Jason Fuchs

25:14But because animated films used to be primarily composed by the storyboard artists, the union that covers it is the union that covers the story artists. So they're not there for the most part animated films are still not Guild covered because they are covered by this other this other union. So it's it's not lucrative in the sense of, you know, you're writing these movies that make a billion dollars. You're not really exploiting that aspect of the financial success. But you don't need to because that was a life-changing job. I went from being an actor who was trying to convince people maybe I was a writer to last first time that that rom-com that I'd written landing on the desk of an executive at Fox Animation who then brought me in.

25:54This is gosh I was 23 turning 24 so I was just out of college brought me in to meet on it said we're making another Ice Age. Are you a fan of the films? I said of course I am. I at that point had not seen the Ice Age films. And she said, well, we're making another one and there's got to be pirates in it. And I went, great. I don't know a lot about the Ice Age, but best of my knowledge, there were not pirates. And she went, figure it out. The science isn't settled. We don't know that. We don't know that. And so I went home and I watched all the Ice Age films, which at that point were the first three back to back to back and actually fell in love with them and found them charming and smart.

26:34And I just, I actually ended up loving them and came back the following week and said, here's how I would find my way into an Ice Age sequel. And I think they'd read the rom-com and liked the sort of romantic comedy elements and wanted to find a way to imbue an Ice Age film with some of that energy. And so, yeah, my life changed. It was a two-year exclusive deal. There was not going to be any acting involved when you're sitting at Blue Sky Studios and then Greenwich, Connecticut, working on those movies. So it really was a point of departure. It was, do you want to continue on this route that is primarily focused on acting, where writing is a part of your life, or do you want to go be a real writer?

27:10And I was very aware of how hard it was to break into screenwriting. And I was very aware in looking at some of the IMDb's of my favorite screenwriters, that even really successful screenwriters oftentimes did not have a lot of produced credits. And so the fact that I was standing at the beginning of my writing career with an opportunity not just to get paid as a writer and write something fun that I could care about. But also we had a release date before I'd ever started writing on the film. This was a movie that whatever I did, whether I played it out or not, the movie was coming out by hook or by crook the summer of 2012.

27:47So it was a life-changing opportunity. And I said yes and leapt in with both feet and really never looked back. So this next thing I want to talk about is probably like a six-hour conversation, but I want you to summarize a little bit for me because the emotional rollercoaster of Pan must be huge for you. Because I know this is a passion project that you want to do for a long, long while. And look, the stages of excitement and disappointment, perhaps, or whatever must have been massive. Wait, wait, wait. Was it not well received? I've not yet read your - Am I the one breaking - You're telling me people didn't like that movie?

28:24I appreciate your humility. This is devastating. No, the sequel is still in development. But look, I mean, getting Joe Wright signing on, what a moment. Getting Hugh, I'm going to be in your movie. Amazing. And then you make it, and then this passion project, it doesn't do what you wanted it to do, obviously. So I don't know. Perspective now, decade later, what do you look back on for Pam? Great experience. Truly. Truly a great experience. I think that one of the things I've gotten good at, and maybe to some degree always had an ability to do, was appreciate the wins. The business is hard. Life is hard.

29:09And I know that there are certainly, you know, I watched The Last Dance, and I'm a huge basketball fan, and you listen to Michael Jordan, and it's, you know, nothing mattered until it was the championship, right? You know, all right, doesn't matter. We beat the pitch. No, all that matters is the ring, and everything else is suffering and pain, and there's one win, and that's it. I can't, you know, much as I love Michael Jordan, I was raised a Knicks fan. I had to find the wins where I could. You made it to the playoffs, that was a win. Got to the conference finals, that was a win. And I actually think being a Knicks fan was a fairly healthy way to grow up because it did make you, it taught you to appreciate that there are different moments in the journey, even if the journey doesn't go to the destination that was initially your target, that are still valuable and fun.

29:57and worthwhile. And so, yeah, you sit down and come up with something like Pan and your hope is let's go make something really successful that people can like. And we started that journey and there were many wins along the way. You get your script sold. That's a win. They're making it. That's a win. You get Hugh Jackman's doing it. Win, win. By the way, now you're having a movie made, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be involved. Oftentimes, as we hinted at earlier in this conversation, there's a rotating carousel of writers And who knows if I get to go to set, I get to go to set. I get to go be a part of the making of my first live action film.

30:33So along the way, there were just all these wins. And then the outcome not being something that any of us would have wanted, which is say a movie, it was a big old flop. You just go in the moment you go. That's that's a bummer. But I would also say that it was the feeling of frustration was muted by not just how much I'd enjoyed the process, but it was muted also by the fact you could see it coming. I think that if that movie had had all the good buzz and all the vibes heading into opening weekend and then out of nowhere, the thing crashed and burned, I think I would have been much more jarred by it.

31:11But we all look at, you know, with tracking and you all look at sort of the buzz. And so it was a far more slow-moving disaster where over months and months of leading up to it, you go, oh, this is not going to work. This is not going to work. And so by the time it didn't work, it was almost a relief to be done with it not working because you went, okay, that happened. What can we learn from this? How do I approach my next project? And that's what I did, and I learned a lot from it. and it's it's I don't look back really with any regrets about it because it changed it changed my life uh in some ways even more than I staged it it really opened up a series of new opportunities uh remarkably despite the fact the film was was poorly received and I made some some really important professional relationships in the context of making that I love Joe I love Greg Berlanti and Sarah Schechter who produced it so yeah I think you kind of have to be able to accept that not everything will always result in the outcome you've initially envisioned.

32:10But I also think it's part of what set me on a path, frankly, to making Welcome to Dairy, because I think that most writers have the experience of seeing the thing they've written in their head. And whether it works or not, it's harder when the finished product does not as closely resemble what you had in your brain. And being a showrunner, being a creator, you have a greater ability to shape the thing and to sort of force it in the direction of what you first saw in your head when you were writing it, when you're envisioning it. So I don't know that showrunning or any of that was on my radar back when I made Pan, but the idea that I wanted to have a greater level of control, whether it's producing or showrunning or whatever that position is that allows me to to guide something and deliver for better or for worse the things I saw for good or for bad this is what I wanted to make and you judge it on your terms but at least it's mine it's it's very close to what I wanted to make and that's yes there's some reassurance there totally yeah so that's really what I took from pan

33:21sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need from athletic stuff like a full court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff, like a half-mile stroll. Get those steps in. And for morning hikes up the mountain trail, good pace, to nighttime ghost stories from the camping chair. What a twist. Whatever level of active, Sierra loves it all. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels.

33:59At Blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50 ,000 five-star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you're DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure. save up to 40 % when you buy two or more. Rules and restrictions apply.

34:26So Wonder Woman is obviously, that's a win. We got to take that as a big win. So you have a story credit on Wonder Woman. There are a few writers on that one. Give me a sense of the history of that. Did you write the initial treatment or script that then evolved? Wonder Woman came directly out of Pan. So if not for Pan, I would not have written Wonder Woman. And up until Welcome to Derry, if anyone asked me what is the thing you're proudest to have been a part of in your career, it would have been Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman stemmed from, I was at Warner Brothers Making Pan. They had an executive there, a lovely guy named John Berg, who was in charge of the DC Universe for a time.

35:04They were working on Batman v Superman. And I asked to meet John because I am a DC, you know, fanatic. And I really wanted to make a Wonder Woman movie. Wonder Woman is maybe my favorite superhero. I grew up reading, as I said, my dad's comic books, many Wonder Woman editions among them, especially the late 80s George Perez run. And those are some of the more formative comics I read when I was growing up. And I said, hey, could I could I meet with you guys about Wonder Woman? I don't think they realized what a disaster pan was going to be yet. So I had a moment and and I sat down and said, how do I get involved?

35:39How do I how do I be part of this? And so that that started the Wonder Woman journey. I wrote a bunch of drafts on that and then it was a pretty unique process because they knew that they had to have the film out by a certain window and so they ultimately had multiple what they would call bake-off where we had multiple writers writing on the script at any given time and so it was totally unique I've never done anything like it before I've never done anything like it since where I'd be writing a script at the same time another writer was writing a script that writer would go away then someone else would come in I think at its peak, there were probably four drafts being written simultaneously and being handed in in pieces.

36:22Here's the first act. And it was a little like the NBA playoffs. First act delivered. All right. Someone goes away. Now there's three. And now there's two. And so it was a totally unique but thrilling process because I was working in a really intense way on a character that meant so much to me. And in a universe that I really loved. in with collaborators who were just terrific. You know, Zack Snyder was so involved, such a great guy. Multiple directors who I thought were, you know, Michelle McLaren was initially involved and I had really happy memories of working with her on it. She stepped away.

36:56Patty Jenkins stepped in. She obviously, you know, delivered such a spectacular film. And so, yeah, it was it was the most complicated writing process I've ever been a part of, but also maybe the most rewarding in Tildare because it was a movie that I just was so proud to be a part of. And what Patty built, Alan Heinberg, who wrote the screenplay, and Zach, who co-wrote the story with me and Alan, it was just a talented, extraordinary group of collaborators. And it was, again, a career-altering thing because now I had been a part of, in this capacity, you know, a success, which was really needed after the panic.

37:35So two part question on Wonder Woman before we close that chapter. Proudest contribution, whether it's a scene or aspect of the story that made it to the finished product. And is there a scene that you loved in a version that you wrote that didn't make it that you still love? Oh, that's a really good question. I think that I think the thing I am the proudest of in terms of my contributions to Wonder Woman probably fall into two categories one is thematic and the other is structural I think the basic structure of that first act which is such an ode to and a love letter not just to the original Wonder Woman mythology but it's Little Mermaid you know it has that sort of fairytale quality.

38:25I'm really proud of the work I did on that aspect in particular and setting up that journey. And I would also say on a thematic level, trying to do something that was about a character who is fundamentally good, who has a fundamental innocence about the way they look at the world, that I think we imbued and that I was able to imbue from an early stage of the process and that Alan and Patty and everyone were able to carry forward throughout the rest of development. And I'm really proud of those aspects. In terms of a moment or a scene that didn't make the cut, I think there are two things. We had, well, there's a few.

39:05We had an initial draft that took place in the Crimean War. And there was a great encounter between Diana and Florence Nightingale right before Diana participated in the Charge of the Light Brigade. That was a pretty cool moment. there was also a version of that script that ended with a post-credit sequence that included Calabac a great deep cut DC canon character uh which I which I always really liked I think the thing that I I I most wish we'd done I just there wasn't time to do it but the thing I most wish we'd done in the film is in that third act when the final battle is going on between Diana and Ares and obviously the fate of World War I hangs in the balance.

39:48There was a version of the third act I had written. I was trying to find a way to involve regular human women in the success and not just Diana, who is, of course, a Themysciran and has powers. And there was a version where because the war has restarted, it was a draft where both the high commands were sort of in trains, which was based on the real history of it. And they're both saying to their respective commands back home, the war's back on. There's fighting, there's explosions, like the armistice is off. And the male generals are telling their assistants, Etta Candy on one side of it, and then their other telegram operators on the other side who are all female, telegram back the war's back on.

40:34And Etta Candy cooperated with the German women to both sabotage the telegram systems, knowing that Diana just needed 10 more minutes, 12 more minutes to defeat Ares, and then the war, the armistice could hold. And so there was a great extra scene where you saw the way Diana inspired these women to help sort of save the day in that moment that I really, I really loved that beat. There was no time to shoot it. It just didn't ultimately practically work in the final context of the movie. But that was, that was a pretty cool beat. I wish we could have preserved. All right. I do want to jump back to Welcome to Derry because the time is flying by and I want to give some love to how you wrapped up the season and it's an, it's an epic first season.

41:13I, do we know officially you're going to, you're going to make more, you're going to make another season. Are you, you're working on the second season? Hey, I, as someone who, you know, we're talking about wonder woman in DC, the level of secrecy in the world of it and Stephen King is no less dire. It's, you know, DC and then the CIA are the two most secretive places. I think in the country, I, um, I don't know what I'm allowed to say. I think, you know, We can read between the lines. I hope as we have this conversation, it's not yet Sunday when the finale will air. I am very curious to see people's reactions to the finale and hopeful that there is enough positive reception to it that justifies some continuation of the story.

41:53But I probably already said too much. Look, there are some big ideas in the season, big questions you're answering, big questions you're posing. And one, just like on a basic level, I think for managing audience expectations, that was probably, I imagine a big conversation was the use of Pennywise and how much to hold Pennywise back or not. Because I feel like at first there were people, I heard a little concern at the beginning was like, oh, wait, when are we going to get, when's Pennywise coming in? So like how much of a debate was that like? And clearly the folks that were patient, our patience was rewarded, but give me a sense of what that discussion was.

42:31Well, the first thing was just getting Bill to do it because we were bluffing. Like when we started writing this thing, we knew we couldn't do the show without Bill. But Bill hadn't said yes because there were no scripts to say yes to. I think Bill, you spoke to Bill. I think the first time Bill publicly talked about it was in an interview with you. And it did not seem like he was going to be involved. He was on the fence. He seemed it. Yeah. Was he playing hardball? Was he? No, no, he was not. He was being totally genuine. He'd done this role twice brilliantly. He delivered these iconic performances.

42:59And so the question was, what else do I have to say with this character? How do I come back and do something fresh or interesting? And our answer was, give us a few months. We're going to send you some trips. But we didn't have the drafts yet. So at the same time that we're cracking that and talking to Bill, we're also trying to make sure the network understands we're going to get him. But also, what if we don't? And the answer is we didn't have a backup plan. Had this gone sideways, we were in a whole world of trouble. but thankfully once Bill read the script and understood he wasn't just playing uh the it manifestation of Pennywise but he's actually going to play a second role he's playing Bob Gray the the very real human behind Pennywise the dancing clown in 1908 that I think is what spoke to him and and where he saw opportunity so yeah we we we knew that we wanted to build up to his his entry into the season there was never a conversation about him being uh present early in the season.

43:53It also felt very in keeping with the canon and the lore. You know, it obviously takes so many different manifestations. We've not really seen a ton of them in the movies. There's, there's a little bit of, of, you know, in non Pennywise manifestations, but it's limited. And so it felt like, well, if we're going to do this in a long form storytelling way, given that it's TV, let's really explore these other uniquely personalized, uh, horror manifestations and then build up to that reveal. So we, we knew he was coming in at the midpoint and it was a less is more approach and then and then more is more where you see an awful lot of him i think yeah from episode five on you see more of pennywise on a percentage basis i think than perhaps you even saw in the film so never never enough bill skarsgård drooling just randomly during a during a pennywise uh no and you know what's great he's even in the yes there's the bob gravedol which is a different thing for him literally it's a different character but even within the Pennywise it manifestation, it's a different set of challenges.

44:51He's encountering Dick Halloran. We've never seen Pennywise go up against another entity or person with special abilities. That's a brand new thing. We've never seen him up against grownups who seem very aware of his existence other than the losers. But to speak about, you know, the military who are after him and trying to weaponize him or whatever Shaw's plan ultimately is revealed to be. All that felt like fresh stuff for Bill to play with. And he dove in and I think turned in some pretty special work. Well, okay. Spoiler alert for those that haven't seen the finale. By the time this is out, you've had your opportunity.

45:25So, you know, get to it and watch the finale. Now here's the question. The coda, when did that arrive? When was that? Late. That was very late. It was us sitting around trying to understand how do we connect this in one additional way to the film? And how do we find another beat that changes and elevates your understanding of the movies? That's, I think, one of my favorite things about a good prequel is that you can go back and watch the original and have an understanding of aspects of it that you did not before. And so you think about the Beverly and Mrs. Kirsch beat in Chapter 2. When you watch that originally, why is it in the form of Mrs.

46:03Kirsch? Well, if you think about it, seemingly it's just because Beverly has this traumatic relationship with her dad and he's preying on that connection. connection in fact beverly met the real mrs kirsch at least once on the worst day of her life the day her mother committed suicide and so you you watch that scene again you go oh it knows that it is actually scratching at this deep buried trauma connecting the dots between this this manifestation in the most horrible traumatic day of beverly's life and that's that's what i think is one of the special things about the show or one of the things we hope certainly would be special is that you can go back and watch the movies and see something you didn't notice before you go back and rewatch chapter one think about the opening scene with leroy and and mike at the with you know the sheep in the in the slaughter pen when when leroy says to him you're either in there essentially in the cage or you're out here you better decide before someone decides for you he's talking about the cage he's talking about the cage of dairy when he he's interrupted by mike but he says you know when your father was your age and he's quickly interrupted, what was he about to tell him?

47:10I think he was about to tell him more about the story of It, Welcome to Derry, season one. So that's there. It was an effort to find one more of those beats. Right. And that's where that moment came from. Any other permutations beyond using Sophia, any other actors that were in play or any other characters that you were tempted to use towards the end of the season? No, we, I mean, we, we, we used the ones we wanted to, and we used obviously Finn, although Finn is not, you know, did not act in this season. You see the missing children's poster of Richie Tozier in the finale episode, which of course is another, I think, important beat because we've resolved so much mystery.

47:47And part of the fun of a Stephen King story is the mystery that it's unresolved, that you get to go home and chew on it and think and talk to your friends and tweet and all the things. We wanted to make sure there were additional mysteries that crept in, even as we answered some other ones. And so there is this additional mystery, given that Pennywise has shown Marge a missing kids poster of Richie Tozer from the future. What does that mean? He says he gets tomorrow and yesterday and past and present all confused. Clearly, Pennywise, it has a unusual relationship with time. And where that goes and what that means, I can't say much beyond it is part and parcel of the reason that the story is told backwards, anthologically, from season to season.

48:31But I think that's, to me, that's one of my favorite mysteries that's set up in that final episode. Okay. A couple of random things outside of Welcome to Derry, I want to hit before I let you go. You spent a lot of time with Andy, Andy Muschietti. How much Brave and the Bold talk have you had with Andy? Are you the secret writer of the Brave and the Bold movie, Jason? Absolutely not. No, my feature time right now is pretty much 100 % dominated by writing a My Hero Academia movie for Legendary and Netflix. So I'm very much, my brain when it's not in Derry is on the UA campus with Deku and Bakugou and Uraraka and the rest.

49:09So no, I'm very much not the secret writer. We really didn't talk about it much. It's funny, there was so much to do on that set in terms of running the show with Brad that it didn't, it did not come up often. I'm, as a DC fan, I'm as excited as anyone to see what comes of it. I'm really excited to see Lobo finally make his appearance in the Supergirl trailer. Because Lobo, I'd written a Lobo script many years ago for DC, which of all the things I've written that didn't get made, I think that Lobo script is my favorite. Because it was, the tone of that Lobo was Guardians of the Galaxy if Quentin Tarantino had directed it.

49:44It was a hard R. Tell me more. Yeah, hard R you said? Hard R, psychotic movie, very violent. It made Deadpool look like a Disney family film, which is probably why it ultimately didn't get made. But that was that was one of my favorite projects. We didn't we didn't get to see across the finish line. But it was it was a fun one. Who was your logo in your head? You must have had a casting idea in your brain. Momoa. It was Momoa. Yeah. We could play that role but Momoa. It was always we'd never got to the stage we were talking to him. But it was it was always it was always in my brain Momoa. And Michael Bay was was going to direct it, which would have been equally insane.

50:21and it was just you know it was a weird time in the dc universe where it didn't quite fit into what they were doing but uh yeah i i loved i loved writing that script and there was a there was a green lantern involved there was there was all kinds of fun dc uh dc characters who popped up in the context of that but i i'm sure at some point they will i don't think they'll make my lobo but i'm sure that at some point you will see a lobo film come together because that's it's just one of the great characters. And yeah, there was a real fun dynamic between Lobo and Jack T. Chance. Jack T. Chance was a huge part of that story.

50:57So is there any, okay, Lobo may or may not come back around. Who knows? It's a long life, Jason. We never know. But there's a lot of Lobo stories to tell. And I'd used a lot of Legion also. It was definitely a Lobo movie, but it was also in some ways a first film in what could have been a legion series uh so it was yeah it was a pretty nutty pretty nutty movie and uh and and very sort of i mean i remember there was a moment early in the script where there's a a bad guy who who pleads for lobo's forgiveness by saying that he's he's got a mother to think about and says you know please what you know what what would become of my mother and he says, what would become of Martha?

51:40And Lobo goes, what did you say? And he goes, Martha. He goes, it's my mom's name. He goes, no way. He goes, your mom's Martha? My mom's Martha? He goes, yeah. And the bad guy's like really hopeful. And then Lobo just, boom, blows his brains out. He goes, what the fuck was that about? And then he's doing it. And so it was a very, it was just a fun, it was really a love letter to the comics I loved and even to the DC universe. I loved the Snyderverse. I was so lucky to be a part of it. And I just, it was fun to momentarily play with what that could be. Marvel guy at all. Who would you raise your hand to take a swing at in the Marvel universe?

52:14I mean, have you ever had a meeting with Feige and company or anything? I've met those guys over the years. I've never locked into a specific thing. But, you know, I live here in London. I'm an Anglophile. I love this city. I think Captain Britain is an interesting character to play with. I don't know that they'll ever pursue that. But I think that would be a fun one. Captain Britain is definitely, I think there's a cool mythology there. You've never really explored the sort of Arthurian legends and Excalibur stuff within the context of a Marvel movie or Marvel show. So, yeah, as a fan, I don't know that as a non-Brit, I'm the right person to take that story to the screen.

52:53But as a fan, I'd love to. And, you know, never so far. You're living out there. You've got entitlement now. I'm an honorary Brit, at least. There you go. There you go. Um, man, thanks so much for the time. I really appreciate it. And I'm happy that we got a chance to talk at this kind of like, this exciting run of this first season, which we're going to see more of this guys. We're going to see more of it. Welcome to Derry. I'm going to put some money on it. Um, congratulations. My lips are sealed, but I appreciate the kind words. And it's just, uh, it's so much fun to finally get to talk to you.

53:23This has been a total blast. No, thanks, man. Um, next time in person, uh, good to connect. I would love that. Thanks so much, Josh. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't sure to do this by Josh.

53:51The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At Blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50 ,000 five-star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you're DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure. Save up to 40 % when you buy two or more. Rules and restrictions apply.