Episode 419: Vanessa Van Edwards: The Power of Body Language and Charisma for Effective Communication

24:05That's the ideal. We want to be able to just close enough where if we wanted to touch, we could. And we judge that for intimacy. The problem is on video calls, all the space goes away. Right. Because there's no actual people. So what happens is people get really close to their camera and we accidentally go into the intimate zone, which is zero to 18 inches away. Yeah. Tell us what the four – you see in the book too. Yes. Yes. So the four zones are the public zone, which is about over seven feet away. That's like, I don't know you. I can wave to you, but I couldn't talk to you. Then is the social zone, five to seven feet away.

24:37That's like, I can see you. I know you. I feel safe around you. We're not going to have an in-depth conversation, but I could be like, how are you? Right. Good to see you. Then there's my favorite zone, which is the personal zone, which is right here, which is about three to five feet away, 18 inches to five feet away, depending on what culture you're in. And that's a great zone because we can touch if we want to. I can see your facial expressions and it's still comfortable. Zero to 18 inches away is the intimate zone. We only like people in our intimate zone if we want to be intimate with them.

25:05So we briefly enter it for a hug and then immediately back up. If we're about to kiss someone, we're usually in the intimate zone, right? If we're really feeling close to someone, we're in the intimate zone. So we reserve that for people that we feel very, very close to. While on video call, if you are less than 18 inches away, if you measure the distance between your nose and your camera and you're less than 18 inches away, you are accidentally going into people's intimate zones, which is triggering too much. Even though there's a computer in the middle of you. There's an instinct. And this is why if people are really close to their camera, you're like, whoa, whoa, back up.

25:38It's a digital close talker. It's still the same alarm. It's still the same alarm. Yes. What I don't understand, and that makes sense, that's really great. Those are great tips for people because we're doing Zoom now. And by the way, measure. Just take a measuring tape and measure the distance between your nose and your camera. And your camera. Yeah, that's it. what I was going to say is how about in terms of the lighting, all that, that doesn't matter, right? People are not like, is that too in depth? No, I do think it matters. In fact, I would even say like your lighting and your background really matters.

26:08Okay. So there's four different ways we send cues. There's nonverbal. So our body language, our facial expressions, our voice tone, that's about 60 to 90 % of our communication. It's the biggest. So our hand gestures, our smiling, our eye contact, those all matter. Next is verbal. So the words we use. So saying, it's good to see you, handshake. I wish I can give you a high five. Exactly. Third is vocal, how you say your words. And we can talk about that in a second because it's a huge important for our video calls. The last one is imagery. Imagery, what's in your background, the colors you wear, the props you hold.

26:42So for example, there's a research study that looked at the background and they said by far having a real background is better than having a virtual background. And that is because when we see a virtual background, our eye is like, what's back there? I don't understand. Where did your hand just go? So those cues really matter. So yes, I mean, the basics are lighting from the top, right? Coming down at you is always better. Having cues in your background that help you, that serve you. Like for example, when I was presenting on cues, I kept getting the question over and over again, are cues universal?

27:18Are cues cultural? And I was so like, this question is crazy. I'm getting it all the time. So I took down everything in my background and I added a world map behind me. The question went away. Really? Just speaking with a world map behind me, it went away because that cued people to go, oh, she speaks around the world. Like that small prop. And so what I would think about is in your Zoom backgrounds, in your dating profiles, you want to create cues that either answer questions or attract the right people or detract the wrong people. So I believe for dating specifically and creating allergies. So allergies are props that are going to either turn someone on or turn someone off.

28:00Allergies? I call it an allergy cue. An allergy cue is like a cue that people feel strongly about that it's going to turn off the wrong people. So for example, I'll give you a really specific example. One of my friends was dating forever. She went on so many bad first dates, bad first two or three dates. could not find the right person. I looked at all of her pictures. They were all very flattering, very beautiful. But the problem is, is they were too bland. And one of the problems is she's a vegan. And that would come up on the first, second date. And if you're a vegan, you're either really into that or you're not into that.

28:29Very few people feel kind of the middle. That's so true. Right. So I said to her, I want you, I bought her a sweatshirt that said, if you're not nice to animals, I'll kill you. Okay. That's what the sweatshirt said. Because that's how she feels. She's like, this is so extreme. I was like, I want you to wear it. I I want you to wear it in your very first profile picture because it's either going to turn someone on real hardcore or they're going to be like allergy. Yeah. That's so true. Right. That's what you mean by allergy. Yes. So I want you to create props that are allergic to your wrong people.

28:58Right. That's a great idea. Like our brand is called Science of People. I purposely chose science as an allergy. There are certain people who are like, I don't like science. You're not my person. Right. You're not going to like my book. Science is in almost every cover marketing in my book because if you don't like science, it's an allergy for you. If you like science, you're like, yes, data. Who wouldn't want to have data and science backing these things? Not my people. Do they want like a bobblehead just wandering around just saying, my opinion is. They want funny stories. And we have some of those, but like, you got to like data, you know?

29:30So why don't they get an Archie magazine? Archie comment. I agree. I agree. You know, like tell them, go get your Archie magazine. No, it's true. Like, I mean, And especially with this type of information, you want to have some kind of legitimate science backing of it, right? I agree, but not everyone does. And so I would think about like for your personal brand, for your professional brand, for your LinkedIn profile. Like, for example, if you want to get a job in a tech startup, do not be in a suit. A hundred percent. That's a great point. Like you should be in the clothes that you want to wear at your ideal job.

30:00So tell us about that. Let's talk about before I even jump into that. I'm going to forget. why do people when they see each other and they don't know somebody yeah they get into their intimate into into that intimate zone by doing that uh face-to-face kissing or the hugging when they don't even know them it's like uncomfortable like if you're someone who doesn't like to be touched or anything else isn't that too just like you just it's just like you're you're you're just assuming and it's like makes it can have that just be can't that give you the opposite effect So here's the thing. Humans are super curious creatures.

30:34Again, two C words I just love. Here's what happens is we meet someone. Even if we don't know them, we really want to know, we want to suss you out. And so when we get close, we're producing oxytocin to see, do I like this person? But we're also looking for pheromones. We're also judging, is this my person smell-wise? I'm going to tell you a really disgusting, two disgusting studies. But these change the way that I think about touch. They did a study where that exact question, they're like, why have humans evolved to handshake? It seems crazy. More than that. People are now constantly coming up to me and kissing both cheeks and like hugging me.

31:08I'm like, I don't even know you. Yeah, and you're like, why would humans, it's very dangerous. We don't really know someone that well to allow them into your instance. A stranger. Why would you do it? And then you feel like, and then for the other person, it puts them in a situation where they feel like they're being rude if they step away. So then you have to go about that. And then everything becomes, You're putting yourself in an awkward situation. But it's primal. Here's the problem. It is so primal. That's why it's hard not to do this because that was exactly the question they were wondering.

31:36So what they did is they found that what happens when you handshake someone is you can decide about four of the five personality traits from a handshake alone. So blind handshake, you can tell about someone's extroversion. You can tell about their agreeableness. You can tell how organized they are. So first, you can tell a lot about a person by their handshake. Tell us. About mine? About, I'm going to, let me. Shake your hand. Okay. Okay. So I would say that you are ambitious, organized, extroverted. By my handshake. By your handshake. Yeah. Because what was my handshake to you? Firm. Okay. Quick.

32:10And you only pumped me once.

32:15Let me give you, I'm going to give you the opposite handshake. Okay. You're going to see how you're going to see me as different. Are you ready? I'm going to give you that. I just gave you my real handshake. I'm going to give you a handshake that is not my personality. You're going to be like, whoa, this feels really different. Ready? because I've heard that this, I wanted to say one thing. We all know that that like, you know when you like give someone a handshake and they give you that like - Dead fish. That dead fish hand. I'm like, that person is such a turn off. I'm going to give you the dead fish.

32:37You're not going to like it. Okay. That's like awful. Horrible. Now I'm going to give you the other one. Okay, we're going to go the other way. You're going to be like, whoa, that's so different. Ready? Okay, okay. Oh my God. That's like, people do that. I'm always like, wow. It's like, there's so - So don't you think of me differently? A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

32:56for my handshake. So mine's the one pump. You know what? I don't even want to do, I don't even want to tell people because I don't want you to change who you are. No, I think it's brilliant. You have to just know who you are and own it. And it's, okay, that means, although don't be dead fish. Okay. What is, let's go over this again. So mine is, would you say ambitious? Ambitious, extroverted, and organized? Organized? Yes. Dead fish is when it's very, very loose and limp and we see someone as like A pushover, can't get stuff done, probably timid, and probably not organized. I also think that they're probably just lame.

33:33I mean, who does that? And lame. Like, who does that? Lame. And also, completely unaware, socially and self-unaware. How do you not know that's a shitty handshake, right? You'd be shocked. Okay, like someone listening is like, oh, I have a dead fish handshake. Well, change it. Change it. Okay, so here's what's crazy about this study. It's first they found out you could find out a lot about someone from their handshake. What's the other one? You didn't tell us the third one, the sturdy one. Oh, the really sturdy one when I like really, I may hand you. I like really made it strong. And I fast pumped you.

34:02Yeah, you shook fast. And you shook fast. Yeah. So I took over the handshake. So that's dominant. Dominant. Right? It's very imposing. It's very powerful. It's like, it's not even organized. It's like hyper-focused. Like you probably thought like, whoa, she gets it done. Yeah. Right? Yes. And so I quick pumped you and I held harder and I also pulled you a little bit closer to me. Yes. Yeah. The other thing we can do is, here, give me your hand. When girls do that to me, I'm very like, I'm always like very like put back a little bit. I kind of like that. I kind of like it. But when guys do, I'm like, wow, that guy is like.

34:33Oh, I love when people like dominate. I like that. That's like, oh, he's a guy. But I like girls and guys too. I like both. I'm like, yeah. Be strong. When a girl does a strong. Oh my God, I'm into it. That strong is so intense. It's so intense. I'm so into it. Like you're like, you're like squeezing so hard. So the other thing that can happen is this. Yeah. So like if I turn you up, this is a very submissive position. It's very weak for me. And so I'm saying you're in charge. Versus if I were to do this to you, that should not feel good. That's saying I'm in charge. There's certain politicians who do this.

35:03So if you've seen their politicians, you go like this and they pull you close and they go like that. That means you're in charge. Yeah. So if your palm is up, you're in charge. If you are showing your very weak part of your hand, that means you're submissive. Right? You're saying I'm weak to you. Also, there's more pheromones that come out here. So a lot of times women will be like, oh, it's so good to meet you. Yes. To like be sort of like I'm showing like my intimate space versus like, hey, nice to meet you, which is like much more I'm in charge. So that's some handshake science. But what this study found, which I think is insane, is in the 10 to 20 seconds after someone handshaked, some point in the interaction, they would touch their own nose.

35:43And they hypothesized that we like to smell what the other person's hand smelled like. And I cannot tell you, now that I know this, you'll never be able to learn that. Now when I handshake people, I have to say, don't touch my nose, don't touch my nose, don't touch my nose, don't touch my nose. Like it just happened now where I was like, don't touch my nose. Because it's actually a human instinct, I swear, to shake hands and then touch your own nose. Because we want to smell it.

36:10I love this. So you want to see how the other person smells. Yes. For a parable. Wow. And hormones and like you can learn a lot about a person by smell. It's totally subconscious. Like here's another, the other example I share about this in my TED talk, which I think was one of the reasons the TED talk did so well because it's so disgusting. Is they had two groups of people come into the lab. The first group ran on the treadmill wearing sweat pads. They caught their sweat. The second group skydived for the first time wearing sweat pads. They took the sweat pads, both looked identical, but two different kinds of sweat.

36:41And they had participants smell them. Disgusting, right? I hope it paid them really well. in fMRI machines. They found that when people smelled the fear sweat, the skydiving sweat, they began to feel afraid, even though they had no idea what they were smelling. When they smelled the runner's sweat, they felt nothing at all. So what this means is that when we are afraid, it creates a certain kind of smell and it's actually catching. It's contagious. So I think one of the reasons why we insist on cheek kissing is we're like, are you afraid? Really? A little bit. This is like silence of the land.

37:15This is so creepy. It's so creepy. Another favorite C word. I'm just joking. No, no, no. But that's what we're sussing out because we don't want to catch it. Very highly charismatic people are so confident. They are sending signals of confidence, and we want that confidence. We want to catch it. When someone is low confident, when they're sterile, when they're afraid, we don't want to catch it. True, true, true. That's such a good point. What happens if it's not about confidence? It's about the opposite. it's like, I don't want this rando to be like touching me and kissing me. It's not that I'm not confident.

37:49It's just like, I just don't want their body on me. Yeah. A hundred percent. So people who are less comfortable with touch, it's probably because they're like, I don't want to take a risk on your heebie jeebies. Like, I don't know what you're going to smell like. Or like, I don't know you. Yeah. I kind of like it. Like I kind of like to know what other people are about. Like that's my whole job, right? I love to think about it. So like, I'm going to smell you. I want to get close to you. I want to feel your hand. What if it's like someone like gross and not like, not very clean or I'm like into it.

38:18Like I'm like, no judgment. Like I'm like, what do you like? What gets you going? Really? Yeah, totally. That's my job. So, so you think if I could, I had an experiment one time where I just, all I did in the experiment was look in people's junk drawers, their trunks of their car and their medicine cabinet. It was like the greatest three months of my life. Like it was like the best. See, that would be interesting to me. Okay. I like that. But if you're kissing someone, it's the same as smelling people. I guess as it subconsciously is telling you something. Exactly. And now that I'm aware of it, this is a gross challenge for listeners, but next time you cheat kiss someone, just smell a little bit.

38:53What do you smell? I'm telling you, you're going to learn something. It's 100 % true. I guess, do we even know ourselves what we think of that smell? It can be very nondescript sometimes. I also think it's super subconscious. is like even I've known about this research for almost a decade. Like I've known about it. And even still, I'm trying to assess people out. So I just try to like, like take someone in, like I take in their handshake. And I just try to think like, what just pops into my head? Because I don't know exactly what it is, but I know there are certain things that will pop into my head that I'm like, hmm, interesting.

39:25That is so interesting. I'm like fascinated by it. It's so weird though. The book is less weird than that. I promise. No, no, no. It's actually, I love all this stuff. There's also something else that I heard that gestures are way bigger than words, right? Like way more impactful than words. Yes. So there's a beautiful researcher, Susan Golda Meadow, who wrote a book called Hearing Gesture. And basically her argument in all of her research is that gesture isn't just like extra. Like we kind of think of it as like fluff. Like we don't really think about it, but actually gesture is critically important to our comprehension, both as a speaker and as a listener.

39:57And that some gestures carry 400 % more information than words. Like for example, if I were to say I have a really big idea and I hold up like I'm holding a little a quarter, you're like, that doesn't look very big at all. You're actually more likely to believe my hand. Same thing with if I were to say I have three different things I want to tell you, but I hold up the number five. You're like, no, it's five. You're actually more likely to believe my hand. So our brain actually gives a lot of weight to gestures, yet we don't think about our gestures. And so one of the experiments we did in our lab, I've always been interested in gesture, is we watched and coded thousands of hours of TED Talks looking for patterns.

40:38And we found that the most popular TED Talkers by view count use an average of 465 gestures in 18 minutes. It's a huge amount of gesture. Whereas the least popular TED Talkers use an average of 272 gestures, almost half. And the reason for this is when we are listening to a speaker and they know their content really well. They're like outlining their content along with their words. And so when we're thinking about presenting an idea, telling a story on a date, showcasing our smarts, actually the best way that we can underline that is being like, I know my content so well. I'm gonna tell you this point number one and this point number two.

41:14I'm gonna tell you it's this big or it's this big. It's like, wow, they're so congruent. Their gestures are literally punctuating their words. I'm glad that you mentioned that, the TED Talk. See, I know you did a bunch of studies on that and also Shark Tank, which I'll get to in a second. So give me some other cues or points of what you noticed when you did all your research with the TED Talks. Yes. Actually, this brings us right back to which I forgot about, which is vocal power. I wrote that down. Oh, perfect. Because the gestures and the voice are so much more powerful than the actual word you use.

41:49Yes. I always think of these as opportunities. Totally. Imagine you work so hard on your ideas and your presence, your makeup, your hair, your clothes. Imagine if you just added these. It's like supercharging your charisma. So gestures is one. Vocal power was the other very clearly in that there is like a TED Talk sound. So I'm going to do it for you so you can hear it. There is vocal cues that we use. So vocal cues are voice, volume, pace, cadence that make us judge someone's charisma levels, their warmth, their competence. So like, for example, all the best TED Talks start like this. today, I have a big idea.

42:25I'm going to break it down into three areas that are going to change your life. And when they get to a statistic, they say, and now that took giant percent, giant percent. And you go, wow, that's a big percent. Like they even cue you of when you should be wowed. That is so interesting. So wait, because my TED talk did very, very well. Yes. And I started with - I wish I had just watched it. I was going to say, I wish you watched it. I know. I wish it. I know, I know. Did you use that voice? I started off by saying. Yeah, do the beginning for me. Okay. So I know the secret to getting anything you want in life.

43:02You did it. So if we were just talking back and forth, you'd be like, I know the secret to getting anything you want in life. But you said it in a TED Talk voice. So I know the secret to getting anything you want in life. That's a TED Talk voice. You did it. So if you, so you think, because when I, it's like when I did my TED Talk. Yeah. I left there thinking, oh my God, I bombed, right? Like so many things went wrong. I had notes on my hand and I was like, I was so nervous that I had like cotton mouth. I was like, they had to like restart it for me. I'm like, can we stop? Because I need some water.

43:37I could not even like, there were so many like foibles that happened. That's good though. That what I'm thinking, I'm curious, but is it because there were so many foibles that I came across very real? That people maybe were like, aw, that what happened to me, that big loser. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. So here's the misconception. If you go watch the TED Talks that didn't do well. And by the way, didn't do well is like 20 ,000 views. Still like a lot, right? Right. Go watch those talks. The misconception is that those people messed up. No. The worst TED Talks sound like this. Today I want to talk to you about a big idea.

44:12This is a life-changing idea. The last 20 years I've spent researching has been on the marine biology life and the series of the ocean. Like, it's like so robotic and so memorized. And actually what happens is the worst TED Talkers, they under cue. We're right back to where we started. They are so focused on the script. Right. They take away all the vocal charisma. They take away all their gestures. They stand there with their hands limp by their sides in the microphone reciting a script. Right. You're right. Because it's all memorized. And there's no gestures. So actually, the foibles, the vulnerability, we like speakers who use a conversational tone, a conversational stage tone.

44:51Because we're like, ah, we could be having coffee with them. That feels really real. So all the best sometimes, like Brene Brown, Simon Sinek, they're not that rehearsed. Now, they might have been actually rehearsed. But when they're talking on stage, Ken Robinson, it sounds like they're joking around at your dinner table. It does not sound like, today is the speech of my life. Like, they're not talking like that. So our vocal power, one, is not scripted, not under-cuing, adding lots of emotion, including foibles, including vulnerability. And second, and this is what they all have, is they use the lowest end of their natural tone.

45:26So the other mistake that the worst TED Talkers make is they would start on a really high tone like this. Say to walk on stage, hey, everyone, good morning. Today, I really want to talk to you about a big idea. And you're like, no, I cannot. Listen, click away. So the tone that you give is one of the most important parts of our vocal confidence. Is that the tone? Do you know that girl, Elizabeth Holmes? Oh, do I? Let me talk. Let's talk about Elizabeth Holmes. Okay. Okay. So this research is pretty well established that lower tones for both men and women are seen as higher in confidence. Goes flying.

46:06Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Say that one more time. I want that to be like said properly with me listening. So it's pretty well-established research that people with lower tones are seen as higher in confidence. In fact, research has found that it takes about 500 milliseconds of hearing someone speak to decide how confident they are. It's incredibly fast. Literally your first word, that's when someone decides how confident you are. And it's usually based just on the tone. I think that study came out in the early 2000s. I think Elizabeth Holmes read that study. You think so? I do. I think she read it and she went, wow, great.

46:39This is the clearest link to confidence we have. Women need to be taken more seriously. I'm going to take this study and I'm going to go so low that no one can question my confidence and my competence. So what she did is she went too low, right? She went to really low down here. So she was talking like this. The problem is we all can hear the inauthenticity in this. It's actually distracting. So when she was talking, it was like, what is happening with her voice? So I think she read that study and took it one step too far. Well, what's interesting, though, is she did raise almost a billion dollars with that voice.

47:10She did. And she was like a kid from Stanford, right? It worked. It worked. It worked. So what's interesting is— Again, that's a cue gone wrong. But these are cues that actually—it may be a cue gone wrong, but these cues are so subliminal that even if you know it's happening, it still happens. And like investors and employees would say, her voice sounded weird, but boy, did she sound like she knew what she was talking about. Well, 100%. First of all, does anyone have any video or has anyone ever heard her speak before the Theranos? Yes. I've listened to many of them. I did a little breakdown of Theranos.

47:44Yes. You can find clips of her on a podcast where her voice is much higher. It was much higher. Oh, my gosh. Obviously higher. Yes. Absolutely. Obviously higher. And also employees have said that when she was drunk, she would speak higher. I saw that on the special, on the documentary. By the way, if you want to hear the perfect example of her low voice, go listen to the first one minute of her TED Talk. It's bizarre. Like it's so low and it's halty. How do you stay that low for so long? Oh, my gosh. It must have been like exhausting for her. Maybe that's why she wore turtlenecks. It's like it helps to cover up her vocal cords.

48:15Totally. So in your first few lines of your video call, of your phone call, of your date, you do not want to go, hi. That is a mistake that we all make is we take in a deep breath and we say hello on the upper part of our breath. So we say, so good to see you. I hate that. So we listen to recordings in our lab. We've listened to recordings of phone calls, of sales pitches, of negotiations. And always the highest note someone has is their very first word, which is so sad because that means all of their confidence is given away in their very first words. People go, hey, it's so good to hear from you.

48:50It's true. But the problem is it's like a very weird blend because you're trying to be warm with a warm cue. You want to come across open and nice. Yeah. So you go high. Of course. Right. Remember that a high voice tone is not warm. A high voice tone just means excited. So like, for example, we talk to babies. We talk to puppies. Hello, little one. How are you? Excitement, not warmth. So warmth comes from vocal warmth. So listen to the difference. Vocal warmth is we hear happiness. We hear compassion. We hear smiling. And actually smiling changes the sound of our voice. We did this in our lab where we had actors come in and record different hellos.

49:31So we had them do their normal hello, hello. Then we had them think of something that made them happy, make a smile and say, Hello? So just listen to the difference with that. So this is my neutral hello. Hello? Here's my happy hello. Hello? Like you can literally hear it in my voice. By your smiling. Yes. Even if it feels like a fake smile. Doesn't matter. You can still hear it. Wow. Okay. Right? Because of the shape of my mouth. Again, we're very subconsciously aware of these cues. Yeah. We don't have to think twice about it. But if I were to answer the phone and be like, hello? I don't sound very excited to hear from you.

50:07No, you don't. You sound miserable, actually. And it would be like, ugh. Right. I actually would come across as less likable. We literally studied this in our lab. People rated the smiling hellos as more likable. We asked people to listen to these hellos. They had no idea what they were listening to. And they didn't know the person was smiling. And they rated the person as more friendly, more likable, if they want to hang out with them. So when I hear, hello, you much more want to hang out with me just by even that fake smile. So are there, and I think you talked with it in this book or the other book about smiling in general, though.

50:39Yes. What smiles are the most impactful or the most powerful to get what you want? So there's a, smiling, it's funny because it's sort of gotten a bad rap in the last few years. Like, it's horrible to be told to smile. Like, no one likes that. So I try really hard to not give that advice. So what I would say is either smile for real or don't smile at all. Here's why. Dr. Barbara Wild and her researchers found that when they showed people pictures of fake smiles and real smiles, and the difference is in a real smile, our upper cheek muscles are activated. So it goes all the way up into our eyes and these upper cheeks, right?

51:15And those upper cheek muscles are activated. And by the way, only one in 10 people can consciously activate them. So it's very hard to fake that. That means it's a real smile. We look for those upper cheek activation muscles. When it's a fake smile, it stays in the bottom half of our face, right? They're not activated up here. Like crow's feet, you mean? Crow's feet, yes. I've got a ton of those. Crow's feet are fantastic. The problem is Botox is a very complicated issue. And I'm not anti-Botox, but it's important to know if you're going to do it that it inhibits your emotional feedback loop. So when they Botox people's smile wrinkles, they actually felt less happy.

51:48When they Botox people's anger, they felt less angry. So they're actually thinking about using Botox as anger management treatment. So it's, again, not that or good. Yeah. They've actually found that it inhibits the anger cycle. But if you cannot make that anger expression when your eyebrows are pulled down together in those vertical lines, it actually makes your body almost goes, oh, my face isn't angry. I guess I'm not that angry. It literally makes you feel less angry. So they're thinking about using it for anger management techniques because it actually helps inhibit that loop. But for smiling, it can also inhibit your happiness.

52:19So what Barbara Wilde found is that when we see someone with a fake smile, we do not have any mood change. When we see someone with a real smile, we catch the happiness. So if you want to smile, make sure it's real. That makes you literally more physically memorable. It makes you more contagious. I'd rather you real smile or no smile. A fake smile doesn't do much. Okay, give me some other cues like that. My goodness, there's so many. I know. There's like a billion. I mean, I'm trying to think of like, oh, I want to ask you about power posing. Yes. Because, you know, wasn't Amy Cuddy who did this whole thing?

52:53Wasn't that kind of, I heard that people. She had some faulty science. There was some faulty science behind it. And the power posing is not actually something that you can use as— She's come out defending her work. So I highly recommend if you're interested in really learning about it, she's come out with a defense of her work, an explanation of what happened. So it hasn't been totally debunked. There was some fuzzy science in there, but she's come out— So it has not been debunked. She insists that her science was whole. Okay. I'll leave it up to you to decide, and you can go read her rebuttal.

53:22Okay. What is good to know, though, I don't know how accurate it is that power posing completely changes your testosterone. That was a big leap. That was the biggest leap in our research. I also think I love power posing, but you can't walk into a meeting with your hands above your head. So I like the idea of it, but I actually like to take it down a notch, which is just a very simple. my version of a power pose is actually just expansive posture, which very simply, the only distance that I care about, I don't care if your arms are up. I don't care if you're claiming space. That doesn't matter to me.

53:57All that I care about is the distance between your earlobe and your shoulder. The distance? Wait. It's my favorite distance on the human body. Okay. Really? This is the distance between your ear and your shoulder. Okay. Why? Why? When we are anxious or defeated, we tend to roll our shoulders up. We tend to sink our head down. We often tilt our head down. People who are really ashamed will often have no space between their ears and their shoulders. It makes us feel very protected. And so you'll notice people who are really anxious will sit like this. Like teenagers will be like, you know, we don't see any space right here.

54:29Whereas confident people, they want to claim their space. They roll their shoulders down and back. They usually use armrests. They usually have their torso open. They have their head up and out and their chin up. So the only distance that I care about that's the most important on video calls, on profile pictures, is I want this distance to be as big as possible. That you're not like this in your profile pictures. It's like the worst because it literally shows low confidence. But you're not going to start your video call, Hi, good to see you. And that's what people do in their first impressions.

55:02They accidentally creep their shoulders up. Hey, everyone, good to see you. That's a great point. So if you keep your shoulders down. Down and head up. And that's for everything. Not just, again, this is for like LinkedIn profiles. LinkedIn profile pictures. Video calls. Video calls. In person. How you wave hello. How you walk into a room. How you carry your stuff. I mean, oftentimes I'll see people with their laptop, right? And they have it like tightly in front of their chest with their shoulders hunched up. And I'm like, what are you doing? Wow. Yeah. You look small. So that distance is the only power pose, quote unquote power pose distance that I care about.

55:36That's actually the most impactful for your perceived confidence. But you said something. Okay. So when you said we were, when you were kind of imitating that one. How about a head tilt? I heard, I thought you talked. I love head tilt. Yeah, you like head tilt. Yeah. But isn't that still the ear to shoulder? So let's look at the difference, right? So if I'm going to do a head tilt that I like, a head tilt isn't a universal sign of warmth, it's a universal sign of engagement, it shows I'm listening. So if I head tilt, I still have lots of distance, mostly I'm just exposing my ear. And you see that as, ah, she's listening, she's open.

56:06Versus. Right. So you don't shrug those ears. Shrugging. You don't shrug those shoulders up. And that also makes it really hard to have vocal power. So if I were to try to give an entire podcast interview like this, you would actually hear it in my voice. It actually sounds smaller. Yeah. And it sounds weird. Exactly. Because you can hear it. We don't like people who take up little space. But the moment that I add more space, you go, oh, that's better. That is 100 % true. Yeah. Okay. How about this? I've got so many, but like, because I haven't even asked. I love it. I feel so. Okay. But how about, I have a note here, but I don't remember why the walk.

56:40There's something about a walk here. You could tell a lot by someone's walk. I mean. I don't remember why I had it down here. I don't know, but you can tell someone. But there's not, I don't, it's funny. There's, Biomotion Lab has some interesting things about walking, but I didn't even include that in the book because it's hard to learn it. It's hard to change your walk. Yeah, maybe I heard that. I think maybe, maybe I mentioned in the book that like having movement in your walk, like not having like your arms really stiff, like the more you have, the more space you take up. Yeah. That was probably what.

57:07Okay. So let's get back to the other stuff you're saying for the video calls. How about in terms of emailing and texting people? Yeah. So the last, the second to last chapter in the book is on verbal, right? Because so much of our communication is email. What we're fighting in verbal is sterile, meaning a lot of our communication has gotten so sterile that our words mean nothing. So we send emails like, hey, our meeting is planned for next week. I'll prepare the proposal for you and I'll get all the information over to you. Talk to you next Tuesday. Right? Like we get those emails all the time.

57:41It's hard to reply to them. We're burnt out. And texting also. And texting also, right? Hey, are we still on for next Tuesday? Right, right. We get those all the time. The problem is, is in terms of our brain, our brain needs more cues. If we have taken out all the cues from our body language in an email, We have no body language in an email. We have no facial expressions in an email. We have no voice in an email. We better make our verbal cues pretty powerful. And so that's why we're so burnt out on email. That's why people might respond slowly to your emails is there's not enough cues. It's like under signaling.

58:10Right. So what I like to think about is adding warmth and competence to your emails, to your texts. To a text also? Yes, absolutely. So when we are getting a text or email from someone or reading a LinkedIn profile, we're also trying to see warmth and competence. It doesn't go away. for incubation. So I can look at a LinkedIn profile. Actually, a study that we did in our lab, we had people come into our lab. I felt bad for these participants. They had no idea what was coming for them. And we had them take our Charisma diagnostic to see where they were on warmth and competence. By the way, that's up for free.

58:42You can take it wherever you want. It's sciencepeople.com slash charisma. So take it as many times as you want. So we had them take that. It's like a 10-question questionnaire to see where they were on warmth and competence. Then we asked them to open up their email sent folder. And we looked at their last five emails they sent. And we counted the number of warm words, the number of competent words. So warm words are words that are like the warm and fuzzies. Happy, best, together, collaborate, open. Emojis are warm. Exclamation points are warm. Words like wow, yay, fab, whoop. Those are all warm words.

59:15They make us feel like, ooh, I like this person. But emoji, doesn't it kind of also, yeah, it takes away the people. You don't feel a person's competent. Right. It's warm. Yeah. It's friendly. You feel like it's too, like, cutesy. Yeah. It's all friendly. Yeah. So we count to the number of warm words and we count to the number of competent words. Competent words are words that make you want to get it done. Productive, efficient, brainstorm, power through, goal, win, achieve, success, master, those kind of words. Statistics, numbers, prices, charts, graphs, right? So those are all competence. We count them all up and we could almost exactly predict where someone was on the charisma scale based on the kind of words they use.

59:50So if someone was highly charismatic, they had a perfect balance of warmth and competence. If someone was highly warm, they used a ton of emojis and a ton of exclamation points. If someone was super competent, they had either nothing at all or lots of statistics and big words. Wow. So in your texts and your emails, you want to balance the number of warmth and confidence words. Now, is that for personal and professional? I think so. Right? Like, I want to be seen as charismatic in all my relationships. Now, on emails that don't matter, like emails where it's purely logistics, sure, you don't need to do it.

1:00:20Right? Like, these are the emails that matter to you. Like the emails like to your boss or a client or an important email to your best friend. So it's not that you have to use them in every email. Like you wouldn't be like have the perfect hand gestures when you're trying to talk to your husband about the weekend plan. Okay, but how about if you want to text back from a guy that you like or woman that you like? And I definitely want to use it. Right, so give us an example of what you should do and what you shouldn't do. Okay, okay. So what I wouldn't do is, are we still on for tonight? Right, which is like often the text that you get.

1:00:49Yes. Sterile. they'll have a like hi i'm just making this up before hi you know like whatever like i don't know hi is good yeah like hey like uh you know you you say like don't even say things that are like social scripting like how was your day agreed yeah oh agreed so like for example i'm i live in texas right so i might be like howdy yeah okay just to be a little different you know cute um and i may be like so instead of are we on for tonight howdy so excited for tonight still looking good? So that's very different because I'm giving an interesting howdy, an interesting opener. I'm saying so excited for tonight.

1:01:26So it's a little dopamine word. Excited is a great dopamine word. It's almost like a charisma word. It's perfectly warm and confident. And then I'm like, still looking good for tonight? Still looking good for tonight is such a good psychological sentence. That's great. Because you're basically saying, I'm looking good. Are you looking good? Yeah. I love it. Okay. If you don't live in Texas, what do you write? Aloha, ciao, What if you stop no plans? Give me another one that's not planned. And by the way, you don't have to use all of your own first. You can, but like, yeah, you don't have to use howdy or aloha or chow or whatever.

1:01:58But they're great. Yeah. If you can, they're fantastic. If you want someone to respond to you, that's not like, if you don't have plans, but you want them to engage. It's using words that are going to wake people up. So it's not like, how's your day going? Meh. Right. So boring. It's, what's good today? Right. Even just like that very small switch, asking someone, how are you? You're going to get good, busy. Exactly. Or nothing. Or nothing. Right. Asking someone, what's good? What's good? You're going to get like, oh, what's good? What's good? What's good? Well, you know, I've just had a beautiful cup of coffee.

1:02:31Me too. We should get one together next week. Right. Like it's using more, being a little spacer. I mean, listen, you could be a great like matchmaking coach too. You know what? Back in the day, matchmaking was like my dream career. I would like love it. Oh, I would love it too. I would do personality assessments on people. I would do body language analysis. By the way, I'm getting to that. Don't even think you're getting away scot-free. I didn't even get to the hard stuff yet. I'm getting through all the stuff I have. Is there hard stuff? No, not. Listen, I'm getting through the stuff that's like, you know, very tactile for people who are maybe for work, for business.

1:03:06Give me a hard one. emails okay well first of all i have a bunch i want to talk about like even how um and i want to talk about the shark tank pitches like you analyze like 500 of them right 495 and you notice which ones why the ones that did well versus not yes okay talk about that and then i want to get into this i want to get into the science of personality knowing like even like opposites like if you're a neurotic person yes being with i found that stuff so interesting so interesting that would be batch making stuff for sure like we start and also just like in terms of like relationships in general 100 it like if you're in one and it's not working and why it's not working i think that was fascinating when i heard you i mean the personality stuff is the basis of all of our relationships right so okay so we'll talk about shark tank and then personality is that good perfect personality i mean i have all these other things i want to talk about the interrupter which i've interrupted you no we're talking it's great okay um and the science of popularity oh my gosh Well, you got to pick.

1:04:03Which one are we going to do? Do the shark tank, but do it quickly so we can move on. Don't stay on it forever. Okay, okay, okay. So we analyzed 495 pitches on shark tank, looking for patterns. Very, very simply, the biggest pattern was dopamine. In other words, the pitchers that created some kind of interaction were the ones who did best. So they thought of some reason to pass out a sample, to touch, to go into the shark's intimate space. Because in the shark tank, remember, they're all seven feet away. It's really hard to bond with someone when you're in the public zone. So we found that what would happen is they would cleverly think of ways to go very briefly into the shark's intimate zone or personal zone, and they immediately had more oxytocin.

1:04:40And you notice that the ones that did that were much more likely to get a deal. And also when they walked in, they did something. Their first impressions were really strong. So they had a grand entrance. Maybe that's what you meant by walk. Maybe. They were walking in. So from the very first moment that you saw them, they were walking and they were taking up space. They had lots of space between their ears and their shoulders. Oftentimes they would use some sort of a greeting hand gesture, like they would wave to a shark or say, good morning, sharks. There's something about it. Exactly. There's something about we like to be acknowledged.

1:05:10Sharks like it too. So when someone was like, today I'm going to pitch you an idea with no hand gestures, no open palm, we love an open palm. So that was like the biggest takeaway. Open palm, some kind of greeting, some kind of interaction, any opportunity you can have to go into someone's personal space or social space, not intimate, but social space, you're going to produce more opportunities for connection. So walking in, doing some kind of hand gesture was a big one. Open palm. Yep. Having some kind of interaction if you can and having a greeting. Good to see you, Sharks. So happy to be here.

1:05:38Today I have a great deal for you. How about one that, was there anything about like, I noticed a lot of them when they, I love that show, by the way. So good. Yeah. When they hone in on one particular shark. Oh, is that purposeful? Yeah. Yeah, we also found that if shark would say something like, you remind me of myself, almost always they were going to get a deal eventually. So there was something to like picking your target and giving them extra eye contact, extra nods, answering their questions first, right? Like, so it's good to have like a pick, like a target. Same thing in dating, I think, too.

1:06:13Like, it's always good to have like a target that you're going after as opposed to like, I will date anyone. No, you want to date the right person. Exactly. Okay, I know what I wanted to ask you before we moved on to these other things. which I think is really important is the priming, how you prime people. So that's exactly what we're talking about with the words. So like when you mention words like collaborate, people are more likely to be collaborative. So that's the definition of priming? Priming is when you set up people's behavior by priming them with the right cues, like a wall primer, right?

1:06:41Like you prime a wall so the paint is stickier. Words can prime interactions. So if I have an email or a text where I'm like, I'm so excited for tonight. Are we still looking good? Right. I am priming for excitement and good looking. Yeah. Good looking. So I love that. And then what was the other? Oh, yeah. All these. Oh, with a personality. Yeah, that was OK. Well, personality is a very big topic. I know, but I found it. You want to pick your favorite? I just find it to be so fascinating, like why certain relationships do well versus not. And like, yeah, with that, again, if you when you have this information and also this can be like professional relationships.

1:07:20Oh, actually, the book I give example, more professional relationships, even though it's really important for personal relationships. Right, because you can still, it's the same traits apply, right? 100%. Like, if you, so let's talk, can you talk about that? Yes. Okay. So there's a lot of personality tests out there. Enneagram is very popular right now. DISC is very popular right now. Myers-Briggs. Those are all fine, but they're just not super backed up in research. It doesn't mean they're not true. Right. They just haven't been replicated over large populations. The one that has is the big five.

1:07:52The big five has been replicated over and over again. It's like the standard in the academic community for personality. And I basically have studied that there are five personality traits that everyone has. And you're either high, medium, or low on each of them. They're like a spectrum. So openness is how you approach ideas, creativity. Conscientiousness is your organization, your approach to details. Extroversion, so it's ocean, O-C-E-A-N. So I'm extroversion, how you approach people. Agreeableness, how you approach cooperation and teamwork. And my favorite, neuroticism, how you approach worry.

1:08:25And so like, for example, I think you were saying something about like even some, like what, this is a piece of information I saw. Like you're saying, if you're one person who's very open, like you want to try like a taco stand, like down the street or how to like get to, if you want to like become, you know, fast friends with someone at a conference, right? Yes. You can easily see it. And you ask someone else and they're like, well, I don't really want to go. Yes. Those two. Open person needs another open person. Yes. Openness is like one of the most helpful. That's why I start with it in the book, which is if you want to know how open someone is, ask where they want to go for lunch.

1:09:02Right. A high open person will be like, let's try somewhere new. Let's go to that new place I saw. That tells you a lot about them. That means that they're driven by new. They get bored easily. If someone's like, oh, I have my favorite place with my favorite dish, my favorite waitress, and I know exactly where to park, that's probably a low-open person. Like tradition, habit, routine. The way that you would approach them for pitching a new idea professionally, let's take it professionally, is very different. So a high-open person, if I have a high-open client, I'm pitching on new. I have a great new idea for you.

1:09:34You're going to love it. It's going to completely change the way you interact. A high-open person is like turned on by that. They're like, yes, a new way to interact. A low-open person is like, no, I don't want a new way to interact. I'm interacting just fine. Thank you very much. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. A low-open person, I would say, listen, you're doing a great job with what you're doing. I have one little tweak that's going to make things easier for you. It's proven by research. It's proven by other people. And if you make this one small change, it will help everything else be so much easier for you.

1:10:03How do you know if someone is or not all the time? You ask somebody they want to go for lunch. Yeah, that's exactly a great one. What if you're not having lunch, though? Or like even in a... So we have a research on our website which has like, I call them behavioral questions. They're like questions you can ask to like suss out someone's personality. So like things like where do you want to go for lunch? Things like what do you do this weekend? I open person's like, oh, you know, there's this festival that we heard about. Like literally, so I'm high open. Literally this weekend, I just got confirmation of my tickets.

1:10:32I'm so excited to a ferry festival. I'm taking my daughter. I've never been before. It's the Botanical Gardens, and it's literally, they put fairy figurines in trees. It sounds amazing. I don't know if it's going to be amazing, but I can't wait. So I never got into that before, but my high openness, that would tell you that I'm into high openness. High open person, it's like they're trying something new. They're doing something new. A little open person's like, oh, well, every Friday, I have dinner with my family. Saturdays, we always do pancake breakfast. Usually, we have movie night. Routine regimen.

1:11:01Routine regimen. So that's going to suss out some of those answers. What's the other ones that you said that are not great? They're not compatible, though. You said highly neurotic or? High neurotics and low neurotics are great together. So high neurotics, low neurotics, they can balance each other out really well. Right. They found research shows that two low conscientious people in a marriage have financial problems. Totally. That makes sense. No one wants to pay the bills. So does it make sense? Okay. So is it true that opposites attract or not always? Not always. That's the cliche that isn't always true.

1:11:32Like sometimes high and low open people drive each other crazy. Like actually that's a really hard one in a marriage because high open people are like, let's try some more new. Yeah, that one for sure. That one's really hard. So that one's hard opposites, but low and high neurotics do well together typically. Not always, but typically. Yeah. High and low conscientious people drive each other crazy. The high conscious person is like, pick up your socks. Yes. Just freaking pick up your socks. And the low conscious person is like, my pile is our organization. Well, what if you have a high conscientious, but low openness?

1:12:01Like, what if you have like - Oh yeah, that all exists. Right. And that's the dynamics of marriages, right? Like you can tell, you can solve so much dynamics of a marriage if you know people's personality traits and personality ratings. So for example, if someone is, if I know, like I have, I do the personality matrix for everyone in my life, right? I know everyone in my life's ocean and they know mine too, by the way. Because if I'm like, okay, I have an employee, let's say, where I give them their personality test before I start and they are high in openness. Okay, great. They're going to want the new projects.

1:12:30I should give them new stuff, not as much old routine. They're going to get really bored. and they're high conscientious, I cannot casually assign them a project. I have to make sure that if I'm gonna assign them a project, I am ready to go with details. So like, for example, I have a high conscientious employee. And if I were to say, hey, next week, I really wanna talk about you coding our YouTube videos. She'd be like, okay, how do I do that? Is there a tutorial that I can watch? When do you want me to do that? Tuesday mornings or Monday mornings? And if I don't have those answers for her right then and there, it creates anxiety.

1:13:01So that way, knowing your people and how they're rating, you can predict what their needs are. Right. That's why I think this is so important, this stuff. Like, it's, to me, I think there's just so - And in matchmaking, if I was ever going to be a matchmaker, I would try to match people who I think are going to help each other. Like, some opposites are helpful. Low neurotic and high neurotic, they're helpful. Low-conscious, high-conscious, they can drive each other crazy, but they can also help the other, right? A low-conscious person can help a high-conscious person be more spontaneous. And that high-conscious person can help a low-conscious person be more organized.

1:13:31that can work if you're willing to learn. Right, right, right. You have to, I feel like a lot of this stuff though, like there's always, of course, it's never like an exact thing, but I find this to be so helpful in just in terms of personal relationship, understanding this stuff. I mean, that is what took anxiety away from me, right? Like my anxiety, my awkwardness comes from not understanding, not knowing, not knowing how to help my husband, not knowing how to predict my friend's needs, disappointing them. So when I felt like I had so much relief when I learned the personality matrix, I was like, oh, I know what she's going to want because here's where she is.

1:14:08You don't even seem awkward. You keep on saying that. I am. Ask my high school friends. They'll tell you. Really? Because you don't have any. There's no one to ask. But yeah. Come on. Well, that goes into the science of popularity. Yes. What makes somebody popular? It's funny. Yes. This is a great kind of sum up of everything we've talked about, which is under-signaling is bad. If there's one thing you're going to take away from this interview is under-cuing, under-signaling, holding back is bad. It never serves you. It gets you into the danger zone. Same thing with popularity. So they want to talk about the danger zone.

1:14:39The danger zone is when we're sterile. That's when we're not warm or competent. We're not sending enough cues. And that's called the danger. Yeah, that's what I call the danger zone. It's like, that's when people dismiss you. That's when people feel like they can't quite get a read on you. You're not warm or competent. Same thing in popularity. They want to know what makes kids popular. Now, what's funny about this, if you were to think about what makes kids popular, what would you guess? I know you know the answer to this. So what would you have guessed? I would have guessed people who are, of course, open.

1:15:10That are, actually, a lot of it would be openness, friendly. Friendly, uh-huh. Has an ease. Yeah, yeah, like casual, easygoing. I also would have probably guessed pretty or handsome. Oh, you're talking about, okay, for girls, I would say pretty. For boys, I would say athletic. Right. So that is what most people think. But actually, when they looked at it, and they did this across multiple schools, they had all the kids basically rate and rank each other and tell who their connections were so they could see literally who were the most popular kids. What they found, there was one difference. It didn't have to do with GPA.

1:15:47It didn't have to do with athleticism. It didn't have to do with prettiness. They also had them all ranked for attractiveness as well. Wow. It had to do with the most popular kids had the longest list of people they liked. The most popular kids had the longest list of people they liked. In other words, to be popular, you have to work on liking more people. Not being pretty, not getting people to like you. They had the longest list of people that they liked. Why is that and how is that? They found that those are the kids that would walk down the hallway and smile first. nod first wave first they were the kids who would say hey come sit with us like a ferris bueller exactly friends with everybody and so like that's i think that we're trying to what i my work my mission in this world is trying to fight against holding back like if you like someone just say you like them if you're with someone assume that you're gonna like them right i would always rather assume liking than try to be protective or ambivalent really no i mean i'm i'm saying really with the popularity stuff.

1:16:51It's like the more people, so the people who are, because you know that whole thing about like mean girls, right? Who are much more discretionary, discerning. Mean girls are not the true popular girls. They're not really the popular girls. So the people who are friends. They're known as mean girls. They're known as mean girls, but those are the groups that people want to become friends with. Now, when you did your research on science of popularity with young people, how did it change as you were getting older? No, for older people. Because you could be a not popular kid, but be a super popular adult.

1:17:25Or could you not? I don't know. I don't think the study actually looked into adults. It was purely teenagers. It was purely teenagers. Purely teenagers. But I do think this is the same. Like, I think, like, at work, the people who we think are popular, the ones who, like, say hi to us first, invite us out to lunch, like, they're the likers. The ones that people, like, yeah. Those are the people I want to be with. And so when I read that study, I decided in that moment I'm going to be a liker. I would rather say I like you and have you reject me than miss the opportunity of us liking each other.

1:17:53Yeah, absolutely. And that's good information for kids to hear too, right? It's like, yes, 100%. So that's like the kind of empowering. And I tried to write the books to be safe for kids and teenagers. Like there's nothing in there that would be like inappropriate for them. Right. Specifically because I wish that we had had more of this kind of communication work. Like I wish that we'd had an empowering way. Super, super. I think it's so empowering. I wanted to talk about a couple different things, too, like how to spot a liar, things like that that I think is super valuable. You talk about a lot, like Lance Armstrong in the book, A-Rod in the book, even like Britney Spears.

1:18:29So fun. Can you just give a couple different points of certain things? Like the how to spot a liar would be one of them. And then, well, let's just do that one first. Okay. That's a very big topic. I mean, honestly, I could have wrote a book just on that topic. On liars, yeah. Yeah, but I was like, it's so negative. I decided to only keep it to one chapter. Right. Because I was like, I was talking to my publisher. I was like, this could be its own science, its own book. And I was like, oh, the idea of doing a bunch of touring about how to spot that deceiver in your life. You know, I just was like, no, let's keep it to one chapter.

1:19:01So we did a bunch of research in our lab on lie detection. Very simply, we had people submit two truths and a lie to us. Yeah, I love this. So fun. It was like such a fun research to code. two truths and a lie is a very simple game. You say two true statements about yourself and one lie, but you try to hide which one is the lie. And we coded them to see if we could find differences. That was a lot of our lie detection research. We found differences in the lies. So I'll give you my favorite one, which is a vocal cue, which is that liars typically, on the lying statement, they asked it. So instead of saying the statement, they went up at the end of their sentence like they were asking a question because they weren't sure if that was true.

1:19:40And liars, that the research proves this, academic research, that liars don't believe what they're saying. So they're basically asking, do you believe me? Right. So I'll give you mine. Here's three statements about me. See if you can figure out which is the lie. I'm from Los Angeles. I love dogs. I'm a vegetarian. You're a vegetarian. Not a vegetarian. Right. That's the question. That's the what? That's exactly how they found it. It went up just a little bit. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what happened. So the lie made them a little nervous. So they went a little higher in their vocal power. Yeah.

1:20:11And they often went up their sentence like they were asking you. So that's the biggest thing. That's a big one. Yeah. Listen for that if you accidentally hear the question and reflection. And second, make sure that I don't want to teach you how to lie better. That was the other part of this. I don't want to teach you how to lie better. But if you believe in something, say it. Like a price or a timeline. Don't say, the price of my service is$5 ,000. Right. So the price of my service is$5 ,000. Because then you seem like uncertain. Exactly. So it's more important on delivery. Negotiations, asking for your raise, asking for promotion.

1:20:46Don't ask it. Say it. That's a great thing because when you have that voice, that octave going up, it sounds like you're asking permission. Exactly. And you're begging people to negotiate with you. People subconsciously are like, she doesn't believe what she's saying. Should I believe what she's saying? Right. Let's give me another one. Like the pursing of the lips I know is one. Yes. Right. Persing is another one. So lip pursing is a universal withholding cue. So we're like holding back. So like if I press my lips together into a hard line. So we found that, and Lance Armstrong did this in his Larry King interview, that liars will often lip purse right before or right after a lie.

1:21:20As if to be like, don't give it away. They'll be like, like mine would be, I'm from Los Angeles. I love dogs. And I'm a vegetarian. Right. You know what you just did also? Elizabeth Holmes did that all the time. Yes. All the time. Yes. She had so many lying red flags that she would give off. When you just did it and you looked like her, I'm like, oh my God. Well, if you purse those lips together, that's a big one. Yeah. And that's because I think she was constantly trying to hold it in. Okay. So is there any that are kind of, we haven't heard before that's like, oh, very interesting. I've heard the pursing of the lips before.

1:22:03There's so many. There's like, I would say, 14 different like red flag cues to be on the lookout for. One you haven't heard of them. Like when someone's deceiving you. I can actually give a myth, which is much more empowering. Yeah. There's a horrible myth about lie detection that when someone looks up to the left, they're lying. Yeah. When they look up to the right, they're lying. That has never been repeated in research. Really? Never been repeated. In fact, like do not use that because it will make you get false positives. lefties often switch there are people who process down there are people who process that's true and so you have to be very careful of the myths there's no pinocchio's nose right like if someone lip purses it does not mean they're lying right that could be their baseline i talk about this in the book like how you protect yourself so just keep in mind with light detection there's no like one single cue that means someone's lying there's red flags there's a cluster of red flags you can look for but not one single cue is there okay so i feel like is there anything else we can go through that you wanted to kind of speak about?

1:23:02Let's do the last one is the how to stop interrupting, get someone to stop interrupting. Should we do that as the last one? Yes, absolutely. Go ahead. That's kind of my favorite one. I know. I saw that one. I love that one. It's so fun. This is so practical. If you're interrupted, you have to know this. So this is if you are interrupted and you want to get someone to stop talking. This is also how you can politely interrupt. And this is also what you can do with an overtalker. So it's all the same skill, okay? So there's three different things you can do and they go up in level of aggression, right?

1:23:29So level one is when someone's speaking and you want to get it, where you can, I call it the fish. I call it the fish. You just open your mouth slightly. We know this universal cue of like. Don't people do that naturally though? No, especially because what happens is instinctively, if we're like, I want to talk, I want to talk. We go.

1:23:50We often will hold our mouth and just say, keep together. It's not your turn. It's not your turn. But that's actually the opposite of what you want to do. You want to open your mouth. Right. It works on video too. That's a great one. It sees it on video. Yeah, especially even if you're on mute, you can. What do you do on the phone? I think even like. Like breathing. You can like hear it. You can like hear it. I'm about to say something. I'm taking a deep breath. It's about to talk. That's okay. Yeah. Fish. Then the bookmarks. The bookmark is when you just hold up your hand just slightly. So like you just.

1:24:23Excuse me. It's also like a pupil. Like you're holding your hand up. so what you can do is like i bet you're just holding your hand up slightly you can also pair them together that's a good one too yeah um and by the way the longer someone talks the more aggressive you can be with this like literally like like the higher your hand can go like it's like the more egregious it is and lastly is a touch if someone's like so in their own world talking you can usually anchor them with like a right like a very very quick and it works yeah Yeah, it works. And by the way, if you've gotten to that point and they're still not talking, this is not the person you want to be in our conversation with.

1:24:59Yeah. I mean, a lot of people are so completely unaware. Unaware. That's what like a touch is the final thing. If they don't get the touch and they don't wrap up in the next 10 seconds, this is a rude person. It's probably a narcissist. Absolutely. So is there a lot of difference between, I mean, there are traits that are narcissistic and charismatic. Aren't there a lot that kind of? I think that there are. I don't know too much about narcissism. I haven't done that much research on it. But I think that confidence can be something. So confidence is closer to narcissism than charisma. But narcissists can be charismatic.

1:25:28They usually very much are. Can be. I don't know. I would be curious to see the research if there's like a bigger overlap. I'm looking here again because there's so many like, I didn't ask you all these other questions. Can you come back again? Yeah, of course. I come to LA all the time. I'm happy to. I mean, I have all these things. We can do part two. We can definitely do part two because like you have so much amazing information. I'm trying to like just give like just a flavor. Hopefully we gave a lot. This is one like I always like to kind of end interviews on this idea, which is, yes, charisma is warmth and competence.

1:26:03But it doesn't mean that you have to be like a robot. Like there are 96 cues you can choose from. So as you pick them, you get to kind of pick your recipe. And that's the fun part, right? Like we don't all want to look and sound the same. That would be horrible. So I think the fun part of it is like picking the cues that make you feel good. Like that's your unique flavor. And so like if everyone could just pick their unique flavor of charisma, I would be so happy. I mean, listen, you've been incredible as usual. That's true. You gave a lot. I love this stuff. Like, but it shows and you're like super passionate about it, which makes it why it's so good.

1:26:38Yeah. I'm not joking. You have to come back. Okay. I'm back in LA all the time. Okay. So this is like, I love all this stuff. Hope people like it. Hope people like it. Oh, of course. I mean, tell people, okay, the first, her book is called Cues. and like I said, the first one's called Captivate. So amazing, informative, helpful for any form of communication, really. Where do people find you if they want to know more about you? Yes, so I read the Audible books if you like my vocal power. So you can check Audible. It's on Amazon, wherever books are sold. I think it's still in airports and then I'm at scienceofpeople.com.

1:27:13So if you want to see some of my Q breakdowns, I do Britney Spears, The Rock, Justin Bieber. You can go check out my YouTube channel. I have a lot of fun on there. Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Bye.