Episode 505: Jefferson Fisher: How to Argue Less and Communicate Better

28:44You'll run in circles. You'll get to the point where y 'all are talking and you go, how did we get on this? We've gotten off track. Okay, back to my point. And you realize you've wasted 30 minutes, an hour talking about something that's not at all relevant. it. So having a goal is huge. I teach, when I talk about my book, is the power of frames. Using framing for difficult conversation. That is something that is a lifelong skill, because when you can craft conversations and structure them in a way that is going to lower anxiety, keep you both regulated, keep you on task, and keep your sights set on the goal, or instead of down in the weeds, then what you find is that you end up having better relationships with these people.

29:41And better relationships will ultimately lead to a better life. So give me a conversation. What does it mean to have these frames? Can you give us an example of what a conversational frame would look like? Absolutely. Let's say you and I are at work. And let's say I'm your superior. And you need to, I need to address something that is sensitive. Maybe you didn't do that great on some kind of project or there was some issues about it. Where most people get wrong is they'll lead with, hey, Jennifer's good. Yeah, good to see you. You good? Everybody good? But hey, so listen, and then it just starts going downhill from there.

30:27And then you're just left going, what's going on? What do you mean? Am I fired? Am I not fired? Are you mad? It's nothing but red lights and red flags from now on out. A better method is using a frame. So what you do is, number one, you begin the conversation by telling them what you want to talk about. Two, you then go into the goal. You tell them what you want to walk away with in the conversation. Why are you there? And then three, you get their buy-in into the frame. Like a frame, it's like a picture frame. Paintings and pictures look different depending on the frame. It's the same exact thing.

31:07So you and I could talk about an element or an issue, but how I frame it can make it look entirely different. So it's using that power. So give me an example, yeah. Yeah, I might say, hey, Jen, I need to talk to you about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting. And I just want to walk away feeling that there's a new understanding that we can't talk about this topic anymore. Does that sound all right? Now you know exactly where I'm going and what it's about. Or let's say we're at home. And I say, hey, I'd like to talk with you about the kids' schedules for next Friday. And I just want to walk away with feeling we're on the same page.

31:43Is that cool? So instead of me sending you a text saying, hey, can we talk? Or a text that says we need to talk. Or, hey, can you visit? Or the person who knocks on the door and says, hey, do you have five minutes? Like these vague, mean nothing type of open the door to limitless time of going, I don't know what you want to talk about. I might have five minutes. Is it for a joke? Are you trying to change my whole world about something? Are you trying to bring up something that's absolutely irrelevant and going to be a waste of time because it's a scenario that's never going to happen? So it's using frames is an incredible tool.

32:25So especially when it comes to sensitive conversations, for example, let's say you and I are in a bad place and you and I haven't spoken in a while. I'd say, I'd like to talk with you about something that's important. I mean, that's been weighing on my heart. And I want to walk away with us knowing that we're still friends and we still love each other. And we're going to be in each other's lives for a long time. Is that okay? Like you're going to, now they know already, we're still going to be good. Like I already know we can talk and now we have a safe place within this frame to talk about the hard things.

33:00And ultimately know what's the takeaway? We're still going to be in each other's lives. So whenever you remove the anxieties of the unknowns from the outset in the frame, the conversations always go better. That's a great point. So basically removing, because you're right, that vagueness is what keeps people in that like loop of anxiety. So what do we do when we're on text messages? Like, you know, so we don't say, can we talk? What would be an alternative? You don't want to write everything in a text. So would you just say not to text and just pick up a phone? Because now everything is so digital, right?

33:35People are relying so heavily on the phone and people aren't even having conversations, let alone good ones or bad ones, right? It's all through texting. How do we kind of, what do we do about that? Because it's also not teaching people the proper skills or the practice to get better, right? Texting is incredibly efficient. It's just not efficient at connection. If you have something important to talk to somebody, pick up the phone. They have to hear your voice. It's that same problem we talked about, if you just text it okay. Yeah. Versus me on the phone saying, okay. Like there is such a difference.

34:21We, us, every one of us, we have a negative filter that we apply to just about everything when it comes to anything that's not our own brains. We assume somebody else's negative intent. We assume that somebody is driving slow because they wanted to be in our way. We assume somebody's not getting there because they're lazy. Like we assume the negatives that we also don't apply to ourselves. And so, you know, we always have good reasons. Nobody else does. And when it comes to conversation, using text in that way for something important is a safe way to make sure you ruin it. You're going to, I mean, if you've ever been in an argument over text, it's a nightmare.

35:07Oh, it's terrible. You text for paragraphs and paragraphs, and all you do is just, you read the worst way they could possibly, you know, say it, even though they're not. And what happens is somebody will pick out just one line in the paragraph you sent and twist it and ignore everything else you sent. Like it's a horrible, messy, messy, messy, messy way of addressing something that's important. Pick up the phone. They need to hear your voice. Yeah. Even though with the, because you said that, can we talk? Because that's such a typical one, right? Because even if you pick up the phone, people would normally text, can we talk to have that conversation on the phone, right?

35:46So would you, it's like, and that even is like the kiss of death, right? Because that, so would you suggest even in a text saying, can we talk because I want to make sure and give your, to eliminate the vagueness, put your frame in the text already to have the conversation. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Yeah, you can certainly do that in a text. The biggest, I mean, what I would consider the nail in the coffin is when you say, we need to talk, something like that. That's the worst. That's the worst. But when you say, But if I begin with can we, and I like can we, can we talk about the kid's schedule for a moment in text?

36:30And then lead that to a call. Hey, I'd love to catch up with you in five minutes or whenever you have a window. I like using window because you just assume they already, you just have these little gaps in the day. But there's nothing wrong with texting to lead up to the phone call. But I mean, do you need to give a whole bunch of detail? No. They're also, if in text, it's like, to me, I'd much rather leave a voice note, or I would just rather call them and find out rather than spark that anxiety of, can we talk? And they're like, yeah, what? Because the first thing they're going to think of is, what about?

37:10So if you leave it super vague like that, instead of saying, hey, can we talk about something that's important? Can you talk about something that's been on my mind? Can we talk about the schedule, the conference, the proposal, whatever it is. Whatever it is. Okay. I want to kind of stay on this difficult conversation because I've got so many questions about this. Because when you're on the phone, how do you, you know, when you're having a difficult conversation, how does someone, how do you stay calm? If someone's triggering you and they're saying something that's, you know, that's, that they're gaslighting you, what's a good method?

37:43Like, how do you combat when you have different, if you have such a different communication style? Like, how do you deal with somebody who is triggering you in some way? And how do you stay calm speaking to them to be effective? See what I'm doing? Yes, it's making me very uncomfortable. Yeah. So I did that to kind of illustrate the answer of when I add in silence, what happens is two things. One is, I am reminding the other person, I'm reminding the other person. I am in control of what happens next. I'm in control of the conversation from here. And, or two, what happens is you or the other person will start to fill in this silence.

38:37And where do we go? That just means we're going to reset. And when you're done talking again, I'll add that another five seconds of silence. Pauses are extremely powerful because they give you the element of time. What do you do when your body gets triggered? You have to add time. Time is the only way that you're going to be able to regulate yourself. Time is a sifter of things that are important versus not important. Time has a way of filtering that out, finding out, did that really matter or was that just, I don't even remember what that was. I remember we had an argument three weeks ago. but I don't remember what we talked about.

39:15But at the moment, it's really important. Time slows you down. So when you're triggered, what I teach is you have to let your breath be the first word that you say. By using your breath and slowing it down, it's naturally going to regulate me physically, like physiologically going to regulate me. And at the same time, it's going to regulate you. So pausing. How would you communicate with a narcissist? And then I can kind of go further. I love how you're labeled. That's the easy question. Yeah, that's the easy question. Well, it's the most, it's like an umbrella. And then we can kind of go deeper into it.

39:56Well, with narcissists, and mind you, that term has gotten so broad. That's right. Extremely broad. That title has now been given to anybody we really don't like or even care for. You know, I've never heard of an ex-spouse who wasn't one. Exactly. And whoever the narcissist is, it's them. It's not me. And so that's kind of the baseline of that. Every one of us has what you'd consider as narcissistic traits or behaviors or tendencies in some given scenario. So how do you deal with it? somebody's behaving badly in that way, is you understand the game that you're in. It's a game I call praise or provoke, meaning if you are not showering them with praise, they will then turn to provoke.

40:49They'll create an argument out of nothing because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. It is a control tactic. It is the mom that always has to make it about herself and create an argument. No, I'm the victim and nobody likes me and nobody's here and nobody listens. And you feel like, I just cannot get out of this. You have to understand you're in a game. That game, you just don't play. You don't respond. You respond with silence. Or if you do, you respond very neutral. You're going to say things like, good No, no, thank you for saying that. Interesting.

41:33Like you just these one word, neutral sound bites, because you're not giving them anything to grab and to twist off on. You're not giving them anything to create. And whenever you are very neutral, short, choppy words, it's going to be a whole lot better to realize for them, it's not that fun. The game is not fun for them. They're not getting what they want. and that's how you that's that's the umbrella that's the umbrella it's funny you say that because the word nar I do believe that that word is so overused right but everything always gets thrown into that bucket of narcissism I was more interested also in this about people who are emotionally immature or who are lying about you right when they're like or they were someone who's betrayed you, how do you deal with that type of communication to get your point across without sounding like you're dealing?

42:30A lot of times when you're having these conversations, you're talking from your emotions and everything gets kind of, it's not landing well, right? Do you have any suggestions? Well, that question covers a lot. I know, it's about five questions into one. Yeah, yeah, five different topics. What comes up is what I teach, is whenever you're in those situations, and it could be any one of the things that you've listed, the laundry list of people saying rude stuff, belittling things there, whatever it is, is to use questions in a way that go to their intent. And that way you never really respond. Instead, you're still questioning what they said.

43:11So let's say you and I are in a conversation. You say something that is rude to me. I take it as rude. I might say, instead of me picking it up and responding and going, me? What about you? And getting all up in that and mad and defensive and making it worse, because now you've just justified them making it even more of a big deal. But if I were to take a big pause after the rude thing you just said, and I were to ask, did you mean for that to sound rude? Now you're left with a question. Now that goes directly to your intent of why you said it. You have a choice. You're going to either say yes.

43:57Yes, I meant it to sound rude. Most people are never that bold. Some people are. Most people are not. They don't like to show they're ugly. They don't like the bad, the messy out there. Most of the time what they'll say is, well, I mean, it's crawfish, meaning they'll take it back, they kind of tweak it, they back down, they're realizing they got caught. Because the spotlight goes directly on them whenever you ask that kind of question. If I were to say, did you mean for that to offend me? Did you say that to embarrass me? I mean, it just, it calls them to task immediately. So if someone's, by the way, I don't know how, I mean, I feel bad for your wife and kids.

44:39Like, I don't even know how they can do, do they ever win any argument or I guess the point? Oh, of course. No way. Yeah. Because you, I mean, like what happens? Do you just have zero fighting in your house at all times? Oh no, we have plenty of arguments. Yeah. I'm human or we're human. It's, it's what I'll say is, I mean, in my marriage, our arguments are pretty quick. I mean, we kind of, we followed this mindset of be quick to apologize. The faster you get to the apology and finding out the miscommunication, what got lost. And as soon as you can get quicker to the intent, and instead of beating somebody down with it, like you, let's say you and I are in a conversation and I say, you know, did you mean for that to sound rude?

45:30And you go, oh, no, no, no, that's not at all what I meant. What I meant was, and you kind of start to explain, that's talking to intent. And I go, oh, okay, thank you for clarifying that. Okay, we can continue on or resolve it. But if I were to continue to beat you over the head with it and go, you know, I just, I cannot believe you would say it that way. Like, I just, I don't understand how you think it's okay. And you're like, I've already apologized. I've already done what I can. and I'm the one that's, I just can't put down the hammer. That kind of stuff can be exhausting. It can be emotionally draining.

46:02And really it's a sign by that person that they don't have the emotional intelligence to be able to process and work through their own emotion. It typically means there's something deeper. I like to say, if you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard all of it. So that was the word I was looking for before. Like how to deal with somebody who doesn't have the emotional intelligence to have a conversation that is meant to be effective, right? That was the word. It's not even so much the narcissism or the emotional immaturity. It's the inability to have the emotional intelligence to get to the end of the conversation without feeling that it was meaningful, right?

46:46so how do you deal with someone like that the same way asking questions or pausing i'm putting it in context i think well let me rephrase when somebody doesn't have emotional intelligence you are walking with crutches in the conversation you're not you're not both jogging at the same time it it's like it's like playing against a team that all has a you know basketball game where they all have, the other team has casts on their leg. Like it's, you can't effectively do what is intended. And some of that is simply awareness and the very cold, hard truth of, I'm not going to be able to reach this person.

47:32But can you hear how having that knowledge is also incredibly freeing in some way, where I know I've said my piece, and if that is not enough for them, then I wish them well, because I am going to refuse to continue to make this my priority. My grandfather would tell me, look, Jefferson, I can only tell you. I can't understand it for you. So it's this, I have said it, and I've been here, and if that's not going to be enough, and they don't have the emotional intelligence, then you have to have that awareness that you're going to be stunted in the conversation where it's going to go. And that's just the fact of it.

48:18But knowing that ahead of time is very useful information, so it doesn't waste your time and emotion and your energy. There's nothing you can do to make somebody have more emotional intelligence. what you can do is if you need to give them more awareness of what's happening okay but let's say in a bit like that's okay when you're talking about a personal personal relationships but a lot of times and people who are listening who are entrepreneurs and business people you will have a choice you have to deal with these people right so a lot of times people become very defensive or like it's hard to get um to be an effective communicator or have a conversation when someone is not who lacked the emotional intelligence.

49:01So what would be a tactic that you can use besides walking away? You can't walk. Sometimes you can't walk away, right? And I know you've said in the past, the goal isn't to win the conversation because that just can actually make it even, that's not the right thing either, right? Because then that will actually sometimes disrupt the relationship later on. Yeah, you don't want to set your sights on winning the argument. Certainly not. And it's, you know, that question covers a lot of scenarios. I think there is a place to say, you know, you just need to put up your boundaries, right? But I feel like that's kind of a cop-out answer.

49:45There are certainly boundaries that are part of that. If practically speaking, if you're in a conversation or you need to, let's say you're at work and you need to have something with somebody who's not emotionally intelligent or really has the emotional capacity to have some of these deeper conversations. It would tie to one, have the awareness first that this is not somebody you're going to be able to make a touchdown with. They're not going to be able to go that far in the conversation. So two, lower your standards of where you want to go in the conversations. and probably lower your standards all around when it comes to how you're going to interact with this person.

50:17Don't be surprised. Don't get yourself disappointed that they're not doing something different. I mean, you can't change the tiger's stripes. Three, keep the conversations really short. Short to the point. Get in, get out. Don't feel like you have to lay all this huge breadcrumbs and do all this work in the conversation just for them to totally ignore it. I mean, you can't, you know, you can't lead whatever animal to water. There is so much to those kind of conversations of realizing I'm not going to pour my energy to it. I'm going to keep it short and sweet. I am not going to use words like you to get them defensive.

50:57I'm not going to ask why that's going to get them defensive. I'm going to ask questions that might enlighten me into their thinking. Those are the questions that open up discussion, like how or when or what. Whenever I can open up discussion, maybe that's going to give me a little bit more insight into the areas where there's static between us rather than a clear line of communication.

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52:47What's the best way to communicate with confidence? It's a language that is typically learned, and that's the language of your assertive voice, using a voice that's different than normal conversation. Like if you and I are talking, and we're talking about the weekend, and we're friendly, and we're friends, that's different. But if I need to have an important conversation, and maybe it's at work, typically at work, then I'm going to use words that sound more confident. and those are words that are assertive words like not having over apologies and saying i'm sorry to everything using adverbs the words that end in l y the using language that doesn't you know end with does that make sense on every single sentence any of that kind of stuff is and we can talk about each one of those but that's that's what i mean by assertive voice you you are eliminating hesitancy in conversation.

53:45And instead, you are building in words that produce positive momentum in the conversation where people will go, that person knows what they want, where they're going, and what they're talking about. So give me an example. If you've ever responded to an email that says, hey, I'm so sorry, I'm just now getting back to this. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, I just now see this. So sorry for the delay. You're apologizing for prioritizing your own life. You're apologizing for having priorities. You have other emails to get to. You have life, you have kids. Instead of using apologies, use words of gratitude.

54:18Thank you for your patience. I appreciate the time to reply. Thank you for giving me time to think about this. And when you say thank you for your patience, the other person will read it and go, I am so patient. Oh my gosh. I am so patient. Yes, I am so kind. What you're doing is you're taking away the hesitancy, which makes you feel less. Because when they read that I'm so sorry, What they think is, yeah, you should be sorry. That's right. Yeah. And so you take that away and use words of gratitude. And now you're leaning into the communication. Same thing for adverbs. These are, to me, the biggest culprit of confident communication.

54:55It's the words like essentially, basically, literally, really, very, much, so, just. All of these words that don't really mean anything. uh, like, let's, let's say you need to, uh, you, you want to propose an idea and you might say, okay, so basically what I'm like, uh, so, so just so you know, what I'm, what I'm maybe thinking of, and it's, it's really, really up to you guys, but, but I literally just thought the other day and you're going, you haven't said anything yet because you've just thrown in a bunch of, of, of fluff. So when you remove those words, especially in emails or texts, You just find you don't need them.

55:37Like even the word just can be very much overused. Just is very hesitant. Hey, I just wanted to say hi. Instead of a, hey, I wanted to say hi. Like that kind of, I'm leaning in. Just by using the word just, I made it sound more hesitant. Does that make sense is one that I like to talk about. Because when people use, does that make sense? I know why they use it. It's to want to make sure that what they said makes logical, practical sense. But the other person here is, it's either you don't know if they're smart enough, so you need to make sure that they can get it, or two, that you're not really sure what you're talking about.

56:16So it's, does that make sense? Like, it's that kind of way of using it that it becomes a crutch is what it is, because it's very, that's all it is. It's a crutch like anything else of using ums. like I have a friend who would always say that's right after everything it's just these little bitty fillers that that don't mean anything and they're not hurtful in any way but just in regular professional context they may not sound all that confident another little key thing for anybody is if you want to sound confident pretty as quickly as possible use the word confident. Use the word confident. If you were interviewing me, Jennifer, and you asked a card question, I went, yeah, I mean, I think so.

57:06I mean, why not? I don't see any reason not to. Or you asked me the same question, and instead I said, I'm confident I can do that. Like, which one do you think is going to be the person that you go, you're going to write down this person is so confident. Using confident. That's a good point. Also, I noticed, this is actually not, I noticed this a lot, the people who are the most successful, the top leaders, they're using less words. They're not using these like verbose, they're not studying verbose texts, verbose emails. It's very much what they need to say and they move on. They keep it moving.

57:47There's no like long winded nonsense. It could be because they don't have a lot of time, but I also believe it's because they are a lot of times confident. They're not trying to impress. They're just trying to get what they need to say out, and then they keep it moving. That's a thousand percent. People who are insecure have the need to say everything. People who are confident have the need to say nothing. They don't have to say it to know that they know it. That's 100 % true. Yeah, what I like to say is when it comes to confidence and communication, instead of being a waterfall, be a well. Meaning instead of having to overflow, overshare, overexplain, or they can't even contain it all, you become a well.

58:38Meaning if they have a question and you say, yeah, I know this, like then you're you're confident in the depth of your knowledge meaning they can come get exactly what they need and you're not overflowing it in some way it's a great way to kind of think how much information you share with people around you because there's a tendency to uh say way too much and that's that's very common also though is because i've i've noticed with myself with you I've said, does it make sense? Twice. Because you also are, people kind of respond to how the other person is, right? And so for me, when someone's very slow to communicate, it's like that empty space or the quietness.

59:28You feel like you need to fill it with something. It's kind of psychological, right? Right. And we have to kind of get over that because you're right. I think when that, that is like that, that symbolizes more power in the conversation. Right. Because I've noticed because you're so like, you're so not stoic is the wrong word. But like I said, you're, you think before you answer. So there's like a pause. So that makes the other person maybe a little uncomfortable. So I'm like, does it make sense? Does it, Jefferson? That's funny. You haven't noticed? Well, it was a good, no, it's a good case study.

1:00:07It's amazing. What I tell people is, instead of, does that make sense? It's the, what are your thoughts? What do you think? Because that's really why you're asking. Otherwise, it's super common. I know so many people who use it. There's nothing wrong with it. Whatsoever. It just happens that when you're in certain, if you want to sound, let's say, more assertive, that's one way to do it. No, I think it's great. So you have kids, so do I. I was wondering for kids, right? What would be one habit for them that you can instill for kids to be a better communicator for when they become an adult? Like what would be one thing that we can teach our kids so they come across like better communicators where they can learn this for when they're older and also to help them now?

1:01:01So I have a seven-year-old and a five-year-old. And what I will often do if they are in some kind of spat, you know, about who's touching me or who's, you know, has this toy that my son now has that my daughter's demanding, even though she's acted like this toy never existed for the last three years and she's never picked it up, is I will often take the moment to time out and I will ask them what the other person is thinking. So I will, so let's say it's the brother. I'll say, no, what do you, what do you think your sister thinks when you do that? Or you say that and get him to think about it.

1:01:44I'll do the same thing for her. And I'll say, well, no, what do you, when you, when you did that, what do you think your brother thinks? And so what I'm doing is getting them outside of themselves to think of what things appear and sound like from the other person's point of view. Part of a very good communicator is understanding not only your point and your argument, but all the more understanding the other person's. And so all I'm doing is just giving them awareness to be able to read people and read the room based on projecting out, if you say this, what do you think, how that person is going to respond?

1:02:27So I like to do a lot of timeouts and asking, when you say that or when you did that, how do you think she's going to feel? Or how do you think he's going to feel? And not in some way where they can't, you know, they're supposed to always be worried about somebody else's emotion. That's not it. It's teaching the not getting so tied up in thinking about me, me, me, what I want, what I want. What's almost always happened is I might say to him, what do you think sister feels when you do that? And he said, she probably feels upset. And I said, well, you want her upset? No. Well, how do you, what could you say do you think that would make her less upset?

1:03:09And almost every time he comes up as something better than I could think of. And I mean, and they immediately reconcile. And so it's trying to get them out of the kind of caveman mentality of that's mine. This is yours. Territorial kind of stuff that kids have. I like that. I'm going to try that. Now that you're doing all this, I'm imagining you're not practicing law anymore, right? I still practice law. I still have cases, still have clients. You do? Yes, and I just delegate a lot of stuff. So I have other attorneys that are doing it because of just my time. How do you spend most of your time now besides being in the car and doing videos?

1:03:54How much time do you actually do that? How do you kind of adjust your days? um it depends how much uh speaking i have that month uh so i travel and speak quite a bit and how much for i try to limit it to about two to three times a month uh bring the whole family with me and it needs to line up with kids schedules and all that stuff so we have a pretty strong filter of what i say yes to and what i say no to and then um you know a lot of my day is thinking of how I can develop more either products or things that I can, you know, add more value to help more people. The videos don't take that long.

1:04:43I mean, it's, the videos are either 30 seconds to a minute in the car. And I, I, they're not written down anywhere. I think of them in my head and shoot them typically in one to two takes and then it's gone, you know, trying to figure out what's going to be the best. Right now, I make decisions on what's based for the family, not exactly what's best for business. And that helps keeps me really grounded. So are you writing a new book? I mean, the book that you have is pretty good. You know what I mean? There's a lot of information in there. People can get to have better conversations, right? Yeah.

1:05:19So you're spending some time. You basically do have a law firm still. Is that basically my question? That's correct. Yes, I do. Is there something besides I have one other question that I kind of like went around and I forgot to kind of ask this and then I'll ask you something else. But the defensive one, like how do we not become defensive? Like there's been so many times I know that like I know that a fight's going to happen because of something that I, you know, I said something wrong or this person said something and they've said something to me that I, you know, or whatever. And then you become defensive.

1:05:53Like, how do you eliminate that feeling or how do you not respond defensively when that is your gut? And I know you're going to probably say pause. But in the moment, if we're not in that moment, when besides pausing, how else can we deal with that type of thing? Make sense? Just kidding. There's some phrases that I would encourage people to use. If you don't want to be defensive in that moment and really get the other person defensive, then you have to use phrases that aren't going to put up their walls. These are phrases like my favorite one, believe it or not, is I agree. That does not mean I agree with what they said.

1:06:41I go bigger picture. I will say, well, I agree that's something to consider. I agree that's a point of view. I agree that's a point. I agree that's an issue. I agree that's something to talk about. Like these really high-end, I'm not having to say I agree with your position. I can say, well, I agree that's definitely a take. I agree that whatever. And see, they just hear the phrase, I agree, and go, oh, okay. They put down all their swords. They were so ready to go into battle, and you just said, I agree, that what they said matters. Yeah. And it kind of pulls down that defensiveness. Another one that I like is telling them what's helpful.

1:07:30Well, that's helpful to know. Thank you for telling me. That's helpful to know. Whenever you say that, they feel like they have a mutual buy-in into their own understanding. Like they've done their job teaching. They've connected that this matters to them. Another that I like, it's very much related to it, is what I've learned. So I might say, what I'm hearing or what I've learned is, this is really important to you. And they're going to go, yeah, it is really important to me. And they're going to feel like you're right there with them instead of you going, why do you believe that? Oh, okay, well, why in getting them all defensive?

1:08:09Using really, really intelligent questions that are going to pull down that defensiveness. I love that. And then we kind of circled around this idea of if it's not, if you're, if the intention shouldn't be about winning an argument, what should the intention be? Like when you're going into a difficult conversation and you don't want to quote unquote win, then what is the outcome that you should be looking for? Like in a negotiation or something like that? connection rather than trying to win the argument and i i compare that to this tug of war that you you have with somebody um and that's a simplistic illustration but what i like to teach is that when you try to win the argument you will lose the relationship who wants to be around the person who always has to have the last word, who always has to be right.

1:09:07Do you want to be around the person who always has to be right? No. Isn't that crazy? This person says that they're right, and I don't want to be around them. Because it's, what does that mean? That means that there's something more than just being right. There's depth. There's emotional depth to the conversation rather than just who's right or wrong. Or the person who always has to throw in their two cents and always has to have the last word. You don't win anything. You win somebody's contempt. You win their frustration. You win their eye rolls. You win awkward silence when you see each other again.

1:09:45It's having to have the last word and the final say is something that's going to lose the relationship. And in exchange, you lose their respect and ultimately the connection. Have I forgotten to ask something that's super important that you talk about? No, I honestly think you've covered just about everything, Jennifer. Yeah, I don't know if I have anything else. Are you sure? I feel like I'm forgetting some stuff that I had here because I'm not worried. That'll be our part two. No, I think that... You promised. Because this is this virtual thing. I ask because, like I said at the beginning, I didn't say it on this thing, but like, and you're the expert in communication.

1:10:31How much actually gets lost when you do stuff like this? Because now the world has come to this technology where people are doing virtuals and Zooms and digital. Like you can't, you miss the essence of having people face to face to really get that connection. That's how you build connection, in my opinion. Yeah. Would I say how much is lost? I mean... 36%. I mean, like all of the guests that I have on my podcast are virtual. Really? Yeah. And the podcast is fine. Yeah. And so it's what I like to have people in person. Yeah. Why? Because that would make me feel better. It doesn't really change the quality so much of the conversation.

1:11:17And, you know, does in-person do better maybe for content? You know, for video? Maybe. But at the end of the day, I've seen lots of podcasts that do great virtually, and I see lots of podcasts that do good in person. How much do you lose with the Zoom stuff? It's not the same. No argument there. It's not the same. there's still plenty of place and space for meaningful dialogue. It doesn't bother me. Well, I thank you so much for being a guest on this podcast, Jefferson. Thank you for having me. Oh my gosh, you're the best. Like I said, I was following you when you had like six followers. I think you had like literally like a thousand, something like something so crazy.

1:12:07And I would send you, like I said, I would send you videos to like a lot of my friends and they're like, wow, he's so good. And the next time I check on you, you're like a million. And then you're like 4 million. I'm like, what's going on with this guy? That's funny. Thank you very much. No, but you know what it is? I think this says a lot about authenticity, right? Because you seem like a really nice person. This is who you are. You're very authentic. You're not performative. You're not doing something because you're trying to be a content creator or an influencer. It's just like you're sharing valuable information that people can actually use to improve some part of their life, which by the way, like you said, communication improves every area of your life.

1:12:49And you're providing that in such a real way that it's only natural that people are going to gravitate to that. So I'm not surprised. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you. I appreciate that. Well, thanks. Thanks for your time and having me on. And I'm wishing you all All the best. No, thank you. And I'm not allowing you off this podcast until you promise me that when you are in California, that you will do it in person because I just think it, like even if you think the content, whatever, I think it's a much better conversational exchange when you're face-to-face. I think we can make it work.

1:13:25Yay. All right, Jefferson. I appreciate your time. I appreciate you. And thanks for being on the podcast. absolutely thank you take care