Episode 575: Dr. Jonathan Schoeff: Peptides and the Marketing Behind Modern Longevity - Part 2

27:26And by the way, I can record data in my practice and it does count as data. Just because it's not in a scientific article that's published doesn't make it not real. Right. Okay. So reproducibly in my client base, six weeks on average, six week, that's one cycle, 50%, 5-0, they lose half their total body fat. 50%. By doing this back and forth, six weeks? No, no, no. By just doing one single six-week protocol. 50 % total body fat up to 75 % visceral fat. And that's the secret. That's amazing. That's the trick. So you asked me, first off, can you only lose fat doing strategic fasting? The answer is absolutely yes.

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29:29Okay, so let's say tomorrow I'm going to fast. Okay. Okay? I can drink coffee. Sure. And then I go from 8 o 'clock on Sunday to even 8.30 on Monday. Will that be okay? If you want those results that I'm describing, it's extremely structured. Way more structured than that. You just said I can have coffee. I can have magic mind. What else? But it's all what you do going into the fast, during the fast, and exiting the fast. Okay, okay. So what is the strategy that we should do before we fast? I know. Listen, with you, I'm not at all surprised. This is a shameless plug. True story. We are wrapping up development of an entirely freestanding fasting module based on our entire clinical experience.

30:16Myself and one of my partners. Okay. So we're building out a standalone, full-on educational module that will support clients through the entire fasting journey down to, I mean, it's literally down to the minute. Because what happens, what I'm talking about, would you get results from doing what you just said? Yes, you would. I think they'd be somewhat unpredictable. I don't know what we would do with it. But I can tell you, the key is, looking at every week, there's a three-day period that we got to lock in. The other four days, I need you training standard max intensity like we've talked. Eat whatever you want.

30:55I don't care what calories, carbs. I mean, fuel with a purpose. Consume calories to maintain output. But for three days every week for a six-week period, you have a pre-fast, fast, and post-fast day. Tell me what it is. Pre-fast. Very pure and simple. rapidly deplete glycogen. At the end of the day, pre-fast is about dropping your insulin as low as you can get while still consuming food. That's the prep, right? And what I said was, if we've got insulin in the bloodstream, forget about it. Don't bother. So how do we get rid of it? So ideal is your morning AM to midday, you need to get your major lift.

31:36So your heaviest lift of the week comes on your pre-fast day. That's how we structure it. So if you told me, hey, every Wednesday I do legs, cardiometabolic. That's usually what it is. It's a lower extremity or whole body. It's a big lift because lifting is what consumes massive amounts of glycogen. So heavy resistance, progressive overload, big movements, 45 minutes to an hour before 2 PM on your pre-fast day. Earlier is better. Following your training session, that's the only time where I'm lasered on zero carb. You cannot have any carbs after your training session. So you can eat up till 6 p.m.

32:12fat and protein only. At 6 p.m., we cut off all food. Okay. Now here's the secret sauce. After that last meal of the day, you have to move. Movement is medicine. Yes. Movement around meals is the true game changer. So we have that 6 p.m. meal, 60, 75-minute brisk walk. That's all you need. How long? 60 to 75 minutes. So for me, that's when I return my emails, when I do all my dosing and prescriptions, I just sit and walk. I walk on a walking pad. Super easy. For an hour after dinner. Yes. And if you folks, you want to know, if you change three things today to radically transform your body, that's all you're going to change.

32:58Okay. Movement is medicine. A hundred percent. Anchor everything in protein. Protein is the non-negotiable and eliminate added sugar. I don't care what else you do. I do not care about your calorie consumption because if you're eating whole food, you just can't consume. The absurdity of people like, oh, I eat 10 ,000 calories. No, you didn't. I mean, do you know how hard it is if you're eating whole food? Now, if you're drinking milkshakes, of course, but eliminate the added sugar. That's a non-negotiable. Everything anchors in protein, your day and your meals, protein first. Then the last piece is move around meals.

33:36It is a game changer. If we talk about insulin resistance and how to augment glucose curves, because that is the key driver. Glucose stimulates insulin secretion, period. Done. Do other things do it too? Yes, absolutely. But the workhorse is glucose. So if you can moderate your glucose excursions, how high, how long, and how often, you will indeed be healthier metabolically. That's just real life. There's no debating it, and yet people get on these crazy train things like, oh, you're saying no carbs. No, I'm not. I'm saying know what's happening in your body and use it to your advantage. Brisk walking after every meal.

34:18Yes. Okay. And if you could only do it once in a day. Yeah. Do it after your last meal of the day. Yeah, of course. Well, but we looked at it. This goes back to lumen. We were talking about lumen. When Lumen was initially founded and they were looking at their early data, the one single best predictor of entering fat burn mode while you were sleeping was movement after the last meal of the day. Why? Because it's such an incredibly powerful tool. Muscle is not a metabolic engine. Have you used that term, like burns more calories, more muscle? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do. I do use that. Okay, that's true.

34:56So I used to say it's a metabolic engine, but we need to reframe that conversation much higher level. Muscle is a glucose management system. Let muscle decide how glucose is utilized. Muscle cells can store glucose and they can use it as a fuel. I'm not smarter than your body. But if you move after a meal, you create channels, openings in your muscle real time, actively. And the glucose pours into that without an insulin response. So in effect, what you're doing by moving after your last meal of the day is you're normalizing your insulin levels. An hour to 75 minutes is a lot. It is. I get that.

35:36That's a lot. I get it. Okay. People have to go to work the next day. 30 minutes, great. Kids, whatever it is. Can 30 minutes get... Have you heard of a family walk? corner yeah no sorry explain that to my little my little girl she i would always take my son on a walk and if she gets left out she goes yeah i'm sure she is she will come flying out of the house screaming like bawling really do you try to leave me anyway uh yeah you could do a family yeah i agree i'm just saying can you do 30 minutes totally totally here's where i would kind of push back a little bit again if you want those results i'm describing pure fat loss high grade short period of time that pre-fast yeah post-meal walk needs to be 60 75 minutes so like i'm saying so i'm talking about what you do just on that one two days in your entire week okay that's that's manageable that's bad right okay yeah but i agree with you that in every night 60 75 yeah probably not practice let me ask you a question maybe are you on testosterone though I do take testosterone, yeah.

36:36See, because... You know, the reason I don't... So, yeah, I don't have any secrets I maintain. No, I'm just saying because you're super fit. How old are you? 46, 47, 48? Almost 48. 48, okay. 48 in a couple weeks. And you're ripped. I went through your Instagram before you got here. Smoke and mirrors. Listen, smoke and... I don't know if you can fake that. It's all AI. It is? You're doing AI? I wish. So you're telling me... Were you naturally this way? No. Genetically? No? No, not at all. You got to, oh my gosh. I mean, my freshman season in college. Okay, no, no, no, no, no, no. You can't say that because everyone gains weight in college.

37:13No, no. Well, I was going to say I came into college weighing 145 pounds. Oh, so you're skinny. I was like, you could cough and I would fall over. Okay, but that's when you're thin genetically, it's much easier to build muscle. You weren't a fat kid, basically. No, no. I guess that's true, yeah. You were not a fat kid. No, no. Okay. but because you are you're ripped for not to say like listen people always think that i'm ai or that i'm on like hgh you know what i mean yeah no but no but seriously there's no way you're for whatever but so you are on testosterone though yeah so i've been i mean so i and i can share all my labs with you there's there's no i don't it's not my it's not my business but but i think it's an important distinction.

37:57This is why, because. Were you low T? I was actually. So I was, and I have been, went through a couple life, big life experiences. And as a result, I mean, my testosterone, among other things, really suffered. So I'd have to go back and look. What would happen? What would happen? Well, where it really went sideways is we lost our first daughter um she she passed away at uh at birth and um or she's still born is how you say it and um so so believe it or not actually to your point it was actually a pivotal pivotal time in in our lives not in a good way i so this comes to like food addiction right i i never i'd never thought anything of it.

38:55And, you know, that was an event in my life that was just like, just totally out of left field. Because like, I deal in a world as a surgeon, like, calculated risk, you know, but it's controlled, you know, what can happen when and somehow you process that. But with child loss, it was out of left field. It was like, this is how crazy it was. I mean, obviously I went to medical school and I didn't ever realize this could happen. I don't think I did. So, so it was just so far fetched that I was not at all prepared. And so I like did a nosedive into really deep depression and in my therapy, you know, some people drink, I eat.

39:40and uh i true story i was going through like a costco bag of sour patch kids a day like just fists and i was near diabetic when when like when the dust kind of started to settle a little bit we lost our daughter in august august 29th and um you know like the first three four months was just so dark, so dark, you know? And, um, I gained 50 pounds, give or take my hemoglobin A1C was 6.4%. So like actually ate myself into diabetes. 6.5 % is the definition of diabetes. So basically right there. And so much of this conversation, my practice that we own now, we opened for me is one, it's a mechanism to honor my daughter.

40:31Because before that time, I think it was very self-deprecating, very self-critical, but I was also critical of other people. I didn't have a lot of empathy. And I'm going to say this, I'll just be real. Someone is obese. Oh, they're lazy. Just these snap judgments, right? You don't know what someone's life experience is. You have no idea what's driving you they may be radically different i was radically different in six months time i mean i just straight nosedive so in that sense i'm beyond grateful it's a horrible experience but like it taught me a lot about humility about empathy and now that's why i feel like i can connect more with people yeah i deal with high performers but that doesn't mean i don't deal with obesity and heart disease and everything else under the sun but that reset for me was really the origins of the longevity lab today because i went through that and i'm looking around and i literally it was like vivid for me wake up one day just look in the mirror and go what what just happened like i can't account for the last six months of my life and so i pick up the phone start calling my colleagues, right?

41:46Help me out. Okay. And so this is, comes back to your testosterone question. I mean, my testosterone was like 200. It was just, everything just bottomed out. I was just a walking cortisol bomb. It's also because of your lifestyle though. Yes, totally. It wasn't because of like your, like if you went, if you just went back to like eating better and exercising. I don't disagree with that. Right. I don't disagree, but I want to comment on that because I want to be fair to the conversation. But in that time I was like rock, rock, rock bottom. And I swear to you, I looked in the mirror and I couldn't account for six months.

42:21The saving grace for my life between my wife, between God and then my son, my son was two years old and he is my, like, I can't even talk about it. Um, he's just my, like my little rock, you know? And so like, uh, you know, you have to get up every day because it's like this little guy, he still needs me. So anyway, long story short, got very unhealthy. And then I started reaching out to my colleagues and stuff like, hey, can you help me? What do you recommend and all that stuff? It was like a black hole, you know? And I didn't know anything about social media, probably for the best. But the Longevity Lab was born out of my own personal journey to just figure this out.

42:59I got to figure this out. How do I get back on the horse and like get back in the game? How long ago was this? So this was 2019 into 2020. So it was six years ago. And you have two other, you have another daughter. A daughter. Yeah. A daughter. My, my, oh man. How old is the daughter? She's five. She's five. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we just, we'll, we'll celebrate my, my daughter, Emmeline's her seventh birthday, which is just mind blowing. Right. It's like life keeps going. Wow. This is all on a side, but it was really the impetus to try and figure this out. And then I can't really do anything halfway.

43:39So I started really geeking out on it. But as it related to my testosterone, totally agree that, you know, I have some radical lifestyle changes. I get on track with diet and nutrition. But the truth of the matter is, which I would say to any one of my clients, that I would argue this. The number one cause of hypogonadal hypogonadism, low testosterone in men today is metabolic dysfunction. If you look at the impact of hyperinsulinemia, high insulin levels on testosterone production, insulin actually prevents testosterone production. It's inhibitory. But why are all these young men on it? Like, I'm hearing like 30, 33, 34, 35-year-old guys are like taking it.

44:21Right. Well, so here's how, I mean. You just look really fit. That's why I thought so. So, of course, I have to be. Yeah. Well, no, no, no. I was just teasing you a little bit. No, I know. But that's the other thing, though, is all these stories and narratives. People just need to be more educated on what is real and what is not. And social media creates all these bizarre worlds where is testosterone going to make you really fit? No. It can also make you really fat. It can do a lot of things, and it can drive you off the rails, and you can go bald. But testosterone, when used appropriately, when used as a tool, a physiologic tool, which is where I maintain my levels.

45:03I maintain my levels. What number do you have now? My most recent was like 325, which was way lower than I wanted to be. See, that's not very high. No, correct. That's very low. Correct. That's right. So I constantly— You need to kind of boost it up again. Yeah. Well, but I think—no, no, but it's a really important point because there is physiologic testosterone. No different than replacing a woman's estrogen. So if a man has a libido of 300, do they typically... Testosterone, yeah. I was going to say the testosterone. Sorry. So if a man has a... If their testosterone is below a certain point, does that affect their libido is what I wanted to ask.

45:43Oh, of course. So what level does a man have to be at? Well, let's ask a different question. At what level does a man's health become compromised? Actually, the risk of a heart attack go up. actually the risk of death. So we used to think of everybody has in their mind testosterone. Oh, it's a bodybuilder thing. Oh, it's just to get jacked and all that stuff. No, actually, low testosterone is a health hazard. Much different conversation than we've had in the past. Serum testosterone, total testosterone less than 250, pretends a higher risk of heart attack, upwards of a 30 % increase in risk. So it's a health risk.

46:21So this idea where We have to get out of this kind of dated, antiquated mindset. Oh, that's the bro science. Oh, you're on roids. Okay, there are synthetic anabolic steroids. Okay, we can list them off. And it's crazy that social media, it's a free-for-all now. You know who's getting hurt, by the way, are the 16-year-old boys, the 18-year-old boys that are seeing a grown man saying, hey, I got jacked. And they're listing off these absurd anabolic protocols. Well, do you know that kid, the look-maxing guy, Cliff? Oh, yeah, yeah. Clavicular? Yeah, yeah. So he's a 20-year-old kid, and he's been taking testosterone, I think, for five years.

46:59I mean— But that's what's influencing all these young kids. Sure. Yeah, I know. Right? I know, because I thought you were going to say—I think it was a Canadian bodybuilder. Some young guy recently died, like early 20s. There was this very popular bodybuilder on social media, but young guy. I believe he had cardiac complications. Really? But it's a real thing, but we've got to separate physiologic testosterone. Well, because the whole thing is, it's funny, if you go to a regular doctor and they take your biomarkers and they'll say, oh, you're normal. Yeah. What does that mean? But like, yeah, what does that mean?

47:38Right. So in your world, because you're so dialed in, what do you think is a healthy place for a man with their testosterone and with a woman is much different? Yeah. Yeah. So the important thing to know is that it's, I think this comes since, but it's free testosterone. So everybody talks about total testosterone, which is pretty much irrelevant. Free testosterone, just with any hormone, hormones get bound to proteins. If my hormone's stuck to a Velcro ball, for example, it can't go and attach to the receptor. So total testosterone is not that important. but free testosterone, the part that's available.

48:22For a male, my bias in my practice would be a free testosterone of 15 to 20. That, if you look at lab normals, is going to be high normal. Okay. Now for a man who, again, if I'm focusing on a muscle growth phase. You'd say 15, 20? 15 to 20. Okay. And for a woman? For a woman, anywhere from two to five. It's very, and it can be higher. I have a couple female clients, beautiful, feminine, rocking life who have free testosterone above five. And I mean, some would say like that, those same levels would be what we call virilizing levels. So people transitioning. Oh, really? Yeah. But that's why the numbers, this is the problem with the numbers, is numbers only apply to a cross-section of the population.

49:15It's an average, right? So there's going to be highs and lows, but those aren't defined by performance output, which is the thing I look at. So libido, mental clarity, decisiveness, mood, immune health, muscle health, all these components that testosterone directly contributes to. So then, okay, so then why are all these young guys taking it? why is like 30 year olds 20 year olds are on testosterone well i think we know some of that answer right it is because it yes super physiologic levels at 350 is your libido totally tanked not great really great yeah no i'm just asking i mean i wouldn't say i don't know about tanked and by the way hormone health is a lot more nuanced than we know i know it's not three hormones but it's it's precursors it's it's uh post products it's it's a lot to it but i would say that, I mean, for a male, testosterone is the key driver of cognition on down.

50:15So libido, yeah, that's part of the equation, but it's not really a major part in my mind. If you came to me and said, I want testosterone for my libido. No, no, no, I know. I would say, well, let's push, push pause here. Let's talk about why are young men, there's two camps, okay? There are more and more young men who are have low testosterone by laboratory analysis so that's one group those people i'll explain why in my strong argument they need treated and there is a threshold to say all the diet exercises it's realistically it's you're not going to get there in a meaningful amount of time and so you're basically climbing mount everest butt naked okay then there's another camp, which is the kind of the performance camp where people have gone off the rails and it's all driven by social media that we've actually normalized the conversation around anabolic steroids.

51:10Oh yeah, just do you, you know? Oh, you want to get jacked like me? I saw this guy, he's literally word for word, I'm trying to think of his using, he says, if you're a man over 40 and you want to look like me, you're similar fizzy, you have to take. And then he lists off five anabolic steroids and the game hasn't changed. What did he say? Trend, mass. I mean, he's literally, I mean, it is a crazy cycle. And his message is, if you're a man over 40, you can't get like this without these. That's scary. That's super scary. And it's so not true. It's completely untrue, right? But imagine who gets hit with that more.

51:53Is it the other 40-year-old male that buys his BS? No, it's the 18-year-old kid that goes, well, I'd kind of like to look like that now. And now all of a sudden, you're hearing from an adult and there's no discussion. He said, you know, I want to be transparent about how I got this way. So he listed off this whole stack, right? And I wrote a comment. I said, well, if you were being transparent, I'd like you to share your labs with us. I'd like to see how effed up your liver is. I'd like to do an echocardiogram and show how dilated your left ventricle, how thickened and dilated it is. I'd like to look at your coronary arteries and see how much plaque you've built up.

52:33Because that's real. Okay. We've known that for 50s, you know, origins of antibiotics. So 70 years. This isn't new information. Did he send it to you? No, of course not. Why does that matter? Well, because you're framing this as there's no downside, only upside. Is it true that once you start taking it as an injection, though, your body stops producing it on its own? No, it's all relative. And so this is the most important, categorically, the most important part of the discussion, I believe, needs to center around to people that do actually, I would argue, need testosterone. The 32-year-old executive who's been grinding for the family business for the last 15 years, and yes, I'm talking about a client of mine who is...

53:2132, you said? 32. Okay. So he's been going hard for the family business. He's an executive level, very well off financially, very successful. And he's also put on roughly 80 pounds of fat mass, pure fat, okay, he comes and sees me, his total fat mass was 79 pounds, okay, and his testosterone is 280. Here's the thing, okay, I don't disagree that the most detrimental mechanisms for his health related to his testosterone are visceral fat and hyperinsulinemia, insulin in the bloodstream. But here's the thing, I totally agree that eliminating those two will allow his testicles to start functioning normally again.

54:06The problem is, how are you going to eliminate these two when you've got a testosterone less than 300? You get winded if you go to the gym for 10, 15 minutes. You're at such a severe disadvantage. So the causal relationship between metabolic disease and low testosterone has to be acknowledged. But the mechanism of reversal, it's not snapping a finger. Obviously, he didn't get there in one day. He's not going to get out of it. But I use the analogy, I mean, dumb and dumber, right? Are you going to freaking summit Mount Everest butt naked without a Sherpa? Is it possible you could do it? Sure, there's a chance.

54:43One in a trillion, one in a... So having someone who's so severely disadvantaged physiologically to do the one thing that will actually impact positively on his long-term health, which is build muscle. To me, that's insane. And I see this all the time. Young men, I go up to people at the gym all the time. I see guys, you see guys that are working their butt off. You see plenty of guys that aren't. But there are guys I see all the time working their butt, pouring sweat. They're obese. They are struggling. They are putting in the work. And I look at that person, I go, that is, I'm not saying it's right or wrong how they got to that point, but there's no way you're getting out of that.

55:27Is it? I agree. Do you see what I mean? And so in that case, whether you're 28 or 50 or 90, I don't care. At that point, yes, you have to do a biomarker analysis. It's not how you feel. But once you test, if that guy's free testosterone is three, four, five, okay, there's literally, he does not have the signal to support muscle growth. So it is going to feel impossible because physiologically he's so disadvantaged. But here's the cool thing. This is what people miss. I meet with that guy and I tell him point blank. Yeah, we need to introduce an outside source of testosterone. Your body's not doing it.

56:02But I fully anticipate as we shift your body composition to a much more improved physiologic effect. So rapidly or markedly decrease insulin, get rid of the visceral fat. Your testicles are going to kick back in and we're going to be able to come back down on that testosterone. And so this gets to the question, am I on it for life? Absolutely not. No, it's part of a strategy. It's part of a bigger picture. It's a protocol. It's how we deliver care to optimize the individual. Okay. Does that make sense? Yes, it makes sense. So it's not a, this is the misguided, oh, once you're on it, you're, yeah, for that 25-year-old doing mass, trend, D-ball, testosterone, all the time.

56:46I mean, he's frying his testicles. Yeah, I understand. you're saying totally different scenario is there a biomarker that doctors are not looking at that is very important to kind of tell you your overall health Dr. Jonathan Schoeff.

57:28have to be considerate of cholesterol's role in cardiovascular disease. Notice I say role. Okay. So those tests are the ones that I think get left off. You know, I see guys, LP little a is a largely genetically conferred risk for heart disease. Okay. Higher levels can translate to a three to five times higher risk of a heart attack. This is the guy that's your golfing buddy that you play tennis with every weekend and drops dead in the grocery store. okay so they every every doctor checks a lipid panel that's standard yeah so what did you say was a light lipoprotein little a and what why did you say because you're right because i know a lot of these guys who look super fit they play tennis you know every day and they're dropping down a dropping dead at 40 my lipoprotein little a okay is 280 off the charts my apolipo b my the strongest predictor that we have of uh what we so sort of um clot forming capacity my apolipa b is 55 very so i have a genetic abnormality if you will that increases my lifetime risk of a heart attack markedly so what does that mean well the cool thing is in the next probably year to two big pharma is actually coming out with a monoclonal to actually treat to actually eliminate this risk But it's the risk, like I could run 10 miles a day, I could do all this stuff, and I'm still carrying a risk, a genetic risk for heart disease.

59:00Okay. So that's why these data points become imperative. And sadly, in the United States, that is not anywhere close to standard of care. So what do you do for it? If there's no medication for it now, what are you doing to make it better? Well, there are medications that can augment. What are you doing? Considering I'm not doing anything right now. Just watching it. Yes. What if you dropped out of a heart attack? Well, so this is the difference. Okay, so what we call genotype phenotype. So I have a genetic risk. We know that's circulating in my bloodstream. But I also get a dynamic study in my heart called a Clearly AI scan that was totally clean.

59:40So the issue is, okay, I know there's a risk. But now we got to see, is that risk translating to a physical problem? So I don't have any plaque right now. So for me, it's a hard argument to say, oh, I should just take medications. To me, I see that as unnecessary. That's me speaking as a physician. So with my client base, we do an entire workup, right? So biomarker analysis is one piece of the puzzle. But someone who has an elevated risk, well, we still have to ask the question, has it actually translated to disease. Right. Okay. So you got to be very careful. And so this gets to, by the way, this comes back to the conversations around testosterone, super physiologic testosterone absolutely worsens the lipid, lipid profile.

1:00:31So if you have really low testosterone, that will just increase the risk more. Well, it's the bookends. So we know observationally that low testosterone results in a higher risk. Okay. Well, I shouldn't say it results. I want to be careful. We don't know that it causes, but we see the correlation, low testosterone, higher risk of heart attacks. We've made that observation. Okay. With, as it relates to high testosterone. So now, again, this is the issue with bodybuilders. They're taking, I would argue like six, seven times what a physiologic dose would be. Point blank, I take 60 milligrams of testosterone.

1:01:12Okay, it's like tiny, tiny, tiny little bit. Bodybuilders are talking about taking 600 to 700 milligrams. Insane, okay? But at really high levels of testosterone, you see your lipid, because it's affected the liver, you see your lipid panel go off, totally off the rails. Okay. So you have the observation that low testosterone, people have higher heart attacks, but then I know for a fact, if we, if we crank your testosterone, it will negatively impact your lipid panel. So there is a spectrum, which is why I say all the time, you know, your friendly fitness influencer, they don't, they don't quite get the nuance.

1:01:54Right. And yet they're telling the craziest thing about Instagram is you have non-medical providers giving medical advice and they have no liability. There's no liability. That's exactly the problem. I see doctors getting pursued for various reasons, various claims, like you alluded to, the guys out selling peptides. But if you're a fitness influencer, you can actually tell someone, no, you should take 250 milligrams of testosterone. That's not medical advice. That's prescriptive authority. 100%. And then what are you going to do? So say you follow that advice. you take it and you have some complication right who's to blame nobody you are well no because you're the idiot that followed well besides myself right right you sue them right exactly and what's the first thing they're gonna say they're gonna laugh they're gonna go why did you take my advice i'm not a doctor i'm not a doctor exactly and then and then you're like kind of fucked after that point okay yeah there's a lot of that

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1:04:45I have to ask you a couple more questions that we're going to do part two. I'm down. I'm down. Are you okay? These are all, no, you know, the whole reason I came out here is because this is the coolest thing about social media to meet real people yeah i thought social media was just pure smoke and mirrors and there's a lot but then you meet very legitimate people and people who have a voice and connection with other people it's wild yeah so like it's my impetus to come out here is that this isn't like a medical or science podcast this is like people just living their lives out there that are getting flooded with garbage, noise.

1:05:25I'm so glad that you came here. No, so that's why I'd love to do it. Because this is the whole reason I got onto social media. It's not to go back and forth with other doctors, but try to bring just a little sanity and rational thought to the conversation. Good, because I have quite a bit. It's not cool, but it's real. It is cool. You're excellent. I'm so glad that we got connected or I connected to you. Yeah. Okay, wait. There's so many things. So I'm going to try to just kind of keep it to the things I really wanted you to talk about. The first one is grip strength. Right? Right? I need to talk about this because you told me it's a myth that grip strength actually predicts your longevity.

1:06:15No, I didn't. say that. That's what you said. How dare you? No. Is it different? No, no, no. Did I say it wrong? Well, let me explain it this way. It's an absurd metric. It is irrelevant to even just the human health. It's not a myth because it's actually a scientifically measured fact. It is a metric that has been used to correlate. Okay, let me re-say it then. Okay, so the scientific metric of checking somebody's grip strength is not an accurate way of checking somebody's longevity? No, it's not a worthwhile metric to trend. What's happened is the great Peter Atiyah, the great neurodivergent Peter Atiyah, who latches on to these numbers and then just takes it to another level with his marketing team, grip strength is a surrogate marker.

1:07:12It is a one way to measure strength. But what you're measuring in grip strength is you're trying to reverse engineer whole body strength. So I have people coming to me saying, well, what's the best way to measure my grip strength? Carry your kids in your arms. I don't know. Do something practical. Grip strength is not going to prevent you from falling off a toilet and dying. The data is very clear. The mortality, the number of adults over the age of 65 who die within one year of a pelvic or proximal long bone fracture is a third. What is that saying? So if you fall and break your hip, one third of those people will be dead within one year.

1:07:56They go to a nursing home, they get pneumonia, they die. Okay. Why is that happening? It's because it's a reflection. Why did you fall is the question. You're unbalanced, you're uncoordinated, and you're weak. So when you do indeed compare grip strength to proximal lower extremity muscle strength, proximal lower extremities win every time, right? You don't, I don't care, you could have forearms the size of my torso, and it's not going to prevent you from falling, but weak quads will. So we need to be looking, So the trainer I swear by, a guy named Jeff Schutte, is brilliant. We've been working on a functional performance longevity score.

1:08:40One of the workhorse exercises that we use is a walking kettlebell farmer carry lunge. Now that, so simply put, walking lunge, 50 meters, okay, unbroken. So it's a full step each time. Okay. Two kettlebells. So effectively that's your grip strength metric. I'll give, pay homage to grip strength, but what you're measuring, think about what you're measuring there. You're measuring first and foremost, lower extremity strength, but you're also measuring balance, coordination, and mobility. Those are what'll have you fallen off a toilet. And then a third of your peers are going to be dead. So we have to reframe.

1:09:27We have gotten so off the rails, and this is a reasonable criticism of longevity medicine, is you guys are just pulling stuff out of your ass. You're pulling, plucking data points. This was the Atiyah legend. If you saw the 60 Minutes special, he literally has a lady hanging from a bar. You really think that's going to prevent her falling off a toilet? It's moronic. It's truly moronic. What matters, so we lose logic. We discard logic for these cool numbers, but I need to have everything framed in the form of what is actually going to move the needle for somebody. And by far and away, if you were going to do one activity in your lifetime to extend your health span and lifespan, it would be sit to stand movements.

1:10:16Does that make sense? So like my grandfather, who passed away weeks before his 103rd birthday. His deficiency ultimately came to being able to go from a sitting to standing position. That's why he wound up in a nursing home. He lived 102 years on his own and his muscles weakened. So if we prevent that from happening, you are actually by definition improving longevity. So doing a walking kettlebell lunge is the best exercise. So then, so yes, so our scoring system is based on the percent of your body weight that you can do. So we consider elite would be 1%, is 110 % of your body weight. You try doing that with kettlebell lunge.

1:11:00It's hard to do. You know what? Like for whatever reason. It's so good, isn't it? Yes. And even a walking lunge in itself is very difficult. So my point is. It's such a great point. I love that. The criticism or critique around longevity medicine is people are just obsessing over numbers. And that's a fair critique. That's a great point, yeah. If you want to talk about grip strength, a dead hang, do you know what single community that I'm aware of that actually tests dead hangs? It's the United States Marine Corps. Want to know why? It's because you could actually fall out of a helicopter and your life would depend on hanging.

1:11:38Yes. Okay, a 60-year-old woman, your life doesn't hinge. and the miss is that now people have gotten in their head, oh, I'm going to get bigger forearms. Oh, I'm going to hang. No, it's a proxy for whole body strength, but we know very plainly proximal lower extremities. So glutes, hamstrings, quads, that complex is survivability. Yeah, I agree. Because think about it. If you really had a bizarre scenario where someone's upper torso, chest, and upper extremities were relatively weak and they had a really strong core lower extremity group, I would say that person's probably better off. No, I think that's a great point.

1:12:16You know? And it's also common sense. That's my point. This is the critique against longevity medicine, is what happens when common sense goes out the door. Well, what my grandmother would always say is common sense isn't very common. Right. What happens when common sense isn't so common? Peter Atiyah becomes a longevity medicine expert. And so that's the criticism that I take every day. They're like, oh, you just made this name up. You just made this title. No, I poured myself into my craft and what I've done different than anybody else I'm aware of is it's all evidence-based data-driven results defined.

1:12:52I actually keep the data and make decisions based off of it. It's not like hocus pocus. Oh, well, you're probably going to feel better. Oh, let's get some biomarkers once in a while. No, it's very data directed. Just like going back to the fast, continuous glucose, continuous ketone. That's the differential. That's the differentiating factor. Now, again, coming back to the women's health question, now we're going to have continuous estradiol. We're going to answer questions that have not been answered in the history of the world because I don't know what happens with your estrogen minute to minute through your entire cycle.

1:13:29Truly, no one knows. That scientific evidence does not exist today. We're dealing with just throwing darts, plots on a line, knowing full well that a woman's hormones change through a 28 day cycle for years of decades of their life. So that data combined with ketone data in fasting. Yeah. I think in the next year, I'm going to be able to be talking on a level that's radically different than what we are today. But my gut sense, my, as a professional, I just, my gut sense, having treated so many women, it's not going to really change the game because no different than a male who may be stressed from like a viral illness, they're not going to enter ketosis.

1:14:16So maybe for some women in the luteal phase, they may not enter ketosis, but it's easy. You have a fail-safe. Okay, if at 12 hours of someone's fast, this is how we do it, if by noon on the fasting day you're still in a low-grade nutritional ketosis level, for whatever reason, we stop. What's the point? Exactly. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, I do. But now when you have the data, you're making informed decisions. Yeah, I understand. It's not like, oh, I don't feel well or, oh, I feel dizzy. I don't, that's not, I'm sorry you feel dizzy, but what's your glucose and what's your ketones? Right. So anyway, I digress.

1:14:54No, you're not digressing. I just know that Ed's going to kill me because it's Saturday and we're almost at three hours and I've got so many more questions for you. I'm glad you asked the grip string question because that is precisely the issue. It is literally common sense left the building. Yes. And you literally have a world-known 60-minute news anchor hanging from a bar. And no one looks at that and goes, this is stupid. I know, I know. Listen, you're preaching to the converted, my dear. Is there any other myth buster that you can tell us right now that drives you crazy? That's a good question.

1:15:30There's so many, I'm sure. I know, I know. Gosh. Some myth busters. Hmm. I would say the reverse myth buster for the conversation we've had around peptides is there are indeed peptides that are tried and true, proven, and ultra high effective. Okay. Tell me which ones. I would say the best studied class of peptides are the GHRH or growth hormone. We'll call them just the growth hormone peptides. Semorilin, ipimoralin, tesamoralin. We understand the role of growth hormone in human longevity, okay, we can trigger a natural increase in production and let down very reliably using these peptides. Those are peptides, but guess what the common threat is?

1:16:15Tessamorelin exists as a pharmaceutical agent. It went through the entire FDA clearance process. There tends to be a connection. And so this is where Tessamorelin's a workhorse. MOTC, that goes back to your original question, there is actually no evidence. And I've looked at MOTC strategically at high doses, because for me to say there's some positive benefit, it has to follow a logical train of thought. And if you're talking about mitochondrial optimizing peptide, it's MOTC, you would expect one of two, if not two things to happen. One, fuel utilization increases. You can test that. It's called resting metabolic rate.

1:16:57So I looked myself, I did the study on myself. I did every week, I did an indirect calorimetry. So a breathing test, mask on my face, checked my RMR. Didn't change. Did not change. So could there be something happening on a small scale? Yeah, but if it's not having a meaningful impact on the human, why are you taking it? But what about the difference between tesamoralin and samoralin? Yeah, huge, massive. What's the difference? Potency. Oh, efficacy. Okay. So Moreland, in my clinical experience, has little to no effect on serum IGF-1 levels. IGF-1, oh, this is a really important thing to say. If you can't measure or quantify something, it's real hard to prove that something is or isn't working.

1:17:42Okay. So if you want to sell a product, pick something that can't be measured, because who's going to tell you it didn't work? Yes. Brilliant, right? Yes. That's the fundamental issue. But look at all the peptides that are on the market that do indeed work, that have been brought to market by big pharma. The common thread is you can measure a difference. There is a organism-level effect. So tessamoralin and samoralin you can measure? Well, yes. So the way we typically measure growth hormone levels is in the form of IGF-1, which is a byproduct. It's a downstream effect. It's much more stable in the bloodstream.

1:18:21Okay, so is tessamoralin— So I test your IGF-1 today. I put you on a testamoralin protocol. In six weeks, I test it again. I expect it to be 100 % to 150 % higher. So I can prove we went from here to here. Now we can get into... And samoralin? Samoralin, nominal effect. Very minimal. Samoralin's worthless. Okay, but you actually... Didn't you just say the one that you like? The category. But within that category, samoralin, which is the one that's being used a lot because the FDA didn't pull it from compounding. So everybody went to Smorelin. Smorelin is not worth the bottle it comes in. So Tessamorelin is good.

1:19:01Tessamorelin, by far and away, the most potent. What is CJC-1295? So CJC-1295 is often combined with Ipamorelin. Ipamorelin is a ghrelin agonist and CJC is a GHRH agonist. So it's biological pathways. But CJC with Ipamorelin, That combo is very effective. It is very effective. Can you take that with tessimoralin? Or is it either or? You can take whatever you want. If I was going to suggest someone do something, I have observed the greatest benefits with tessimoralin and iprimoralin combined. Without the other part. Correct. Right, because CJC and tessimoralin are the same mechanisms, just tessimoralin's more potent.

1:19:47Can you get bloated from this? Okay, so growth hormone. Let's talk about growth hormone. Because again, this is where people go off the rails and they're like, well, one helps with sleep. No, they don't. They just increase growth hormone. Growth hormone helps with sleep. But yes, growth hormone as a large molecule does result in some water retention. Everybody sees it. For how long? I've always experienced it as transient. Again, if you're moderating the dose and managing the actual titrating towards your IGF-1, it should be a matter of a couple of weeks. But it's very nominal. The effect is very nominal.

1:20:22And it neutralizes very quickly. So probably someone who's never been exposed to Tessarone, which is the most potent, may experience a little added water weight. More times than not, it's not visible. It's just I get a call and they're like, oh, I gained three pounds. Yeah, you retained a little water. But it goes away. Absolutely. 100%. Okay, now I've got to ask you about NAD. Okay, yeah, let's do it. Okay, NAD. What's your take on NAD? So first question, do I use it in my practice? Yes, I do. Injection-based NAD, so we'll say sub-Q intramuscular IV in that order, is one, there is very much a systemic effect.

1:21:05Have you taken NAD? Yes, I take true nitrogen, which is NR. Good. But have you ever done like a infusion? i've gotten nad infusions right i've gotten the nr infusion by truniogen which is like oh have you know did you know they have no no i didn't oh my god you should have them at your like you should put them in your longevity labs okay you know why it's with nr right and you know how an nad drip takes an hour or two hours to go in sure this one takes like 30 or 40 minutes okay so it's like it it minimizes the time yes so so nad if you've ever done an nad infusion yes you feel it. If you open that thing up.

1:21:44I get so nauseous. It's terrible. It's as close as you come to having like a heart attack and a respiratory thing if you really open it wide. Oh, it's so horrible. So bear in mind what you're feeling systemically is very minimal to intracellular levels. NAD and NAD plus, NADH, they're an electron donor in the mitochondria. So that's inside a cell. So NAD in your bloodstream is irrelevant. Okay. It has to be in the cell. NAD cannot readily cross through a cell membrane into the cell. There's no clear carrier. So you probably get some ultra small percentage, meaning we have to give you a big slug of NAD to get a little bit in your cell.

1:22:33So I think what you're feeling and experiencing is largely the circulatory effects of NAD. but what matters from a longevity perspective because nad does two things again it aids in the electron transport chain energy you know fuel to energy and but the other piece is it's a cofactor in the dna mismatch repair system which is literally our bodies it's wild so every time a splits you literally do copy your entire dna to a new cell so imagine as you age that process keeps happening, more room for error. But we have a built-in system called the DNA mismatch repair system that NAD is a powerful cofactor that goes through literally, this is what makes the human body wild, goes through and checks our entire genome before that cell gets the okay.

1:23:23Really? Yeah. So that's where NAD, so that's kind of that longevity energy piece. So NR. So then we talk about, so that's what NAD does in the cell. Okay. The tragedy is in the bloodstream doesn't count. So it's actually the precursors that establish the highest level of intracellular concentration. So what you're saying, NR, nicotinamide riboside, there's some mixed data. NR and NMN are the two precursors that are used commonly. I'm a bigger advocate for NR. I think there's more compelling data that NR is readily transported into the cell. And there's some data that says NMN is broken down to NR and then enters the cell.

1:24:08Bottom line, they both do in some effect. But isn't NR faster because you're missing that up there? Correct. Correct. Right. So then why would anyone take NMN? Well, the better question is why would anyone take NAD? Yeah, why would anyone take NAD? So I still use, like I said, I use it in my practice. Why? because at the doses we're using, there is likely a nominal but more immediate effect on the cell. But if you're taking it as a supplement, I take ternidin as a supplement, is it as effective as taking it as an IV? It's more effective over time. But remember, you're building up intracellular levels.

1:24:48So my point is, INR should be your threshold. That should be your baseline. I would argue, I don't see a ton of reasons why most people are not on NR, except maybe the cost. Do you take it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love True Niagen. I mean, that's the workhorse. I love that. Okay, good. So, in fact, they have that new immune formula. Have you seen that? Yeah, of course. It's vitamin C and NR and something else. Yeah. It's actually less. It's like that. It's a smaller dose. It's a smaller dose. I take the True Niagen Pro, which is a thousand milligrams. Oh, nice. Okay. Yeah. So that's why. Yeah, more is, more from everything that I understand and have experienced personally, more is better.

1:25:28So it's not, your body doesn't acclimate to it. No, again, you're taking a precursor simply because, once again, here we go to peptides. You love peptides. Well, no, it's just because you have to understand just biology at a baseline. Because people, everyone's injecting any of these. But they don't magically, people forget that a cell is airtight, watertight. If there's not a dedicated channel or transport mechanism, just because something's in your bloodstream doesn't put it in the cell. Okay, okay. So then you're, yes. So NR, NMN, I don't feel strongly between the two. I personally use NR for the basis we just said.

1:26:05But that's a, you're building level over time. Because if it's not, you don't take NR today and your intracellular levels are peak. Is it really like an anti-aging workhorse? I mean, I see it as that, for the express reason what I said, as it relates to DNA health. Yes. Because what ages us is the progressive breakdown of DNA. So cells become less and less functional or operational. So I would argue that having this potent cofactor that helps ensure accuracy of DNA reproduction is very much a longevity focus. And what I said earlier is the key though. Remember we said mitochondria, muscle metabolism.

1:26:50Anything that positively impacts on mitochondrial or improves the efficiency by definition is improving muscle metabolism and longevity. So that's the clearest link I have. Okay, I have a question for you, just to be counter devil's advocate a little bit. If NAD is turning your cells over... It's not. No, no, no. No, no. Yeah, I'm sorry if it came across. No, it is a critical cofactor in ensuring that when your cells turn over, they duplicate, that the DNA is accurate. Because if you introduce DNA error, that is one of the main theories of a malignant transformation, is that DNA becomes corrupt, right?

1:27:37And ideally, DNA becomes corrupt, and something like the mismatch repair system flags it, and that goes on to be a zombie cell. Exactly, yes. But if that cell line propagates, now that error is taken into a cell lineage, that is malignant transformation in the right setting. Okay. So that's where NAD plays a role. I got you. What about aminos? So aminos to help maintain lean muscle mass, to help with energy. What is your take on those? Well, so, okay, so let's say it this way. I mean, amino acids are the building blocks. Amino acids. Yeah, the building blocks. So you have to look at complete, incomplete, and essential forms of amino acids.

1:28:23A complete form of protein arguably contains all nine essential amino acids. So lean protein, like chicken. So your body's breaking that down into all these different... Let's keep in mind here, because I think it goes with this conversation, like hydrolyzed collagen peptides. What's the role of collagen? So collagen is an incomplete protein source, right? It's only made up of three amino acids, proven actually to be beneficial for skin health and joint health. So if you're taking 22 grams daily of hydrolyzed collagen peptides, for those reasons, I'm all for it. Problem is when people factor that into their daily protein intake, it's not the same.

1:29:09Collagen is used explicitly. I don't count it towards your daily intake. But like some people can't just eat that much protein a day. So was it a good idea to take an amino supplement? So I would say definitely yes. I can't. I brought you a bunch. I'm personally not. What's that? I brought you a bunch. I take these key on aminos that are very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, but that's an essential. So that's an essential amino. Do you like that though? Absolutely. Okay. So do you remember there was a whole craze about BCAA? Of course. Yes, of course. But that's useless. It's not useless. No, it's actually very intentional, very deliberate, but it pales in terms of whole body effects to essentials.

1:29:52That's true. So Keon is an essential amino acid, and BCAs are just a partial. Of essential. Of essential. So essential is nine amino acids. In essential amino acids, your body can't make from other things. Yes. So you have to take it in. Yes. So that's the value of supplementing essential amino acids. I use essential amino acids around training times most specifically and largely because of the concentration of leucine. Yeah. So leucine is the leucine valine, right? Yes. So leucine is the most critical, let me think how to say this. It's the most critical, definitely the most critical, most anabolic amino acid.

1:30:35That's how I'll say it. It's the most potent anabolic amino acid. We think of anabolic effects of glucose through insulin. But leucine actually is a potent stimulator of insulin. Did you know that? Yes, I did. I did. This is the problem, by the way. Go back to fasting real quick. The fatal error in fasting is essential amino acids. Some people have put out there, they're like, oh, yeah, you have your caffeine, your water, you can have essential amino acids. No, absolutely not. No, essential amino acids will kick you out of... That's why I actually avoid on a post-fast day. we're going to do a whole session on this.

1:31:09Okay. Yeah. You promise? Yeah, I promise. Because this is the, this is the cross, but leucine. So a whole protein source, I want you to avoid on your post fast day until later in the day. Why? Because you can take, so bone broth is my workhorse for post fast day. It allows you to actually extend out your ketosis. Oh my God, we didn't even do this part. You're going to have to come back. You're going to have I killed you first. No. Poor Ed. Poor Ed. We're going to give Ed like a gift card. First of all, we didn't finish that whole thing. I know. I know. So that's the other. Can you come back next week?

1:31:5155 ,000 foot view of fasting. But it's pre-fast, walk after that last meal, walk as much as you can on the fasting day. But then again, we break our fast with bone broth. That's what I would tell anybody who's out there fasting, regardless of duration. Okay, finish this. Always break with bone broth. But it goes back to the essential amino acid conversation because bone broth is also an incomplete source of protein. It lacks leucine. Okay. If you consume leucine, I mean, I can order you a tub of leucine and you can do the experiment. You consume just pure leucine, you will interrupt ketosis. You will.

1:32:25Because leucine triggers insulin. I didn't know that. Yeah. So leucine stimulates muscle protein. Because the common, it's just, this is why it's, yeah, we need to do like a six-part series. We do, yeah. Because this is all, and I know people hear this stuff and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is just all nerdy. But I swear to you this. No, no one's saying that. I promise you. But no, but when I make the point, I make this point to my clients. I swear to you, if you understand why you're doing something, you're much more likely to do it over time. I'm convinced of that. if I tell you do this, this, this, and this one, you're probably going to forget, right?

1:33:04You know, there's no meaning to it. You're just following a rule. But if you understand why, then so why, why is my fasting success? Someone asked me this. Well, if you're a real advocate for fasting, what percentage of your clients are successful in completing fasting or a full protocol. Literally it's 100%, 100 % across the board. Every single one of my clients, and by the end of their, their year partnership, we'll have adopted fasting as a lifestyle move. It's, it's purely, it is the most potent longevity tool. So again, I could take 20 peptides that could work. Probably don't. I could take all these pills or I could just fast.

1:33:45I see all these posts and like take this, this, this, and this, and here's my stack for this and blah, blah, blah. blah, blah. And my comment always is, or you could fast. Yeah. Oh my God. How crazy is that? You could do all this. No, no, it's not free. You actually make money fast. Yeah. You make money fasting. And by the way, last thing I'll say about fasting, the most freeing thing you can do in your life is fast because you never realize, and this is when I was sharing with you my personal journey, you never realize how much time you spend in a given day focused on food until you don't eat.

1:34:17I know. It's so true. That is fascinating. And so people are like, so on your fasting day, you know, we try to do three movement sessions. People are like, where am I going to come up with three hours? Just don't eat. If you don't have to plan where you're getting your next meal, you don't have to, to, uh, door dash it. You don't have to run this way. People don't, we don't realize this is a crazy thing. How much time as Americans we spend in food related activity of course because this is how we socialize this is how we emotionally like feel our feelings yeah and it's also like it's like if like it tastes good like it's actually yeah for sure like it's like it's a it's a it's like a it's like a what do you call it in life it's like a like a joy it's a joyful thing to do i suppose i totally agree and all and and i should also say like certain like cultures dominate around like i'm jewish so like that's how we like socialize and connect sure that's like an intimate thing we do you know what i mean like it's you're taking away the element of living when you don't eat to me you're german you don't know that's why this is like you're german you don't care i'm just i'm just a practical guy you're all about food is fuel yeah yeah food is fuel and efficiency i'm about like eating and enjoying it i see that Yeah, no, that's totally fair.

1:35:37It's also like a sign of like, what do you call, what's the word? When you cook, it's like a, I'm missing three hours. I know what, I get, no, I get what you're saying though. It is, it is, it's, and I don't discount that. Does your wife eat? Yes, yes. No, she starves. We have her on. Listen, you don't know. We have a five calorie diet. Does she also feel like food is fuel? No, I think she looks. yeah, food, I think she would be more aligned with what you're saying. But the only catch there that I would just say, just pure and simple, is whether or not I'm eating, I relate this more to alcohol consumption, whether or not I'm drinking, you know, it really actually doesn't bother people as much as we think it will, whether or not you're also drinking with them.

1:36:27If you want to drink, be my guest. By the way, I don't give a shit about that. Number one, I don't drink, though. I think drinking is like the worst thing you can do for your body composition. for aging, for your health, for your sleep. Cancer, cognition. Everything. I think alcohol is by far the worst. When people always say, oh, you're, you know, you must be on something. I'm like, actually, I'm actually off something. I haven't had a drink for 30 years. Like I've never been a drinker. And even in college, I never liked the alcohol. I've been lucky that way. Yep. I agree. I've never liked the taste of it.

1:37:02Yep. But I think alcohol ages you in like an exorbitant amount. Yeah. Oh, the scientific evidence is very clear. And the horrific attempt at justifying it that like the Tia crowd does, which is, oh, well, social connection is a powerful influencer of longevity. And you need alcohol for social. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why do you need alcohol? But see, here's my question to you. Why do you need food? I knew you were going to say that. It's just a question. It's not a right or wrong thing. Okay, I know, but listen. It's just something to think about. I agree. That was the word I was looking for earlier.

1:37:39Food is a social lubricant or connection. Oh, lubricant. Yeah, for sure. Okay, because you go on dates. You have date night. You have lunches. I'm going to go for lunch. You're right. What I do a lot is I go for walks with people. I have all these non-negotiables in my life. I don't. It's too mild. See, it's all the things you do without, and that's the gap for general American population is. And that's why, you know, people being intentional about movement seems so stupid to say. It's so stupid. But it's only because we live in a society where. Jonathan, you know what I just realized? I would, and now I would see why you didn't.

1:38:16Ed fell in the pool. What? No, what I was going to say is, I sent you over a text. because I'm like, you know, we can have lunch after or something. You didn't respond to that. Oh, I'm sorry, yeah. No, no, but now I know why, because you don't eat food. Well, just at intervals. You can walk to coffee at intervals. At intervals, okay. But it doesn't, I think. No, it doesn't matter now because it's already 100, it's like 100 o 'clock, but okay, wait, we got to wrap this because Ed probably did pull up. We got to get a pulse check for Ed. It's been like three plus hours. If you come do another one, Ed's probably going to see me and be like swearing under his breath.

1:38:55It's actually okay to do three and a half hours. It's just probably not the greatest on a Saturday when he, you know what I mean? Because I don't really care, but he's probably like really pissed. Okay. Anyway, I will get to edit a gift card actually. Jonathan, this is part one of a podcast. We're going to do like another one. I'd love it. I'd love it. Super soon. When can you come back? Oh man, we're going to have to figure it out. When do you think you can come back? I'm like on the spot this moment. I probably going to be a few weeks. I've got Toronto coming up. I've got Argentina coming up.

1:39:30We've got a lot. It's okay. Don't worry. I'm leaving town too. We can do it. No, we will. I would love to, and I will say this just outright for your audience, like fire the questions away. I mean, I think there's so much opportunity to improve upon a lot of the assumptions that exist. and the thing I stress is it's not about right or wrong. I get that the algorithm favors controversy and really extremes, but the truth lies in the nuance. And if we simplify down to things that move the needle most. Yes, I agree with you. Am I critical about all these different stacks and biohacks? No. What moves the needle most is movement.

1:40:12Yeah, 100%. Right? Yep. What's the second thing? Sleep? Sleep. Sleep is foundational. If it's off, and I'll go so far as to say this, my clients know this to be true. Do what you have to do to get quality sleep. What I mean by that is if it requires a pharmaceutical agent for you to get quality sleep, quality sleep is the metric. What do you think is more important, sleep or movement? Ooh. Ooh. If it really was one against the other, I'd say movement. Movement is way more impactful for metabolic health. I think so too. But sleep is what people, and again, the niche I sort of practice in, in my practice, high performers.

1:40:54That's the name of the game. A hundred people who are both wearing our same thing. Yeah. And the commonality between high performers, high output individuals, is the wheels are always going. So I would say most consistently, the most common issue I see with clients that's correctable is sleep hygiene, sleep architecture. Okay. That's it. That's where it's at. That's it? Okay. This is, you guys, it's Dr. Jonathan Sheff. He is, as you can see, a fountain of information. This has been very informative. Go follow him. We're going to do another part two, hopefully maybe a part three. It's been like, what, three hours plus?

1:41:30It doesn't feel about it. I can keep on going. I've got great endurance. We can go for another hour. We just got to find Ed. Yeah, we got to find Ed. Okay, guys, if you have not subscribed, by the way, to this podcast, I should have said this at the beginning, please subscribe. It really helps with everything. And give me some feedback on stuff you'd like to hear, things that you want more information on, less information on, and everything in between. So thank you for listening. Thank you for coming to the podcast, Jonathan. It's a pleasure. Thank you. And we'll see you soon. Bye-bye.