Episode 526: Liron Kayvan: Smart Strength Training That Builds Results Without Injury or Burnout

0:01Hi, guys. It's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and hustle. Crush it. Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor, Therasage. Their tri-light panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where, honestly, I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for.

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1:29We're back with my friend Liron. We're going to talk all things fitness today. Are you ready? I'm ready. All right. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. You're very welcome. It's nice to have you. Okay, I got some quick questions for you. Ready? Yeah. Okay. Body weight exercises versus weights. What do you think is better? Body weight has to come first. You have to be good at body weight first. There's some situations where you might need to start on weights before if the exercise is hard or injuries, etc but most of the time you should be proficient in any type of movement the body weight version so for example a push-up versus a bench press you should be mastering push-ups before you bench does that make sense okay yes but in terms of the um in terms of like building muscle what is more effective i think you can i think you can again like could you build muscle with just body weight absolutely so like when i was like a teenager i started doing body weight training for like two or three years, my body transformed like that.

2:26Super, super, super fast. And then when I started to lift weights, because I had such a good foundation of movement, correct movement patterns, stabilizer muscles. I know that's kind of bro science. I don't know exactly. You know what I mean? What's bro science? Stabilizer muscles. What are you talking about? Women talk about stabilizing muscles? No, bro science in terms of like, you know, there's not such a thing as a stabilize a muscle that people really agree on what it is. But essentially that movement pattern by working your body in a very balanced way that you get from calisthenics, from body weight exercises, it sets you up for weightlifting after.

3:03And I found that people who get good with body weight exercises first can put on muscle much faster when they do add weight. Gotcha. Does that make sense? It makes sense. But I would say this. I think that when I think of stabilizing muscles, I think about really strengthening your core and your balance, which are super important as you age also. Yeah, which I think you probably get more of with bodyweight exercises, depending on specifically which ones you do. But I'd say you get more of that with bodyweight and then you get from free weights after that, free weights and kettlebells. And then finally, I think machines.

3:38Yeah, machines are really good for people who have a lot of injury, actually. Yeah. Yeah. I think machines are very good for that because it just works the muscle that you're supposed to work. And you can also push yourself at a really high level. So if you want to go super, super heavy safely, machines actually really have their place. Because say you fail on a machine, what happens? The stack just drops on the stack, right? Not on you. Not on you. Exactly. So if you're training by yourself, things like Smith machines and cable machines and stuff like that. So I know you're talking about home gyms or friends of mine, when they ask me about home gyms, I'm like, look, machines are actually great.

4:11If you can find a machine that does a bunch of different stuff, machines are great for the sake of safety and the ability to really, really push yourself to failure without kind of jeopardizing yourself. And also not really like, you don't really need to get form perfect. Like you do like a back squat versus a leg press. Leg press is just way easier. Yes. Right. Form wise. I think that's true. I also think though, What do you think about this, actually? Because I know to get stronger and to get results a lot of times it's about progressive overload, right? But I also think, I was going to say not but, and I also think that with age and sometimes with injury, you can't really lift as heavy as maybe you once did.

4:58So I still think that you can still get a really, you could get really good results without killing yourself on like super, super heavy. Yeah. Right? Like as long as you're doing weight training, I find that to be suitable. I think intensity is more important than weight. Weight is an aspect of intensity, but as long as the workout is sufficiently intense. Well, why I say this is because when I've worked out with trainers before, they're pushing me to go at such a heavy weight capacity. I just don't, my body can't even do it. And they're like, no, you can do it. You're strong. You're a badass.

5:37You can do it. I'm like, I really actually cannot do it. Like my glutes are not firing. I have an injury over here. 100%. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is I think it's really important to really be discerning a with who you're working out with and knowing your body because just because someone's screaming in your face that you can do it, you can do it. And you know, like, it's not you being like, it's not you being a weak, weak ass, whatever. Right. It's just that you actually legit cannot do it. Right. And I think that there is this whole culture now is lift super, super, super heavy.

6:14No, you've got to lift heavy enough where you can improve on your own strength little by little. But don't kill yourself. That's not also the answer. That's great advice. Don't kill yourself. Well, don't kill yourself. Generally speaking, it's good advice. Yeah, well, just generally speaking. Well, I was going to say, what is your opinion on this lifting super heavy? No, I agree with you 100%. I mean, the research says anywhere between 5 and 30 reps is good for hypertrophy. 5 and 30. No, I heard between 8 and 12 reps. Right. So that's the traditional one. That can lend itself to, look, this is going to be a very big topic of debate between people.

6:55And I'm not giving my personal opinion. I'm saying that the latest research I've seen is you can get muscular gains from 5 to 30, as high as 30 reps. I'd like to see that research because I have not seen that. I think it's by Andy Galpin. So you can check that out. But again, he says that because if you're doing 30 reps, that's more endurance than anything else. I know that's what we traditionally thought. I don't personally because I find it again, there's personal preference. There is some personal preference here. I depending on the day. So I might go as high as, you know, 25, maybe 30 on certain exercises, depending on how I feel, right?

7:35Meaning like that would be exciting to me to do 25 reps today. I feel like I want to do 25 reps. So I might push myself up to 25 reps. And then maybe I periodize these things. You have to, once you get very good at fitness and you've been doing it long, you learn to listen to your body a little bit more. But there are times where I want to go super, super heavy and I want to do five reps or something. And there are times when I want to go higher and there are times where I want to be in the middle. And I found that varying things smartly, right? Like in a periodized and structured way is the best way for me to train because it keeps things fresh and exciting for me.

8:13Well, I think what you're talking about is more muscle confusion. So someone like me too, who works out a lot, I can do sometimes 20 reps, sometimes 10 reps because I do it so often. And I know kind of like, I'm just, I'm doing it more because I'm just quite frankly bored and I'll just kind of keep it interesting. I would relabel it muscle excitement, not confusion, because confusion, like I'm not confused. I know exactly what I'm doing. But what I want is to do something exciting to me. Like I want to enjoy my workouts and I want to train to get better. So a lot of this also comes from the fact that I want to be a very well-balanced athlete.

8:50So it's not just hypertrophy. I want to be able to play soccer, which is a very high endurance sport. And then I also want to be able to pick up a car if I need to. So, you know, I want to be adaptable, right? And I want to be well-balanced. So I train the full rep range. My point is, especially also there are different muscle groups that require different rep ranges. So you're generally speaking, generally speaking, your upper body is going to require less reps and your lower body is going to require more reps. Glutes, for example, tend to be on the higher rep range. So they take mostly because they're slow twitch muscle fibers.

9:28So generally you need more reps with glutes. Again, this is not like just you take this and that's the end of it. Like there is a lot of nuance here, but lower body generally requires higher reps and upper body generally requires lower reps. Not to say that you should never do higher reps for upper and lower reps. But I think that the general consensus is if you are repping for, if you're doing five or six reps, you're doing that for strength. Strength and not hypertrophy. Right, for strength. And you've got to lift really heavy for that. What I'm saying is if you're someone who's in the middle, an intermediate person, I think focusing on between 8 to 12, even 8 to 15 reps, let's just say, and the last one or two should be like almost a failure.

10:22That would be what my guideline would be. Yeah, that's a perfectly reasonable guideline. But I don't think that I actually disagree with you that I think that lower body should be higher reps versus upper body that are lower reps. I think you can interchange it. Like sometimes I think sometimes I would do a lot of reps for pushups, for example, or shoulder, whatever it is. Right. And then sometimes I'll just do heavier, heavier, not to kill myself, but like heavier for 10 to 12 lower body because I think. And then sometimes I'll change it up. I don't think one is necessarily. As I said, it's not gospel necessarily.

11:03Like I built when I was, I don't know, we mentioned that on this episode, but when I was first starting, I was a teenager and I only did body weight. So I was doing incline pushups, three sets of 35. And I built a lot of muscle in my chest. Right, because you're not normal, by the way. I'm pretty normal. Okay, just so you know, Leroy was almost like a – you were like a soccer player, like a professional soccer player. I did a little bit of everything. I was quite good at everything. Okay, and he's like, you know, he has really good genes. He has like a 20-pack without even working out. Okay, never mind, okay?

11:40So if I'm saying you like pumping out like 40 reps of a push-up three times, majority of people, that's not realistic. Well, again, it wasn't the first set I ever did. I built myself up to 35. But my point is, my body was transforming throughout that whole process. Now, look, if you want my personal opinion, generally, I'm going with the science and I'm also going with my experience for myself and for maybe thousands of thousands of clients that I've trained. Generally speaking, I wouldn't, if you want actual hypertrophy, like to see muscular size being added, I generally wouldn't go as far as high as 30 reps.

12:25I would probably stick to somewhere in the middle of that rep range. Okay, so then what do people gain if they're doing 30 reps of something? Keep it simple. Just what do people get? What's the point of doing 30 reps of a lunge, in your opinion? besides endurance and stamina. I do think you can build muscle on by increasing your reps from 15, 20, 25 up to 30. I probably would stop at 30. And again, if that's something that calls for you, if as long as you are increasing your intensity, muscles can grow. Okay. So how are you going to increase your intensity? If you're doing 30 reps - Look, five more reps from 20 to 25 is still more intensity.

13:06No, I know. But then, okay, where are you going to go from there? Then you're going to do 50 reps? Again, again. 100 reps? Like that's a lot of reps. Giving a prescription to people, I would not go beneath five reps and I would not go above 30 reps. And if you wanted to give yourself an easy, the quick and dirty on this, I would stick to somewhere in the middle. Me personally, I'll tell you, I try to do eight to 12 for upper body and 10 to 15 for lower body. That's how I generally train myself. But there are times when I will go lower for lower body and higher for upper body. So I'm saying you do want to vary things.

13:40sufficiently, but I would generally stick to the middle of that rep range. I wouldn't go from either of those extremes. Does that make sense? It makes enough sense, I think. Okay. So 8 to 12 is a perfectly good rep range for basically every muscle group. You're going to see some gains. Okay. I understand.

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15:38So what about classes like group fitness? Do you think you can get really strong and muscular from doing group classes? Oh, yeah. I have a group class that I teach called Build on Monday and Wednesday evenings. Really? And how does it work? It's funnily enough, it's actually a circuit. Okay. So we'll have five exercises, total body. So that way if somebody misses a class, it's not a big deal. You're doing your upper push, you're doing your upper pull, you're doing core, you're doing total body movement, and you're doing a lower body exercise. So you've got those five exercises, you do three sets, 45 seconds.

16:17So they're timed each set without getting into too much complexity of how the class works. But long story short, you're doing total body and we just do it twice a week. And the gains that people have made, the people who come twice a week is really beyond my expectation. And a lot of that is just the consistency because there's a group and a cohort and they like each other, they come like every - Right, this is a community thing. Yeah. So again, I think that there's a major thing with people are now staying further away from, well, actually, I should say further. Like, you know that bars are on the downswing, right?

16:56People are not drinking as much and they're actually using like wellness clubs. Especially younger people. Younger people. They don't drink. Well, no, I'm saying like wellness clubs are on a huge uptick now. And like one of the number one places people are meeting people, like relationships, dating is at running clubs. I mean, people like, or like, that's what I'm saying, a group fitness environment. So like, again, you're doing something, you're doing something that's good for you, which is like taking care of yourself. And it's also a very big social thing as well. I also think beyond that, like if we're gonna take a step like deeper, I guess, fitness is sexy.

17:41Like the truth of it is, is like, we like to see people moving their bodies. Well, 100%. It's attractive. It gets something, it triggers something in you that essentially turns you on. It's like, it's chemical. We like that. Going to a bar and drinking, yeah, you have to turn the lights down so people can't tell what people look like. You have to drink so that you still can't tell. Sexy, like fitness is sexy because you see people honest and raw and who they are, how they move their body, how they push themselves. You see a lot about someone. So I think you're getting a way better, essentially, kind of view of a person, of a human being.

18:19100%. As a mate, as a potential mate. Well, I think it's also like, you know, people who like sweat together, whatever together, you know. Pheromones and stuff. Pheromones, I think, I agree, I think it's super sexy. But more than that, I also think it's like you're doing an experience together. And that kind of bonds people versus like drinking at a bar. right like to me it's like okay like i'm glad to see this as like a uptick in terms of because for a while i mean younger people aren't even like dating as much right so like the fact yeah they seem to be struggling in the day they're struggling with the dating stuff so like the fact that like running clubs have become like such a big thing in terms of for dating and for socializing and what was the other one oh i know i just came back from miami and i one thing that Is that where the town is from, huh?

19:13Well, yes. Yeah. I could see something. I could see a glow. What I was going to say is, you know what's massive in Miami that has not made it to the West Coast yet? Something called Paddle or Paddle. I don't know how to say it. Oh, yeah. So you know how like pickleball has been like taken over the world and especially, well, everywhere? Paddle is really big in Europe and it's become very big in Miami on the East Coast. and they it's there is such a vibe and such a community around it people exercise and like they're obviously it's great exercise it's really a great vibe what's the difference between pickle ball and paddle i'm gonna tell you it's also like they built like a whole community around it where like people are like members at like multiple clubs there's paddle clubs like you know membership paddle clubs and like you talk to people you watch other people play you play a game and to me this This is to me what it's going to, I believe, it's going to take over pickleball pretty soon.

20:15It hasn't yet made it, like I said, to the West Coast. There's a few places here in LA that do it, but it's not a vibe yet, but it's so fun. I feel like there's a little bit, an element of more of an athletic element to it. I don't know why. You're doing it more in a cage, like you have walls or whatever you want to call it. But to answer your question, how is it different than pickleball? I don't know. I'm not a big fan of pickleball. I haven't played it very much. You know, pickleball has like a kitchen, the whole thing. I don't know. But I really, like, that's what they call it. The ball's different.

20:47It's a plastic ball and pickleball. Paddle is, or padel. I don't, again, sorry. I like padel. Let's call it padel. It's really big for like people from Argentina. It's like Brazilian, like it's a very big, that's why. That's why Miami. And that's why Miami, it's become a massive thing. You use a tennis ball. So I think a lot of former tennis players play it. But it's super fun. I guess the reason why I'm bringing it up is, to me, these are really great ways to engage with people and socialize and build relationships in a setting that's fun, interactive, experiential. And then you're with like-minded people who want to be active doing something fun.

21:30And so for anybody who doesn't know, if you're living in a place where you should check your local listing and see if you should go find a Padel place, it's so fun. It's so fun. I know they have one in Century City Mall. I know. Down the street. So I literally just got back from Miami. I'm going to go check it out because a bunch of people, I put it on my social media. I was like, oh, I'm playing Padel. All these people were like, hey, you know what? There is one in LA on top of Century City Mall. so I am going to look but like I said part of the whole culture of paddle is that you I think there's like events around it that people like hang out and they work yeah yeah for sure you know my brother's in real estate and I don't know if he does pickle or padel but one of the two or maybe both is it's like a huge networking thing for them it's great for networking it's great for business.

22:24It's great for socializing. Like there's so many benefits to it. I think this to me is where the future of fitness and social and business collides. Like I think the collision here is fitness and professional and personal meet. I agree. Even work has, you know, taken a, has lost its social function because people are working from home or they're doing hybrid models or, you know, they're not on work campuses, you know, these offices are closing down on the left, right. All this office space is for lease everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah. People are closing down their offices and working from home and cutting the expenses.

23:03So people need, we need a way to hang out with each other. And I think play, especially physical play is the best way for human beings to hang out with each other. Totally. I totally agree. And so, yeah. So maybe, you know, if we should go play, we should play together. We should Padel. We should put down. I'm down. Let's just put down. And my girlfriend, Carrie, got me into it there in Miami. And her and her fiancé are like super into it. And it was really fun. And like I said, I just think it was like it's a really – I think it's like going to be pickleball, you know. 2.0. 2.0. 2.0, yeah. And also, you know what's really interesting?

23:44Do you know that pickleball has more injuries than like any other sport? Yeah, actually, it kind of makes sense now. to think about it. You know, one of my best friends, I'm going to shout out to Mimi, one of my best friends, she was like a big pickleball player. And like, she was playing pickleball. This was like a couple years ago, maybe a year ago. And she got like, she like fell backwards, hit her head and got like a major concussion. And like, supposedly, like when she went to the ER, they're like, she's just quite clumsy. I don't know how clumsy she is. I don't know. I don't know. I should ask.

24:16I feel like people like that. Maybe, maybe. I don't know. you're right. I don't know. But she went to the ER and I remember she told me like, she was not the first person there that day with a pickleball accident. She was like number six. So, you know, that's really, and another exercise or like another thing that is, has massive injuries, like you would never think mountain biking, mountain biking. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I had a motorcycle injury that really got me. That's not the same. No one should ever go on a motorcycle. That's 100%. Unless you've actually been on one before, in which case you probably.

24:55Have you ever ridden one? No. Have you ever been on the back of one? Yeah. Like when I was younger and stupider. I'm not telling anyone to do it, but motorcycling is, let's be honest, dangerous. It is probably the most fun you could possibly have. Really? Okay. Well, let's not promote. I'm not promoting. And, you know, make that a thing. No one should go on a motorcycle ever. I know a lot of people have died on a motorcycle. You can die doing anything. Look at me. Do you know what I did to myself? Do you see this big bump on my head? I guess, yeah. Do you know what? That's what I'm saying. Anything can happen anywhere, okay?

25:35I got this bump just to kind of give you like a... My trunk was opened and it was dark. and like a complete dumbass person like I am, I just walked right into the corner of the trunk being open. I bumped my head so badly. I basically passed out bleeding. You never know what can happen from minute to minute. You should definitely not ride a motorcycle. I don't plan to. Yeah, definitely. Intentionally, I should say. Definitely do not. Okay, well, anyway, so this is our little chit chat for today. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you. I look forward to being your Padel partner. Yes, we're going to actually schedule that.

26:16That's really a good idea. Everyone try Padel. Also, if you have not subscribed, guys, please subscribe. It makes a big difference. I want to hear from you. I want to know what you want me to talk about, any topics you're just interested in, any guests you'd want me to try to get for the show. Please. It should be an open dialogue here. So with that being said, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. And happy new year to everybody. Bye.