Episode 502: Lance Armstrong on VO2 Max, Endurance Genetics, and Why Cycling Beat Running

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1:53let's go back to little lance let's kind of like chronologically do this because when you were little lance because you were not always you weren't you didn't start off as a cyclist right you started off like you were doing swimming i heard so yeah swimming was my first serious sport do you still swim occasionally it's funny i so when you're my age and you swim seriously, you would swim what they call masters. Right. I know masters. Right. But most people listening may not know master. Masters is, it looks like a swim team for old people. Yeah. So I grew up swimming with kids. And so, and if you're a serious swimmer at that age, you swim what they call age group swimming, right?

2:37So kids, when they're young, they can sort of do the, the summer country club swim league, which is just in the summer. Or if you swim year round and you swim more serious, you swim age group, right? It's like Michael Phelps, Katie Ledecky, they grew up swimming age group swimming. So that means they swam twice a day, every day, 12 months a year. That's how I grew up swimming. So then when you get older and you want to be a serious swimmer, you swim masters, right? And so that's when I, like 15 years ago, I started swimming again seriously. And the masters team that I swam with is like two blocks from my house.

3:13I could walk there every day. And I just, I don't go that often and I haven't been in a while, but I can, I still enjoy swimming. I don't love chlorine, to be honest with you. Chlorine, you know, if I, if I lived at the beach, I would probably swim open water. I'd probably swim almost every day, but the chlorine thing, and you just kind of. It kind of sears you away from that. So my question more was like, okay, so you start off in swimming. Like, how did you get into cycling? Was it, did you have, it seems to me like your endurance is off the charts genetically. Were you tested? Did you have like, did you, was it just something, how did you know that cycling was going to be the sport?

3:55You did swimming, which was an endurance thing. And then I started doing triathlons. Right. And then I turned pro in triathlon when I was 15. Okay. And so then I knew that I was getting results as a 15-year-old kid racing against 30-year-old men. Right. That you didn't need to be in a lab to know that I had the DNA or the talent to be an endurance athlete. But at that time, I grew up in Dallas. So I got asked to go be tested at a place in Dallas called the Cooper Clinic, which is pretty well known. and it's a place that it's not dissimilar to Mayo Clinic or other places where folks will go and get tested.

4:37So I went as a young kid and the testing, you know, I did a VO2 max test and all these things, and the physiologist was like, wow, this is, I'm not sure we've seen a VO2 like this before. So, but again. Do you remember what it was? I mean, I'm 53, it was 40 years ago, so no, but it was high. Yeah, I heard it was 86. I don't know if that was right. Who knows? It's funny, VO2 is having a moment again. Huge. When I was that age and then when I was cycling at the Olympic Training Center, we would test VO2 max. And then it kind of, maybe it was prohibitive because you needed the lab, you needed the equipment.

5:21And now they've got these mobile units, and so it's having a moment again. It is. And so anyhow, but it's, it's, there's a lot of different variables when it comes to VO2max. But why, okay. Because another endurance, like when the, why cycling and not running? Like why, why did you single out cycling? Well, a couple of things. One, I enjoyed cycling more. Okay. That's a good reason. And who wouldn't? Yeah. Right. I mean, if you're, if you have the option to, to, to go for four or five hours and see 80 miles of beautiful terrain versus in no impact on the body versus, you know, you know, seeing 15 miles of beautiful terrain and a lot of it.

6:01I just, I just, and I was better at cycling. I quickly figured out that, that cycling was my strength. Now, when I was a young kid and doing triathlons, I could swim with the front group. So I would come out of the water with the leaders. I would come off the bike with the leaders and they would run away from the, the, these guys that I would race with would run away from me because they were, I mean, they're 30 year old men. They run a lot faster. And so I mean, I still would finish top 10, but, but I knew that cycling was going to be the best of those of the three. So then I started to just gradually transition to cycling and I went to the Olympic training center and then I got selected for the junior world championships team, which was in 1989, which was in Moscow, which is kind of wild.

6:48I mean, this would have been in August of 89, before the wall came down. Like, I was a 17-year-old kid in Moscow. Like, it was— That was crazy, right? Yeah, I'm like, this is—and so that was—and then pretty much a year or two later, I switched full-time. How old were you when you won the first Tour de France? How old were you? I'm 27 years old. Your first one was 27. Yeah. I think that's right. I'm trying to do the math. 1989. Yeah, maybe 28, actually. Jeez. Well, because how do you train for that? Because I think people are, you hear it super grueling. It's like, it's - That's all true. It is grueling.

7:41It's horrible. People like, you hear like little rumblings, but people who are not cyclists or who don't follow it. Can you describe why it is as grueling as people hear rumors to be? Like, why is it so, and so dangerous on top of it? It's very dangerous. And I mean, I think that's the thing that it's obviously an endurance event. Obviously. It's three weeks. It's over 2 ,000 miles. It's every day. There are two rest days, but it's, you know, recovery is difficult. but there are 200 guys on the road all trying to be at the same place at the same time so you're not just and of course we are on a team we had in my generation we had nine riders on the team so we're racing against 190 other people it's it's hard to control that and you know the roads are technical there's crashes there's mechanicals and so it's a there's a lot like it's a mix of endurance, sort of NASCAR, because you're fighting for position all the time, strategy, politics, right?

8:45Since you have the politics piece, when you think about it, if you're nine guys trying to control 200, you have to be political. You can't, no team can control that. You're constantly trying to find allies and friends in that peloton. And those people that are your allies and friends on day two might be your enemies on day eight. Wow. So you're constantly trying to figure out the dynamics of this living thing that's going down the road known as the Peloton. And so how do you train for that? What's the training schedule? Because it takes a very particular mindset person to be able to even go through the grueling training schedule.

9:31Do you remember what you did day in, day out? I mean, well, first of all, there's a lot of racing beforehand. Okay. So it's not, you don't just show up to the tour and say, I've trained perfectly. I mean, we would do, you know, anywhere from 40 to 60 race days before that. And then, and then obviously a lot of training, a lot of reconnaissance. Do you have to do weight training? Cause you got to be like skinny, right? Like very small. Not a ton of strength training. So what do you, is it all endurance training? Did you do mental mindset tricks? How do you psychologically prepare for that? Is there anything on that side?

10:08No. No. I mean, other than being convinced I was going to win. No, exactly. But you have to believe. Your belief system on yourself has to be so strong that you actually believe that you can actually. Yeah. I mean, not the first couple, but after I got a couple under my belt, I was pretty sure we were, I mean, look, anything can happen. You can have all these things I described, accidents, illnesses, bad luck, or just bad luck, you know, caught out in a crosswind, lose five minutes. I mean, this can. But what made you, like, I guess what made you so much, like, this is the thing, okay? So I'm going to not beat around the bush, obviously.

10:46Like, why is it that everybody on the tour, like, you got caught for doping, but everybody was doing it, right? So, like, the playing field right away. Technically, I didn't get caught, but that's another discussion. That's a whole other discussion. But my first— I was certainly exposed, but not caught. That's true. If that makes sense. No, explain it. I mean— Because for people who don't, like, who are not familiar with, like, my—of course, I know. But people who are, like, younger, who are listening, who don't really know all the details and minutiae, people would just say, yeah, Lance Armstrong got caught for doping, right?

11:20Yeah, which is—that's fine, too. I mean, if that's sort of the story that, or the storyline that has survived, then that's fair too. But I was, and I was just half joking. I mean, being caught, we obviously were tested every day. Right, right, right. So being caught would be like you tested positive. I mean, there was none of that. It was way more complicated. It was more of a legal process. Yes. than a, it was a success of the legal system and not a success of the anti-doping system. But why do you think that you were made to be such a poster child? Like people, everybody was, my point was it's so grueling.

12:02It's so horrible. I feel like the, it seems to me the baseline was everybody was doing it and you still were in that baseline so much better and exceeded everybody else. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I think that's right. And I think that that's not a popular answer, but the popular answer isn't an informed answer. The informed answer is, and this is, you know, I've talked a little about this in the past, the only people that matter, the only people that matter are the people who were in the race. That's it. In my opinion, that's all I care about. Now, if 90 % of them were yelling and screaming, you know, you know, lynch this guy, then that would suck.

12:42But the reality is 0 % of them have said that. So they're all that matter, right? The people who were in the war and in the battles and in the trenches and in the fights and were head to head, that's all that matters.

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14:39What would be the one thing that you wish people knew that people don't realize or don't know? If there's one piece of information that's been very misbranded in the media, what would it be? I mean, look, there's, I'm not going to get into the details of it because I've moved on with my life and I feel like I've done a decent job moving on with my life. What I will say is that there were a few things as this legal process played out to sort of reinforce and really to dance on my grave. There were three or four taglines and PR statements made that just weren't true. right and so that's but whatever i mean it that's what those agencies chose to do and they're not they're simply not true and the again if if time tells the true story here and i'll just give an example right so if somebody says that guy right there pointing to me that's the biggest fraud in the history of sport i mean come on that's that's easy to say at the time that feels good for the other side to say, I'm sorry, that is not true.

15:56Right. And, and I know that my competitors know that my teammates know that the people that I raced as a 15 year old professional triathlete know that the people that I race as a 53 year old high rocks athlete know that. So that's just, they're just jerking themselves off. But. No, I think that's, I think, I think it's because I think also the biggest and best people love to see that person fall right and then rebuild like someone like you because you've had like between that as gonna i don't think they considered the rebuild i mean i don't i think i think i meant what i said when you dance on somebody's grave they're in the grave that's true and that's what they did and that's that's but but that that i I wasn't going to stay in the grave.

16:47Well, also, you know, it's interesting. I said this to you before. It's like you were probably such a low place, but it didn't ever, it never really, it didn't seem like you ever got, it didn't take you into a bad place. I feel like you kept on succeeding over and over in other areas of life. Yeah, but it's been, look, it's been 12, 13 years. That's a long time. So I had time. I didn't have time to be a professional athlete again. Time was up for me. I was 40 years old and was banned in cycling. But I had time to be patient and to reimagine, reassess, reinvent, reemerge in whatever way. So I had time for that.

17:33But there was a long period, and I say long, I mean five-ish years, where I was just patient. And I just watched and waited and did all the things I just laid out, right? Primarily reimagining and reassessing. But even like you get cancer at 25 years old, right? And like I read that your doctor gave you like basically 20 % chance of living, right? And you were that little amount, you were able to, you know, against all odds, beat that and then go on again to win. Like that to me says something about like your brain and your mindset and your will, I guess, overall the will is what I'm so fascinated by.

18:16Like, is that something that is just so innate in you? Like nothing can like, like it seems like you actually are, like you are like unstoppable. Is that something that you trained for? Are you just born like that? Like can people become that if they're not that way? Because you just are who you are, right? I mean, look, I, I, maybe, I mean, that's, that, that all sounds good. But yeah, but how do you, like you, and then you went to win again and you, like, even. I think, I think some people are, are just better equipped. I was equipped to, to not quit. Right. And so I didn't quit when I was diagnosed and I fought for my life and I got my life back and then I fought to win the tours.

18:59and then that story got edited. Well, tell me about how. How did you even get, how were you able to ever train like that again? Nevermind, like, people who are the healthiest as I've ever, I can't even imagine, like, cycling, like, around the block 40 times. How do you win? No, no, the body comes back. To that level? Like, your cancer was all over your body, right? Yeah, but then the cancer, I mean, clearly. Clearly, yeah. But I also, I was racing sick probably, I don't know for how long, but long enough to, in my mind, I thought, well, God, I've been sick for, I mean, I did the Olympics in Atlanta two months before I was diagnosed.

19:40I know. So part of me, and I'm just, I was just telling myself this, but I was like, wow, I've been sick for a long time. Like, just imagine when I get healthy and I get all of this stuff out of my body. Wow. Like, I'm going to be super badass then. And now I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I was telling myself. And so did you do a lot of self-talk? Like, I want to know like the intricacies. Like, do you have to, do you talk to yourself to like push you? Do you like, what's your, like, what do you, what goes on in your brain? Like, is there a narrative? Is there like something you say?

20:12No, I mean, I don't, I'd have to, I don't push myself. It's been a minute since I've pushed myself. Like back then we trained a lot and pushed ourselves a lot. And I don't do that anymore. So it's. but you kind of like you still are training daily yeah but not not like that i'm just i'm just i'm gonna do depends if i ride my bike those that takes longer but if if i train in the gym or go for a run i mean it's an hour a day it's not you know no i know it's not but what i'm saying like okay after you when you got diagnosed with cancer and then you beat cancer what was the process to get back to be like a champion again like what did you do what was the what was the mental.

20:51I just went straight back to, it didn't even, no, I went straight. I mean, I took a year off. I took the year I was all of 1997. I didn't raise. So then I just, but when I went back, I straight back in. My, my questions, I think that people like are, well, this is what I want to know is like, when I, you just overall, like if you are succeeding in a lots of different areas, like business, you've become like a rockstar and like with, with next ventures, the, the cycling, like, it seems like everything that you do, there is like a massive level of success. Okay. So to me, that's, that is indicative of someone's like mindset and will and determination and ambition and all these things.

21:32Right. My question is really not even a question, but is that just something you've always been like, that's just who you are. And that's just how you like, how does somebody, is there like, is there like actionable things that people can do to become better that way. I mean, look, I grew up in a, in a, with a mother, a single mother, more or less a single mother that had me very young. And she overcame a lot of odds, different than my obstacles. I mean, she wasn't an athlete, but she just didn't, she never quit. Like she was constantly pushing, just trying to defy the odds, right. Whether it's having a kid at 17 years old in Dallas, Texas, right?

22:13With, you know, with no, obviously she was in a relationship, but had never met my father. I said, but this was not an ideal situation, but she didn't care. I mean, she just, she was dead set on having me and, you know, we grew up poor. And I say grew up poor. I mean, we didn't grow up, but we, at that time we were very poor. Then she remarried and that relationship wasn't perfect. but she's tough. She has grit. She's overcome a lot. I do think that that's just a part of my DNA, but I've also absorbed a lot of that just by having watched her as I grew up and we grew up together. Keep in mind, my mom was 34 years old when I graduated high school.

23:01I think there's a lot of that. I mean, if I look back to my diagnosis and if I look back to the last decade, I attribute a lot of that to my mother, right? Who overcame a lot of long odds, you know, to build a life for herself and to build a life for me. What'd you say would be the one thing that people don't know about you? Is there something that you would say? I think when people get to know me, I'm a lot goofier than people. Like I don't take myself. I take myself seriously, but most of the time I do not take myself very seriously. So it's like a good example, right, is obviously my kids know me, right?

23:43They're like, my dad is a goofball. Would they say that about you? For sure. But their friends would be like, oh, my God. And then they get around their friend's father, who's me, and they're like, wow, that's not what I expected. Like, this guy is a goofball. I totally know what you mean. Yeah, I'm way more playful. And you don't take yourself seriously.