Episode 465: Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman: Why Everyone's Playing Victim (And How to Stop)

27:29And I couldn't even, they said I couldn't graduate, I shouldn't be able to graduate high school, you know, when I was in high school. And so I was like, okay, well, screw you. I'm going to not only graduate high school, but I'm going to go to Yale someday, you know what I mean? So, yeah, but that was early on. And I have a whole chapter in the book about the underdog motivation and how that can fuel you. I want to talk about that. That's why I was bringing it up. Cool, cool. Because I think that the chip on the shoulder or the underdog motivation is a lot of times fire, the fuel and the fire to kind of motivate people who otherwise wouldn't have, you know, self-actualized.

28:04Yes. So do you want to talk about this underdog? Yeah, it's a big, you know, the most common sort of, the most obvious is like Michael Jordan, you know, who like creates enemies. So he has a reason to fight. As a form of motivation. But I think any of us can kind of tap into that motivation if we are feeling rejected. But I don't think it's the most sustainable and healthiest in the long run. I'm glad my whole life is not revolving around an underdog motivation anymore. I'm also glad I'm not an underdog anymore. Both of those things I'm glad about. Does that change, though? So can someone—does that happen often?

28:49Like if someone starts off as having that underdog mentality, and then as they achieve success, does that mentality wane? Well, I don't know. Look at—again, Michael Jordan, I didn't wane. But he's a one-of-a-kind, right? One-of-a-kind, yeah, yeah. It does tend to. Because how do we—I think this is the big, long question you talk about. It's on the cover of your book. But like, how can we discover in ourselves our greatest potential? Oh, you're asking the heavy hitting questions today. Well, listen, you didn't come here to just, you know, talk about the weather, did you? No, I didn't. Although, let's be honest, the weather's been kind of shit lately.

29:25I know, today's been terrible. But how can we, that's the whole reason why I created self-actualization coaching. We're actually in the middle of a six-month program right now. we're training coaches so that um there's so these coaches can help clients identify what is their greatest potential so much of it has has to come it comes down to this kind of existential humanistic perspective that i take you know where we have to get in touch with this destiny within us and some of us avoid evade our destiny because we think it's destructive um and some and yet it's teaching us things that we really should be listening to roe may the humanistic psychologist calls it the daimonic.

30:06He said, what is this guiding force, this destiny that has the power to overtake all of you? What is this thing? Sometimes when it has the power to overtake all of you, that terrifies you and you run away from it and you evade your destiny your whole life. But some of the most creative people have embraced it and have found a way to channel it for their greatest creativity. But if someone's stuck, right, and they don't know where even to begin, can you talk, do you have any, like even in your coaching program, what are some like actionable steps someone can take to even see what their potential is?

30:50So yeah, we have a workbook called Choose Growth. We have all sorts of things where you try to constantly get in touch with like what are the sparks during your day that really, you know, keeping in journals is a really helpful way of doing this. Getting in touch with, like, what aspects of your job are lighting you up versus what aspects of your job aren't lighting you up. Also, learning character strengths. And, like, you can take tests for free. Selfactualizationtest.com. I put up a bunch of tests. Self-reflection and self-knowledge is a great first step. You may have certain strengths you didn't even know you had, right?

31:25And so, first of all, I would say never give up. I would say always have this spirit of curiosity about yourself. So start there, that curiosity. And be like, well, okay, I'm stuck, but usually stuckness is a reflection of you're not really self-connected. And so going through the process of deeper self-connection, a lot of people feel stuck because they hear other people's voices in their heads. They'll hear their mother telling them you should do this or that, do you should that. Or maybe you think to yourself, maybe you ignore certain messages that are sending you because they're not societally acceptable.

32:07Or you're like, I can't make money from that. I would just guarantee you that if you feel stuck and hopeless in a lot of ways, there are so many things that are passing you by, signals within, as well as signals other people are sending you, that you're really missing out on, you're not paying attention to. There's some really cool research on the difference between lucky people and unlucky people. This is self-reported luck. And people who report that they lead really lucky lives, like in a psychology experiment, they are more likely to be open to new experiences and notice some good things that are happening during the experiment that the other people did not even notice because they're so focused on how unlucky they are in life.

32:51So much of this does relate to the victim mindset thing. That is. That's exactly it. So that's why this whole victim mindset is such a good thing to kind of like really delve into. Because I think a lot of times the people who are stuck and not moving forward is because they are stuck in this victim mindset. But they don't even know they're in the victim mindset because they can't see what they can't see. So that's when the whole self – that's why I was curious. Again, I've said this on this show tons of times. Like, if someone doesn't have the self-awareness ability or the EQ to even know, or they can be, or they just are not able to connect the dots, what's the first step for someone to even know they even have this victim mindset?

33:32And then you talk about how to, you know, the difference between learned helplessness versus learned hopelessness. Yeah. Right? Can you just kind of talk about both of those? Yeah, I could. Okay, good. There's this classic research by Martin Selgeman and his colleagues looking at learned helplessness. It started with rats and dogs where they were shocked, and there's some ethical considerations about that as well, but I'm putting that aside. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. After a certain amount of shocking, even when they opened up the cage, the dogs didn't realize that they could leave the cage. They had learned this sense of helplessness.

34:12And then they tried to extend this to humans as well. I don't know how much they, if they did shocking of humans. Maybe they did. But it sounds terrible, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm following what you're putting. The thing psychologists do in the name of data. Of data, yeah. But what they realized 50 years later is that they had gone completely wrong in humans. That in humans, the default state in humans is helplessness, but what is learned is hopefulness. So it's actually a theory of learned hopefulness in humans, not a theory of learned helplessness. And we have to remember that because a victim mindset is our default state of being.

34:52It's the easiest way to get attention, sympathy from others. Yeah, sure. When you're a kid, how many times did you lie to your mom about being sick? Or exaggerate a little bit like, hey, mom, my tummy hurts. I don't think I go to school. It's the default state. But we have to overcome that. We have to rise above that instinct. if we're going to lead a life with agency and intentionality and reaching our highest potential. So do you think the rise of social media, TikTok, Instagram, has made people's victim mindset even more out of control? Because now you're becoming like, you get a pat on the back for it, right?

35:40Yes, I do. Right. I do. So what should people do? Do they just not, because technology is just, it's going, right? And it's so invasive in our lives, right? And you're getting a pat on the back for it. How do we kind of take those people yet again out of that mindset into this whole empowerment mindset? By the way, do you remember when empowerment was a big thing too? That was a whole trend for a while. When? Women's empowerment. Yeah, maybe. Women's empowerment. That's a thing. You know, the thing is, I think that even with social media, this idea of like women empowerment was a big thing or like, but the obsession over like the trauma, like all the pages that are like obsessed with trauma or and even vulnerability, I guess.

36:34And authenticity is another one. They've override all the other stuff. So if you are feeling bad about yourself, that actually, you get brownie points for that. Right? That's what I've noticed. If you what, Sandy? You get brownie points if you feel like you've been put upon. How about this? If you've been wronged by the world. If you're wronged by the world. Look even like you talk about the activism stuff in the book. Can we talk about that? Yeah, of course. Okay. Can you please talk about it? Because I think it's great that you put it in the book. Well, I have a section on narcissistic activism.

37:17There is research showing that the more you identify with certain causes, your whole life becomes about just those things. And you feel entitled to special privileges because you have this cause. There's actually research showing that people who, they're called virtuous victim signalers, People who feel the need to almost 24-7 signal to others how much they've suffered, but how angelic they are. That tends to be correlated with the dark triad of personality. Things like narcissism, which we already mentioned, but also psychopathy and Machiavellianism. And this sort of sadistic kind of enjoyment in taking down others.

38:00So there are some darker personality traits that you see among some types of activists. And I should be very clear, not all of activism is bad throughout the course of human history. A lot of healthy activism has really moved society forward. But I think it's important to distinguish between toxic activism and healthy activism. Can we talk about the toxic activism? Yeah, it's not helping anything. It's just annoying everyone. Give me an example. Like you talk about in the book. What is an example? I don't know if I have a specific example. You don't have a specific example? Well, in the book, I talk about people who identify more strongly, like extremely with LBT causes, with environmentalism causes, with like a lot of the liberal, the standard liberal sort of things.

38:52So we often think about authoritarianism as just a right-wing phenomenon, but there's emerging research suggesting there is a left-wing authoritarianism that mirrors kind of in a horseshoe way. They both meet together at some point, both the far right and the far left. And it's left like 99 % of people who are in the middle kind of shake their heads like, what's going on here? Right. Because it's not just on the right, it's on the left as well. Can you talk about some of the things that you've given? These causes by themselves, there's not an issue with. There's no problem believing in rights for gay, bisexual individuals, lesbians.

39:35So whatever the whole rainbow stands for, don't make me say what it currently stands for. I think they added another letter, or maybe not. Oh, there's a Q. L-B-G-Q. No, L-B-L-T. And then there's a fight between should the T be part of it or not. Yes, that's the thing I didn't understand. There's a bifurcation within that community. I don't want to get into any of that, the bifurcation. But there's no problem having certain causes. But this research is showing what happens when you have a certain extremist mindset about the activism, where your way is the right way. Anyone who doesn't agree with you deserves to be treated poorly, even violently.

40:20There's this kind of way of thinking that can be very damaging to society. So what's the call to action for that? What are the things that people have? Where are the qualities of a dark triad, I think you called it? What's in that triad? What is those things? Well, that's the narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism. Okay, so then what do people do about that, I guess, is the question. Avoid these people like the plague. Well, I know. But it's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil, right? Yeah. And it's damaging to our society. It is. It is. It's also we have lost nuance, which I'm trying to do right now.

41:05because I'm the last one who wants to be quoted as saying that it's bad to believe in certain causes. No, that's not what you're saying. Well, that's definitely not what I'm saying. But I think we've lost all nuance because the loudest voices have taken over and make any other voice feel like there's no place for their voice. No, exactly. Exactly. So basically, though, you were seeing the victim. That's why you wanted to write the book, because you saw this stuff happening and you wanted to kind of like— See it everywhere. What is the other word? I love that you said something. Instead of saying the trauma, you gave other options for how to talk about something.

41:52Survival stress? Like survival stress. Yeah. Yes. Like you talk about how language makes such a big difference in how the, like how. I really think it does. It makes a big difference, right? Because if you think of yourself as someone who has trauma, you're going to act a certain way, right? Yes. Yes. I mean, how the self-talk, the way the narratives and the things we tell ourselves about the cause of why we are the way we are really does impact our empowerment versus whether or not we're going to have a victim mindset over something. Right. So how do we start changing the way we talk to ourselves?

42:28Start by changing the way you talk to yourself. Right, exactly. Because what happens in our brain, I heard that no matter how, our brain doesn't know the difference between what we say or what we do. If we say something, then our body acts as if it's actually true, correct? Yeah. Is that not true? Because I'm not the doctor, but you are. But I thought that's what a lot of other people have said to me. There is a whole psychology of self-talk and the real importance of how we interpret certain situations. There's a whole field of cognitive behavioral therapy that is all about do we catastrophize things?

43:09Do we see things in black and white terms? The trauma thing is just it's a word that has become exhausted. in our society because it's become everything. It's become this one word is now used to describe back pain, everything. Oh, yeah, there's a book out, Your Body Keeps Score. The Body Keeps the Score. It's an immensely popular book. Yeah. And it's become like a cult-like book. and it's like for me to even have a little bit of criticism over some of the things that are said in that book drives them crazy. Right. The ones that treat it like it's a religion, you know? But science is not a cult or religion.

43:56I mean, science, we have to look at the data where it comes, you know? There are a lot of limitations to that. You know, pre-existing personality traits matter too. Not everything is environmentally determined. Right. We don't live in a completely environmentally determined universe, right? A lot of, also a lot of our choices are within our own control that we just refuse to take responsibility for. You know, it's much easier to blame, much easier to blame that one thing that happened to you when you were four than to, at now age 50, take steps to lead a better, healthier, happier life. Right.

44:30Because also the rumination of it, right? Like you, because ruminate. It's a big part of it. It's a big part of it.

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45:24Visit livemomentous.com and use my code JEN for 35 % off your first subscription. that's livemomentous.com code gen for 35 % off your first subscription trust me you'll be happy you did what's your take on talk therapy you have some good questions thanks you're a great interviewer Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Talk therapy is good, can be good. It's like having a friend. Yeah, it is. That you pay a lot of money to. That you're paying for unconditional positive regard. Yeah. There are a lot of lonely people out there that often need a little bit of validation. There is a whole form of therapy now called affirming therapy.

46:24And I don't know how I feel about this. Right. No matter what Meshuggah you have going on with you. That's a Jewish. I got it right away. Meshuggah is like crazy. Yeah, whatever Meshuggah you have, you go to this affirming therapist and then you just affirm it. Don't worry, it's good that you're a psychopath. Don't worry. Affirming care now, no matter whatever you are, it's great. And it makes you feel good about yourself. I'm not convinced that's the best form of therapy, but that is a very popular form of therapy that's cropping up now. Are you serious? Oh, yeah. It's a thing now. It's a really big thing.

46:59So if I were to Google affirming. Yeah, yeah. You go on psychology today. You're looking for a therapist. Look, I'm looking for an affirming psychologist. Yeah. So people are literally paying for someone just to kind of affirm. Yeah, yeah. That whatever they say is. Whatever it is, acceptance, right? Now, look, I am a believer in Carl Rogers' notion of unconditional positive regard. but as even Carl Rogers made clear, acceptance doesn't necessarily mean liking or that you don't want to change. Self-acceptance is the first step to change. But change is also a good thing. And it's also, you know, if a lot of people are struggling horribly with depression or the experience of depression or whatever it is, and they're seeking, they need help.

47:42I don't know about how helpful the affirming part is, you know, maybe as a first step, but there needs to be another step. Well, also, it kind of reminds me of just hanging around people who just validate you all the time. Yes. Right? Movie stars do that all the time. It's like fast food. It feels good in the moment, but you go home and you're the same person. Exactly. And there's no growth there. There's no challenge. There's no nothing. That's right. That's right. So is that really something that people are growing? I would kid you not. Wow. That's crazy. See, I would think that also just over, like, and I'm sure you, we both, we all know people who have been going to the same therapist for 20 years, twice a week, once a week.

48:27And where, like, at what point is it just like, you know, a bad habit that you're spending money on, right? Because, and, or, and the rumination of talking about your problem. And, you know, when, when people go to a therapist, it's like, They put a label on you, or a psychiatrist, oh yeah, you have your OCD and ADD. And now that you think that you are these things, you walk through life, this goes back to the beginning of the podcast, and you think that's what you are, unless you break free from those things and say, that's not going to stop me from trying to achieve this and go after that, right?

49:02These things are putting shackles on people's ankles a lot of times. This is why I prefer coaching. I create a form of coaching which is very forward-looking as opposed to past-looking. Self-talk, self-therapy, self-talk therapy, I mean, it can be damaging. Like you're pointing out, it's not always great. And it's also not for everyone. I saw a very funny Bill Maher, sort of, he was a podcast. I love him. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I tend to agree with a lot of his perspective. I tend to agree with almost everything lately. But I like people like him. I like people like Larry David. I like these honest Jews.

49:39Like I just There's like You know They say things That how they really feel Even if it's not societally You know Like Bill Maher Bill Maher is like Is he Jewish? Bill Maher Bill Maher Come to think of it I mean he might not be You know what I don't know if he's Jewish He's very pro-Israel right now I mean but then again But why David certainly is Who? Larry David? Of course is Wait is Bill Maher Jewish? You know I think he is He's ish He's Jewish But if your mom's Jewish You're Jewish Yeah But he was talking about, he's like, you know. He's not a practicing Jew. He's like, look, I've done therapy and he's like, honestly, it's like, I want them to push me a little more.

50:19They're like, oh, really? Okay. It's like, what am I getting out of that? So I think that it's not for everyone. I also don't think you should feel ashamed if you're in therapy and you're not getting something out of it. It can be awkward sometimes breaking up with a therapist, but sometimes it needs to happen. I had a therapist I didn't really like, to be honest. Yes, to deal with mother issues. And what happened? I felt like this therapist was being too hard on my mom. Yeah, exactly. I felt sorry for my mom. I didn't want to have bashing sessions about my – that's not like – I had some issues with my mom.

50:54Yes, she's overprotective. She's crazy. But she has a big heart. She means well. But then the therapist trying to have me convinced that trauma was there and all this stuff that I was like, I don't know. I don't know if I agree with you. A hundred percent. By the way, were you a psychologist already by this point? Yeah. This is recently. This is recently? So that's even better. By the way, that's hilarious. So I think a lot of therapists have to feel like they're earning their pay, right? So they have to find somebody to blame it on. Yeah. And they have to label you or else they're not doing their job.

51:29He's like giving me a victim mindset. Right. You're like, do you know I wrote this book on how to overcome? I wrote the book. Yeah, the book on how to overcome a victim mindset. And you're telling me, but this is the problem. Yeah. Right? But I wonder, is it because people don't have enough, like the social element, right? Like people don't socialize anymore. People need an outlet. And do you think that's why a lot of people go to therapy? Or is it because they don't have someone they can trust? Like what do you think? this is more just a question like I would ask, what do you think the reason is that people are just going, like now it's become such a, it's become so popular to have a therapist that it's becoming someone's part of everyone's habitual day.

52:13That wasn't how it was when I was a kid. And I don't have a therapist. I'm the only one of my friends, by the way, who doesn't have one. And I get made fun of. That's horrible. You should not be meant to feel shame for that. In fact, I think sometimes choosing a coach over a therapist is a very wise choice. A coach? But I think I agree with what you said. Because a lot of times coaches push you forward and they're not doing the blame game. Because in my opinion, blaming somebody is not going to move the puck. Look, I'm of mind that no one should feel shame for how they choose to heal. I argue that there's something called narcissism.

52:51I know. For everything. thing. There's narcissistic spirituality. So there are people who they'll go to one silent meditation retreat and they'll come back, they'll cancel half their friends because now they've had an epiphany that their friends are not as enlightened as they are. You had one freaking yoga retreat. That doesn't make you more enlightened all of a sudden than all your friends, but they'll come back and they'll feel like they're more enlightened. So it's called the I'm enlightened and you're not effect. It's actually a real effect in psychology. Really? And what happens with that person?

53:25Does the pendulum swing back and they make amends? That answers the question. I don't know. I don't know about over time, but you do tend to see this effect after engagement in spiritual practices. I also could see this happening with therapy. The person who goes to a therapist thinks that they're now a better person than those who don't go to therapy. You see this actually in so many different domains. You see this a lot in the fitness community with fat phobia. If you were overweight and you lost a lot of weight and that's your story, those people tend to really have a deep visceral reaction to fat people.

54:04Really? They represent to them what they hated about themselves back in the day. Right. Yeah. But that's horrible. That's true, but that's also like most of the time people hate things that remind them of themselves. Like when you don't like something about someone, typically it's because you see it. Or who you used to be and you feel like you've overcome as well. Exactly. Yeah. So that makes actual sense to me. That makes sense to me. It's true. And then you shame them. Yeah. Which, by the way, you talk about the shame in the book, right? I'm not about shaming. Yeah, yeah. My tone in this book is what I call honest love.

54:43I'm not trying to shame anyone for their choices. I want what's best for everyone, and I want people to figure that out for themselves and then to go after it, not with a victim mindset. Right, right, right, right, right. But you're saying something about with the shame. People tend to feel shame because how people see them in society. Yes, that's exactly right. Even if we didn't have shame – so people might not have had any shame over something and then they talk about something they're excited about and then they see how it's reacted. And then they're like, oh, shit. Now I have shame over this.

55:22I didn't admit it ago. Right, right, right. Now you do. Right, right, right. Last time I'm telling anyone what Bobby and I did sexually in the bedroom last week. Right, right, right. Because – Because once you get judged, that's it, right? Yeah, yeah. It has nothing to do with what you actually did, what anything— It's how people react to you. Yeah. We're so sensitive as a social species. But isn't it interesting? You could have no shame at all of things you're doing in your life if you never had to talk to another human. If I never told anybody. You would just blissfully go about your life doing what you want to do.

55:54I was going to say, isn't that then—do you have guilt? Because is guilt when you don't tell somebody? Can you feel— Well, guilt is different than shame. Right. That's what I'm saying. It's more guilt. Guilt is actually more productive. With guilt, you've done something to cause someone harm, and you want to make a repair, but you don't take it personally. Right. You don't say you're bad. With shame, it's something different. Sometimes with shame, you're not even harming someone else. Social approval. Yeah. Everyone is so judgy these days. Have you noticed that? Yes. Are you joking me? If you go on social media, everyone is judging everyone for their life choices.

56:31That's what it is, but it's all about polarization, right? Yeah. And there's no, it's like you were saying, there's no in-between. There's no in-between. It's no. You're either on this side or you're that side. God forbid. You're right. Either you're sex positive or a conservative Christian. Those are the only two options we got right now. Yeah. And not at all. And if you even are on one side and you see something on the other side that makes a little sense and you make mention of it, you'll get bashed by whoever your contingency is. Oh, absolutely. Or like it would be like every now and then something comes along and that Trump does that I'm like, I'm glad he's doing that.

57:06Right. And it's like all my friends, right? You can't even – it's like this guy can't ever do any right. I know. But that – exactly. You know what I'm saying? By the way – do I know what you're saying? I mean I think I said one thing on social media that I was like very – that I was really happy about. And people went nuts. Yeah. Because I was basically applauding the devil. But then on the other side, you know what I mean? So it's very, very hard. So that's why I'm saying it's hard to have. Right now, I feel we're in a very interesting time because your friend group has to also be who you're politically sided with.

57:43I think it's a shame. You're right. You're absolutely right. And if you are not sided with them, you will literally lose that person as a friend. That's right. We've never been in a time like this in history, I don't think. It's a crazy time that we're living in right now. Isn't it just insane? It's absolutely insane. Everything is politicized. Everything is. I can say, I wish everyone loved today, and I'll get, oh, you Dems are always virtue signaling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, virtue signaling? What? It's true, though. And then everything's a conspiracy theory. Yeah, yeah. But what's the psychologic, what is the psychosis on that?

58:21That why we cannot be friends with the other side now. Like, what's happening in our society psychologically? Well, that's what politics has become, is that politics is now focusing on what's bad about the out-group as opposed to what's good about your own in-group. And that's just what politics has become. Articles have been written about this by political psychologists, that that's the age of what we're living in. There is a term for this, but I'm blanking on it right now, that they coined. But that is, you know, everyone's only focusing on, you're only defining yourself by what you hate about the other, you know?

58:59Yeah. And that's very different than defining your group based on what you love about your group. You know what that's. Nobody loves their, no one actually loves their own group anymore, right? I think that's, you know, that's so funny. Do Democrats love their group? No, they don't. But that's actually very true. I didn't even think of it that way. Is this too controversial? No, it's not controversial at all. What I think was interesting, I think it's 100 % accurate, right? Because how people connect is through misery in Joy's company, right? Correct. So if you and I were connected by bashing Trump, let's say, as opposed to talking about what we have in common, it's not as interesting.

59:35No, trauma bonding. Right. But we're trauma bonding and we're connecting over hating somebody else. And I suppose that's what we're doing right now, you know? That's what we're doing right now. But I think that's the way people socialize today. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. No, not maybe. Yes, you are right. That is the way people socialize. It's in the air. It's in the air. How do we find a happy, where does the pendulum come back? I know you're not like, well, actually, you are a mind reader, actually. I was going to say, I know you're not a mind reader, but you are. But as a psychologist, where do you see the trends going for human behavior in this way?

1:00:15for society. Yeah, I just wish I could be more optimistic about the trend lines. Right. But I think we're in the middle of something historically right now, and it needs to go through it before it gets better. And again, I really wish I could just lie to you and say I feel great sense of optimism. Yeah, but... Because I am usually such an optimistic guy. But if you read the tea leaves, we're going through a real change in leadership, a change in what it means to be America. What does it mean to be an American? And a lot of conceptualizations of, we've never been more divided on morality issues, and everyone thinks that they're the most moral person of them all.

1:01:08Right, exactly, it's true. And we need to get through it to get out to the other side. Yeah, I see. I think we're in a bad place, personally, but... It doesn't mean you can't do your best. You can't do, exactly. To show up in this world how you want to show up. There's my optimism. There's your optimism. Okay, well, on that, though, how about cultivating psychological flexibility? Yeah, that's super important because there's a whole research literature on the ACT approach to psychology, ACT, where you develop a psychological flexibility that allows you to change your goals, change your – even if you're not feeling like you're in the mood to do something, you change based on your higher values.

1:01:51Like, where do you really want to go? I have this whole sailboat model of self-actualization. You know, like, where is the port you want to sail to? Get really clear on that. And when you get really clear on that, a lot of your momentary by momentary decisions change and are different. And psychological flexibility is the opposite of what's called experiential avoidance. A lot of people have experiential avoidance for things. They avoid things that may make them feel uncomfortable. And as all the research shows, experiential avoidance is not the way to growth. Well, that's why they say, I've seen a lot that the idea of just overall psychological flexibility, every type of flexibility, adaptability, is how people, those are the most healthy people in everything in life, right?

1:02:44Being able to go with the punches and change and be malleable. It's called different things depending on what researcher you are, but it's all the same shit. It's all the same shit, yeah. George Bonanno calls it the flexibility mindset. He says that's the most important thing for resilience. But yeah, I mean, that's where it's at, is having that flexibility. Not even – having a flexible identity as well. It's lacking these days. People are so – Hard set. I am a Democrat. Yeah. Oh, you know, therefore, don't even talk to me about the good anyone else could do if they're not a Democrat, too. Or I am a Republican.

1:03:28I don't mean to pick on the Democrats. Right, right, right. Whatever it is, I am this, I am that. And we've become such an identity-obsessed culture where everything revolves around that, that we're not leaving ourselves flexible to different ways of being, different ways of interacting with others, with perspectives that may seem very different to the way we think, but getting curious about it, being like, huh, you know, my identity isn't so rigid that I can't accommodate this other worldview at all. You know, it's saying you can, you can, you can integrate multiple things in this world. Right, right, right, right.

1:04:09No, I think that's, I agree 100%. What else do you want to talk about from your book? Is there anything we're leaving out that's important that you want to talk about? I mean, part one of the book is all about all the ways that you're a victim to your own inner self. You know, we all talk about like being a victim to external circumstances. But part one is all about being a victim to your own need for self-esteem, for people-pleasing, for your past to be a victim to your past, these sorts of things. People-pleasing is a big one, too. Yes! That's a big one, too. Yes. Do you identify with that at all?

1:04:40I don't think so. I don't think I'm a people-pleaser. That's cool. But I do think... What are you smiling at? Am I a people-pleaser? Yeah, that's what I thought. That's not one of my problems. I have other issues way bigger than that, but that's not one of them. Are you a people pleaser? I'm a recovered people pleaser. Really? What comes with that? What comes with being a people pleaser? Well, I think part of it is it's a good thing. Like you have empathy, right? You don't want to hurt people's feelings. But I've lived long enough on this planet at this point that I've noticed that not everything you do to piss someone off was anything you actually did.

1:05:18Yeah, exactly. That's what recovered people pleasers or people who want to be recovered like me need to really realize. You can do – an easy example is I'm in the Uber with this guy on the way here. People are honking their horn at him. We're trying to figure out what the heck is going on. He's like, I'm doing everything right. I'm moving in the straight in my lane. People are honking their horns. Oh, how dare you? Fuck you. I don't know if I want to curse. But it's like you can go and have the best of intentions and you still won't please everyone. In fact, the more – there's a paradox, actually.

1:05:51It's interesting. The more you try to live a life where you don't ruffle any feathers, like you try to do everything right. I'm going to try to dot every I. The more you actually piss people off. That's the truth, isn't that? It's a deep truth. That is like Murphy's Law, though. Isn't that true? Maybe. It's related. It's also like no good deed goes unpunished, right? Yeah, yeah. Isn't that so true? Yeah. You can't live your life making your decisions so that it pleases someone else. At a certain point, you lose your authenticity. You lose your soul. You do. You lose your soul. Unfortunately. And you're recovering, so you're okay, though, right now.

1:06:28I'm in a good place. This book is really my voice where it's at in 2025. I don't think I could have written this book 10 years ago. No? No. No. No. No. Because why? Oh, my God. My books were always so, like, trying to please everyone. No, no. Really? Yeah. Well, I mean, maybe I'm being too hard on myself, but they were definitely just sugary, sweet books, you know? This book has some truths. Well, this was a little bit more. It's edgier. Yeah, you're pulling out some, like, stops there a little bit. I'm getting a little edgy. A little edgier, maybe. I'm living on the wild side a little bit. But your stuff that you talked about in earlier years about intelligence, that's not exactly that.

1:07:14That's true. It did try to challenge the system. That's true. But why? Tell me why. I love the intelligence part. So you can talk about it all day if you want. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I had for many, many years, I thought my mission on life was to redefine intelligence. for the first 20, for the first 30 years of my life. I think I thought that that's why I was on this planet was to take on the IQ, you know, and researchers and school psychologists and change the education system and show that we need to broaden our way of thinking about intelligence. And I wrote a book called Ungifted, which outlined a lot of my view on that.

1:07:53But then I was like, oh, I'm still alive. You know, what's next? And you keep seeing their higher mountains to climb, even if you don't know it at the time. What was your main theme about intelligence that you researched? Well, it was neurodiversity. The idea that there are people with a lot of hidden strengths and forms of intelligence that we really don't pick up on in an IQ test. Or at school, in a classroom. And I really wanted to shine a spotlight on those individuals. They don't just have to be kids. They could be adults, too. Totally. I think that we get really stuck in this idea that if you're not academically smart, then you're not smart at all.

1:08:35And there's so many other... There are a lot of really stupid academics. Most academics can be really stupid. Well, a lot of them are socially inept. They don't know how to socialize. Let's be honest. They don't have an EQ. Let's be honest. Right? They don't have emotional intelligence. Maybe they're not talented. They don't have spatial awareness, spatial intelligence. There's a lot of different ways. I don't have spatial intelligence. You don't? I suck at spatial intelligence. But you know you're... But I have EQ, I have EQ. You do? Yeah. Are you surprised? I don't know. I mean, I don't know you well enough.

1:09:07But I think you have a lot of academic intelligence. You can retain a lot of information. Yes, but I'm bad at directions. Well, you can be bad at directions. But you've sprouted out... You quoted a bunch of people on this podcast. Like, Carl blah, blah, blah says that in Iquo... I am very scholarly. You're very scholarly. It's true. So in all of your learnings and intelligence, what are some very cogent points that you can share with us? Like based on everything I've ever studied in my life? Success and intelligence. It's all about the habits and the hustle. It's definitely about the habits and the hustle.

1:09:46If you ask me. Yes, okay. However, I'm asking you. And what I mean by that is. Yes, go ahead. You know, so much of life is really connecting with yourself and really getting deep, deep down into and taking responsibility for your whole self, not just the parts of you that you like. There's, I call it the authenticity bias. We only circle the adjectives that are positive and say that's the real me and all this stuff isn't the real you. But really taking responsibility for your whole existence and being passionate about what you do and really putting that grid into it. If you don't have the self-belief, none of this stuff is going to—I hate to say it, but no one's coming to save you.

1:10:33Yeah, no, that's true. The reason why I was asking, I really wanted to get into the intelligence thing is— Yeah, oh yeah, the intelligence thing. I did my first TED Talk a long time ago. It was about the idea of being bold. And I talk about this idea that it went like pretty viral, that I'm a big believer that it's not about how smart. I think boldness is way more important than intelligence. I think if you're bold enough to go after something, those are the people that win in life. Because a lot of times when you're smart, right, academically, you tend to overthink. You tend to have analysis paralysis.

1:11:05You're very myopic in one way, right, versus people who are out there going. So that's why whenever I see it, that's how I initially found, because everything about my stuff was around intelligence and boldness and this. You came up, and I love what you were talking about because it's so true, and it's so important. And I think people get so stuck on like, oh, I'm stupid because you've got bad school grades. But you could be really, really brilliant in other ways, and you will supersede the rest of those people. Yeah, for sure. If you wanted some of my insights about intelligence specifically, I really do have this whole theory where I argue that we can distinguish between intellectual curiosity and intellectual sort of raw processing speed, you know, so to speak.

1:11:53There are a lot of people that don't have a shred of intellectual curiosity, but are good at solving IQ-type problems, and they can spit out complex math equations, but are not particularly curious about getting to know others, as well as intellectually curious. I think no matter what your IQ is, you can still be, you know, to a certain degree, you know, like there is intellectual disability, which makes it very difficult. But we all can be more curious about the world, how it works, and about what the truth is about things. So many smart people right now who are not particularly curious about the truth.

1:12:30Yeah, well, 100%. I think that's why the whole curiosity piece, I think, is the most important part. Because if you're a curious person, that's the pathway to learn for opportunity, for communication, for connection. If you don't have that piece, you can be solving problems all day and all night, and you're going to get nowhere fast. Really. The ceiling is much lower. Than what you said. Yeah, thank you. All right, well, Scott, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. What a wide-ranging conversation. I know. I wanted to cover, like I said, I wanted you here for a long time, and I may have seen a little sporadically, like a little bit all over the place, because there are so many things, like I told you, that I like that you talk about.

1:13:13Well, you were great. Oh, thank you. You were great. The book is great. Rise Above is really, really good. And I just, like I said, keep on doing what you're doing. You do a lot of research, right? I do. You remember everything. I have a bit of something within psychology where I can remember everything, yeah. Do you have like a photographic memory? No, only within psychology. But you can remember everything you've ever seen in it because it's pretty good. Some people have said that about me. Yeah, there's something about that where I remember every study I've come across and it comes back to me at the right time.

1:13:45I don't know. But I don't have that about everything in my life. No, but with that, it works. So do you, as a cognitive psychologist, you do a lot of research. Yes. You have your coaching program. You write books. Yes, the Center for Human Potential. The center. And so what else are you doing with your time? Or that's a lot of stuff. No, there's a lot. So this book has come out, podcast. I write for my sub stack called Beautiful Minds. It's been my sub stack. And I have, and this fall, I'll be full time at Columbia, Barnard College, Columbia teaching. Full time? Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the process of moving back to New York.

1:14:24You are? Yes. Congratulations. Thank you. Full time, huh? At least for a year. At least for a year. Do you know that they just took away$400 million in funding? I'm very aware of everything going on over there right now. I'm sure you do. What do you think about that? Let's talk about that another time. Okay, okay. So congratulations. That's a great job. A great job on the book, on the new job. And where do people find – people can find the book wherever, on Amazon, wherever? Yes. And you're on Instagram? Insta. I'm on Insta. at Scott Barry Kaufman or the amazing Dr. Scott if you want to follow my magician page.

1:15:03Oh, right. That's exactly it. You promised you're going to do it with me after. Maybe off the camera. Yes, of course. Okay, thank you guys. Thank you for being on here. Ciao.