inside, like a space heater. Yes. And infrared because, one, it takes a while to heat up. And, two, like I do like the feeling of it being hot. Me too. So it takes a minute. That's a good idea, though. Maybe I should put a space heater in mine outside. That's a really good idea when I want to ruin my hair, of course. But that's a whole other. Well, not worth that. It's definitely not. I only go in it, it sounds so crazy, if I know I'm going to be washing my hair.

42:51Any girl can relate. Maybe I'll do it the day before and that day. So it's only so often I can really use it. That's why I love this indoor one. Foundation of happiness is purpose, people, lashes, and hair. And good hair. So if you're biohacking and if you're with any of those. Then it's absolutely not good for your longevity. Exactly. 100%. Stress will be added. 100%. Okay, so magnesium versus melatonin for sleep. Is there anything that you want to tell us about that? I love magnesium. You too. I like magnesium 3 and 8, like Momentus. That's what's in their sleep packs. But that was developed by some neuroscientists across the blood-brain barrier.

43:29So when you think about sleep and the brain and resetting, that's going to be the most impactful on the brain. There's a bunch of other forms of magnesium, but in general— That's a good point because people always ask me, well, what about magnesium glycinate and this one and that one? What's the difference? Yeah, it's net positive, right? Like all magnesium is useful. Some are more bioavailable. I specifically like the three and eight version because I do tend to take it before bed and it's a little more calming. I experience just because it's impactful on the brain. But I mean, blood work's always a great place to start too because there's quite a few people that are low in magnesium and it impacts so many functions in our body.

44:06It's not just like sleep or being calm. It's across the board of super important molecules. So it's like, I always tell people to start on blood work, right? And even if you feel awesome, like you need a baseline. And I think eventually, like a sleep study will be the new blood work because it's kind of the same thing. It's like, for me personally, you know, I had moderate sleep apnea. I had no idea. Thought I slept great. And then I got a sleep study done and had moderate sleep apnea. And the only reason I got that done is because I felt so much better doing the mouth tape that I was like, why do I feel so much better?

44:36So I did one with the tape, one without the tape and realized I had like full blown moderate sleep apnea, the doctor would have recommended the CPAP, the whole deal. Really? And I did it with the tape and it fixed everything. How long did it take? That was only two nights of one, two nights of the other, back to back, one with the tape, one without. Wow. So I was taping for about a year before I did this study because I was like, all right, let's really see what's going on. Because it changed my life. I mean, I felt so much better when I started doing it. I didn't wake up as much. I slept deeper.

45:07I felt way better in the morning. and I wasn't really positive what was going on. So eventually I tried to figure it out and it basically had this apnea going on and it was totally alleviated. That's my experience. I'm not saying that's what you should do, but my point is get a sleep study because you've only slept as yourself, right? Like you've never experienced what anyone else feels like in the morning. You don't know. And you're also sometimes not aware, like now if I don't use the table, wake up and my mouth is really dry. Well, I was always having that. I just was so used to having a dry mouth in the morning.

45:38it didn't even like dawn on me. And as a kid, I used to brush my teeth like a million times, like three times a day because, you know, I always didn't want to get cavities and I always have a cavity. And then looking back, it's probably just because my mouth was open all the time. So you can get cavities from having an open mouth? Yeah. Yeah. So why? One of the big factors in breaking down the enamel of your teeth is the pH level and how acidic your mouth is. So, you know, like water is like seven, that's like neutral-ish. And And anytime it drops below five and a half, most dentists will say that's the acidity is really breaking down your teeth at a fast rate.

46:11And a lot of times when your mouth is open at night, it's in the threes, like 3.6, 3.7 pH, super acidic just from having your mouth. So when you think about the microbiome of our gut, it really starts in our mouth. And that's all that bacteria is all being impacted by having an open mouth. And we're seeing more and more. A lot of dentists are on board with the mouth tape because, yeah, like the rate at which your teeth are getting broken down. It accelerates quite a bit. Wow. I didn't even notice. I didn't know that. Yeah. So there's so many other reasons to be using this mouth tape. Yeah. Yeah.

46:43I mean, jaw structure too. You know, like your bone structure takes shape of whatever you're doing. Our body's adaptable. Right. So what does that mean then if you... Yeah. You think about your mouth, especially as prevalent in kids, they've done studies, but when your mouth is open, right? Right. It kind of creates a shape that's a less structured jaw. So if your mouth is shut, But your jaw will slowly take shape and replicate that position. The more and more you're in that position. So people tend to get a sharper jawline over time when they're nasal breathers. Are you serious? Yeah. I mean, there's really cool studies with kids because kids grow at such a fast rate.

47:18It almost like accelerates the data, if that makes sense. So you can see a big difference. And you can almost, you know, once you start looking at people, you can kind of tell how people breathe based on like their jaw structure. So if you're a more defined jawline. Not everybody. Obviously, there's a lot of genetics. But yeah, it will definitely make a difference one way or the other over an extended period of time. Really? Which makes sense. I think about anything you do. Like think about your knees and hips. It's like you're doing repetitive motion. All the time. Of course. Yeah, it adapts.

47:46Your body adapts. The same thing. If you're in a position for eight hours a night, it's going to adapt and make it easier for your body to be in that position. So if you're like this. Yeah. You won't have as much of a. I'm more vain, so I'm curious. I won't have as much of a structured jaw. Yeah. Okay, well, sign me up. You sent me a lot of sleep tape. Just one pack, like one sleep tape. This is all you. This is the anti-aging formula. I know. What are you trying to say, Todd? Do I need anti-aging? No, but you're 20. You want to stay 20. I know exactly. By the way, anti-aging is like a terrible word.

48:17You should say pro-aging because we all want to age. What's the alternative to age? Staying 20. That's what I want to do. That's true. I do too. But like anti, like I'd rather like keep on living than not. We'll fix that on the packaging. But yeah, basically, you know, a lot of, especially females have skincare routines and the tape is tough because it needs to be on a dry surface to stick well. So we put, you know, collagen, biotin, vitamin E, vitamin D, aloe, stuff that moisturizes your skin. It's good for your skin in the adhesive. So it's kind of the best of both worlds. Also made in the U.S., only U.S.

48:50made. Thank you. Thank you for pitching it and promoting it. How about sleeping positions? Does that affect your sleep? Yeah, definitely. I think it depends on, the hard part is everybody has different issues. So if you have orthopedic issues, for example, like a shoulder, that's tough. Because the side, side sleeping seems to be, majority of people sleep on their side. It's also the least amount of snoring. Wait, majority of people sleep on their side? Yeah. Interesting, not their stomach? About 50%. 50 %? Yeah. How many sleep on their stomach versus back? Back is the least. And I think stomach is like 30.

49:27You're going to get different data. But about half is on our side. So what are you going to say about that? So it depends on your lens, right? So it's like on your back, from orthopedic perspective, is probably the best, such anatomical position. Like it's very safe for your joints. On your side, from a breathing perspective, is pretty efficient. It's going to be less snoring, better for sleep apnea. but when you think about like your shoulder and your neck and stuff there's there's kind of like a lot of room for issues so i think it's okay what's your main goal right and and then figure it out from there but rule of thumb like side sleeping is probably your best bet one thing with the side sleeping though is like i'm a big fan of like kind of like the squared off memory foam pillows because you want to make sure your neck is aligned which can cause some issues right so if it's a rounded pillow it's hard to really get the right height and having a correct height pillow.

50:19So, you know, really having that distance from your shoulder to your head being similar to your pillow height, right? Like my pillow height should be higher than your pillow height, right? Like if I had your pillow, my head would be tilted a little bit. So. How tall are you? Six three. That's sweet. Yeah. Okay. So you're saying sleeping on your side is probably the most beneficial. Yeah. I've always heard that sleeping on your back is the most beneficial. Like I said, it depends on your approach, but from a breathing perspective, that causes the most snoring. If someone has apnea, which right now about 60 % of people breathe out of their mouth, that's the studies coming out.

50:55So the chances they snore or have apnea are much higher if they're breathing out of their mouth. So I'm just saying in general, on your back for a lot of people causes their airway to be in a more compromised position. Interesting. So I sleep on my side. So that's interesting. I feel like back was always promoted because from your face getting puffy. I was going to say, I think it's more of a beauty thing than anything else. And females tend to do better with it because they have a lower chance of snoring and having apnea, just in general. If they're on their back. Just across the board. It's much more prevalent than men.

51:32It's much more prevalent than men. Yeah, I can't sniff my back. I feel like I'm in a coffin or something. I'm just like... It's so uncomfortable. I hurt my back. And for a while, that was the only way I could sleep. And it was pretty torturous. What happens if you wear a mouth guard? Can you wear a mouth guard with this tape? I guess that's fine, right? Yeah, there are a lot of people that do that, double it up. Yeah, because a mouth guard is kind of like – some people have a hard – you know, you can't really control your mouth when you're sleeping. So sometimes it moves around. So this can be useful to combine with it.

51:59Because I'm a grinder. I'm sure you are too. The tape is useful. We have a lot of people that message us that it helps with grinding, which that's – like I wasn't, you know, 100 % certain about because, you know, it doesn't really totally, like, make sense. would fix it but i'm talking hundreds of messages about that that helps with the grinding yeah wow yeah i think when i was asking earlier about melatonin and magnesium we talked about magnesium but i don't think you mentioned melatonin yeah melatonin's uh it's tricky right like it's a it's wild it's a hormone right so it's it's right producing our body but how did melatonin become this idea that melatonin helps you sleep because i was like for me if it is a hormone how does that work.

52:42It's like a triggering hormone, like our circadian rhythm. So throughout the evening, it's meant to, like with the absence of light, it's meant to ramp up throughout the evening to make us fall asleep. But what's wild is like a lot in Europe and stuff, a lot of times you have to be prescribed it. A lot of countries. I know. It's a hormone. There's not a lot of hormones you can just grab over the counter. And the good thing is with it though, there's like not a ton of negative side effects from like taking it. I think that's why it's so readily available. But why not? Like why is there – if it is a hormone, shouldn't there be side effects with it?

53:16Yeah. The receptors, like the way it's absorbed, it's like when you have too much, it's not like it throws you all in a whack like a testosterone or estrogen. It just goes unused. And some people are using like crazy amounts of it nowadays. But the reason I tend to shy away from it is not because of the results. More is the thought behind it because everybody wants a quick fix, right? And then all of a sudden you're dependent on this thing and you think this thing is going to help your sleep. And you're not doing all the behavior stuff to actually create a good environment. When you think about melatonin, most people can produce a great amount of melatonin if they just control the amount of light in the evening and create a routine that winds down and they stop stimulating their brain.

53:59But people don't want that. They want a quick fix and they just go to like a pill or a supplement. right like that's why we don't have a sleep supplement is because i just don't love the idea behind the the thought usually people just jump right to that instead of thinking about like how are my stress levels like what's my routine look like you know what what is my day-to-day nighttime routine what am i eating what time am i eating all the things that can really impact sleep i just want a quick fix and also i guess with sleep tape though is that's not really a quick fix right because and boy you're not ingesting it that's the first part hopefully not I mean, yeah.

54:31That'd be weird. Yeah, I mean, I think what it does, you know, breathing is so powerful. And I think a lot of times people are turned off by breathing in general. They don't give enough time to actually like feel the difference. And so it's almost like bumpers too. It makes you nasal breathe. It makes you relax. And when people are stressed, that's just going to calm you down in general. A lot of people feel really relaxing because it's the first time throughout the day they're probably breathing out of their nose. And so that calms you down. And yeah, it also does create a bit of a routine, right?

55:00Because you can't talk anymore. Yeah. And it kind of creates this subconscious, like once I put this on, I fall asleep. That's why we love masks too, because you can't be on your phone when you have a mask on. Especially for college teams, it's insane. People are just on their phone, Snapchat. Snapchat until they literally pass out of their phone. But then the sleep mask creates this routine. They don't even really realize what they're doing. But it creates this nighttime routine just because you can't get back on your phone. Right. So like a couple of good things. is, so that's a great circle back, right?

55:28Like, in terms of ways that people, some ways that people could try to sleep better that we haven't heard before is maybe trying a sleep mask. I love the sleep mask. And the sleep tape. Yeah, sleep masks are, I would say, underrated big time because the mask, people love blackout shades. I know we shouldn't have light, all this stuff, but you can't take that with you. The mask is cheap, and you can literally replicate the environment anywhere you go. You go to a hotel, whatever you want to do. If you're an athlete and you go on the road, you have control. You took something that was uncontrollable, you made it controllable.

55:58So I love that. And the tape is awesome because I think just the breathing in general, when you calm down your breathing, because when you're breathing out of your nose, you're forced to calm down. You don't realize it, but our breath is like the steering wheel of our nervous system. And people don't realize how quickly it will calm your nervous system down and down-regulate it. You know what's also great? I just realized when you were talking and saying that, The sleep tape can probably be a really great mechanism for people with anxiety. A hundred percent. Like forget about the sleep part. Yeah.

56:29Just putting that on your mouth because it will force you to breathe better. Right. And when people have anxiety, it's hard to convince them like just breathe, like do this protocol. That's hard. But if you just throw some tape on, even if you go for a walk, it's insane. It's like this less, not invasive, that's not the right word. You don't have to be as intentional. And it just forces you to physiologically calm down. And you don't even have to think about what's happening. It just forces you to breathe in this calming way. Will you send me some more of this? Yeah, for sure. How many come in this?

57:0030. It's a month. Oh, wow. Yeah. And you use this every night? Yeah. I mean, I'm habitual. I literally, it was almost like self-serving. I mean, I created it for myself. And I was like, I know if I'm having this issue of not finding a good one, that there must be a bunch of other people. Wow. Okay, I have another question for you, another myth or non-myth. Like, is it true that everybody should get eight hours of sleep? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, the amount of people that can function off of six hours of sleep is less than 1 % in the population, yeah, optimally. And it's actually probably more.

57:33So they did this study last year at Harvard in Japan, and it was a pretty cool study. The average age, I think, was 30. They took everyone. They let them get acclimated to having the ability to sleep as long as you want. You can sleep up to 14 hours. So that's trying to find the optimal amount of sleep. So they brought them into the lab. They let them get acclimated for a few nights. And then they were like, sleep as long as you want. And the average was about eight and a half hours. So that's actually where it ended up being, which is more than thought. So if you're someone that's like, I really need like eight, maybe even more, that's actually not weird.

58:04That's the norm when we look at it. But what was interesting was almost everyone in the study was getting over seven hours of sleep when they came in. In the first few nights, most people slept 10 hours. So they were, even though they're sleeping over seven hours, they were chronically underslept and their body was trying to make up for it. So that's a good litmus test. If you ever go on vacation and kind of stress-free and you can sleep as long as you want, if you're sleeping like 10 hours or you feel like you can't sleep 10 hours, you're probably chronically underslept. Wow. Well, I thought it was the opposite because I'm habitually used to waking up so early.

58:38There's part of the circadian rhythm too. I'll just wake up super early. Which also happens. So there's some, you know, you can poke some holes in that, but in general, if that's happening. Well, because I'll tell you what happens. My kid for the last, he's now 11 and 12, another one that's nine, for like, I don't know, eight years of this kid's life, how I wake, he's my alarm clock. He comes into my room. He like basically lies on top of me and like, and just like basically terrorizes me. And he's getting, it's getting harder and harder because he's getting bigger. And so I'm so used to that happening at like six o 'clock.

59:12that even if I have a night to myself or I'm on a holiday or whatever, I'm traveling for work, I'll still just pop my eyes open because I'm used to that behavior. Even though I am, by the way, I am underslept. Because I've conditioned myself to think that, oh, yeah, as long as I got six and a half hours, at least I didn't get four. But I'm exhausted. Yeah, I mean, the other thing with that study is they didn't know what time it was or couldn't see any light outside. So that has an impact too. Like if you start – your circadian rhythm is triggered by the light. So you take that out of the equation.

59:45But yeah, if you're always tired, we got to do something about it. I know. I mean like this is the thing, right? You're pretty high energy for being always tired. Maybe I don't want you to sleep. I know. I don't know if I want to be around for that. See? I think that we all – I think people in general, what we do is we adapt to what we know, like to what our circumstances, right? Sure, definitely. Like you don't know what you don't know, right? Like, all I know is that I get about six and a half to seven hours of sleep, which, you know, I just kind of like, I don't, like, for an example, like, until you have something that's much better, you didn't know what you were missing.

1:00:18Yeah. Right? Also, ignorance is bliss with sleep sometimes. Some of the people that know the most about sleep sleep the worst because they think about it too much. So, like, if you're sleeping well, like, don't go down this rabbit hole trying to figure it and do all this stuff. Like, keep that positive association. And if you can fall asleep fast, keep doing your thing. And also relationships, super important. If you have personal relationships that are fulfilling and satiating. One thing to point out with relationships, though, is that's a huge issue a lot of times in relationships is just waking each other up.

1:00:52So memory foam mattress, easy fix. If your partner's waking up three times and you're waking up three times, all of a sudden that's six times if you have a mattress that mounts you around. So having something that doesn't transfer force is a useful tool. Oh, that's a great idea. So have a different, what kind of mattress do people use? Any memory foam, you know. Memory foam mattresses. I love memory foam mattresses because, like I said, like I could bounce on my side of the bed and Katie wouldn't feel anything. I'm writing that down. Yeah. That makes a big difference. Huge difference. How about, okay, and you also said something about a pillow.

1:01:22What kind of pillow? I like a memory foam pillow too. That's kind of personal preference, but I think the reason I like memory foam is because you can kind of create that squared off shape. Totally. Think about your neck and your shoulder. You kind of want that filled in. And I'm a side sleeper. So if you're a side sleeper, you want that. If you happen to be a back sleeper and you breathe well, you don't want a very elevated pillow. You might do a down pillow because you don't want your neck forward. You want to have good posture. What is the number one question that people ask you about sleep?

1:01:49Number one question people ask, how many hours should they get? That's usually what I get. Really? No, it's usually the most open-ended question. Like, what's the best way to fix my sleep? and I'm like, I'm not going to stand you that long. Okay, what was one of the best questions that you've ever been asked about sleep hygiene that you were like, wow, you know what? That's actually a great piece of information I should share with people. That's a great question. We covered a lot. That's why I get paid the big bucks, not. A lot of people, I mean, the biggest issue people have is saying I wake up at a certain time I'm in the middle of the night every single night.

1:02:30Like, why can't I fall back asleep? Again, referring to a sleep issue. And it's like, well, if you're checking your phone every time, you're creating anxiety just by checking the time. Like, eliminate that and you probably are going to have a much better situation. But I think like... Oh, yeah. People always talk about keeping your phone away from you in a different room when you're sleeping. Yeah. That would actually give me anxiety, to be honest. But that's neither here nor there. Yeah, that's great. But honestly, like, I think if there's one overarching theme here, it's like all these things we're talking about that are physical things you can do for your sleep hold nothing to the psychology and the feelings associated with your bedroom and not overthinking sleep and feeling peaceful, feeling relaxed, and feeling like you're stress-free.

1:03:14I think people attack all that other stuff first and they're a disaster on the other side. 100%. And also vice versa, you can't have a ton of stress throughout the day and then bang, turn it off and go to sleep. What's your thoughts on different foods that are good for sleep? What would you say? Do people ask you that? Should I be having warm milk before I go to bed? I'd ask them if it was the 1940s if they said that. You know why I said that? Because my mother always talks about, you should have some more milk before you go to bed. Really, the good thing is giving yourself - She's actually almost 80.

1:03:47Yeah, that makes sense. But giving yourself a time gap from three hours before bed is great. Let yourself digest. And then the other thing that seems to be useful is just having like a low glycemic meal, meaning like a good combination of proteins, fats, carbs. Like when you spike your blood sugar, you know, I've seen with people like it creates almost this like reaction wave when you have like a ton of like sugar or something and then tends to disrupt sleep more throughout the night. So low glycemic is usually a good path. Okay. I'm no sleep expert, but I think that I am – I do have an opinion on certain things that we just kind of talked about.

1:04:21I know. It's shocking. First opinion, right? I know. This is, I know, I'm such a meek person normally. I think so much of this stuff, I mean, a lot of the stuff that you, that's again, like I don't want to repeat myself, but I think a lot of the stuff that you said was you take a different approach to sleep, which is what I really like about you. And I think a lot of this stuff is emotional, psychological stuff. And so like people have to do a trial and error, you know, like what works for you. People can say to me all day, well, don't eat three hours before you go to sleep and don't have fruit because the sugar, blah, blah, blah.

1:04:53But guess what? I like eating my apples before I go to bed and it makes me feel good and it makes me feel comforted. So guess what? I'm going to eat my apple and then I'll fall asleep better knowing that my stomach is yummy and full. Versus feeling that I'm depriving myself and starving and going to bed with an empty stomach where I'm thinking all the time, I'll wake up at night and be like, I'm hungry and I'll go downstairs and eat if I don't feel like I ate enough before. So like, I think a lot of this is know thyself. Know like what works for you. Try some things. kind of like give yourself some grace, you know, like look at your life in lots of different ways and see what is actually not working for you and why you're maybe staying up all night or not being able to fall asleep and work on those things.

1:05:34And I hate to say it, but a lot of these things in the wellness space is not rocket science. You know, we try to make these things so much more complicated than it really is. We've tried to make sleep more complicated, nutrition more complicated, all of it more complicated versus just like being a real person and just like, like looking at your life and being like, am I happy with my life? What do I like about my life? What do I don't like? What I, what don't I like about my life? And like tweak it as you go and not to be so hard on yourself. You'll be much happier in the long run. Yeah. And, and, and, and if you have a poor night's sleep, you're here, you've survived many poor nights of sleep and you're going to be fine.

1:06:12You're going to get through the next day and you have another shot at it tomorrow night. Exactly. Like I know that what, you know, it's going to be like, oh, even in clips, like weight gain and bad sleep, like you're not going to become morbidly obese by having a bad night's sleep. Will it be helpful to you if you're someone who's struggling with weight to try to get more sleep? Yes. So just like try to get like another hour or two of sleep, you know, but guess what? That is not enough to like get you super fit also. It's just another thing that can help you, you know, get, you know, to... Disgreases the skids a little bit.

1:06:48Exactly. It allows you, lubricates the situation a little bit. Exactly. Both of those are correct. But if you're even listening to this, you probably have enough awareness that you're probably doing the right things to get better sleep, and it just got to give it some time and give yourself some grace, and you'll get there. Nothing... Sleep is one of those things where, like you said, it's psychological. So, like, you're not going to listen to this, implement five things, and then have an immediate fix. No. Your body has to get used to it. It takes time and you start to get the psychology and associating that with sleep and you'll be in a good place.

1:07:19But yeah, grace is powerful. And sleep should be something that's... Stress and sleep should be nothing associated in your life. They should be the opposite side of the spectrum. You should be so excited to go to bed because that's the one place where you feel like everything kind of melts away. Or because you're just tired and need to go to sleep. Well, I was going to say, we didn't talk about it, but I want to talk about a great sleep tool is there is so much truth to like wearing yourself out. exercising, even like we just found out not too long ago, exercise is net positive. It used to even be like, don't exercise close to bedtime.

1:07:50All the new data that came out, it's all net positive for sleep. Now, different types of exercise affect our different sleep cycles and when we do it, whatever, but it's all net positive. So even if it's right before bed, you're better off moving than not doing anything. There's no negative outcome that happens from working out or exercise. I am like literally a broken record when it comes to this because whenever someone asks me a question, I just say, exercise, workout. Like if you are mad, go exercise. If you're anxious, go exercise. If you are depressed, go exercise. If you need to let out some steam, go exercise.

1:08:25It's actually the best drug, antidepressant. Oh, it's so good. Anything else? You know what's crazy about sleep though? A lot of people have problems sleeping. But when you think about health and wellness, exercise is hard. It's not easy. Eating good is hard. A lot of this stuff is difficult. Sleep is like the most enjoyable thing of all these things. Everyone's so resistant to like jumping on board that sleep should be prioritized and all these people. I'm like, why are we fighting the one thing that everyone likes? I know. Well, I think it's because like, again, like sometimes they even say like the more energy you put on something or the more you ruminate about it.

1:09:01Like that's why even therapy is, it could be problematic. There's a lot of research now on that, right? Because the more you ruminate on your own, right? The more you ruminate on your own problems, it actually gets you deeper down that rabbit hole and that black hole of angst and unhappiness. Number one symptom of depression is talking about your problems. Say that again. The number one symptom of depression is talking about your problems. Exactly. And I would say the number one issue or the number one symptom of a sleep problem is talking about how bad you sleep and thinking about it. 100%. I'm a big believer in that.

1:09:35And that's why when people like, I'm living in the mecca of therapy land here. What did somebody tell me? Like, do you go to therapy for life or do you live to go to therapy? That is such a great thing. I will tell you, in LA, you live to go to therapy. This person lived in LA. This person lived in LA too. I'm from Canada. I come from a smaller town where, and also maybe it's a time we, I'm like a latchkey kid. I grew up in the 80s. I feel like we kind of just have to figure shit out. And there's, I mean, I think that's a lost art. And I think I was on the tail end of that, like generation of like, I was still like, you kind of, you didn't really talk about stuff, but you just press forward.

1:10:17But when you look at like all the data coming out, it's like, there is a huge advantage to just kind of figuring out your problems and emotion. And I think there's like the pendulum swung way far. Way too far. And we're going to come back to the middle. But I think you need to be able to work through things and figure things out. And it's okay that you are, it's normal to feel anxious. Like when you care about something, you're going to be anxious. And that's a great feeling to have as a reason for it. But it's like, just because you feel a little uncomfortable doesn't mean there's a clinical issue going on.

1:10:41Absolutely. That's the thing. Again, just because you feel uncomfortable does not mean it's a clinical issue. And that's what's happening, especially where I live in Los Angeles, New York, or anybody where the socioeconomic level is higher. It's like, oh, I have a problem. Maybe run to therapy. You know, if I told you how much therapists charge here and like, you can't even get in. You cannot even get in to see a therapist around here. And if you do, you're paying like$400 for a 50-minute session. It is literally absurd to me. And you can't even make an appointment. And so to me, I feel like, number one, the fact that you're preying on people's discomfort is, I think, an awful thing.

1:11:22And no one's wanting to take insurance, which is a whole other podcast altogether. But the other thing is, I think this idea of running to therapy to try to figure out your problems or focusing on your problems too much, the sleep, whatever the thing is, is part of the problem as well. I agree. We'll have athletes that come to us and like, before races, I get super nervous and I can't, you know, I'm kind of shaky. I'm like, yeah, like you care about it and you want to do well. That's a great feeling. Exactly. Like you should be anxious. And I think it's a skill of almost becoming comfortable with that feeling and adapting and getting used to it and almost leveraging it for positive.

1:12:02Some of that cortisol and anxiety is meant to give you energy. That's why it happens. It's like if a lion came after us, it's meant to give us energy to get away. It's the same feeling of emotion in something in our life. It's like if you care about it and it's a big deal, you can leverage some of that anxiety and some of that physiological response to actually propel you forward and deal with whatever it is that's giving you that energy. Yeah, 100%. It's what actually makes you want to do well. Yeah, for sure. It's like there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah. And now we've been conditioned to think that there's something wrong with it.

1:12:34Yeah, if you're really trying to reach your potential, you should kind of feel a little anxious like all the time. There should be a little touch of like, can I pull this off? You know, this is a lot to take on. This is, you know, pretty advantageous. Like, I don't know if I can, I don't know if I can, you know, do all these things. And that's probably a sign that you're pushing yourself. Yeah. And it's like a healthy amount. Because otherwise you're just stagnating and just kind of living in your comfort zone of good enough. Like, oh, I can do this status quo. Yeah. Right. How do you know what you don't know of what you can do and what you can accomplish if you don't at least try to make an attempt at it?

1:13:07Right. And that's really, you want to talk about not being happy. That's the absence of happiness. When you really have no feelings of being uncomfortable and like you're pushing yourself and you're overwhelmed. And it's just coasting. A hundred percent agree with you. Well, this was fun. Thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. Maybe we can do this again. I've been trying to be cool enough for a long time. I know. I've been working on it. You made it. I've tried to step my game up. You've become cool enough. I don't wear nicer clothes, so I try to step my game up. I know.

1:13:32You got dressed up. I usually wear gym clothes like 99 % of the time. Really? So you did this for me? I did. Wow. I should be very flattered, and I am. That's very nice. You look very gentlemanly and very professional. Appreciate it. Yeah. You're welcome. Thank you. Bye.