Charlie Cox

26:50And that was really the case. It really reminded me of the feeling that I had at school when I acted and thought, God, I'd love to keep doing this. So that was a huge moment in my career and all down to my agent. So jumping forward a bit then, Daredevil comes around Had you ever been up for superhero stuff prior? Had you ever had to do kind of the spandex audition thing? No, I don't think so I'd never gotten long enough into the process where I'd been asked to put on the spandex No, I don't think so But I remember I was doing a play I was doing The Prince of Homburg at the Dunmer Warehouse and Andrew came to see it and he told me that night he'd just been cast as Spider-Man.

27:37So I remember being like, oh, wow. That's exciting. But you weren't a comic book guy, correct me? And then Henry Cavill was in Stardust with me. Of course he was. And then suddenly he was Superman. All around you. I was like, wait for me, guys. Where's mine? The right one came around. Yeah. And so by the time you get into that audition room, did you know in your bones, in your heart of hearts, like this is one I can connect with, this is the right one for me? What do you remember early on in that process? So I was doing a pilot for CBS and I was not feeling great about it. We had started shooting and it was a lovely cast and crew but I just didn't feel like it had been the right decision to do the show and it wasn't what I really wanted to do and I wasn't enjoying how some of the decision making was taking place, which I understand and appreciate, but it's kind of a network television decision-making process and it wasn't what I had been looking to do.

28:42Anyway, I hate auditioning. And so if I can find an excuse to not audition for something, I will make that excuse. So if I have a job, I will not audition. I'll be like, oh, I'm not available because I've got this job. And my agent's always like, just go to audition. You never know. but because I was having a bad time on this job and I remember we were shooting in the standard hotel and it was an all-nighter and I decided, this audition came through and I just decided to read the lines with my accent coach on the job and it was for Daredevil and it said it was Daredevil and the story that a lot of people know is that it didn't mention in the body of the email that he was blind.

29:25So, and my accent coach said to me, I know this character, I think he's blind. I'm like, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure they would mention that. I think I'd know. Why don't we just sit over there? So I went to the audition and the feedback came back, which I did a good job, but please could I prepare it and be visually impaired for the recall. It wasn't until I was allowed to go, I was then back in London, back home in London, and I was asked, they told me I was going to screen test. And I was allowed to go to the Disney offices in London and read the first two scripts. And it was at that point that I sat in a room.

30:08I was sat with a gentleman who watched me read them. And it was when I left that room, I was like, oh no, these are really good. This is really good. That's the worst feeling. Now you're invested. Yeah. Who told you you got the part at the time? Was it, I know Drew Goddard was involved early on. Like, who was the one that? Jeff Loeb. Yeah, Jeff Loeb called me. I do remember that I then, before the screen test, I was dating an actress and she was doing a job in Shreveport, Louisiana. So I had gone out to visit her. And while I was there, they wanted to, before the screen test, they wanted to Zoom, they wanted to FaceTime with me.

30:43So I got on this FaceTime with Jeff and Kareem, a couple of the bosses at Marvel. And they had, you know, like before you do it, when you do a TV show or a film, when you show up to the makeup trailer or to the costume department, they've got pictures of all the actors on the walls. And when I was sitting in the audition, my picture was already on the wall. Good, okay. Yeah. But then afterwards, my girlfriend said, yeah, but they just exchange that when they get on with the next part. But it was an indication that they had kind of... And then I later found out that Joe Quesada, who's an amazing comic book artist at Marvel and has done stuff for DC as well, but he had been watching Ball War Kempire and he had seen me kill a man in a bathroom.

31:33And he had actually spoken to Jeff and said, he thought I was Irish because I played it. He was like, this Irish kid could be really good. That's amazing. Had you seen or have you seen Ben Affleck's Daredevil? I like it. I'm not saying... I like him. I'm a massive Ben Affleck fan. and I think he's awesome and tremendous. The movie... Your voice cracked there. What just happened? I think... I think... I think what happened with that movie is two things. CGI was invented and the next day they were like, let's make a movie with it. So they're a little premature with the CGI And also they try to get the entire Daredevil anthology into a two hour movie.

32:23Right, right. But anytime you cast Colin Farrell as bullseye, come on. There's moments in it that are iconic. And I love Ben Affleck. I did have a thing where I went to one of these comic cons where you do signing. And someone came up to me and was like, asked me to sign the Ben Affleck costume. So I was like, this is kind of funny. So I signed it. And then like five minutes later, someone else did it. And I was like, oh, you guys must have been in. Funny. So I signed it. And then it happened again and again. And then I realized the show had incorrectly put my photograph at the front of where in my line.

32:59And so people have signed Ben Affleck's photograph by me. It's a keepsake. Yeah, I guess so. I'm rooting for in Secret Wars, you and Affleck, the two daredevils. That would be so cool. Come on. It would be so cool.

33:17More Happy Say Confused coming up.

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34:26I mean, the irony is it's kind of fascinating. I haven't done the math, but you've probably played this character more than virtually any other MCU actor. Close to 80 hours. It's kind of amazing. What an opportunity. I mean, did you have like kind of like a guiding principle that's kind of staged true to you through all these different incarnations over the years? What's been your North Star for Matt Murdock, Daredevil, right from the beginning? What a great question.

34:55It was definitely got to be something to do with leaning... It was always something to do with leaning into the shortcomings. Lean into... If you're playing a superhero, lean into... I think what makes a superhero a superhero is not that they don't have the same challenges,

35:16specifically emotional challenges that other people do, it's just that they find a way to overcome them. So just lean into the things that you wouldn't necessarily identify with a superhero. So I really enjoy it. And Matt Murdock is a great opportunity with Matt Murdock for those things. But just lean into when he isn't his best self. when he loses his temper unnecessarily, when he goes too far, when he has a crisis of faith or something like that. Just lean into that stuff because I think that's what makes a superhero interesting is that they then find a way to bring themselves back from the brink, as it were.

35:56So, I mean, when the Netflix show ends, had you kind of reconciled that I had my run, if that's it, that's it? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, like we ended up, season three was a hit. We were supposed to go and do season four. They'd pitch me the season. We were, you know, a couple of months out. I turned down a couple of jobs, including a Matthew Vaughn job. And then suddenly the plug was pulled. But I was, I'm pretty, I've always been pretty practical minded in those situations. Like I'm always like, yeah, I'd rather do that than run it into the ground and end on a bad note kind of thing. So so when the call comes Was it a shock?

36:35Yeah, and meanwhile Vincent Didn't was we and Vincent would speak regularly and he'd be like no, they're definitely gonna come back And I would get off the phone and say to my wife guys delusional Like he's like he's gonna be in his 80s and he's gonna be still talking Okay, someone's got to say to him dude. Let it go. It's oh You know, but was he just manifesting was what he was right. He was obviously he was right He was like, there's no way the show, as popular as it was, as successful as it was, there's no way they're not going to do something with us. And I 100 % believed it was done and dusted.

37:11Partly because I had done Betrayal with Tom, 2019. The show was cancelled 2018. 2019 we did Betrayal. Kevin Feige comes to see the play because he's working with Tom and knows Tom very well. I didn't have a relationship with Kevin because he wasn't involved in the Netflix show. And when I went to go and say hello to him afterwards, he didn't mention it. and I to the point where I thought maybe he doesn't even know

37:35It's Kevin Feige The Marvel police are here Yes, so I thought I literally said to my wife like I don't think he realized it was me What I later found out when he did call me was that legally wasn't allowed to speak to me about it Wow Because there was a two-year embargo. Yeah, so I got a phone call June 10th of 2020 and I and from Kevin Feige And I thought it was a prank. And yeah, and he was like, let's, you know, we've got some ideas, are you interested? Did you have any concerns at that point that, you know, you dilute by putting it on the Disney platform that it's not gonna be, Daredevil is so part and parcel gritty and raw and extreme.

38:18Well, remember it was June 10th, 2020. So everyone was thinking, will I ever have a job ever again? Will I ever, so at that point But I was not worried. Yes, my creative concerns were not present. I was like, I'm there. Where? Where? Next week? Yes. But I have had this conversation, like this is public record, you kind of even alluded to it when I talked to Vincent D 'Onofrio, like that first season of Born Again was a tough one for you guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a major creative pivot that you guys had and Vincent told me, like, you guys were kind of brother in arms, like you were in lockstep, like, we need to tell Kevin and everybody like weren't you know we need to make some changes yeah we were I think we weren't it's it's a it's an odd one to talk about and I don't know what was going on you know behind the scenes it was there was an admirable effort to I think one of the things that people had discovered with when streaming came along everyone thought that the old model the network model of a kind of like a long-running procedural type show everyone thought when streaming came along that's going to die a death they're dinosaurs they're not going to they're not going to last and the truth is it's not the case people love those shows they're incredibly addictive they're really easy to watch they're very very well written it's very difficult to write a well-written procedural and um and kevin has actually since told me that that they they were looking at that model and saying we would like to have that kind of show on a streaming platform, on Disney+.

39:53And so they were looking like, you can see, thinking, what character do we have we can do that with? Well, we have a lawyer who's also already popular. And it made a lot of sense. I think once we got into production, it very quickly became apparent that the lessons we'd learned from the movie that we had got right in the show, we were now almost unlearning a little bit. And the character really does work best in a serialized platform, but also when it's darker and grittier and there's less tongue-in-cheeks, gritty, like levity. And also, correct me if I'm wrong, also connecting to the ensemble, the characters from the past of Foggy and Karen and honoring those relationships.

40:45Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and I always must say huge credit to Marvel and those guys because it takes a huge amount of courage and money to make a U-turn like that. A major one, yeah. We're indebted to them. And they really did listen to Vincent and I. So I assume most people have seen up until this point as we take this one more episode to go in this season. It's been a great season.

41:13Does this feel like, I don't know, expect you to rank the seasons or episodes, but does this feel like a true expression of the character that you kind of always hoped for in this season? What are you proud of that you've executed this season in Born Again? There's a sweet spot. There's always been for me a sweet spot with this character and this show where it's sophisticated, it's honest, it's as truthful as you can get for a superhero, but it has like a peppering of the Marvel magic, just a peppering of it. And that garnish, when you get the right amount of it, is a great sweet spot. And there's been moments throughout this, you know, the Netflix show and also other shows that we popped up in, there's been moments where I've thought, oh, we've really found it here, this little spot.

42:07I remember in season two of the Netflix show a roundabout the trial of Frank Castle and then Elektra shows up for the first time.

42:19You know, my memory of it is we're dealing with some very serious themes. We're talking about having uncomfortable conversations in a superhero show, but uncomfortable conversations about gun control and things like that. But we've just got this Marvel magic on it. And I think this season that we've done, Dario has managed to maintain, especially when we get to the end the last few episodes, has been able to maintain whatever that little pocket is, that tone. Dario, our amazing writer, showrunner, he's managed to be as consistent with that than anyone else in this season. Obviously from the start to the Netflix show through this season, the physicality, the fight scenes are epic.

43:03I mean, you must take a lot of pride in what you guys and the whole team have been able to execute. The famous Oners, which have now kind of become a signature in the show. And, I mean, you didn't have this kind of background prior to Daredevil. You weren't, like, necessarily action hero. At all, no. Right? Yeah. So, I mean, is there one that stands out? We could cite six different, like, one-er's iconic scenes from the show. What's the one that you look at and say, like, I nailed it, we nailed it. What do you take the most pride in from an action perspective? So, from a personal point of view, the prison fight in season three...

43:43...mainly because I had to and was able to do so much of it. And it's so long. I do and also the filming of that was such an event so production it's the only time in my career this ever happened production gave us a day off filming just to rehearse which when you try and explain that to the money men, the finances that's like you don't take a day off to rehearse but in order to get that right we took a day off to rehearse everyone showed up at the prison including the camera team and the sound department, everyone and we rehearsed for an entire day. And then we came back the next day and the plan was to shoot it.

44:22It's 11 and a half pages. So it's 11 and a half minutes. And on like the second or third take, it went really well. And everyone was like, huh. And we kind of watched it. We hadn't had lunch yet. And we kind of watched it. And there was a couple of moments that were not perfect, but you could get away with it. And so everyone was like, are we going home? Anyway, the decision was made that we can do better. And every time you go back for another take of any action sequence, you have to think about the risk of injury. It's like people get hurt. We're pushing our luck. Especially as you get more tired and blah, blah, blah.

45:01Anyway, we decided to do it again. We're going to go to lunch and we're going to come back and we're going to get an even better take. So we come back from lunch and then it's just not happening. It's not happening. But you can't quit now because you've told the story that there's a better version out there and we keep going we keep going anyway a couple things happen where hot to when you get to about oh no the take is 30 minutes when we get 11 minutes in there's a dialogue scene but it's still within the wanna right and it's with a russian guy who's in prison and he'd been amazing every day all day every day before that happens i'm grabbed by a huge guy and he his choreography is to get me in the room.

45:47There's no specific choreography. So I've said to him, I'm going to do everything I can to stop you getting me in the room, so you're going to have to get me in the room. It's the only way it's going to look real. What I didn't tell him is on the last take, I had found a way to hide some mouth blood in a bottle. I found a way to hide it in one of the cells so when it was over my shoulder, I could grab it, put it in my mouth and save it. But I didn't tell that guy that. And I didn't tell the actor. So, So, we then start doing this take and it's immediately, you can tell, this is it. It's going, everything's working perfectly.

46:21It's so exciting. It's so thrilling. We get, you know, we've passed all the tricky stuff. We're probably seven or eight, nine minutes in. We get to the point, the guy grabs me. I'm fighting like hell. He gets me into the room. He shoves me against the wall and I spit the blood out that he doesn't know is there. So all I hear so the cameras on my face as I've been against the wall like this And then it very slowly pans you hear his first line and then it's very slowly pans to him Right and his first line is why you hear what you know What do you who are you and what do you want or something like that?

46:57But as he throws against the wall all I hear is oh shit And then the camera starts to pan towards him and he goes, oh, what's my line? What's my line like that? And then luckily just before it gets there he goes, who are you and what do you want? So he saved the day. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

47:24I do love that. He's like also one of the only like superheroes that actually like you feel the effort like you like hear the grunts and the screams through the fights that's that's gotta be like you can kind of like be real about it too because it takes a real effort from you I'm sure you know and lean into the exhaustion right you know yeah so there's a lot of good news good news is that again as we tape this we have one more big episode to conclude season two of born again you're also knee deep in shooting the third season yeah

47:57A lot of photos out there already, a lot of things we can assume. It seems like the Defenders gang might be reteaming.

48:08Sorry? I have no idea who you're talking about. Yeah, I'm sorry. You don't even remember who the Defenders are? That's alarming. What can you say about Season 3? I don't expect you to spill it all, but what are you excited for folks to experience from the next one? Well at least I start off with a beard

48:30Yeah, nothing I don't know I can't say anything okay, I'm just always terrified of that question What do you feel I mean in terms of just a big picture like can you imagine playing Matt Murdock Daredevil in in five years in ten years? I mean you've already put in a long run like is there enough meat on the bone still with this character for you? Charles Sewell who's a wonderful comic book writer just released last year I think a new Daredevil run I think it's called I forget that I think it's called A Cold Day in Hell in which Matt Murdock I think is in his late 60s, 70s so I and Charles sent me sent it to me and I read it and I was like I mean it's and it's so it's wonderful it's so beautiful but I was like well there you go That buys me another 20 years.

49:22And we did kind of like joke about it earlier, obviously it does seem obviously being part of the MCU now and we've gotten to see you with Peter Parker and She-Hulk, etc. and now with Secret Wars and Doomsday, it does feel like there's opportunity. I mean, again, I don't expect you to spill anything, but like the idea of getting to interact with more and more characters in this universe must be really thrilling. Yes, I mean, yes. Marvel have kind of been clear with me, for now at least, that I'm focusing on the show. That's our focus. That really is the truth. What does Vincent say? Because he knows the future.

49:57Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I should go to him. Yeah, and it's one of the things that obviously is the fans of the MCU love it when the characters kind of clash. So we'll see. But right now, I'm certainly focused on our show. Again, having played this character so much, you must act as his greatest advocate. Do you feel like you sometimes have that role on set? And I would imagine, as the years go by, having more creative input, you're defending, knowing what you do about the character in the comics. My Matt Murdock, my Daredevil would or wouldn't do this. Do you find yourself in that position?

50:37I very rarely find that I'm put in that position. Like the process that we go through. I mean, and the writers and the creators are so strong. The material we're getting is so good. But I will, I mean, on the way over here, I was reading two scripts and I messaged Dario as I read them, said, these are great, it was so exciting. This scene is gonna be iconic, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. And then I'll find time to get on the phone with him and there'll be cadences that I don't, I'm just not sure that Matt Murdock quite speaks in that rhythm. But we're talking about minor details. But those are the details, those little nuances, bizarrely as minor as they can seem to me, they are really important.

51:23And I know they are for Vincent as well. I love it when we come up with little ideas, Matt Murdock things that have come from us because we've embodied the characters for so long. A lot of the stuff actually is not so much dialogue. It's actually like, they'll write a scene and I'll have an idea about that scene. I'll give you an example. In the end of episode eight of Born Again season one, right before, when Frank Castle is in my apartment. So I shop back at my apartment and he's already there. and the way it was written was I walk in and I say and he says something to me and I walk in and he speaks to me right and on the day I said to them look I think it's fun I know he's in my apartment from two or three blocks away and he knows that I know he's in my apartment from two or three blocks away so I said why don't because we know that as the characters why don't we delay the gratification for the audience so why don't you have me walk into an empty apartment seemingly sit down and then seemingly say to no one what you know couldn't you have knocked or whatever the line is i don't remember it is and then reveal him and that's a very matt murdoch thing that wasn't on the page but it was like an idea that came because we know the characters so well big picture speaking like where are your ambitions outside of daredevil keeps you quite busy it's it's a big time commitment but like theater film tv a type of role like what are you chasing at this point outside of the marvel honestly fatherhood yeah like is is like as much time as possible uh with with my kiddos um and this job bizarrely is actually wonderful for that because although i'm away during the week a lot um it really does give me the freedom to to to not work for the second half of the year if I don't want to or if it's not something that I can figure out around my family.

53:32So that, I've got young children, I'm acutely aware. Did you ever see that interview or that clip with,

53:41I told you this is behind stage, I'm terrible with names. With Better Call Saul. Oh, Bob Oden. Bob Oden, yes. Did you see, have you ever seen this clip where he did a podcast and they asked him, Who do you envy? And his answer is, anyone with young children still in the house. I did hear that. Yes. Yes. That was the happiest time in his life. Yeah. And I'm lucky in that I'm not missing it. I'm acutely aware of how wonderful it is. Yeah. And it just makes me want to not miss a single second of it, you know. It's pretty cool. I also said this backstage. It's pretty cool having a six-year-old boy who's obsessed with superheroes and has just discovered that his dad is one.

54:23That's pretty cool. I was actually saying, like, I was having a conversation.

54:30I was having a conversation in the car with my children this morning on the way to a soccer game, and they were asking me about when is the job going to end, when I'm going to be home, whatever they were asking. And they said, you know, when, you know, and are you going to do Daredevil again next year? I can't remember what the conversation was, but I eventually ended up saying, look, you know, at some point it will come to an end. I won't always be this character. And my son went, what? He was absolutely horrified. Stop the car, Dad. We have to talk about this. And then the next thing he goes, but what am I going to tell Alex?

55:08So, yeah, so that's the first thing. But outside of that, I'd love to do some more theatre. I'd love to do some more theatre here. and I'd love to kind of the early part of my career was movies and then transitioned into television I've been recently doing in my off season I've been doing a few films here and there and it would be great to transition back into that a little bit I think Excellent, excellent Well keep doing Daredevil, don't disappoint Alex No, sure, exactly We end Happy Second Fuse with the profoundly random questions. You ready for this, Charlie? Yeah. Okay, here we go. Who wrote them?

55:52They're mine. Blame me. Dogs or cats? Dogs. Are you a current dog owner? Yep. Okay, we have lots of I've always been a dog guy. Multiple? Certain kinds? Certain breed? What's your... All different breeds. We currently have a Border Terrier and I always wanted one. And we never had one until this time. So, yeah. What do you collect, if anything? What do I collect? Well, I used to collect DVDs. Well, I started with VHS and then DVDs. I still have them. The actual collection is somewhere? When I lived in a small London apartment, I made a terrible decision of removing them from the cases. I did the same thing.

56:40They're in sleeves. I know. And it's funny because we were talking about when I did the Kevin McCarthy podcast. Yes. And he said to me, do you still watch them? And I said, yes. But it does slightly depend on how much it is to rent the movie. Because if it's$3.99, I've got to go. I'm with you. I've been there. But I do have DVDs. I don't think it's something else. Do you have a favorite video game of all time? Yeah, I'm not a video game guy either. Okay. But it would be Donkey Kong. Classic. The Dakota Johnson memorial question, she asked me this, I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

57:27One bee in my butt is funnier. Wait, can I ask you these as well? I'm happy to. I'm a one bee in the butt kind of guy. I think we're at that stage in the relationship. And collectibles? Movie posters, I'm on brand. What do you think? What's the wallpaper on your phone? Oh, it's a plant. I don't know what plant. Interesting. Yeah. How'd that happen? You like the plant? Yeah, and then I just wanted something different and I don't know how I got there. I don't quite know how I got there. Family's overrated, just I'm going to do a plant. Yeah, but it's just a leaf. It's a leafy plot. It's weird. It's fine.

58:15I don't know how I got there. And I'm not 100 % sure I know how to change it. There's the real answer. Who's the last actor you were mistaken for? Oh.

58:30I think Rob Patterson. I think that's happened a couple of times. Yeah. I mean, another brooding superhero. It has happened. I'll tell you who it used to happen a lot with. Rupert Friend. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it happened a couple of times with Rupert Friend. If you could trade places, if you could be Batman instead of Daredevil, would you take that deal? No. No, Batman's cool. I mean, two of the coolest. Batman's cool, but... But? But, he's got a cloak. Damn capes, yeah. And also, he can't move his neck. What's that about? Yeah, they haven't figured that out yet. Well, none of them. They can't figure out how to move the neck.

59:09What's the worst note a director has ever given you? The worst note? Well, it's not a director, but I did get told in an audition once, in an audition, it said in the script, he weeps or something. And the casting at that point where he's supposed to cry, it was very hard to cry, the cast it just went.

59:37Like it's a button you can press or something. And in the spirit of Happy Second Fuse, who's an actor you see on screen that always makes you happy? You're in a better mood as soon as you see them. On screen? Yeah. Jim Carrey.

59:56A movie that makes you sad. Can you answer that one as well? So many. I mean, we were talking backstage, sad, no, we lost Gene Hackman. I mean, he's my all-time favorite, maybe. Movie that makes you sad? Sports movies. That's the movies that, yeah, like, I will cry. Rudy or a... 100%, and I'm not even an American football guy, you know, what you guys call football. I'm not an American football guy, but, yeah, any sports movie, you name it, like, Rocky, you know, Rudy, any given Sunday, you know, just you name it. Sports movies get me every single time. You asked Pacino to give the speech, the locker room speech, when you worked with him?

1:00:34It's so good, isn't it? It's so good. And finally, a food that makes you confused, Charlie. You don't understand it. Why do people eat this?

1:00:46Oh, um... What's that thing? What's the thing? Is it like in sushi? I love sushi. What? No, I like wasabi. Is it uni? Someone else just told me uni recently. This came up. Yeah. What is that? Yeah. What is that? With sea urchins, technically. And also, people are real foodies are like, well, you don't really love food if you don't eat, you know. Right, right. Oh. Yeah. It tastes so wrong. I wish I could remember. Yes, literally, like, one of the last guests on this show mentioned uni. There is a hate of uni going around. I also, I'm one of those people that if I eat coriander, I taste soap. Oh, one of them, yeah.

1:01:23Yeah. Yeah, I got you. Okay, okay. We'll get it out of your goodie bag on the way out. What's your food one? Beets, not a beets guy. I don't mind cooked beets. Can't do it in any form, I'm sorry. Really? This is where the friendship ends here tonight. No, I've had a blast getting to know you tonight. Likewise, thank you. I've wanted to do this for a long while. Daredevil, Born Again, Disney Plus, one more episode and another season to come. Check it out, spread the good word. Everybody, Charlie Cox, everybody. Thank you. That was so fun, I really appreciate you. Thank you. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.

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