Harris Dickinson

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0:44Denis Villanova is doing James Bond. That makes James Bond suddenly pretty damn interesting. That's true. No, and also the role of James Bond is interesting. The circumstances of Bond are interesting. like the character the world, what he goes through that's interesting you have a director like Denise there's no doubt that they're going to be I'd like to start manifesting that could be interesting have you thought about that have you even in your mind's eye thought about I don't know that is an idea of course prepare your ears humans happy, sad, confused begins now Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy Sad Confused.

1:31Today on the show, it's Harris Dickinson, one of our bright up-and-coming actors who also happens to now be an excellent filmmaker. We're talking about his new film, Urchin. It is in theaters soon. A lot to catch up on with Harris, who's never done the pod before. Very excited to share this one with all of you. Before we get to that, I'm going to mention a bunch of upcoming events very quickly, as always, check out our Patreon. That's where we put all the early access, discount codes, autographed merch, patreon.com slash happy, say it confused. In no discernible order, I will mention these events.

2:04October 14th in New York City at the 92nd Street Y, I'm catching up with Aziz Ansari. I say catching up. I've never actually had him on the podcast, though way back when, early in my career, early in his career, our paths did cross a few times. Excited to talk to him about this one because the new film is really fun. Very entertaining, big screen comedy. Imagine that, a great comedy in theaters. You'll be able to see Good Fortune at this special event at 9 Second Street Y followed by a live podcast taping of Happy Second Fused. The movie is truly great. It has Keanu Reeves, Seth Rogen, Aziz, many others.

2:41Check it out. Even before that, if you're at Comic-Con, you're going to probably bump into me whether you like it or not. I'm doing about six or seven different events. Among them, we are going to be doing a 10th anniversary reunion of Mr. Robot with Rami Malek and Christian Slater and creator Sam Esmail. We're doing a special alien event with Sigourney Weaver. We're doing a special Matrix event with Lawrence Fishburne. We're doing an X-Men event with James McAvoy and Nicholas Holt. I'm moderating the Star Trek Universe panel. and there's one or two other things that I haven't been able to mention yet but I will soon so hopefully you've gotten your tickets by now to New York Comic Con look out for me come say hi, cheer me on and enjoy all the fantastic nerddom that is New York Comic Con every year, I love it alright, let's talk Harry Stickinson briefly before we get to the actual conversation this is a conversation that was recorded at the Telluride Film Festival I love, you've heard me talk about the Telluride Film Festival um adore this festival it's it's brings out great films great filmmakers it is a chill vibe um I spoke to Harris early one morning relatively early one morning um during the festival it was very nice of him to carve out this time this was the only interview I think he did at the festival uh because he wanted to catch up and um just a couple notes reminder whatever little things to note, this is literally recorded on an iPhone, like at a condo in Telluride.

4:15So it's not going to win any awards for best presentation, but we got it. We got the video. We got the audio. We got the conversation. Harris and I were chatting, you know, in the middle of a film festival. Your brain's a little bit fried, but you know, enough apologies. This is a great conversation. We warmed up. He warmed up. He's delightful. I'll mention his new film, Urchin, again. We talk about it extensively in the conversation, but I highly recommend this one. I was so impressed when I saw this. This is his feature directing debut. He has a small part in it, but it really features Stephen Delaney front and center.

4:53Oh, Frank Delaney. Stephen Delaney is the dad. I have that right, right? Yeah, Stephen Delaney. I think it's Delaney. Anyway, Frank front and center as a homeless guy in the UK with mental issues, anger issues, addiction issues, a really interesting character study, fantastic leading performance, and just a sublime piece of filmmaking. Really impressive for somebody relatively so young, let's just say it, Harris just starting out. So very excited for what's to come for him as a filmmaker. This is in theaters in the US in just about a week, I think October 10th, UK, around the same time. Check it out.

5:31Put it on your list, truly. But this is also his first time on the podcast, so we talk about everything. You know, whether it's Baby Girl, his, you know, flirtation with Big Budge Things, his upcoming Beatles film he's doing with Paul Meskel and Barry Keoghan and Joe Quinn and Sam Mendes. So much exciting stuff happening for Harris, and you'll see from this conversation. He's just a real, legit, good dude, and like a true film lover. So, really excited this happened. And I hope you enjoy the conversation. I hope you put Urchin on your list of things to do, films to prioritize in the coming weeks.

6:08It's a busy season, a lot of great movies, and Urchin is a small one, but check it out. Support independent filmmaking. Support the great Harris Dickinson. Here it is, my chat, Telluride Film Festival, me and Harris Dickinson. Enjoy. We're jumping off a cliff together, Harris Dickinson. I don't know if it's the ideal circumstance for a podcast. It is in some ways. Congratulations, we're at Telluride. There's worse places to be doing it. That is true. You know? But I just want to like... Feels organic. Feels organic. We just bumped into each other. We did yesterday. We did yesterday. A couple of times.

6:40But yeah, I want to set the scene for folks. It's a little early for us and it's a festival. So we might only turn coherent about halfway through. Yeah. You might get 20 minutes of okay content. Yeah. That's my standard. But as I was saying to you before, I think sometimes being a little tired, helps because if you're like, I don't know about you, but if I'm really awake and like too wired, too caffeinated and like really there, I tend to be more, um, over thinking or like over cautious. Right. Whereas like if I'm a little more, there's an element of tranquility that kind of helps me just cope with things.

7:23Perfect. Um, but, but you know, yeah, intelligence might not be there. We don't need intelligence from you. No, we do. No, it's good to see you, man. Congratulations, first of all. I've told you this, but for the record, you killed it with this. I'm writing, directing your first feature film, Urchin, is why we're talking today. Okay, before we get to Urchin, though, again, we're in Telluride. First Telluride? First Telluride, yeah. That's the way to do it. How many times have you done it? This is my fourth. I'm going to come as long as they'll have me. Because you're a day in, but you can tell it's a pretty cool one.

7:57It's a beautiful festival, man. I like it a lot. Yeah, I like it a lot. I mean, the setting is like nothing else I've experienced. Certainly as a Brit, there's nothing like this in the UK in terms of settings go. And then just the feeling of the festival as well. Like the first day I got here, walking around and experiencing the moviegoers and the actual experience of it is totally unique. Like, yeah, to anything else I've been to. running into you first yesterday. They had this nice little brunch that starts off, and it's like, I don't know about you, that's, I mean, we have some friends, some people we know, but a lot of, you know, it's like Jodie Foster's in one corner, and it's just, it's craziness.

8:39I found myself in a conversation with you, Paul Meskel, and Jeremy Allen White, who I'd never met, and I was like, one of these does not belong. I need to get out of this quartet right now. Oh, no, no, I think they probably all feel the same, man. But how are you in those kind of circumstances? Are you leaning on familiar faces, friends, or can you kind of acclimate, I don't know, to that intensity? Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I really love meeting people. I do, and I think those things open you up to that in the most sort of intense way. You know, you get like all different types of interactions.

9:13And I don't know. I do find it quite interesting having those experiences with new people. But I mean, it's cool coming here with a film because you speak to people that have either seen the film or, you know, looking forward to it or not. And then you get different to your work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've got notes. But yeah. And then it's nice to bump into mates and see people like Paul and Jeremy. Yeah. Who did meet anybody yet so far in your travels? Have you met any new faces that you have some admiration for? I met Billy Crudup. last night and I had a little chat with Naird Bumbach who's very cool yeah I'm a fan yeah I'm looking forward to seeing his film have you seen much already?

10:01I've seen a couple let's see last night I saw the new Springsteen film yeah I'm seeing that today Jeremy kills it yeah like yeah come on of course he does it's iconic man I'm excited yeah it's a tall task and he lives up to it yeah yeah and then so Colin Farrell do his thing in the new Ed Berger movie it's funny I had dinner in London with Jeremy just before he started that. And he's so chill. Like, he's such a chill, like, guy. I mean, maybe he won't say the same, but, like, he just seems so... No, I've never had that the first time I met him, so, yeah. Yeah, he just seems so relaxed going into such a huge thing.

10:36I imagine you have to, like, self-preservation for a role like that. I mean, click into a different gear, or else you're going to, like, tear yourself apart for six months. Have you seen Hamnit yet? I'm seeing it today. Oof. That was me last night. It's going to wreck me. Yes. Yes. I couldn't speak after. And I was sort of immediately bumped. Spoke to Jesse and Paul and I just didn't know what to say. And I feel so inarticulate after those things when you're kind of hit by such a monumental experience. You don't know how to kind of verbalize your feelings. And I found myself sort of telling Jesse about her own film.

11:15And I was like, shut up. like what you can say right now just like you know And I'm like just shut up like and then I tried to think what is interesting to me After I've just watched my own film when what is interesting to me is to hear people's genuine thoughts, right? Like a genuine reaction not just a that was amazing, right? Which is all sometimes we can muster is that was phenomenal, right? Like that was one beautiful work, but actually what I always love is hearing honest particulars or like observations and then i also sometimes like hearing negatives you know maybe maybe i don't share the same with my film that i've made but like if i'm in something i always have a good distance for someone to be like yeah i did it like that's amazing like i told you about that dude i think i spoke to you about before that the guy in the supermarket supermarket that was sort of gave me his feedback on triangle sadness ending i was like okay i can't for you to meet up with him again for Urchin at the same supermarket.

12:15Make it a routine. Listen, get him on the podcast. We'll do a little special. And he can just rip into all of my films. Before we rip into all your films, no, we're not. What is it like to see your friends kill it on screen? To see your contemporaries? Because I love this group you're in because, I don't know, it feels like you're these true cineasts. like you love Criterion Closet and Letterboxd like the rest of us. Yeah. Where like, I don't know, it's a different kind of generation of young talent now that I see that really like is in it for the right reasons. Yeah, you think? I do think, genuinely.

12:53Yeah. No, I mean, you and Paul are so cut from the same cloth. Yeah, I mean, it's lovely. I mean, it always feels like the best kind of fuel to want to keep doing good stuff, to see your friends. working with exceptional people and turning in these beautiful performances. And then it's a weird one, isn't it? Because you observe these people's work from afar and then the beautiful thing is then you get to work with them and you get to act alongside them. So it's one of those really... You're going to spend a lot of time with Paul. We'll get to that. I already am. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I'm super proud of him, man.

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17:00All right, let's talk, let's talk Urchin. Like I said, I mean, like, look, I've seen a lot of like, you know, actors, young actors try their hand at writing and directing. And often they can feel like, you know, raw, unformed. They're not quite there yet. They're vanity projects sometimes. And this just like really, and from the time it debuted at Cannes, I think people were so justifiably impressed with what you did here. I know you've been making short films for a bit. So this didn't come out of nowhere. But I don't know like did have you wanted to direct and write as long as you've wanted to act like how did this kind of develop?

17:32Yeah, I think I probably wanted to direct before acting really took over. I mean, I was um I was making skateboard videos as as a 10 11 year old and then I started making it I had a sketch show that I used to make on YouTube and then I made these short films that were a little more dramatic and I used to sort of rope my family into helping me and um i used to use you know friends and stuff and shoot on a little hand sony handycam that i saved up for so that was my that was my sort of in introduction into film and i thought at one point i was i was going to be a camera operator i was really sort of set on that because i didn't know the wider context of of sort of a role within film I guess I just sort of knew you know the making of it filming and editing and then as I got a bit older I started to understand the craft a bit more and then I was working on set a little bit as a as a runner during college and then I I was always writing like I was I was writing as I said I was writing the short films and I was writing some plays and and then acting I discovered acting a similar time but I never weirdly I never mixed the two like I never I never appeared in my own films and then film school felt quite intangible like it was very expensive and I was looking at a few places in the states and it just didn't seem realistic and so acting was probably more realistic for me at the time because I had there was a local theater school that I could go to and then I went to college and studied film and theater and I had a bad experience with my film teacher.

19:21He was a really tricky man. Like I've spoken about it in depth in other press and stuff. But like, I think he kind of put me off of like - Of directing. Of a film a little bit. Yeah, like he, and so, and then acting became a bit more of a, it was a bit closer to me. I started to, I did a bit of theater and then I started to get auditions for various different things. So it was like, okay, I'll go with this. It builds its own momentum. It's like you're there. It's happening. Exactly. And then I was working other jobs whilst I was auditioning. So it was like, okay, the running, and I was still doing some stuff on set as a second assistant AC or just a runner and trying to kind of climb both ladders at the same time.

20:05but at a certain point it felt like foolish to try and prioritize the filmmaking because I was getting opportunities in the acting world. I was going to say, this is like a big choice for someone at your juncture in your career because like the opportunities are right now. Yeah. Fast and furious. Like this is what many actors work for. Yeah. And to take this time out. Yeah, it was scary. It was scary. Take yourself off the market essentially for a year probably. Yeah. Whatever it was. Yeah. It's a big thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a strange one because I think, and it was a slow build because I made a short film with the BBC when I was 22.

20:42And it was just as I was sort of, as I was finishing Trying the Sadness, I was finishing making that short film and I was kind of editing it remotely in Greece and stuff, which is mad. But then we came home, we screened it at London Film Festival and then BBC said to us, if you've got anything longer. And I immediately was like, yes, I do. I've got this script ready like it was this 130 page script and it was urchin but it was it was in a different form okay and it was much longer and it was probably really bad and then and then and then again it was like a three-year period of trying to get the film finance but once we got to a point where I said okay there's a certain point I do have to commit to making this film because I can't just take acting work and you know no you only have one shot at a first film and this is going to set the bar for your yeah if you indeed want to do this as a career yeah but it was a risk because it wasn't fully financed right up until the last minute so so there was there was a period where i was i was uh you know not taking opportunities and my team were a bit like your film's not financed me like what are you doing real thing i was like it will happen it will happen and then um i just knew i know i know it sounds like cliche or or pretentious, but I had this deep, like, burning thing inside of me to have to make the film.

22:04And I sort of knew it was the time to do it. And I couldn't, I couldn't wait any longer. I know, I know, we had to wait for finance, but it was I had to do it now. And I had to try and make it possible, you know. So where does this come from? For those that don't know, this is, I mean, very much a character piece. This is about a guy, Mike, who's kind of caught between the cracks of a system that's you know he's in this horrible cycle that we you know we all know in the UK and the US and indeed many places around the world where he's got you know mental issues addiction issues a lot going on and can't break out of it and it's a tragic but very human story um that seemingly I mean look I don't know you that well but like I don't know like how do you connect with this character with this this this world yeah i think like i think people from the outside that don't know me and know my experience or know what i'm involved in probably see me and see the work i've done they go what you know right what's going on like how what the fuck do you know about this like but i think you know i spent i spent a lot of time and years and hours working in that community in my local community um with various charities that focus on um helping people that I experienced in homelessness.

23:21And my dad's a social worker as well. So I've grown up around those kinds of stories a lot. And I think I've always been intrigued by like cyclical behavior in general, because it's also something I've sort of watched various people in my life deal with. Sure. And we can call it addiction, but really it's like more than addiction and more nuanced than addiction. It's like how we repeat patterns, right? Yes. On a very basic level, like how um at the end of the day unsophisticated we are yeah you know in our makeup you know like how how how vulnerable we are as people right and so i wanted to try and tap into that with with mike someone that's similar age to me um despite uh despite everything else really he's sort of battling against himself you know which is so common with people that have been through a degree of trauma and and i think homelessness is is um is the backdrop rather than the focus of it you know and uh i think it was always important for me to fully understand that world and fully experience that world truthfully but then not be tied to the sort of um the rules of social realism right and i think that in order for us to break those rules we we had to really allow scrutiny of the the script like for example like the the two years leading up to the shoot we had like so many advisors come in and like you know attack the script in the best way possible because it for me it was important that we were we were sort of coming at it from a truthful perspective but then it enabled us to then go somewhere else right and and it was and And it was interesting to me to try and tell a story like this in a way that wasn't just like bogged down with a tragedy of those circumstances.

25:19I think like even from working in that community and I still very much involved, it's like there is a great deal of tragedy, of course, and severity to it. But at the same time, what exists alongside it is exuberance and comedy and fullness. and you know right it's not 24 7 misery of course no one's life is thankfully no no and because and oftentimes but you find that people that have gone to the sort of the brink of morality or experience or also yeah also exists alongside of that is this kind of fullness of life which which i wanted to try and tap into and celebrate as well and give a new sort of lens to that experience you mentioned kind of like, look, you definitely lean in and we've talked about your influence of Ken Loach and Mike Lee and that kind of thing, but you do kind of at certain points kind of go for it a little bit and kind of break out of kind of the realism.

26:20Was that a debate, it sounds like, or kind of like what are those choices about in terms of like you could have certainly just made this feel total docudrama, but you chose to kind of go a little lynchian a couple times. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, even if you like, I mean, I've gotten rid of my old shorts, but my old shorts, even from when I was a kid, they really did dance the line between like surrealism and realism. And I've always been interested in that because I am interested in fantasy as well. And I'm interested in how we kind of, as people, look for escape as well, right? And I think it was, is it important if we're talking about addiction, trauma, and also So what comes into that is sort of escapism and surrealism as well.

27:10And like what the mind can do in those circumstances. And then, yeah, I think like the likes of Mike Lee, like I think Ken Loach is a different, I see them in much different realms because Mike Lee finds way more absurdity in the everyday, right? or the sort of humor in the absurdity of people, the sort of silliness of who we are, right? And I think that really fascinates me as well. But yeah, I mean, I'm also like, I think the people I love the most, people like Lynne Ramsey or Agnes Varda that also play with a more sort of cinematic, or Leo Carracks, you know, people that can create really realistic set of circumstances and then take the audience on a more cinematic experience.

28:01I always find really interesting and challenging, you know, like also like it can be pretentious. Like my ideas, I could, it's a fine line. And I was constantly worried about, you know, feeling like I was trying to do something that was ultimately going to be pretentious. And I think that was a conversation we constantly had, especially with DOP who is like allergic to that and was always like challenging it and in the best way possible. So was I. What about, okay. I mean, Frank delivers an amazing performance in this year lead Frank Delaney. Like, remarkable. Yeah. I haven't seen him in a ton of things.

28:35I mean, I know his work and his dad's work obviously. I mean, remarkable, but you take a smaller supporting role in this. Yeah. We had an actor drop out last minute for that role. Oh, is that right? Yeah. We had someone lined up and then ultimately. I can have a bloody nose. I can do that. I can do that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, talk to me about, you know, directing actors, directing, again, a peer. Was it a joyous experience? Is it a stressful experience? Kind of like, I don't know, like, what are your directions like to Frank? Or do you kind of let him have free reign? I mean, we were quite specific.

29:13I mean, I think we were lucky we had rehearsals. We had, like, a week and a bit of rehearsals before. And also, what was great with Frank is that we had, he signed on a long time before like even before we had full finance and he kind of committed to the film and agreed to start prepping with me like long before it was a real thing yeah yeah and I think that really gave us like we gave us like seven eight months of just oh wow working together and he you know I connected him with various different people and he was also working in the community and stuff and so it kind of gave us this really slow uh gentle build into it where we were getting to know each other in a way that was like quite personal and then in terms of on set i think that frank is someone who's i mean he's been to drama school he's done you know he's a technical actor he'll he'll he'll come in with a lot of ideas and it was a mixture i mean sometimes i would i would try and free him of those choices because he's you know you sort of come in with ideas you kind of want to break break away from that and try and see what happens in the moment and he's i mean he's the most he's the most versatile um uh sort of cantankerous kind of actor i mean in the most positive way like he will really give you everything and um he won't mind me saying this but sometimes those that those everything's don't work and he knows sure yeah and he's brave enough to try that that those things and i i love that because it's like you get these really bold choices that um like even in the audition room he came in and he was reading the scene between him and andrea and he was it was like an argument scene but he read it like really gently and he was like doing tai chi i was like okay this is i think this is the guy like um because also that kind of role like in british cinema there are you know if you think that there's a stereotype right the sort of unruly young man criminal like there's a stereotype and I think we were really keen to try and flip that on its head and find a new way of experiencing this kind of character Frank was the perfect mix of all those things but yeah he's deeply sensitive and thoughtful so he's he's just the kind of actor that will think so deeply about stuff and really offer a lot so it's just a director's dream really what's it been like slightly now on the other side of this now where it's starting to be seen by people film festivals and soon by a wider audience i mean like i said the can reception was pretty phenomenal it must have been a hell of a moment you'd been to camp before but to be there as a filmmaker and to be well received it must just be such an exhale yeah you're in your own head for years and then oh man yeah it was the most vulnerable thing Cam was like I don't think I've ever been so nervous for something before I've managed to kind of cope with those things in the past by you know you're more of someone else's machine yeah right yeah and or I've I've kind of managed to like numb my emotions by not by just kind of being playing it cool and not not allowing myself to experience things fully yeah and that means I've also been able to cope with it yeah I get it but this this experience with my own film I really tried to allow myself to experience it properly and so I think I sort of checked in with myself and was like look just let yourself feel something you're allowed just yeah you're allowed to feel something here and it also meant I was incredibly nervous though it also meant I went into that screening and was yeah you know terrified like a like a little child and then um you know 10 minutes in and you're feeling the energy in the room and you're feeling laughed and it's like the most you know it's the warmest reception you could ask for and everyone's kind of you know with you it feels like they're with the film and and then of course people people like it and whatever but more than more than that it's like it resonated and people got what we were trying to say and people got the got the message or whatever it is and so it was just yeah it was a rewarding and vulnerable.

33:23Yeah. And of course, then we party and you go crazy and then you do it. Yeah. Now we do it again at Telluride all over again. Tell me a little bit more about like, so you've talked with me and others about influences growing up, you know, Mike Lee's the Ken Loachers, et cetera. I mean, that couldn't have been the first stuff you were watching. No, you don't dive right into Mike Lee as a kid. You find that as a teenager, presumably. Yeah, as a young teenager, I mean, my mom's, My mum sort of noticed when I was making those short films, she sort of noticed that I was sort of getting into more like drama, like I guess representing people that were around us as well in our like world.

34:06And she put me on to the Mike Lee, the Shane Meadows stuff. But then, and same with my dad, you know, my dad would put me on to bits. But again, yeah, normal like entrance into cinema was just the tentpole. blockbusters and and the the stuff that we had on uh vhs and stuff my older brothers so they always used to watch yeah a lot of things that i shouldn't be watching i remember like you know the donnie darko or the american beauty and that was always like quite disturbing or the butterfly effect like those um very young and then and then yeah we had a cinema near us that we used to sneak into and change our date of birth on our passport and stuff and do all of that but no I wasn't particularly um not a person cinema as a as a kid no Harry Potter kid no not really not really people tried to get me in people tried to like force me to be like a Harry Potter kid because my name Harris Harry people called me Harry so it was like oh you must be you know buying me all the like wands and shit I was like I don't know if That's me.