Martin Sheen

27:41Martin Sheen:Very much so. Yeah. In fact, we devote a whole chapter of our podcast to Charlie Lawton's poetry. Yeah. And Al figures in that because Al had his poems published just kind of privately. And I, you know, had a copy of that that Charlie gave me because he wrote a poem called Emilio, which is one of my favorite poems. and I recited as well in the podcast. But yeah, Charlie had a profound effect and his wife, Penny Allen, who was a brilliant actress. They're both gone now, God rest them. But their daughter has been very helpful in us getting the rights to use his poetry. And yeah, Allen and I came up together.

28:26Yeah, we were, how shall I say, starving young artists?

28:34Martin Sheen:Yeah, we're about the same age and the same temperament. He's a New Yorker, of course, and I'm a Buckeye, you know, so we had different backgrounds, but we had the same kind of passion. I remember in the day, you know, we were all there was a kind of a clique. It was Charlie and Penny and Janet and I and Matt Clark and Johnny, Darren and a few others, a crowd of actors and artists. All of us were kind of equally paired. No one had a nickel between us. We were all, we delivered furniture together. We delivered newspapers together. We hung out together. We got drunk together. We were a very close group, like family.

29:24Martin Sheen:And I remember one time Janet had seen Al in a play that I had not seen. It's called Hello Out There. and she said do you realize that he is going to be a major star and and we were all kind of looking he said forgive me an hour we will know what i mean i mean with the greatest love we said you mean little owl because that's what we call little owl affectionately you know and she said you bet oh my god what did she see that we didn't we just saw this wonderful uh young man so so full and vibrant and he was very funny. He had a great sense of humor and was like a standup comic. But I adored him.

30:06Martin Sheen:I still do. He's one of my heroes. He tells a lot. If you'll indulge me, he tells a really lovely story in his memoir about you, about when he was struggling and you were doing all right in the theater. And he says that you kind of got him a gig as, I guess, an understudy or a background player in one of your plays. and he only learned later that you were paying him out of your own pocket simply to help Al out when he was not doing as well as you. Is that your question? Sorry, he found out about that. I don't remember that, but I shouldn't have let him know that. No, he did understudy me, and he was going through a very difficult period.

30:41Martin Sheen:He was homeless. He was literally sleeping in a friend's bathtub, literally. And I was off the streets by then and I yeah I was doing a play and and I I ran into him one day and Al had this great energy he was always upbeat you rarely ever in fact the only time you would ever see Al uh in any other uh dimension was when he was acting if he was acting and he was depressed yeah you know or he was angry or joyful whatever it was his spirit was so full uh but off stage uh he was he was very dear and sweet and very funny and endearing and uh you could go anywhere with him at any time you know one of the best times i ever had with him was we worked together as ushers in the uh cinema one and two up on upper third avenue i believe it was and uh we we had in those days you had to wear a tuxedo and you carried a flashlight.

31:49Martin Sheen:Yep. And when you would deliver people to their seats, you know, what number is that, sir? Follow me, please. Here we go. You know, and be quiet, please. And that sort of thing. We did that for, God, I can't remember. I can't. It was, I don't know, several years. I was living in Staten Island at the time. Remember, I used to come in and we would meet down in the, in the, in the ward room and get ready. And with all these stories. And during our time there, one of the big hits was playing. And it was the only theater in New York that had Tom Jones. And so a lot of celebrities were coming in. And so we got to march them down the aisle.

32:28Martin Sheen:You know, Albert Finney came in one day and we pretended we didn't know who he was. You know, oh, can we help you, sir? Yes, right.

32:39Martin Sheen:And other celebrities, I remember Walter Winchell came in one night. And I was given to take him to his seat, you know. So, I mean, it was just a very wonderful time. And we didn't think about housing or food or haircuts or mortals. You were in it for the love of the game. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it was always, if you weren't suffering, you weren't doing it right, you know. Right. And then I came, many years later, one of my favorite phrases is from two characters, really. Dostoevsky once said this most mysterious quote, my greatest fear is that I would not be worthy of my suffering. And that starts you to go inside a little bit.

33:34Martin Sheen:And then a century later, Viktor Frankl said it after he survived Auschwitz for three, three and a half years. And he said that we had to learn to be worthy of our suffering. And that's how they survived at Auschwitz, because they realized that they had to create community, that you couldn't do it on your own. You had to, you know, and I don't know if you've read his book. It's one of my favorite books, and it had a profound effect on me. It's called Man's Search for Meaning. And there were like three editions of it. And he added to it as he got older. He died. He was close to 100 years old. It wasn't that long ago he passed away.

34:14Martin Sheen:But that book had a profound effect on me. And he talked about how you do things and you don't tell anybody. You do them because you cannot not do them and be who you are or who you're meant to be. You're part of something bigger. and he talked about at Auschwitz they always knew when somebody was fading away often they would curl up in the bunk and the lads would come along and they'd pull his legs and his arms and they'd stand him up and lead him out in the work detail they were in the brick buildings the farm Auschwitz was two prisons actually the one prison where the workers lived and we lived, you know, survived.

35:04Martin Sheen:And then there was the second one, Birkenau, which was, you know, a mile or so away. And that's where the ovens were. But these people were kept, as long as they could stand up and work, they were worth something, you know. And that's where Frankel was. And that's where Elie Viesel was. And Frank was there for a while. That's amazing. You know, the profoundness of what humans can rise to in these kind of circumstances and taking care of each other. It goes back to what you were saying about what we're all what we all have to do, which is look out for each other. Yeah, we're here. We're here to walk each other home.

35:43Martin Sheen:If you're looking for, you know, a fundamental basic reason for living, start with that. Yeah, it's a good one. We are here to walk each other home.

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37:29Martin Sheen:The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders and armies scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time. And when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s.

38:10And man, it is so good to be back. Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow dark. every Thursday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on youtube.com slash the glass cannon with the podcast version dropping the next day.

38:23Martin Sheen:See what everybody's talking about and join us in the dark.

38:34The first film of yours I want to bring up is of course Terrence Malick's Badlands. Which, I mean, he wasn't Terrence Malick back then. People might forget. Yeah, this was his first feature, as I understand it. Did you, I mean, in retrospect, you know what a singular talent he was. At the time on set, was it obvious, like, this is as much a poet as a filmmaker?

38:57Martin Sheen:Oh, yeah. You know, you used the phrase, too, because my friend Matt Clark called him a screen poet when he saw Badlands. And that's the best description I've ever heard of Terrence Malick's talent. Yeah, he is a screen poet. and he sees through. And people, you know, I remember when we were doing Badlands, it was a very limited budget. And we had the summer of 1972 in the Hunter, Colorado. And as we were going on, the crew began to diminish because, you know, it was kind of base salary and it was going on for a while. And a lot of the crew didn't understand what he was doing because it was nothing, you know, that you've seen before.

39:45Martin Sheen:And you just had to have faith. I knew what he was up to. I adored him. I knew that, you know, I would, if you want to know how I came into his realm, it's kind of a funny story. Do you have time for this? Please. I'm here all day. All right. I got an invitation. One day I got a call to go to this hotel on Franklin Avenue in Hollywood to audition for a haberdashery for a pair of trousers to model a pair of trousers. And it would be a still photography. I was much younger and thinner at that time. and so I came to this hotel and I modeled the trousers for these people and they said thank you very much and and I left the hotel and I as I got out on the sidewalk I was walking down you know just the street and a lady at a window and from the hotel on the first floor is pounding on the window said you know telling me to come back in it was Diane Durfner she was a casting director uh for Terrence Malick I didn't know who Terrence Malick was I'd heard of Diane and Defner, so I knew she had a great reputation for being a casting director.

41:02Martin Sheen:So she called me back in, and she said, look, I'm casting this film, and the director is out of town, and I've mentioned you to him, but he says, you're too old, and you're just not right for the part, but I think you are, and I'd like to do a little audition here on tape. She had a little camera, you know, like we used to have in the old days, little black and white video camera, and would you do that now show it to him when he gets back i said sure why not so she gave me a couple of sides you know a couple of scenes i went out on the street and i walked up down as i'm reading him i thought this looks it just seemed very familiar and i was right i came back in and i said with this in any uh is is this related to charlie starkweather and the killer out in the well she says it is but he's not doing the real story but yeah it's sort of you you could say that it's kind of based on that story oh i said i remember that very uh well and so i did this little audition with just you know she's behind the camera and i'm reading the lines but it's just like we're doing here it's just this and you can't move the camera or yourself you got to stay there because you're only lit for that right and i met and i forgot all about it and weeks later i got a call from terence malick oh he says could you come in and uh and i'd like to meet with you And I said, okay, fine.

42:20Martin Sheen:He was living up in Hollywood Hills at the time. And he had a huge dog named Obibulink. And he's the dog that appears in the film that gets shot. Oh, no. That's the dog. He didn't get shot. No, no. But I was terrified of him. I'm terrified of all dogs that I don't know. And so I was reluctant to come in the house when I saw the dog. I mean, he was standing up. He was still here. But he was lovely. At any rate, Terrence was very shy and very lovely man. And I was struck by him. I thought, wow, I've never met a filmmaker like this before. I mean, he's really, you know, he's really different and really intelligent and sincere and very funny and disarming, you know.

43:12Martin Sheen:And a young guy. It was the first time I'd worked with a director that was younger than me. I was 32 at the time. At any rate, I would come back every couple of weeks through the spring of that year in 1972, and I would do auditions. And I met this little redhead girl from Texas. The script called for a little teenage girl from Texas who was red haired and she knew how to twirl a baton. And this was his basic was from Texas. Red hair, knew how to twirl a baton. And she happened to be a brilliant actress. and so she and I started doing uh scenes from the uh movie the script but I'd never read the full script yet and and finally um uh one day uh Terry called me I was doing a show at Paramount and he said uh could you come by um on your way home and pick up the script uh and I said okay fine so I was just okay fine didn't no big deal I went up to the house he gave me the script and he said I want you to do this part I said oh okay fine and I didn't realize what he'd said or what I was being offered until the next morning when I got up at about 4.35 in the morning and I was driving back to Paramount because I had some more work to do on this series a guest spot on this series and I remember I was listening to Bob Dylan's record that had the one of my favorites of his songs that no one knows but desolation row and and the sun was coming up i was going along pch and and i realized that i had just been offered the best role of my life and i didn't know if it would make any difference career-wise but i knew it would make a tremendous difference to me because I'd never had the opportunity to show what I knew I was capable of.

45:14Martin Sheen:And I had a little small orange car. I don't know. I think it was a Mazda. And I pulled off the side of the road. And I remember I just broke down in tears and started weeping with joy and relief that finally I was going to get a chance to do something that was relevant in my life and in cinema. And it was Terrence Malick. And I never had the slightest doubt working with him. I adored him. And he was so funny and disarming. I remember he would be directing a scene, you know, just normal. Oh, Martin, you know, it's kind of the way he talks. Oh, Martin, you go over here and say, see, you do this and you do that.

45:58Martin Sheen:and then he'd look at his hands and say oh yeah he had written notes on his hands he he didn't have any paper candy he'd always write notes on his hands on his arms everywhere and then he'd give you the note so when i want you to do this and maybe you could do that and martin you know okay now do just throw that away you know and they say it's just no one like amazing we became great friends and i'm sorry i'm such a windbag now but that was a um that was one of the most important moments in my life was meeting that man doing that film at that time and um we were very close friends and then um he had some trouble in his personal life he went through a divorce he moved overseas he was living in paris i didn't know it at the time and i was going here and there and uh And we got back together.

46:54Martin Sheen:I had a break from Apocalypse. And he actually was in a scene in Apocalypse that was cut very early on. and uh so uh i i was doing the film and he was having trouble um making uh days of heaven right it's another brilliant film and uh he wanted a certain actor couldn't get him and he had to you know he had to be satisfied with another actor who turned out to be just brilliant all of them here yeah yeah sure geer and um and so his big concern was would he be able to begin the film and uh and in and include the fire because you can only burn up a certain amount of uh acreage and he and he so he had to get permission for that and had to be controlled and uh he and he and so he was in a place called moose jaw in um in canada and uh and so he was getting ready to do it to do that he was off to that and i was off to the philippines and i didn't see him again for a couple of years i was in paris in 1981 doing a film and i just returned from India and I was going through a very kind of tumultuous time and I knew that I was approaching a very you know important level kind of a do or die I was on the verge of something I wasn't quite sure what but I knew I had to make a decision and I'm walking down the street.

48:38Martin Sheen:I was staying in a little hotel on the West Bank. Is that right? No, not in Paris. I can't remember. But anyway, we're all the best pastries are in the old. Okay.

48:59Martin Sheen:And I'm walking on the through Jacob, and I see this guy coming towards me, and he's looking at me, and he's saying, is that you, Martin? And I'm saying, is that you, Terry? Yeah, and we reacquainted and I spent practically every waking hour when I wasn't on the set with Terry. He taught me Paris on foot on the underground and the city became very important to me as he did. And he led me, he became, and I've said this and it embarrasses him, but I'll have to say it again because it's true. He became a spiritual director for me. And he knew that I was going through something that I couldn't quite articulate.

49:44Martin Sheen:But I knew that it had to do with my spirituality or my lack thereof. And so he nourished me. And he kept giving me books to read. And he took me to this place and that place. And we would listen to music and just walk the city. and then one day we were at the Shakespeare and Company bookstore by the Seine, very famous bookstore, and we went there a lot, and one particular day he was going along, and he pulls down a book, he says, here Martin, I think that this will speak to where you are now, I said, okay, fine, it was Doshayevsky's The Brothers Koromotsov, and I read it, it was a thousand pages, and I couldn't put it down on the set at night, when it took me a week or so to read it, to finish it.

50:31Martin Sheen:And it struck such a deep chord in me. It brought to the surface what I needed to do. And that was to rejoin my faith, my childhood faith, and the Catholicism. And I wanted to come back, but I didn't want to come back to piety or fear, anxiety of being condemned. but I wanted to come back to the social justice of the church of Pope John the 23rd of Mother Teresa and Dan Berrigan and peace activism and social justice work. And so that's what I did. I came back in Paris in 1981, May 1st. And essentially define your philosophy the last 45 years of your life. I didn't realize how much I missed the community.

51:22Martin Sheen:As I say, we need community. You know, it's the only way we can really function that we begin to know ourselves is in community. Can't do much on your own, you know. But in community, you can find yourself and become your true self. And yeah, that's what I tried to do. And so it meant the world to me. And I got Terry to thank for leading me back to through that door and accepting that beautiful grace. Because it is a great form of grace. And I cherish it. I can't think of perhaps a more different experience than the Terry Malick Badlands experience than Apocalypse Now, which is maybe the most storied production of any film.

52:02I mean, there are obviously Hearts of Darkness was made. Books have been written. We know we've we've heard a lot of stories about the making of it. We know what you went through, the heart attack and true breakdown. I mean, I mean, what's your relationship to seeing some of that footage? I mean, like the footage of you, that iconic scene in the beginning of the film, the mirror breaking the glass. I mean, you're going through it. You are breaking the mirror. You're we're seeing a man break down. I'm seeing you at your almost fall apart. What's it like for you to look back at that and actually see that?

52:37Martin Sheen:It's not very comforting. I remember. gosh I remember George Hickenlooper was the director of the documentary of Filmmaker's Apocalypse and he asked me for an interview, all the lads were interviewed but we had not seen the film yet and we had not seen the documentary that he was making, he just told us he would appreciate us doing an interview and so forth I didn't realize how powerful that documentary was, but it told a true story. And that particular day was my 36th birthday. And I was wildly out of control with alcohol and going through a very deep emotional catharsis. And I was out of control.

53:33Martin Sheen:And I remember drinking all day. and it was night when we got to that scene and the scene was no actual scene. There wasn't any dialogue for that. He'd rewritten the whole opening, you know, and so we were improvising a lot of that and, you know, and so Francis really wanted to call it a wrap and I said, well, let's keep going here. Something might happen. It sure is. Something happened. Yeah, I was always embarrassed by it, of course. I never saw it until it was in the film. I couldn't. He wanted me to see it when the Russians came back from Rome a few weeks later. And I said, no, no, I don't have any.

54:19Martin Sheen:He said, well, it may be in the film. I said, well, that's your choice. I can't. I couldn't bear to watch it. No, I never wanted to watch it. I knew I kind of had a pretty good idea of what I'd done. You know, I wasn't very proud of it. It's crazy to think you were just 36 then. And like, I mean, your life could have ended. I mean, it truly, you were on the brink. And to see all the life that was to come after, what a gift. I mean, yeah, just, I don't know. It's just mind boggling. But I'll tell you this. When I saw it, George Hickenlooper, God rest him, sent me a copy of that documentary before it was released, Hearts of Darkness.

55:01Martin Sheen:And he said, I want you to look at this and tell me if there's anything you want cut and I'll be glad to consider it. I said, OK. So I watched it with a friend who did not know me then, only knew me now and said, oh, my God, how are you going to live with this? And I said, that's who I was. That's not who I am. And so I had to let it go. But I remember when the film premiered in the summer of 1979 at Cannes, that scene was not in the film. Oh, really? It was not in the film that he played, and he won the Palme d 'Or, at least he and another film were tied for the Palme d 'Or. But no, that film was not in it.

55:43Martin Sheen:He put it back in when the film opened in the States, and I didn't know it. And I made sure that when the film opened, I wasn't available for publicity or anything. I was very intimidated by it, very shy about it. And so I kind of hid away. I got a job, and I made sure I was as far away as possible. I was on board the USS Nimitz doing a film called The Final Countdown. And for all intents and purposes, it was that for me. Oh, my gosh. So I was at sea for a little while. I was aboard the aircraft carrier while it was in port at Norfolk. for a couple of months and then we went out to sea to do some filming and they brought all the planes on board and that was an experience so we were at sea for a couple of weeks at any rate uh while i was away the film opened and and uh i was just as happy not to be around but then a few weeks later uh they asked me to do some publicity over in new york when i do it i said yeah okay uh remember the film when it opened it did not get very good reviews it got okay reviews, but there was such an anticipation.

56:54Martin Sheen:And people were sort of, oh, the ending this and that was that. But, you know, Vietnam veterans started seeing the film and saying, if you want to know what it was like, that's the closest film that's ever gotten it. And they really pumped up the film with their experiences. And so they're the ones that made it happen. And I remember going to see the film in New York. It was playing at that big theater where it opened. And it had been there, sold out for six or eight weeks. I don't remember. And I didn't want to see it alone, so I called my friend John Crane, a kid I grew up with. He was my best man.

57:33Martin Sheen:And we were in high school together. And, yeah, and so he took me to see it. And I remember sitting in the middle of the audience. Nobody knew, had recognized me. Why should they? and uh and when that scene came on i i was so i didn't expect it because i i knew it was not in the film in con so i thought it won't be in the film now and there it was i thought oh jesus you know and i sat through it but the scene that got me that i really broke down watching was the attack on the village with Bobby Duvall brilliant performance but that attack it still gets me the ride of the Valkyries and coming in so brilliantly filmed and enacted so real and devastating and yet it was played on some other level that you could only do in a movie and Francis did it and it was one of the great, still is considered one of the great war movies, if you will.

58:48Movies period, I would say.

58:50Martin Sheen:Yeah. I've had an equal number of young men and women tell me, some saying that that film inspired them to go into the military, and an equal number that said, that film kept me out of it. I can imagine. Totally. Go pick it. Whatever you want to see it. you know it's always been a treat also to see you collaborate with with your children whether being directed by Emilio or acting with Charlie I mean I think back you in Wall Street you and Charlie the stuff between you two and that it feels like it's you're acting but there's also another level you're you're you're going through something there's a bit of your own correct me if I'm wrong I don't know what you guys were going through at the time but there's you got that huh Yeah, there's something there and it comes through the film.

59:39Martin Sheen:Yeah, you know, Charlie was responsible for my doing the part. He pitched me in no uncertain terms to Oliver. And, of course, I said I'd be delighted and Oliver was gracious enough to give me the part. And I got to work with Charlie again. Yeah, it's a very special film. He's terrific in it. and it still holds up. Oh, yeah. It's still relevant. And they're all absolutely brilliant. And, yeah. And the scenes with Charlie are personal. As I always say, if art is not personal, it's impersonal. And who cares, you know? So, yeah. I was very proud of that. And I love playing any... A union leader. A union hero.

1:00:27Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that got me. A couple more I want to hit. I know we're taking up a lot of your time, but these stories are amazing. So if you'll indulge me a couple more. We haven't even talked West Wing, but is there, when you think of West Wing, it's that Aaron Sorkin, brilliant, brilliant dialogue. You have such meaty material there. Is there a speech, a line that speaks to you to this day from West Wing? I know that's a lot of material, but is there one in particular?

1:00:56Martin Sheen:My very first line, I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have false gods before me. It was my entrance. It's an entrance. They were in there arguing about what is the first commandment, and I made my entrance. And with that line, I mean, when I was offered that show, it was for tops maybe four or five episodes the first season. That was it. and one of the things I had to sign off on was that I would not play the president in anything else while the West Wing was on the air what are the chances so I read the pilot and I thought oh my god this is absolutely brilliant and I couldn't wait to get to it I only had one scene well you know the closing scene maybe two scenes but that was it and I loved doing it and I thought two things occurred to me one um when they see the pilot they're going to want to come back to me i i would hope to say who works in that that office because everybody knows what that office is who who's in charge in that office and that's what happened so they came back to me and gave me an opportunity to be part of the of the whole cast because you know originally it was only about the staff there was no first lady there was no first family.

1:02:24Martin Sheen:The president would appear every maybe fourth or fifth episode, you know, throughout the series. And so I was delighted. I had two requests. One was that he'd be Catholic. And the reason was because I wanted this president to make all his decisions, both public and private, political and non-political, but all of his actions would fall in a moral frame of reference. And the closest thing I could get to that was a practicing Catholic. And they said, absolutely, sure. And that he had to be a Democrat was a foregone conclusion. However, I've said, you know, as I think I mentioned to you, if he had been a Republican, but Aaron Sorkin wrote him, I would have said, of course.

1:03:06Martin Sheen:And the other thing, I wanted the Notre Dame degree, because since I was a boy, I love Notre Dame. And so many of my heroes came out of Notre Dame. And so I just wanted to celebrate that great institution. And they said, of course. That's using your leverage, your stature for good to get those two requests in there. And that's all I asked for. When I started, though, it's interesting, because when I started, I would negotiate sometimes with Aaron on some of the dialogue. Can you imagine how stupid I was? And I would say, well, you know, Aaron, hearing this thing, I don't really care. I would never say it like that.

1:03:40Aaron would say, well, you know,

1:03:42Martin Sheen:you should, you know, I see it that way. But if you don't, oh, OK, fine. And we would negotiate. and I would try to hewn him down until I got it my way. Then I discovered, and soon enough, thank God, that when I did it my way, it was okay. It was Martin. When I did it Aaron's way, it was Bartlett. And that's what I came to. And I stayed there. And I never argued with him again. Even though there were two incidents over the years. One, in the stage direction, he said, in the stage direction, he said, Bartlett pounds his head on the desk. I said no there's no way I could possibly do that and yet when I was playing the scene I couldn't wait to pound my head on the desk and the second one was when I saw MS in the script I thought it was my initials it was muscular dystrophy

1:04:36Martin Sheen:multiple sclerosis and so I didn't see that coming they were trying to tell me something I wasn't sure. I'm somewhat surprised that, I mean, there's been rumblings over the last few years. I mean, I'm sure Sorkin, they've tried to convince to write some kind of follow-up. On your end, has it come close? Have you heard something like, we're about to do something and it just didn't happen? No. No, Sorkin is like Dylan, you know. He never looks back. Right. He's always going forward. Fair enough. You know, that's his work in the past. Of course, it's his brilliant foundation that allows him to launch and to go into new and more personal places.

1:05:20Martin Sheen:But no, if he if he if he had thought about it, he never shared it with with me or any of the lads that I know of. No, because you can see reruns of it. They're relevant today, of course. They mean something different today to us, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. So Aaron is like this, he's one of those geniuses, you know, he's like Terrence Malick, you know, they come along so rare, and they make their presence known so profoundly. And we're not the same, they see through things. They don't reflect much, they absorb, and they see through and they take us with them. they don't wait around you know i remember when we were doing the first season of the west wing i thought how is this show going to survive we're so lucky to have this magnificent material but how how how long can we possibly stay on the air and sell insurance and cars and and uh uh you know products who knew you know a democratic catholic president very liberal guy with this administration Wow, you know, I think we could still be on the air if they, you know, if they wanted to go on.

1:06:38Martin Sheen:But it was Aaron Sorkin primarily. And there were some guys in that room, and specifically Lawrence O'Donnell, who brought all his experience from his work in the Senate. and so you know when anything about the senate or the house or anything in the white house it was coming from experience and we had so many people from the uh administration uh the bill clinton's administration that started us off you know and uh so many stories that went back to eisenhower uh that they got and found people to tell the stories and then they fused them into Bartlett, you know, and one of them is one of my favorites, which was when the kid from Brooklyn during the Depression wrote a letter to President Roosevelt.

1:07:26Martin Sheen:And it didn't arrive at the White House until Jimmy Carter was president. And that's that story you see that Charlie finds this letter and there's this young boy in Brooklyn. And so we bring the father into the Oval Office to meet him. It's a very moving scene. But that actually happened from the Roosevelt era to Jimmy Carter. And so there were stories like that throughout the seven seasons that were based on real stories, real people, and couched in West Wing dialogue and episodes. Can I bring up two more and then I'll let you go, sir? Yeah, for sure. They're two very different kind of things in different realms.

1:08:07But look, for comic book fans, you're Uncle Ben. That's very meaningful. That's not iconic. Did you realize how iconic Uncle Ben is to generations of young men and women?

1:08:19Martin Sheen:I didn't have a clue. I didn't have a clue. I don't see many of the big so-called tent films. I didn't have a clue. I'd never seen Spider-Man. I never saw Superman. Forgive me. I saw Star Wars about six or eight years ago. I just, you know, they just, I like drama and, you know, actors, you know, doing play. I think the fantasy thing never kind of made a dent in me, you know. But now, gosh, a couple of years ago, I was giving the commencement speech at a university here in Los Angeles. And the guy that introduced me very graciously talked about all the things you're talking about, the West Wing and Badlands and Apocalypse Now.

1:09:07Martin Sheen:And it wasn't until he got to Spider-Man that the audience laughed and applauded. Uncle Ben, they said, oh, my God. I thought, what kind of universe are we living in? It's the coin of the realm right now, and it means a lot of people. But, I mean, you know, that's, again, trading on the series of these moral authority figures. It's perfect for you. And you don't get the iconic line, but it's still, you don't get the with great power comes great responsibility. But, you know, I said it. I said it. Yeah, I voiced it over after I've been. Oh, you're right. And the voiceover towards the end. Yeah.

1:09:43Oh, yeah.

1:09:44Martin Sheen:I got to voice it over. You didn't see me, but you heard me say it. I wanted to see you. I guess you weren't paying attention. I've lost my nerd cred. Martin. Oh, no. But you're right. I remember, of course. You're right. You're right. The last one I want to say, Josh. it's okay the last one i want to mention um martin scorsese departed one of the most shocking deaths i've ever seen in a film i mean that's a gut punch that characters the way he shoots it just it's um but but what a treat to go up against leo marty disappointed that that kind of cut me out of a possible uh part two well they didn't make it for anybody so no worries there but i I mean, that must be, I mean, does that live up to the hype?

1:10:28I mean, Marty's a contemporary. I would think your paths crossed over the years.

1:10:32Martin Sheen:No, I met him years ago, but I never, I hope that all the directors that I've worked with, including Francis and Terrence Malick, will appreciate me when I say this. If I had a choice to work with another director that I've worked with before, without question, it would be Marty Scorsese. I adored him. And the chief reason was that I never worked with a director that loved actors. I mean, adored them like Marty Scorsese on the set. It was just so clear. He was working in that film particularly, talking about The Departed, some of the biggest young stars in the world. And they adored him. And it was a mutual admiration society.

1:11:22Martin Sheen:and they were all they were all so kind and generous and giving and the set was so fun despite the you know the horrible uh uh actions that were being done and the violence uh but you know it's first time i worked with jack uh nicholson and and he was such he was so generous and sweet to all the players and that that was the thing about the it was a it was an acting film Do you know what I mean? The whole film depended on performances. And so you had these young guys, all these young buffaloes with these big careers were doing some of their best work. and then you had one of the great cinematic stars in the world for 50 years, Jack Nicholson and he threw us all together and he made this extraordinary film but another thing about Martin was that he was so easy to trap in a joke You know, I remember one time I was standing behind him when the scene was going on with some of the lads I wasn't involved in.

1:12:39Martin Sheen:And he and he said, OK, cut. And, you know, and he comes, he walks up to the front. Oh, no, that was that was very good. You and that was very good. And I said, hey, why don't you tell him what you said? You said they were all stunk. It was the worst thing. No, no, no. I didn't say that. And everyone is laughing because you can. That's the way he was so vulnerable. You're so sweet. You could catch him. He would believe you. But, yeah, that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience. And he let me put Notre Dame in the film and make the sign of the cross as often as I could. And I adored him. And just for the record, it's the only film he's won the Academy Award for Best Direction.

1:13:24Martin Sheen:So I'm very proud to have been. Despite all of the great films he's done, with all of the great actors, I was lucky enough to be part a small part he needed the Martin Sheen to put him over the edge are you listening Marty? I like that you're still looking for work you're still looking for jobs you're good Martin you're greedy you've done everything no I mean look I don't even know what to say we hit the greatest hits you have over like 250 TV and film credits so we could have done this for 10 hours I appreciate the hour you spent with me today because your work, first I'll say this, your work is very meaningful to me, but honestly, the way you have walked the walk and talked the talk in your life and how you carry yourself as somebody that stands up for the right causes, it's, you know, you set the bar high for the rest of us.

1:14:16And I speak for many that say we admire you on so many levels. So for that, you have my thanks. And I'll remind folks again, Martin Sheen podcast, it's evergreen, as we've been reminded. You don't need to just tune in one week. It's there for you always, wherever you get your podcasts.

1:14:36Martin Sheen:Josh, thank you so much. And thank you for your support of our podcast and for, you know, being a part of this whole journey because you are a large part of it, as you know. And thanks to your interview with Emilio, we were introduced to you and we're eternally grateful. And the only thing that's surprising about this interview is that I didn't realize how young you were. Honest to God, I thought with your experience and with your knowledge, he has to be an old guy. And I had no idea. No one told me you were as young as you are. It's all the filters. It's don't worry. I'm an old man. Oh, I know about that.

1:15:16Martin Sheen:Look at this light went asunder here, right in the middle of one of my great stories. Why I ought to. Thank you, sir. Hopefully we'll meet in person one of these days. I appreciate it. I would like that. Thank you so much. I look forward to it. This has been a pleasure. Same here. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't ready to do this by Josh.

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