John Cusack

30:30And you and Angelica, talk about an interesting dynamic. Was she intimidating? Is Angelica Houston like? Well, for some reason, we got along so great, and I think maybe it's the Irish heritage, and I don't know, there was just some, we had an instant sort of friendship. What, how did that, because like Frears has such an eclectic, interesting career. Like for him to direct that and then also for you to collaborate all those years later. Did you think of Frears all those years later? Well, yeah. For High Fidelity? I thought of it. Joe Roth, who ran Disney, who was a great, great friend to artists.

31:12Like he had his studio movies like we do Con Air and all those kind of movies. But then he had seven or eight slots out of his 30 movies he'd make a year. And he would just give it to filmmakers that he liked. So I got to make Gross Point Blank and High Fidelity. And Spike Lee got to make Summer of Sam. Wes Anderson got to make Rushmore. So he really didn't mess with you. He really supported the film. So it was just pure luck. So anyway, I'd worked with him on Gross Point Blank. And he said he had the rights to... the studio had high fidelity. So he said, do you want to write it? And I said, yeah.

31:48And I wrote it and he liked the script. So we were green lit and then we got to hire a director. And I thought, well, you know, it's a British story and Stephen can do anything. And I thought it was a lark. I said, hey, Stephen, check this out. Maybe that's something you want to do. And he wanted to do it. How did you get Springsteen? springsteen does not do i know that kind of thing well that was another like the weird life thing which was like i got to go you know to see springsteen shows and stuff and that somehow i still could never understand how any of the people that i was heroes with knew anything about my work or had seen my movies like honestly it seems odd to me that they knew anything about me because i was huge fans with him since i was you know a kid but i knew him and had gotten to hang out with him a little bit and and so you know i had his uh number so i called him up i said hey um do you want to play a version i said i got to ask you something and please apologize you know i i understand that this is going to be a weird ask but i got to try it and uh please forgive me for asking yeah he says go stop go ahead what what do you got and um i said do you want to play yourself talking to me in my head about and i pitched for him and he went i just paused and he went sounds good it was like i was like wait a minute but i think he knew the he knew about the book right and he also knew that it was about music and a love letter to music so if there was gonna be something he could do that would fit his groove.

33:29I mean, this was like, the whole book was a love letter to great music, so, and he was in the book, and he knew that he was in the book. Right. So it was just basically a Hail Mary that landed, but I was always grateful for him for doing it. Did you ever, out of curiosity, see the, I think it was an Amazon show, the Zoe Kravitz show? Was that a curiosity to see a different interpretation of it, or? No, I didn't because nobody asked me about it. So I sort of thought, okay, well, that's cool. But I mean, I know that I'd worked with, Lisa was in the movie and I also worked with her father, Lenny, but I just thought no one, if they didn't call about it, so I thought, I don't know, I didn't see it.

34:16I mean, I look at the career, especially in the 90s, like there's never been a 1997 like I've seen on someone else's career. You have Gross Point Blank, you have Con Air, and you have Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. That's quite a trio. That's like all over the map in the best possible way. That's pretty crazy. When you think about it. Gross Point Blank. I mean, does that remain kind of like for you artistically maybe the most creatively satisfying film experience of your career? Like is that the truest expression of what you were going for? Yeah, that's about the best comedy I can make.

34:49yeah I think you know what I mean like those are your sensibilities that's what I think so yeah you know probably and those kinds of things are sort of hard to make so and again that was just like I don't think it would have happened without a guy like Joe Roth running the studio because honestly because I'm getting other movies made is always so difficult getting the aesthetic and tone right and he was champion the movie so it was like a uh you know i was very lucky to again to know a guy like joe roth and to have him like my work and and you know those are few and far between they were few and far between now they're almost non-existent now i don't think they exist anymore when you i was going to talk about this later but let's talk about it now because like i don't want to make it like a sad state of affairs because i still there's still a lot of great film out there but when you look at the landscape now most of it comes from out of the country though i mean that's fair korean cinema is awesome right and like lots of stuff around the world is really cool but the americans are the films are flat you know have you seen that kind of like did you see it kind of happening in real time for you because like it does feel like the last decade 15 years 20 years i mean and i like superhero films don't get me wrong we're talking about a graphic novel that's comic, you know, there's the comic world.

36:10The good ones are great, but I don't know, is it depressing for you as someone that kind of came of age in a time where you allowed a little bit of artistic freedom? Well, like getting back to like, when I was doing Say Anything, right? So the producer of it was Polly Platt. Polly Platt was married and worked with Peter Bogdanovich. So she had made Paper Moon, Last Picture Show, like, I mean, great films, right? really cool seminal amazing films so she was like that was her mindset her mindset wasn't uh how are we gonna you know make the most money and who am I gonna connect with here it was like different values the cinematographer was lazlo kovacs right you know the guy was carrying you know during the revolution he was you know going across fields with canisters of film right you He's a real artist.

37:06And the first AD was Jerry Ziesmer, who was Francis Ford Coppola's first AD on Apocalypse Now, who was in the scene when he says, you know, terminate with extreme prejudice. That's Jerry. Amazing. And, you know, so there was, you know, there's that feel of, you know, you're here to try to make something cool and artistic. And I think over the years, it became more and more corporate. and the people who were running the studios, it used to be that the studios were just studios. And then people forget, but there was a time when Paramount and Warner Brothers weren't held by some huge international, right?

37:51Now the movie things are a tiny, tiny part of a media empire. And it's all about vertical integration strategies and all that. They're selling telephones. They're not selling movies. Yeah, so the environment, the corporate environment around it has to do with like kind of uniformity and surety. But movies should, you know, the one thing that movies lack is ambiguity, right? Like you can't feel conflicted ways about a character. No. I dare you, yeah. And I mean, look, if you're just thinking about making money, maybe. I still don't think it's the right move. Yeah. But they seem to think that way.

38:35So, you know, a good way to say it was, you ever heard anyone say it was like, Philadelphia was better when the mob ran it? Right. And that's a good kind of metaphor, because at least when the mob is, like, you knew who he had to pay off, right? The garbage got collected. Don't go into that neighborhood. Don't mess with that guy. Okay, and you know, make a deal, right? So, like, some of the students, it was like the Wild West, but some of the you could still make deals with people who ran studios who were just people right now it feels like a faceless boardroom yeah you're you know now you're like your scripts are every script is going to amazon to go into the ai machine and get you know now they have ai gives notes for studios do you see a place for yourself in like the studio system nowadays it's been a minute since you've done like a studio film and like i think a lot i speak for a lot fans were like, we love you and we want to see you in great projects.

39:31And I feel like you are not being rewarded for what you can do. And from your perspective, are you wanting for great material or what do you... Yeah. I mean, I just think it's just a different vibe. you know uh like when even harvey the that this harvey weinstein like he was you know kind of a gangstery guy and i didn't know or no one knew the extent of his criminality right but he was the guy who ran miramax and if you if he and his brother if like if they liked your stuff if you were good with he and his brother or if you could tolerate their notes or whatever it was yeah you you'd make your movie and you know some you know yeah but it was like you knew there was a there was somebody there was a person you could deal with yeah we just need a less horrible version of harvey that's actually calling the shots to or calling some shots so i mean i think uh and also like studio movies are now the independent like when i was when they made tape heads in um 19 i don't remember remember what it was that was pre-sundance right yeah and that was like those were really independent right there there was you know right but now the independent version is just a subdivision of universal and basically means you're gonna you get to do a really good project and but we still don't you know well we have to we're not gonna be less money for it we're gonna be like but you know which is cool because you get to do a good project but it's just yeah they're not independent it's an independent brand but it's still a universal or whatever movie and it still goes through those processes look you were able to work within the studio system quite a lot and have been then there's like a weird anomaly on paper I don't know Joe Roth, John Calley those are the good versions and then there's the outlaw Harvey Weinstein thing and the terrible those terrible revelations about him but what you do did know is that he you know if he got behind a film he could get it made and yeah you know where does something like like connor fit in like connor should not have worked i feel like in retrospect like it's like well that was that was that was joe and that was uh disney and um is that a bruckheimer i can't even remember that was right right right like did that feel like at the time something that was working like i mean you Look, it had an amazing company of actors.

42:06Like that was undeniable. You look to your left, you look to your right, you've got Buscemi, you've got Malkovich, you've got Nick. Like everybody's going for it. Right. Ving Rhames. Ving Rhames is amazing. Steve Buscemi. David Chappelle's in that. Right, right. Whose idea were the sandals for your gut? Of course it was. Right, thank you. My plan was, I had a very specific plan that your audience might not find interesting, and they've probably fallen asleep right now. No, no. Yes, they have. But I said, I will be the first non-biblical action star in the history of an action movie to wear sandals throughout a film.

42:50It's like post-Heston, non-biblical, there's one guy. I'm going to die on this hill. Yeah, well, I just thought it was really... It's a distinction. Because the film was ridiculous. Yeah. So I just thought, yeah, why don't it be ridiculous? And I thought, if I do an action movie in Birkenstocks, that'll be really hard and it'll be really weird. And that was my plan. Yeah. Does the movie work without the Birkenstocks? We'll never know. But it works with the Birkenstocks. We know that. Yes. So we thank you for your service. Thank you. Thank you. But it was fun. It was, I mean, look, no one's taking that movie seriously.

43:30and I think if you do take the movie seriously, it's a cartoon. A total cartoon, but it's, I mean, I just loved hanging out with John Malkovich and also it was Disney and Joe Roth was like, had given me everything I needed for Gross Point, Blank and High Fatality. I was like, you got it. This is a deal I'll make. It was probably a smart move. That would be like the funnest way you could do the putting on the tights, the Marvel stuff. Totally. You know, it was like, at the time, that was a fun thing to do. And I remembered it, you know, being just funny and absurd. Yeah. Speaking of the comic book world, I remember a long time ago, and I don't know if this was like fan casting at the time, for you and Watchmen.

44:22Do you remember that? Like there was talk of like... Yeah, but you know, there's some of those things are so like weird because there was this whole riff that I had turned down Walter White. Yeah. And I never, ever remembered that. I was like, did that happen? And I'm like blacked out. You went back into the email. You're like, no, no. I'm just saying like, you know, did I lose time or, you know? So for the record. No. And I met Vince Gillen in New York and I was like, hey, man, I love your show. It's awesome. I got a note. Everyone's saying you offered me that. Did you offer me that? He was like, no.

44:56I was like, thank you, Vince. so like i don't know if like but i'm even if people say oh do you would you regret doing that i was like how could you regret brian cranston playing that role like it's his right it was meant to be his right you know if uh like they say oh do you regret this or that you know i would have loved to have been in drugstore cowboy right but that's matt dylan's it's his like he was perfect him and gus van zandt were perfect it was you know so uh when a movie works like that you know no yeah i don't want to take that away from you know so similarly that that was this the watchman stuff was there was nothing no i never i i didn't get offered that there was also like a famous thing that was unearthed in the last few years of like um tarantino supposedly had you as the top choice to play the role that eventually eric stoltz played in pulp fiction that might i think i might have been i do i do remember meeting with him about that movie and you know he went to a we went to a denny's and he basically told me the whole story of the movie probably acted it out for you he did right yeah he did and and then he was telling me about his how cool his new TV and screening room were and his projectors and stuff.

46:19And he was kind of geeking out on that stuff. And so I thought it was a cool story, but I never got it offered or turned it down. Okay. He knows your number. He's got it somewhere in the phone. Yeah. Look, you did work with Malick, and not a lot of actors can say that. That's true. And that was a huge one at the time. We were all like, wait, Terrence Malick is making a movie again? and then he collected 20 of the greatest actors on the planet in this movie. And then he cut out six of them. Like from the first proper Andrew Brody. It's like, I thought he was the lead. I know. Unbelievable. I think Sean thought he was the lead too.

46:53Everybody probably thought they were the lead. I knew I wasn't the lead, but I knew that because of the way he was shooting it and the nature of the novel, that the only linear part of the story is Captain Gaff, me and Nick Nilley, go get that hill. We try to get the hill, can't get the hill. go get that hill we get the hill and then we right that was the only you want a semblance of something to hold on to everything else was like a river that could go anywhere you know it was it was just like a three-hour tone poem but so i knew that part would stay in but um yeah that was great working with him great working with nick nolte too who was another another um getting to work with your heroes you know the best voice in the business the best like when i was a teen you know I wasn't looking at fucking Tiger Beat I was looking at North Dallas 40 but I draw on the ground yeah like in you know there are too many great films let me mention a couple others before I let you go being John Malkovich let me go we can talk it we can keep talking being John Malkovich when you read that script Charlie Kaufman what do you make of it are you like who is this mad genius I mean are you all in do you have questions what did you make of it at first I actually have a I've told it before, but I can say it.

48:10When I went to one of these agencies, I was with an agent from Chicago for a long time, and then finally I went to William Morris at the time, a big agency, I said, you guys have to have a black box with your unproducible scripts, like the weirdest shit you've ever had, and I want to know what's in that black box. And they were like, well, there's this, and they're like, that's not weird enough. I said, I want to know the most unproducible, insane, like psychotic thing that you guys know about that you put in a box somewhere. Open the box. Right, open the box. And then one of the guys said, oh, I mean, well, there's being John Malkovich.

48:52I said, excuse me? So I read it and I said, okay, here's the deal. All you have to do is get me in the door first. with whoever finances it. I have to do this role. And if you get me in the door first, I'll stay with you. And if you don't, I got to move on. That's all you got to do. You don't even have to deliver. Just, I just want a shot at getting in there first. So I tracked it and I knew about it before it got financed. Did you relish, I mean, that's a pretty unlikable guy. Like when you get right down to it, like he's kind of like, I mean, the look, everything about it. And like, again, someone like you can play that because you have an inherent, like we're going to stick with you because you're John.

49:32Like we, We love you. But the accoutrements, I don't know, was it fun to kind of disappear into that kind of like... Yeah. It's an odd character for you. It's not something I've seen you do before or since, I feel. Yeah, I mean, it's...

49:50It's also about an inert relationship, people who are totally stuck, you know? And it was dark and funny. But again, it goes to ambiguity, which is like you can see character. It's a relatively new development that you have to equate. Likeability. Likeability, every moral action with whatever is considered acceptable now or not. Right. I mean, there's a good chance if Say Anything was made today, they'd be like, you can't do that. You're stalking her. You're stalking her. you know you're you're she gave you her emotional boundaries and you're you're you're putting a you know a boombox outside of her like i guarantee there's a phd paper on that somewhere so right right right but like you know and i'm but i mean uh or even in high fidelity one of the things that people like about the movie is he is an asshole yeah and we are all assholes and like you're allowed to be an asshole to fuck up and still be a decent person like the range of like people talk about range like can you do an english accent and can you play like you know this or that but like ranges do you have the capacity to be like a complete moron and somebody who's like an evolved sophisticated thoughtful intelligent person does the same person contain that yeah most people would say yes yeah right or most people like do you there must have been things you did in your 20s you were like i cannot believe i was that fucking dumb sure but doesn't make you a bad person right so it's like movies have to be able to admit that we're all human beings you know and you have to be able to laugh at the fool like the fool is us right it feels like those characters have gone to tv's better at that nowadays right i think that's correct that space has gone to TV where you can have characters there.

51:49And to your point, films, especially bigger films, they have to be safe. Safety is equated to boring characters. I mean, there's something in Momo where Momo writes, the loss of ambiguity is the highest value of art. And I do think that's true, which is, I love the French connection, right?

52:15Popeye Doyle uses the N-word. Totally, yeah. And it's shocking, right? Yeah. And he had a whole thing where he didn't want to do that with Billy Friedkin for a lot of the reasons I wouldn't want to do it because I don't want to condone that or all that stuff. But that isn't the point. The point is, is it true for that guy in that milieu in that time? Yeah. And can somebody be brought up in a place that that happens? and but you know is it true is it a great character yeah it's a compelling character yeah right so you don't have to you know agree with a hundred percent of every i don't know i just think i just think ambiguity is is uh to feel like uh pulled in two directions like you don't know how to feel like you're repulsed but you still like the guy like that's interesting yeah to me you know and i think that's the that's where the juicy stuff is that's the good stuff Well, that's the stuff that's lost these days, I think.

53:13One more I do want to bring up. In film, but you're right, in cable it is too, but I guess maybe there's some shows that do that. Love and Mercy, I want to give some love to, because that's a great performance, and it's a fascinating structured film where you're kind of essentially sharing Brian with great Paul Dano. Did you form a relationship with Brian Wilson when you were before, during, or after? I did. Paul was playing him in his Beatles phase where everything he did was public. And I played him during that phase where he, the great rock and roll burnout story, where he went away and was in the dark and no one knew what was happening.

54:00So in a way I was like, I asked Brian and Melinda, I said, can I, you know, get to know you and talk to you about this time in your life? And, you know, with all due respect, and they were so kind to like, let me hang out with them and talk to them and get to know them. and you know i talked to you know glory the woman who you know saved his life many times by like emptying these bottles of these you know so um yeah he was very um they were very gracious and to let me you know into their lives and so i hung out with them as much as i could before the movie and um but brian was uh like legitimately legitimately like followed by angels and shit like he was he was like this huge antenna big raw heart with legs you know like and also the the most open sensitive and like but a tough motherfucker at the same time like a real interesting paradox you know survivor a real survivor and um this is a true story you know because it seems unbelievable but it's i i have people who can document it which was we were doing the scene where and we're shooting at all the places where he's been at right so we're in the studios where the breakdown when he had that was the studio where he was making the music that he made his earlier music that still exists right right so brian used to wear like these um kind of hawaiian shirts and there was time you know when he had his hair kind of slicked back sure right and so during that scene i had you know a purplish kind of hawaiian shirt and i had my hair slicked back it was brian's look and paul and i i found later both used a smile sessions box set as like our entry point because that was the peak of paul's version of brian yeah the ultimate peak where you know paul mccartney was chewing the carrots on vegetables he heard that said oh my god we have to scrap everything and then he went and made sergeant peppers and you can hear sergeant peppers from smile and that is no dis on i mean it was just like you know i guess like jackson pollock breaking through with painting it was just yeah it was just it broke through you know but that was the first time anyone had brought orchestrations in you know like seven tubas and four violins but you have to think back then before computers like you had to hear all of that and book all of those musicians trust me can we get all these because it's in my brain can we now translate it and doing these parts and then you know you could you'd hear them on smile session say like uh third trumpet move your mic an inch back like one ear that's great so anyway i digress but so we're in the studios where he's doing all this stuff and we're doing the scene and that is probably the most painful part of his life when he couldn't let go of he wasn't ready to break free of this guy this terrible person that was abusing him but he was in love with melinda and but yet he couldn't get free right so it was really really dark terrible time and so i was you as i said paul and i use smile sessions so i was just like immersed in smile sessions i'm sort of sitting on the floor going how the do i do this i don't like i don't know how to do this like i don't how do i do this scene like how am i going to do him justice right or whatever you know it's just it just seemed like an impossible hill to climb you know yeah and um my sister malika tapped me on the shoulder because i was just sitting on the ground listen she went I was like what and he said Brian's here and I went Brian who and she went Wilson he had never come to the set he didn't talk to anybody from the movie he had like a loose loose relationship he came right before we shot that scene with his hair slicked back in a Hawaiian shirt everybody was just their draws were dropped so he just sort of came by and then like sprinkled magic dust on us talked for a while and then he left and i was just sort of like yeah roll the cameras something's about something happened something's gonna happen yeah i mean so he was like stuff like that was just like he didn't know this he didn't know the schedule he didn't like he just knew he's touched from another yeah point of existence yeah like it was complete shocked everybody that he he came in at that exact moment that day it was yeah it was like so anyway he was uh he was definitely touched until until you write the memoir of this conversation is gonna have to suffice because like i mean crossing paths with the likes of brian wilson yeah hunter and newman and like al like and we've barely touch the tip of the iceberg.

59:12So I appreciate you going down memory lane for this. Before we end... Tell me... So you got to read this crazy thing? I did. I did. Momo is the graphic novel and there's more to come, right? You have another... Yeah. I had such a good time with Ignacio. We're going to do... He's working... I have the story written and he's drawing it now. So is the hope... I mean, we were talking before, we even started on mike like it's it's a it's a it's an artistic expression for you and ignacio and if it becomes a film amazing but it's also like you feel something like i don't know like something clarifying purifying out of like having a true clear artistic expression not for the first time in a while but like you know as we've said the industry sucks basically in a number of reasons does this feel like i don't know to give you a little hope a little like juice going forward well it was it seemed like an you know as you're doing it's so natural because you're writing it like a film you know yeah first thing with the church in in oklahoma and someone's talking and then you you write the dialogue so it seemed like a very natural expression and then yeah i thought um what what you missed too is i think what i learned is you you're hardwired to like tell stories whether it's a quick song or this or that or you know even if we're doing this podcast here you're taking me through a story of the beginning when I started.

1:00:40So I think we want to tell stories. And I just didn't want to tell a story that takes five, six years to do and all that. This was just such an easy way to do it. So I wish I would have thought of it earlier. But yeah, it's fun to do. And it's a new medium. And it's fun to play around with it. And there's no algorithms or AI. Nothing about this feels like this was manufactured in AI. This is like, this is, this is, feels like your brain exploded all over the page. Perhaps, yes. Which is, which is great. Like, which is fantastic. Before I let you go, we end every happy seg infuse with some profoundly random questions, John.

1:01:18You ready? I am more than ready. Are you a dog or a cat person? Ooh, I would say ultimately dog, but I love them both. Okay, great. Do you collect anything? Yes. old books but not but specific ones what's the treasure what's the like well I like this guy Rudolf Steiner who was sort of like this figure that he's like you know I'm interested in these people that are like Brian Wilson or whatever people who can channel things you know where does that come from who are they they've always fascinated me and I think like Rudolf Steiner was this guy who he was like clairvoyant and he started the Waldorf schools and he started like, I think like Stanislavski method acting and he had this whole thing on music and art and he was an architect and a philosopher and he literally wrote down biodynamic farming.

1:02:16Like he just wrote all the things down to what organic food movement was. Like where did it come from? I don't know. So I'm interested in his stuff, his writing. So I collect old books of his from like the, 1900 to 1920, if you can get those old first editions. Because when you read those, it's a different thing than reading on a screen or whatever. Sure, sure. And you can feel how old the book is. I think those kind of old books excite me. Yeah. I don't know why. Do you have a favorite video game of all time?

1:02:53Let me think. You mean like PlayStation or the old? I think it could be like Ms. Pac-Man or it could be, you know, Grand Theft Auto 6, whatever you want. Well, I suck at all video games, I think, ultimately. I had a few good years as a 12-year-old with Galaxia. Is that the right one? And you're right. Yeah. I had a few good runs at that. But I can't really. Yeah, but I can't. We're going to roll with the console in and see if you still got it. Yeah, I mean, I don't think, you know, I wasn't good at Donkey Kong or any of those things. And I did play a, I wanted to play some video games because I realized that's what the movies were.

1:03:42So I was like, I might as well figure out what this is. It's a bigger industry than film now. It's by far. But also you can see the influence too. So a lot of the movies are, you know, they're the same moves that are in the video games. You talked to like Yermo del Toro. He's like, all the storytelling is happening in video games right now, basically. Yeah. So I thought it'd be silly not to check them out. So I checked some stories out and got through a couple ones. I got through one that was really, really hard. But then I thought, I was kind of mad at the video game because it made me spend that much time trying to get past things.

1:04:19But I did the Callisto Protocol, which was just a gruesome. It sounds painful. It was a cyberspace zombie horror show. But somehow I finished. Sounds like the worst exercise regimen ever, the Calypso Protocol. Yeah, it was gruesome. It was gory. To Cleta Johnson asked me this, don't blame me. I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

1:04:44Mouthful of bees? I mean, there's no right answer. I don't think there is. There isn't. What's the wallpaper on your phone? I don't know. Okay. That's an honest answer. Right. Like, I don't know. Okay. I mean, I suck it. I'm kind of like... It's like an analogy generally? Yeah, yeah. I'm kind of like a bit of a luddite. Yeah. Who's the last actor you were mistaken for?

1:05:12Does that ever happen?

1:05:17Well, yeah. I think sometimes... or sometimes they mistake me for being in a different film. Oh. There's the very famous video, The American Beauty Woman. Right, right, right, where she thought I was Kevin Spacey. She was, you were very sweet about it, for the record. She insisted you were in American Beauty, and you had to gently say no. I remember one guy, I was at some political event, and some congressman was like, hey, Ferris Bueller. I didn't know whether he had mistaken me or he was insulting me but it was just like kind of a New York thing Ferris Bueller I mean Matthew's great too no he's awesome but I don't know if he thought I was Ferris Bueller or he was just like you're one of those guys yeah it's better than Kevin Spacey we'll take Matthew Broderick over that what's the worst note a director has ever given you good question

1:06:18the worst note a director's ever given me i you know what i probably blocked it out yeah well that's probably for the best because i can't remember is there a type of direction that you just don't respond to like what's an ideal versus a an unhelpful direction you know uh it's kind of a maybe a pretentious answer but um as long as the overall aesthetic of the film is clear there's lots of ways to make movies right yeah you know like uh dave and crudenberg for example he's every he wants you to do every line like when he did maps of the stars he wants you to do every line line as written yeah and even with the emphasis you know is not was yep and but he has a very clear version to it because he like he makes things slower than naturalism so that it starts to feel like you're being lulled into some trance, right?

1:07:15It works. His films are hypnotic, yeah. Yeah, so, you know. There's a rhyme to the reason. There's a reason why he's doing that, right? And then you could work with Woody Allen, and Woody Allen literally would say, and there were some of the best scripts you've ever read. I mean, I know what's happened to him later, but. The work is undeniable. Working with him was, you know, he was certainly very assured, and he'd have the best written scripts you could read. and I was doing this great monologue and he came up to me and says, you know, just step on it. If you don't want to say these words, say your own, but like put some you knows and ends in there and just make it your own.

1:07:51And one of the great writers give you that. And I was like, no, but I said, it's really good. You're really good at this. Like I was just wanting to get what he wrote, but he just looked at me and went, trust me, it's not that good. And he walked away. But the point of it was he didn't want it to sound written. Yeah. He didn't want, he didn't, that wasn't his goal. He wanted it to sound like musically, like people are talking. And he also knew that when actors come up with stuff, all of a sudden, you know, there's a little energy, right? So that was his aesthetic, right? Yeah. And that worked.

1:08:25As long as there was a consistency, you say. Yeah. So, you know, what you don't want to do is get a direction from someone. Like you have to have a point of view to have a coherent thought. If you don't have any point of view, then your notes, if you don't have a point of view on the material, then you're probably going to just be talking shit. Diane Wiest doing Don't Speak, iconic forever. Yeah, that was improvised. Really? Yeah. Well, it's over Broadway. She won her an Oscar. Yeah. And then at the end, Chaz did it to me. Right. Right. Or like when, yeah, so there's a lot of room for that. I usually write where I'm hoping I'm going to be in it and thinking I'm going to be in it.

1:09:11But what I'll also do is, especially when you're writing comedies or something, I'll get it like 70 % to 80 % done, but I don't want to finish it because I want the actors to finish it. So if I'm working with Alan Arkin or my sister Joan or Dan Aykroyd, I know what they're going to do. They're going to come in and they're going to have these things that they want to do and they're going to look at the scene and they're going to take the good parts of the scene, but they're going to challenge it. They're going to make it better. Yeah, give them the bones. And then one of the other producers was like, what is he doing with the script?

1:09:43I said, you should be so lucky that Alan... You should be so lucky Alan Arkin wants to make the script better. Like, just watch and learn. Like, these guys are great. And so then also, like, and then the actors, when they sort of finish it, and then they can come up with the dialogue that is just as good as anything we've written, then they own it in a way that you can see on film. So there's all those types of things, but there's no one way to work, right? Like I worked with Sir Ben Kingsley, and he came on, and we were doing a political vaudeville thing with Mark Lanier at War Inc., and we had Dan, and he loved it and he wanted to do it, and he came to Bulgaria and he said, one thing, don't change the script.

1:10:33I want to memorize what you have and I want to do what's written. I was like, you got it. Of course, you got it. And then, you know, so he'd have these long things and he came in like Bulgaria, like got into the Bulgarian garbage truck. I was like, boom, boom, boom, boom, like an assassin, nailed it. You know, whereas other actors, they don't do well. unless they make it sort of improvisational, you know, it doesn't work, right? One size does not fit all you got. Yeah, or like I remember in Jennifer Tilly, who I think she won an Oscar or got nominated. She got nominated, yeah. Should have won.

1:11:12She was so funny. But her dialogue was written. And then at some point her and Woody said, look, just don't stop talking. And she just talked. She just went on and on. But none of that was written. that was just jennifer fucking going yeah so that know the tools that you've got and make it take advantage of them when you can yeah and it's different things for different you know it depends on the kind of movie it is or you know who the actors are on a fincher set and improv on yeah yeah no you know the right vibe all right last thing happy second fused actor who always makes you happy you see them on screen you're in a better mood first first one that comes to mind There were so many.

1:12:00Well, I love seeing Al just because I just love seeing Al. Yeah. Movie that makes you sad? Movie that guts you? Yeah. Puts you through the emotional ringer. Maybe there's a tear or two. Oh, okay. Devastating movie? Yeah. This will be good because it's not a normal one. But there is a movie, Sidney Lumet and Sean Connery had a very interesting time together where Sean was like a big movie star but wanted to do deeper work. And Sidney was an up-and-coming director who wanted to do great work. And they sort of met and did a couple movies together that are so dark and so devastating. they're they yeah you're just one of them is called The Hill I've heard of this film I've never seen it with Ozzie Davis yeah and Rory uh Kinnear the the Python-esque actor the the you know he was in Three Musketeers he was in he's Veruca Salt's dad like the great got it right and he's in it in a dramatic role and okay and Sean Connery's in it and it'll take you to some dark places is brutal I'm in you know brutal like in the paths of glory kind of way and then there was another one he made with him it's almost like a pinteresque thing and I can't remember the name of it but he plays a detective in Scotland who has to investigate like a child murder case sounds fun well it's you asked me like it's devastating I'm in for devastating we met Connery any day of the week I'll take two of them.

1:13:48They're, I mean, they're dark. There's our tip of the day. And a food that makes you confused. You don't get it. I get confused if I eat it or... Yeah. Why would people eat that? I don't want that around me. Anything with anchovies. Just too much, too strong, too... I don't understand the allure of really, really, really smelly canned fish. Like, I don't want to eat that. I don't even want to be around it. I don't want to look at it. Trigger him. Yeah. 100 % on the test. Thank you, sir. Congratulations, man. This has been such a treat. Honestly, as you can tell, I'm a huge fan of all your work, and we just hit the tip of the iceberg.

1:14:29But most importantly, hopefully we've spread the good word. We've got to support John Cusack and his crazy, amazing endeavors. Momo is the graphic novel. There's going to be more to this if you've ever wanted to see John's brain exploded onto some beautiful pages illustrated by Ignacio Noe. And there will be the next printings are going to have this QR code so that when you go and see music that comes on the radio or you see Hawaii Five-0 on a TV, you'll be able to press the QR code and hear it and see it. So, you know, there's tricks. I love it. You've always got tricks up your sleeve. Keep creating whatever the medium will follow you.

1:15:09John, it's been an absolute pleasure. I appreciate you. Pleasure's mine. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

1:15:32Hi, I'm Whitney. And I'm Katie. And we're the hosts of True Crime Campfire. We set out to make a true crime podcast we'd want to listen to. We get right to the story. We don't do a lot of extra talking, and when we do, it's usually to roast the short hairs off of some loser, murderer, or scammer. You'll laugh, but only at the people who deserve it. Like, which serial killer would you most like to shove into a locker? BTK and his awful poetry. Dude got caught because he didn't understand what a floppy disk was. We look for the stranger-than-fiction stories, like the case of Patty James, a killer catfish before the internet was even a thing.

1:16:07Or Howard Walmsley, a sentient wad of damp laundry who convinced his town he'd won the lottery, fleeced local businesses out of thousands, and then became a romance scammer. We've covered tons of cases you've never heard of. Cults, scammers, killers. So come find your next great binge. Listen to True Crime Campfire on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Friday.