Jeremy Allen White

26:47I really loved the English series. I had so much fun, especially in the first four, five years. I had like a blast on that show. That must have been your first experience also in like encountering some degree of celebrity and people almost, I don't know, did people confuse you with the character? Did you find people were encountering you as Lip as much as Jeremy out in the wild? And was that a wake-up call in some ways? Yeah, but I think I wanted them to when I was young. In a way, I think I was projecting all the time a version of myself that was probably a bit further away from me than I knew at the time.

27:29But now in retrospect, I'm able to go, oh, that really wasn't me. I was just trying to do this thing for a long time. What were you projecting, you think? I don't know. I think at the time, I was so into like, I was really into Sean Penn and Pacino and De Niro and all these guys and from what I'd gathered, I mean I know that they care so much about their art, but all the rest of it they seemed so kind of like beyond it and I think I tried to get a little bit of that like devil may care sort of deal, but I did care, like so much. The true acting performance was burying that all the way down. Exactly, exactly.

28:12And being too cool for school a little bit. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, there was something like that going on in my early 20s and late teens for sure. That's a, yeah, I think for someone in their 20s that's like a little artistic insecurity of kind of overcompensation. Totally. It totally clocks. I forgive myself. Yes, we forgive you too. Thank you. So you've talked about this before, I mean the transition out of Shameless, which is this giant period of your life and literally a transition from like a young man to a man. For sure, yeah. this pivot point coming out of that and into the bear is kind of like an existential artistic human crisis you kind of had to like get through a little bit I don't know if I'm overstating it no not at all yeah I mean I did ADR for the last episode of shameless at Warner Brothers I was driving home on Mulholland and I had to pull over because I was having a panic attack I was so that show was so consistent for me I knew where I was going to be every year I had a community and a family and people I loved and that loved me and understood me.

29:08And now I was looking into a lot of unknown. I had, you know, my oldest daughter, Ezzie, was two. My youngest had just been born. And I was like, I got to keep this going, you know. And, yeah, it was a difficult time. But I went kind of directly into, yeah, the bear. So Chris Doerr, the creator of The Bear, he worked to a degree on The Rental, right? Nice film that Dave Franco directed, shout out to Dave, good guy. Talk to me a little bit about reading Carmi the first time, talking to Chris. Yeah. Sounds like it took some convincing only in that you didn't want to, oh, another Chicago show, another series, but was - I think the fact that it was in Chicago was just such a - Like really?

29:55We're doing this again? I was like, damn. Of all the cities, it's a great city, but really. No, it's an amazing city, but yeah, so the Chris thing was funny. I think I've told this story before, maybe it's just been with people in passing, but Chris was like a co-producer on The Rental. He's good friends with Dave and was helping out, and we shot that maybe between seasons eight and nine of Shameless, and I didn't really know Chris. We didn't talk a whole lot to each other, but I saw him around, and he comes up to me on one of my last weeks, maybe last week of shooting, and he goes, hey buddy, what do you think you're going to be doing in like two years?

30:35And I was like, oh, I don't know. I think I got a couple more years of the show I'm doing. I think probably we're going to go a little bit longer. He goes, okay, you know what? I'm going to give you a call in two years. And I'm like, okay, guy. Like, yeah. This is the classic Hollywood conversation. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to write something for you. Yeah, exactly. And to his credit, two years on the dot. He called me. We had a Zoom. We talked about the show, and I told him, you know, I'm finishing up the 11th season of Shameless, and I don't know if I want to jump right back into a TV show, but please send me the script, and I want to read it.

31:12And it was so good, and it was so rich and textured, and Chris is so smart, and the way he spoke about it was so elegant and beautiful. But yeah, I think I was just bumping up against, you know, There was some family dynamics and traumas. And then also we're in the city of Chicago and I just spent so much time there. And so that was my only kind of hesitance during that time. But then I think I was just like, who am I to pass on something that's so rich and I need to see where this goes, I guess. Do you remember the early days on set with like, I mean, Eben had been around, but he wasn't like a star in any real way, but like, you know, Actors loved him.

31:55Totally. You know, Io, of course, people didn't really know at the time. I mean, do you remember those early days? Do you idealize kind of like, oh, we immediately were tapping into something. There was something those first weeks that felt special. Yeah, it was really remarkable. I mean, it was also this funny thing where, I mean, the script was great for the pilot, but I remember we had one table read for our show, and it was for the pilot, and it did not read well. And it took like seven minutes because everybody was like, speaking so quickly and the transitions weren't clear. And so I think everybody was a little bit like, uh-oh, what do we have?

32:33But it's a credit to Chris and his direction and also the feeling that he kind of gave us all, that feeling of excitement. And yeah, I think everybody's chemistry and everybody's showing up and caring so much immediately. I mean, you're right. Like, you know, Liza had done theater for a very long time. She hadn't really had her moment yet. Lionel hadn't done very much. Io hadn't done very much. Eben had done some stuff, and I had Shameless and some stuff, but nobody was, like, you know, going to anchor this thing as, like, oh, that's the star, you know what I mean? But I think that made everybody show up and just be so, you know, we just took advantage and we cared so much, you know.

33:18Do you get as much as an actor out of, I mean, the show has this juxtaposition of these frenetic, insane sequences, and then these quiet moments, just you, I, like, smoking can be as pointed as anything. Do you get something out of both? It seems like the fans do. They love both ends of it. Yeah, I mean, that's the rhythm of a kitchen, and I think that rung very true. And I think really, you know, early on, I spotted the parallels of making a film and getting that food out, you know. So I was familiar with that sort of like that sense of urgency, that anxiety. You know, we're rushing to get that magic hour shot.

34:01You're looking at the clock all the time. And then there's those you're kind of like holding your breath all the time. And then there's the exhale. and so much of the bear for me is like it's in breath. It's like, you know, that tightness and then that release, you know. Do you feel comfortable? You're essentially like our avatar of anxiety, I feel like, thanks to Carmi and even some of your other roles. It feels like we project, like, I think that's a lot of the connection that people feel in these times for the show and that character in particular. Well, it's common, isn't it, these days? To have those feelings, I guess, you know?

34:38Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Do you look at yourself in the mirror like, I have resting sad face. I have resting, like, people can see into me, like, something. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if I hide stuff very well. I guess maybe that's something, like, I feel... Well, that's a gift as an actor that you can do a lot without much sometimes. Yeah. Like, I feel like it's easy to, like, I can get busted very easily sometimes, you know? Right. Like, if I'm feeling something, yeah, it's hard for me to hide it, I guess. So I was, when I ran into Chris the other day, he was talking about how, like, shocking, he's still shocked about how the show has resonated and, like, the fans.

35:13I mean, it must have redefined, like, what success was. Again, like, Shameless is, by most standards, a huge successful show. Yeah, but we did it for so long. Yeah, totally. But this is a whole different level of cultural, you know. Yes, the significance, I think, culturally was, yeah, remarkable. And did you feel that relatively early on, like, out in the world at Starbucks? Like, did things change? Yeah, out of the gate, you know, even in those first couple weeks, I was in New York at the time. And I felt, yeah, I felt it immediately going out. I mean, Shameless was, it was such a big show, obviously.

35:47We were able to do it for so long. But I felt like it was like, I don't know, if I was walking around like Williamsburg or something, I might not get recognized that much. Or if I was walking around downtown Manhattan, I wouldn't get recognized that much. or even in LA sometimes, you know. And then when The Bear happened, even in those first couple weeks, I was like, oh, this is, like, people are following me around and people are really interested. And people were discovering me for the first time, which was cool, because before that, it was just shameless. And I think there was, like, a lot of people who didn't know what that show was that found this show, you know.

36:27I assume you're like most human beings in that you eat probably two to three times a day. So every opportunity, I feel like, is an opportunity for someone to make some joke if you're out in public eating. It's like, yes, chef, let me show you the kitchen. Let me send you over some food. It must be such a constant because of the nature of what people connect to on that show. As long as I can get a reservation last minute and I get some free food, they can joke around as much as they like. The rest can come. Yeah, exactly. It's okay with me. Then there are the other ancillary interesting things associated with celebrity.

37:00How many friends have sent you photos of themselves posing in front of Calvin Klein billboards over the last couple years? Yeah, for sure. That was a big one. I mean, I grew up in New York. That billboard, I've seen all the iterations, all the different models, celebrity and otherwise. It's an iconic street. It's an iconic billboard. Yeah, it was insane. it felt like to have that in my city was major. But it is again, to my point of like, you've been doing this a minute. And to all of a sudden be regarded in this different way is, must be a bit of a mind fuck in some great ways and also some complicated ways.

37:46Like what have been kind of like your ways of preserving yourself mentally, emotionally, with what is a very unusual circumstance for a human being to be like, you know, internet boyfriend material or whatever the fuck we call this now. Yeah, I mean, there's two things I think. I'm very lucky. I started acting when I was 14. So while to many it might seem that I got shot out of a cannon, that's not the case. It's been a very gradual build. And also, there's this big timepiece on Bruce Springsteen that came out a couple weeks ago. And John Landau said this thing, talking about show business, and he said, you know, show business can be such a fun life.

38:28It can be so rewarding, but it has to be a part of a much bigger life. It can't be a substitution. Yes. And I think, you know, I've reached some kind of other level after I've had two kids. Yes. After my life has gotten very big and my concerns have changed and what matters to me really has changed. And so I feel very lucky in a lot of ways that, you know, my life feels a lot bigger than this. And I have to imagine those younger actors, performers, artists, whatever, who hit it really big at 16, 17, 18, 19. I have to imagine it. It's got to be very confusing and difficult. And I would imagine also, like, yeah, you've been through a lot, you know, personally and professionally.

39:12Like, you probably couldn't have done Springsteen five years ago. like before the bear, before what you kind of like, well from an actor perspective and a celebrity perspective, that has given you such a shift in perspective, I would imagine. Yeah, but that was, I mean, that was another reason this job was, I mean, again, Springsteen was hard to say, it was hard to finally commit to, because I knew what it was gonna take, I knew how demanding it was gonna be, not just in the preparation, but kind of like staying close to him and somewhat close to his sort of like feeling and headspace during that time that we're portraying in the film.

39:49And I was, there was really just a, you know, you know, that thing of I'm going to miss my kids and I'm going to miss home and it's going to be hard and I'm not going to have a lot of time to myself. And I knew that. I knew it was going to take a lot and it was just about that choice. Like, you know, can I forfeit these couple months and really commit myself, you know?

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42:39So I do want to mention a couple of things. We've talked about working with Austin. This on paper is right up my alley. Oh it's really cool. I haven't seen much of it yet but it's a really cool movie. So you know reference points are like you know it's two characters. What is it? One a cop, one a... Yep, cop and killer. Cop and killer. Yep, yep. You're talking heat on the set. You're talking Michael Mann. We're talking Melville. We're talking Suzuki. We're talking, yeah, like a real... So who's the good guy, who's the bad guy? Well, I don't know. You guys have to decide for yourselves. But I play...

43:12In practical terms, who's actually... I play the cop and Austin plays the killer in the film. Amazing, amazing. You're going to be appearing, in a way, in the new Star Wars film. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So were you a Star Wars kid? Like, how did, like... Yeah, I mean, yeah, I watched all the films and stuff. Yeah, absolutely, yes. But I'm not the most knowledgeable, you know... I'm not going to put you to the test. Yeah, okay, okay. That will come on that junket. Yeah, I know, I know. I'll get ready. Yeah, yeah. So when they come to you, I don't know if Favreau reaches out and says, hey, do you want to be Jabba the Hutt's son?

43:43Like, is that literally the kind of the text email phone call? It was pretty chill the way it happened. I mean, I met Jon at a party. And I've loved Jon Favreau for so long. I mean, Swingers was huge. Maid was huge. Chef is so great. Elf. I mean, he's really a legend. But Swingers and Made, particularly in my youth, I was like, oh wow. And he was like, do you wanna do something on this movie? Have you ever seen The Mandalorian? I was like, oh yeah, it's a great show and you do such a great job. And yeah, I like Star Wars, like yeah, let's talk about it. And he made it seem very chill, you know?

44:21And he was like, you know, you're gonna play Jadalod's son, you'll come in. It's just voice stuff, you know, we're not gonna take any scans, you're not gonna do any of that stuff. And we'll just come in for half a day and read some stuff. and I was like, yeah, absolutely. But they hadn't shot any of the movie yet, really. So I'm just kind of like reading some stuff, trying to put it together. I remember calling him the night before and being like, I was watching some of the movies before getting ready, but I was like, is there anything in particular you want me to watch? Or what do you want me to like, to really like learn?

44:50Is there something I should know? And he was like, no, just come on in and you know, do the thing. And I did. And then a year passed and they'd shot the movie. and he was like, we've got some more stuff for you to do. And I think I realized that they really fleshed that character out a little bit and I might be in more of that movie than I had realized originally. But I assume like the voice is, I mean, Jabba has a very specific way of speaking. So are you doing like, you're like, oh, oh, oh, like that kind of like, like that whole thing? No, I was like, what kind of vocal work do you want me to do?

45:23Like, do you want me to bring it? And I was doing some stuff, but he was also like, we're gonna mess with it. I haven't heard the finished product. I haven't seen the film, so it's hard for me to talk about it too much. And then Social Reckoning. I know you haven't shot yet. You're going to be re-teaming with Jeremy. Yeah. Mikey Madison. Yes. Sorkin. Yes. This is a good group to be with. It's a good group. It's a good group. That's what I look for, good groups. And this is the only thing an actor can do is surround yourself with the best, and they're going to bring out the best in you. Totally.

45:53So Sorkin's script reads like fire, I would imagine. Incredible. It's remarkable how sort of, how lengthy and sort of, like it should be confusing, his writing sometimes, especially when he's writing about worlds that you might not be incredibly familiar with. There's a lot of information in there. There's a lot of information. But the writing is so good that even an idiot like myself can kind of pick up on what's going on. There's not a lot of guesswork as like, well, what's going on with this character and what's happening? Everything's very clear, everything's very quick, everything's very funny.

46:37I grew up watching The West Wing with my dad and that was like a John Wells connection and now a Sorkin connection. I love Sorkin and I hope Jeremy and I can do a movie together every October from now on. This is a good tradition to start. That's some random stuff for you. You're a tattoo guy, yes. Are they all connected to, are any of them connected to work? Or is it all like family? What's the criteria at this point? It's kind of all family, I'm trying to think. Like family and love and family, yeah. I thought about, I really thought a long time about getting something for Lip when it was ending.

47:20But then I'm like, I can't go down that road. Because I feel like if I start it, then what are we going to do? I mean, you can stop for everybody. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I might be done. Yeah. The first time someone sends you a meme or a photo of you and Gene Wilder, is that like, Jesus? Or like, oh, I see it. That's kind of funny. I see it for sure. And I have no, I mean, I love Gene Wilder. He's a legend. Of course. Yeah. Like, I take no issue. But I do think there was something going around. I think people were convinced that I was actually related to the man. which is not which is not the truth okay why are you denying it so much it sounds a little weird yeah so who are give me your your short list right now like actor filmmakers if i could will into existence a meeting anything like who are you just admiring as a film lover right now um i mean well zach crager i really really loved weapons um he's you know obviously only made a couple films, but he's great.

48:25Palo Sorrentino, I got to meet at Telluride, which was really exciting because I've kind of been talking about him for years. The Great Beauty is one of my all-time favorites. Andrea Arnold is one of my favorites. I love her so much, and I'm so interested in her process. Lars, one of our producers on Enemies, has worked with her before, and I just talked to him about American Honey and that process a whole lot. I talked like Barry about Bird. I feel like that wasn't a script. Like, I think it's right. It's pretty loose. Is that intrigued you? Have you ever worked in that way on a Broadway? No.

48:57And it sounds like she doesn't have, like, there's no schedule, really. You just kind of show up in the morning, and it's kind of, like, based around location, and it's all very, like, free form, and that sounds really exciting. Barry, I love. Barry, I love. He's the best. Yeah, yeah. You know, I love that guy. There's so many young guys. Like, it's so nice. I went to go see Harris' movie at Telluride, Urchin and I was sitting next to his manager and anyway, I mean, I just I love that movie so much and I'm such a fan of Harris' and it's just so nice I feel like this young group of actors are so I just love them and I want them to succeed and I want to do more stuff with them and I don't know if that was always how this went, I guess It strikes me from the outside looking in because I've talked to all of you guys You've all done the podcast, Harris and Paul Meskel.

49:47And it's like this really cool group that not only has such good film taste that is in it for the right reasons, but also seems to be rooting each other on. Totally. It's a good crop you're in. It feels nice. Yeah, it definitely feels nice. There's some cheerleaders, and everybody's each other's kind of cheerleader. Yeah, back in the day, like Schwarzenegger and Stallone were out-pumping each other for a movie. It's a different vibe. I'm trying to think, who's our... Yeah, I don't know. You did talk about at one point, I know like, you know, the Marvel stuff and the blockbuster stuff always comes up.

50:19You had a meeting for a Marvel-y kind of a thing. That was like, that was out of line. I was like, that was again, me sort of, you know, not being entirely invited to the party and being like, I don't even want to go anyway. But I did, yes, I had a meeting that I probably could have, I could have handled differently for sure. and I think I was just like, I don't, first of all, I don't really know, it's not like a bag on the genre as much as it is like, I don't know what I can give to it really or how I fit into it. And also I think there was a period where sort of like being in one of those films guaranteed like you can get any movie made and if you find a script on the street Yeah, and you take that around to people and you love it you can get it made and I just don't know if that's how it's working anymore It's not yeah Yeah, it's not so we're saying the playing field has changed so much in the last 510 years Totally that being said I've seen the fan cast of you as Wolverine.

51:24I think you'd be a really cool over. Oh, that's nice Yeah, I mean he's I mean, you know that performance is great. He's done it for so long. He's really excellent and that's nice. And that was like, I'm not a big superhero movie guy, but X-Men was the big, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was like. Yeah, X-Men, Spider-Man, early on. Those were the early ones, and so of course I loved all those movies, yeah. All right, we're gonna end with the happy sack and fuse profoundly random questions for you, Jeremy. Okay, cool. Are you a dog or a cat person? Dog. Do you have one currently? No, I grew up with dogs.

51:58Okay, you gotta fix that. What do you collect, if anything? Um, hmm. Besides battered hats. I was gonna say, I do have a lot of hats. I used to collect coins when I was young, but it's been a long time. But maybe I should get back into it. Maybe there's some real money there. We make some investments, you know? Yeah, I think, oh yeah, Bitcoin I hear is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Favorite video game of all time? Oh, um, probably Grand Theft Auto. Yeah. This is the Dakota Johnson Memorial question. She asked me this once. I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one being your butt?

52:34I didn't know Declare. That's so funny. It's a lot to process. I know. Butt, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's the correct answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the correct answer. Okay. What's the wallpaper on your phone? My daughter is Ezzie and Louie. Yes. The last actor you were mistaken for? I don't get mis... I think my face is so strange. It's very difficult for people to confuse me with other people. but I do all the time like I get people really excited to meet me from like shameless days and they'll be like yo Carl or yo Liam, Liam Gallagher is my favorite like you know and I'm just like that's not my yeah that's you're thinking of a different you're thinking of a different character um it's a wrap-up our therapy session you think you look strange your face is strange you're not happy with your face you're saying my face yeah I love my face I just think it's very distinct I don't get confused for people very often, I guess.

53:35There's only one Jeremy Owen White. There you go. Worst note a director has ever given you? Smile Moore. Yeah. Right. Yeah. In the spirit of happy second fuse, an actor who always makes you happy, you see them on screen, you're in a better mood. Ooh, ooh, ooh. Um, huh. Bill Murray. Nice. What's your go-to Bill Murray? to Mount Rushmore. Probably Lost in Translation, which isn't his, like, you know, necessarily. But I think to watch that movie, even in a sad, like, it's like, you feel like you're not alone, I guess I should say. It's another film about loneliness, like Springsteen's Over Me From Nowhere, Double Bill.

54:20Totally. Connecting it. Excellent Double Bill. And a movie that makes you sad? I mean, I saw Hamnet in Telluride. And I haven't been that devastated walking out of a theater. And I saw them after, and it was embarrassing, because I was like, I didn't have anything for them. And I wish I could have talked to them later about it. And I'd done something with Jessie before, and I know her, and I wanted to just be like, you're the greatest, because she is. But instead, I was just kind of like, you, you know, it was really bad. Hopefully I'll find her soon, be able to talk to her about it. They're probably going to get a lot of that.

55:04Just people just like seeing them and just bursting into tears. Totally, yeah. A food that makes you confused. You don't get it. I'm like, do I get myself into trouble here? It's not. What could this be? Like, these like, pizza's thin. This like Chicago thick. Like, it's too bready. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't need all that bread. You can't be doing all this. Where are you on Detroit style? the whole... Detroit's thin and rectangular, right? Like pub style. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. Can be like cracker thin. One of my favorite places in Chicago is Vito and Nick's. It's pub style, which I think is like Detroit.

55:39And it's almost like a cracker. And then you've got the cheese and the toppings and the sauce. And that's like, that's excellent. That's a vehicle to put stuff on. Absolutely. Absolutely. Pineapple on pizza? Not for me. I mean, do your thing, I guess, If you're weird. I'm not going to hang out with you, but sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not going to stop you. Am I going to finally, am I going to see you on the stage here at some point? Is that on the list? I would love to do that. I really would. Yeah. It's hard now with the young kids that are in school in LA. But yes, if I could find like a summer, like, you know, three month run or something like that, totally.

56:17I would love to. I would love to. I'm glad this happened. I'm glad this happened for this film. It's a really special one, man. Congratulations to you, to Scott, to everybody involved. Springsteen delivered me from nowhere. Keep collecting your Springsteen merch. Next time I see you, it's going to be wall to wall. No, honestly, man, congratulations on this, and thank you for the time today. I really appreciate you. Nice talking to you, man. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person.

56:51I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

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