Matt & Ross Duffer

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17:03Matt Duffer:so okay so that first season when it drops it it it really clicked needless to say i mean what was the moment like when justice for barb becomes a thing like is that like the moment you're like oh this is really resonating in a deep way that most tv shows don't like is there is that a moment

17:22Ross Duffer:or what are the moments early on but also it was it was also strange we weren't on social media and also we had never made anything that anyone watched before. So it was a very surreal experience. And Sean Levy just kept telling me, he's like, this is not normal. This is not normal. So some of it was just hearing it from people being like, trust me, this is something different. And then, yeah, I think the Barb thing for sure. I remember there's a mural of her in Australia that popped up. And when that happened, you know, it was very surreal. And then there's, you know, when SNL made fun of us, I thought that was, you know.

17:56Ross Duffer:um i felt like they wouldn't do that for something that wasn't somewhat culturally relevant yeah so i was like okay that's you know this is interesting so no it felt really good and then we just we moved right into um i mean the most exciting thing about it for us was we get to keep keep telling this story so we didn't have much time to soak it in i think a lot of that was happening as we were already working on um the season two script so it's like it's fun but also you're just stressed about trying to figure out what the hell to do.

18:26Matt Duffer:So early on or later on, Reddit boards sometimes, always, never. What was your attitude? Have you ever gone into those?

18:34Ross Duffer:No, I've waded into the Reddit boards sometimes. It's fascinating to see how people are responding to things, seeing how people are responding to different characters, laughing when you're seeing how off people's theories are. um but uh you know not too often but sometimes yeah and sometimes it's mean that's okay um but i've i i'm not anymore like i've kind of it's kind of and i think it's just because it's in we're such a weird space where we're trying i'm trying to like disconnect from the show right but it's it's odd so um i feel a little detached from the fandom right now but i think i just need a break for a second.

19:14Ross Duffer:Totally.

19:15Matt Duffer:I mean, along the way, did any fan reactions ever affect you guys in the writer's room? Like this is what they're responding to. This is what they're not responding to. Or was that, did you decide early on that's going to be a perilous road to go down?

19:29Ross Duffer:You really try once you get into that writer's room, I mean, you soak in whenever a season comes out, we see what the response is and you soak that in. And then by the, when you get into the writer's room you try to you try to block it all out and just go what is the story um that that we want to tell but you take lessons and sometimes we're surprised by how the audience is responding to things oftentimes um we're not it's stuff that we've loved and found over the course of making a season like we knew like the class you know dustin and steve in season two we fell in love with them and then to see the audience fall in love with them too was great but so by the time we go into season three we go we gotta keep leaning into this so um occasionally stuff surprises you most of the time and ideally it's we're all we're on the same you can kind of tell as you're making you generally sort of tell as you're making it right so you don't totally know what's going to work or not work as you're moving into it and then as it starts to come together like there was a lot of uncertainty especially you know coming from netflix and stuff about the character of eddie we're very confident in it we're very confident in joe and as we started working with joe i think within a month everyone was like, okay, this is going to work.

20:37Ross Duffer:But on the page, no one was sure if Eddie was going to work. It was very contingent on an actor being able to pull it off. So we lucked out with Quinn. He was a little old, but that's why we just had to keep saying he just kept failing.

20:58Matt Duffer:Now he's a Beatle and a superhero. That's right now, man. That's crazy. Okay, so let's talk season five. I mean, season four was ginormous. Season five was also gigantic in similar respects and in other respects. How would you say, looking back at season five, was it the most challenging season for you? And in what respect would you say it was?

21:21Ross Duffer:It's hard. Four was so challenging, mostly also because we were shooting during COVID. And then we were at also, it's the one season where we're doing multiple locations. and we went to Lithuania for the Russian stuff, which was just awful timing with COVID. So I don't know if five was harder than that, but five had an element of there was an emotional component to it, which was not there with four. Four, we were just trying to get through it without people getting sick. And five, it was really, yeah, the closer we got to the end, the more emotional it was for us and all the actors.

21:58Matt Duffer:so we'll get to of course elves and but before we get to to that um what are your personal favorites of the of the season scenes moments character arcs what do you take some satisfaction in as the creators as the writers i don't know what do you i mean it kind of like it's weird i

22:18Ross Duffer:mean i don't we don't i don't look back to you know too much this is someone talking about this the other day because who was i don't remember some interview i was listening to where a writer was talking about the fact that it's hard for him to go back because he just sees all the things he, you know, he wishes he could change because Ross and I are constantly working on it and tweaking it and then it gets, you know, pulled away to a certain point. So when you go back, it's almost painful. But I don't know. I mean, there's like, what do you think, Ross? Are we talking season five or are we talking?

22:48Ross Duffer:We're talking, oh, season five. Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, I think, you know, one of the hardest things was the Maxi battle, all that episode four stuff, the climax of that um that was just to make that in terms of a pure sequence you know over the course of the show that was the most complicated um to pull off i think because it's nighttime it's kids there's a bunch of extras and tons of um stunts and visual effects so that pulling that off was one of our prouder moments of season five and then i think you know for us just the entire the last 40 minutes of the show was so meaningful to us just because every scene was really the last scene.

23:30Ross Duffer:We were working with these actors and we were so proud of them and everything they brought to every moment in that scene. And half the time they're not even acting in those moments. So it was really hard for all of us in all those days. And I just, so both writing it was very cathartic and then filming it, it felt like a goodbye and we're really proud of it. I mean, it was hard just because for, you know, it was like everybody was like, it kept having to be like, it's too early to be crying. Right, same. Right, so there's like tear continuity issues. But yeah, no, those were, and the only other sequence I would say that I'm really happy with, or particularly happy with, is the Wheeler House attack.

24:12Ross Duffer:Because we've been trying to do a home invasion sequence since season one. So it was like, it was finally, it was very cathartic and exciting for us to finally be able to do that. Because I was looking back at our pitch, because we're working on a pitch now, is we're looking back at our pitch on season one. And yeah, it had the, it was like it all climaxed at the Wheeler house. There's a big attack scene there. And we never, it never made it in. And so it was such a relief to finally do it and do it. A lot of it. And then season two had the upside down bridge exploding. And so there are all of these sort of accumulated ideas that we were finally able to do.

24:51Ross Duffer:I think we did like, I think we ran out of fucking ideas. I think we did. I think we did all of our ideas. Most of them. There's not too many lingering ideas. Yes. As it relates to Hawkins and the upside down. Like, I think we, we have a lot more ideas, but I think we got all of that. I think we got everything out of our system. Yes. In that final season.

25:07Matt Duffer:I mean, and then on, from character perspectives, I mean, we can talk about all of them, but we'll focus on a few i mean obviously a huge season for will and and in terms of the powers but obviously the coming out was something that you guys were talking about for a while talk to me a little bit about how that evolved and how far that back that went and then how it turned into the scene that it

25:28Ross Duffer:became yeah i mean well we were originally we're gonna it was gonna happen in in season four and what we realized is we got to those layer episodes that we just there hadn't been and we hadn't given in enough time and space and we hadn't we hadn't earned it which is when i'm so glad that we didn't end up doing it on in in season four because it gave us much more of a runway so when we built season five that was one of the first things we were talking about is will bringing the story full circle since he was the one that was you know first taken and really seeing him you know come of age over the course of the season and then of course tying in the powers is um is great and also something we'd been building to for a while so to do those at the same time um was was one of the moments once we realized that that this season for us at least clicked

26:20Matt Duffer:into place i mean as you guys well know there was a you know a segment of the fandom that really like grafted onto the will and mike relationship and read into you know wanted to see a reciprocated kind of relationship was that even ever discussed or was was it just not it didn't make sense narratively it just wasn't in the cards from the beginning no I mean no it's never never in the

26:42Ross Duffer:cards I mean so I mean we just wanted I mean the whole thing with the final season was like let's be you know we wanted to focus on being as truthful as we could to the characters that we you know created um from the beginning and do right by them and do right by the actors and so like the big litmus test for us and the scariest thing for us was kind of you know writing and sharing this final season, the final storyline with the actors. Because the only people who are closer to these characters or as close as we are to the characters or the actors, they've been living and breathing them for 10 years.

27:16Ross Duffer:And it was like, this has to work for them. This has to resonate with them. And luckily it did.

27:23Matt Duffer:Whose malicious idea was it? The cut to black at Steve's fake out death? Was that scripted as such? Was it in the edit? You're like, we got to cut to black here for a few seconds or what? Oh, yeah. I think that it was.

27:35Ross Duffer:It was in the edit. What's interesting, the Steve thing was actually we did we did half a half day of reshoots, which we've actually never done on Stranger Things before. It was just like little tiny miscellaneous things that we wanted to do. But the main reason we want to go back is because Steve's near death just wasn't we wasn't shot like that in a slow motion way. It all happened really fast. And the edit, it was just it's so dark that it was it just the moment wasn't going back. So then we went back with Joe Kire and we just built like a tiny, like three foot slab of the tower because we didn't have money to rebuild it.

28:10Ross Duffer:And we just did that moment where he just dropped and then we just milked it even more in the edit.

28:15Matt Duffer:Yeah. Jamie Campbell Bower's performance, unbelievable in the season throughout.

28:25Matt Duffer:I mean, how much was in the script to convey the ambiguity, the conflict that he is experiencing, especially as that final episode progresses in the cave? And how much was it just discussing on the set of how much he should show on his face? I'm just curious how we arrived to getting that feeling from him.

28:44Ross Duffer:I mean, Jamie's just, you know, he's unbelievable. I mean, he's like one of the most sort of devoted actors. I mean, he spends so long just on his own. It's mostly on his own, and I don't know what he's doing all the time, but he's really, he spends a lot of time getting into the backstory, trying to understand the character. I think the most difficult thing for him in this particular season was figuring out the Mr. What's-it character. figuring out, understanding why he was behaving that way, why he was there. And once he locked into that, it was really exciting to see that. But in terms of also the backstory, I remember it really, I mean, we've talked to him a lot about it in terms of that, you know, but him, I remember after we saw him after he saw the play, The First Shadow, and that also gave him a lot more understanding of where we were headed on this final season and what Henry was like as a kid.

29:38Ross Duffer:And I think that really unlocked things for him in a big way.

29:41Matt Duffer:So rank these Stranger Things villains from most sympathetic to most evil.

29:49Matt Duffer:Vecna, Demogorgon, Mindflare, Dr. Brenner. Who do you have the most sympathy for? Who's the most abjectly evil?

29:56Ross Duffer:Well, Mindflare's got to be the most evil right there. Number one, for sure. Where do you put Brenner? And Demogorgon is hard because it's an... No, Demogorgon's at the bottom. It's not his, it's just. It's just an instrument. Yeah, it's not, it's like an animal, it's like a lion. Like, what are you gonna do? We had it on record,

30:20Matt Duffer:he's defending the Demogorgon's actions. I'm defending it.

30:23Ross Duffer:Well, you're putting a bunch of bad people together. That's fair. You know? Yeah. I don't wanna hang out with the Demogorgon, but. Probably, I would put, I put Vecna two, and I put Brenner three, and Demogorgon four. That's what I would do.

30:40Matt Duffer:So let's talk more about that final like 45, 40 minutes, the epilogue, which was something you had planned. I mean, I remember when we did the postmortem on season four, everything you talked about came to fruition, like in terms of the structure of that final episode. Was there anything you didn't have time for? Like, was there a character that you contemplated showing where they were those 18 months later that you ended up cutting or did you get to everything you wanted? I don't

31:08Ross Duffer:I don't think so I don't because I think it was very it was very important that coda was very important to us I remember when we started working on season five that was where we started so we spent a long time on that and I don't think we cut anything no because it was really just making sure that every moment in there because we knew we only we couldn't do a two hour like wrap up coda so it's just every moment actually becomes very precious there that we wanted to be spending time with the characters that we've spent all these seasons with and time with, and we just wanted to make sure to do right by them in each of those scenes.

31:44Ross Duffer:So we were very careful as we wrote that, and I think exactly as it was outlined is how it was ultimately written. I mean, it's already quite long. I mean, I guess we could have kept going. Yeah. But no, we land on the Lord of the Rings. It fades out, and it fades back in, fades out.

32:01Matt Duffer:I did the math. The Lord of the Rings apparently was 27 minutes.

32:04Ross Duffer:I know we did the math too and we're like fuck is this okay supporting minutes all right

32:10Matt Duffer:I mean Elle has a couple of amazing kind of goodbye scenes let's talk about the Elle Hopper goodbye that exchange that they're both so great in that scene and it's yeah I mean Millie saying you know she's not Sarah just lands like a jackhammer what do you remember of writing it and of watching them perform that final scene between the two of them Oh, man.

32:34Ross Duffer:You know, it's that one also is something we've been building to for a very long time. Obviously, we I remember even after season one going, you know, realizing how talented and amazing Millie was and how talented and amazing David was and going, what if we just put them together? that's really what led to their arc in season two and season three. And so just to get to that moment and to do right by them. But they're both so incredible and they've been working together for so long that they just brought it. Yeah, it was one of those scenes that just sort of fell in place. It wasn't a struggle to get.

33:12Ross Duffer:And then it was always good in the edit. And then I thought in particular our composers, Michael and Kyle, who never explore anything beyond synth. I mean, they're very, they're synth composers. And then they started to play around with adding real piano and some orchestra. And it was really exciting. And I thought that took it to a whole new level. So, yeah, we're really happy with how that turned out. Right. And it's the theme. Yeah. The Eleven theme. The Eleven theme. Sort of. Yeah. With instrumental. So we only do instrumental very rarely, but we do it on where it feels like the moment really deserves it and earns it.

33:51Ross Duffer:And we don't want it to distract from the rest of the soundscape, but we're hoping that just for those few special moments that the audience realizes this is something a little bit different.

34:02Matt Duffer:For Mike and Elle's scene, how much of the, you kind of alluded to this before, how much of the tears are actually them crying, the actors crying versus their characters crying in that scene, you think?

34:14Ross Duffer:Who knows? I mean, it was like, it was a, no, it was a very emotional day. I mean, that was very emotional to shoot out for both of those actors. And we did a lot. That scene we did shoot quite a bit. So I think it was a little bit. And it wasn't Millie's last scene, but it was really her last big, big scene. Otherwise, it was like her standing and then, you know, where she gets wiped away and stuff. But in terms of interacting with another actor, that was the last one. So I remember her being really emotional and just coming in and I mean, delivering it take after take. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't it felt very raw and real.

34:54Ross Duffer:Some, you know, I think the biggest struggle in the edit was making sure that continuity was going to be OK because, you know, Millie or Finn, they were doing different stuff was kind of occurring every time because it felt so it felt so real. Right. There was nothing very choreographed about the whole thing, which I really liked. So that was the only struggle, was making sure everything matched okay in the edit. But once we figured that out, it was great. And then we added Prince, and that was it, yeah.

35:21Matt Duffer:When in doubt, add Prince if you can. At what point do you think Elle knows that sacrifice is inevitable in your head? When do you think she makes that decision?

35:37Ross Duffer:God, like the exact particular moment. I mean, Kali gets to her. I think the moment is, it's not at the, it's not when she really, really decides maybe it's at the end of seven in that truck. Yes, when she looks at Kali in the truck is sort of when that decision was made. And then what, you know, in terms of, and then also her final moment with Kali, you know, depending on what you believe her fate is, that was when the moment would switch right there when Collie's dying. We'll get to that, don't worry.

36:15Matt Duffer:So when did you first decide on Elle's sacrifice, this ending? And when did you tell Millie about it?

36:24Ross Duffer:I can't remember when we told Millie. Do you remember, Matt? This ending has been then planned, though, for many years. I mean, Millie's incredible in the sense that even by, like she figures out just by the way, like she's the most emotionally intelligent person I know. So she can pick up on the tiniest clues. So she senses that you're writing something before you've even written it. So she knows what we're thinking and she had a sense of what was coming. And I didn't even say anything. She's like, she's gonna die, she's gonna die. I was like, no, I'm not saying that. And then she just started to cry.

37:05Ross Duffer:So she, yeah, she's very emotionally sensitive. She's very, very connected to Elle. But it's hard to know exactly the moment that we told her. I think it was the, she didn't know for sure in terms of what happened to her until the table read, or at least in terms of what's presented in the show. As she's reading it. Yeah, no one knew. We tried as much as possible with Hola, as much as we could from them before that table read because we just wanted to see how it, you know, played in real time in front of them all. to make sure that it worked. More Happy Say Confused coming up.

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38:46Matt Duffer:So Mike asks his friends at the end if they believe, and they all believe, that story he tells. So who in the audience believes L? Let's do a clap. Clap if L L is out there. L is still alive. Do we think L?

39:07Okay.

39:09Matt Duffer:Now let's hear the opposing view. L didn't make it. L sacrificed and it's real.

39:15Ross Duffer:Okay. That's interesting. What do you make of that? Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's interesting. That's all that I'll say. I will say it's funny that so many of the actors are going out saying they don't believe. I'm like, what are you talking about? Sadie has said. Sadie, Caleb. Gaydon, I believe, also has doubted said that. They have never said that to me. I got to talk to them. So you're saying they're wrong. You're saying they're wrong. No, I'm not saying they're wrong. I'm just like, it's just interesting that they all concluded that without talking to us. Because that's not, but that's not what the characters believe.

39:52Ross Duffer:Right. I mean, they're good actors. Their own, yeah. So I don't know what's going on.

39:57Matt Duffer:there is a curious sound effect when the fade to black for the 18 months later we hear what sounds perhaps like a heartbeat which would many have interpreted as L still being alive

40:10Ross Duffer:I haven't been on Reddit in a while so I didn't know this was a theory it is written in this script that is supposed to sound like a heartbeat but it's actually just like what do you call it? the brick sure so I think it's that's what it is it's just distorted it but yeah you could interpret it as that i mean it was meant to be interpreted as that potentially

40:29Matt Duffer:do you imagine it took david chase like 20 years to finally say what actually happened at the end of sopranos is that the timeline we're looking at like do we have to talk if we're talking to you in

40:39Ross Duffer:20 years what does that mean i don't know i don't know about stranger things in 20 years i mean i hope so i hope people still care that would be great and then i'll then i'll say everything yeah okay at that point okay 20 years from now 20 years from now that's right an exclusive unhappy

40:55Matt Duffer:Happy second views if I'm still alive.

40:56Ross Duffer:That's right.

40:57Matt Duffer:Oh my God. All right. So the actual final scene, again, another hugely emotional goodbye to childhood, truly in a transitional moment for the kids, now adults. How much of that was fully baked? And how, again, how far back does that go?

41:15Ross Duffer:That goes back a long way. I mean, it's hard to, like, it's weird. My memory is so hazy because it's been 10 years in terms of when we had that idea. But I think it's been, that's been for a while. there's an inevitability about it you know in terms of who exactly was going to be there was up in the air but um you know we knew for a long time that that's how the show needed to end it needed to be a book in there and it needed them it needed to be them saying goodbye to their

41:40Matt Duffer:childhood but the addition of the new generation was that something that like holly coming down

41:45Ross Duffer:that was new yeah that was sort of discovered at the early on on breaking season five that was a new edition. And then I think it was a later edition when we went, Mike, the flash forwards where we saw people in the future, that was, that was a later edition, but everything else had been planned for many years.

42:05Matt Duffer:So the finale obviously got a brief theatrical run, which made, I mean, it did very well for Netflix, by the way. Like, I think it was 25 plus million in that very brief showing like had you been were there other permutations of like showing more in theaters more of this season earlier seasons did you come close because i know this is something you've

42:25Ross Duffer:wanted for a while right yeah it just never we really pushed for the finale because it just it made the most amount of sense because you want people to be experiencing it for the first time not like i'm gonna re-watch these episodes and so because the episodes were never week to week and now they were never on their own other than the finale it's the first episode we ever did its own drop. So that was really, it wouldn't have made sense, as cool as it would have been to show the other episodes. But it was an incredible experience just seeing it with fans, seeing them react in real time. We loved it.

42:59Ross Duffer:It was really a dream. Yeah, but it is like the whole point of the theater and the communal experience is experiencing something together for the first time and reacting. So this was the first time it made a lot of sense. And I think there's a little bit of misconception that it was a fight with Netflix. I mean, Netflix, it took a day, I think, from when we pitched the idea. I mean, the idea did come from us, but they were very supportive of it. So that was, we couldn't believe it. We were surprised, but we're very excited about it. And it was a ton of fun. I'll never forget that night. And the cut to black with Steve worked as we had hoped it would work.

43:33Ross Duffer:Yes, definitely.

43:35Matt Duffer:So it comes out, do the text groups, the WhatsApp groups, do they lie dormant or are they active? Where are you at in terms of communicating with the cast?

43:46Ross Duffer:The group chats that we're involved in, they were very active early on in the show. We were all mourning in, and I think it really helped us all to talk to each other and talk through it. And now we're still in touch and seeing people whenever we can and whenever we go to New York, we see everyone. So everyone seems to be doing great, and I think it's just a family. And so whenever someone's in L.A. or New York, we we see each other and it's hopefully that continues for many, many years.

44:17Matt Duffer:Do you feel like you've I mean, it's only been a few months. Are you still kind of in it? Like, where are your heads at right now? I mean, obviously, there are other Stranger Things projects going. There's the animated show. There's a spinoff, et cetera. The Broadway show. But I don't know. Do you feel a remove yet from the experience?

44:34Ross Duffer:It's it's been weird, honestly. I mean, not really, not totally. I mean, it was too long. It feels like a, I don't know how to even describe it to people. It's like, some days you're fine, and then some days it feels really sad. I think it was really, and I think about it, that when we ended production, it was incredibly emotional and incredibly sad, because you're kind of, that feels like, okay, this is the last time we're going to be with this group of people. and now it's sort of setting in that we're not going to be with this, you know, we're not going to be spending time even in our heads in this world or with these characters anymore.

45:10Ross Duffer:And so that's really still, I think, sinking in for us. So, you know, I'd love to be like, oh, it's really exciting. We get to go do new stuff, which I am very excited about and hopefully, you know, fall in love with new characters and new worlds. But there is it's sad, man. It's sad. Because, like, and the spinoff, you know it's very early I mean who knows but it's you know it's very exciting but it's definitely it's totally new characters totally different so it is really you know it's going to take us a while I think to and I don't think well I don't think they'll ever leave us because we've been with these Hawkins and these characters for so long so I think they'll always be a part of us but at some point I will be less sad about it

45:51Matt Duffer:this is a celebration tonight no tears tonight where is the spinoff at okay when last we spoke you were you were going off right after the finale to work on the spinoff? Is there a script? Is there a show Bible? Is there casting? Where are we at?

46:05Ross Duffer:We're out to Billy Crudup. We'll see.

46:11Ross Duffer:Fingers crossed. Fingers fucking crossed. Come on, Crudup. You fucked up. Last time. What can we say? I don't know where we're at. I'm going to get in trouble. We can't say anything. We can't say anything. Honestly, I don't think we say anything. I think the only thing I will say that won't get us in trouble is that we're just I think we're really trying not to. God, there's so much I wish I could say. No, I know. I know. Last time I even mentioned it, I got I got like in trouble. Said called you. I mean, trouble like they just know Ted did not. I didn't get in that much trouble, but I know I think we're just we're trying.

46:50Ross Duffer:We're being very careful. We don't want to rush it. We don't want it to be anything but excellent. it and so we're have you hired showrunners for it is there dude I don't know maybe maybe that's a yes maybe it's moving I mean it's moving it's gonna I think it's gonna happen but we just you know we're just like I said trying not to rush it we're trying no one wants to make it just to make it no one wants to just do it to continue Stranger Things like it has to be awesome or forget it that's sort of everybody's mentality about it but I think everyone's coming out from the right space.

47:26Matt Duffer:Would have Stranger Things in the title?

47:29Ross Duffer:These are great questions. Thank you. These are great questions.

47:35Matt Duffer:It's not an anthology show.

47:37Ross Duffer:It's a set group of characters. More good questions, Josh. No, no, it's not an anthology show. Sorry. Fair enough.

47:47Matt Duffer:I got something. Not really. But further extensions, obviously, I believe the animated show has been greenlit for another season, yes?

47:54Ross Duffer:we know that yeah yes yes so that'll come out and then soon yeah yeah because these things the animated stuff takes so long though so it was it's been in the works for a long time yeah so um okay

48:07Matt Duffer:some miscellaneous kind of most favorites um what's the most you ever cried watching a scene being filmed or in the edit what what scene broke you just as human beings we don't usually cry i

48:19Ross Duffer:I mean, the last scene of the show fucks me up. Every time, I just can't. Because it's not even just the scene itself. It's seeing Finn. All these actors are really crying. That's real crying. Seeing Finn break gets me every time. And it was the last day. It was the last day we ever filmed a show. So I always connected to that. So yeah, that one's hard to watch for me. I remember that shot. It was one of the last shots we did. And it's pushing it on Finn as he's watching Holly. and her friends down below. And Finn, and it was all the cast had come out, you know, Charlie and Matt and Joe, everyone was there to support it.

48:56Ross Duffer:And they were so, we were all just crowded around the monitor. And Finn just like immediately, take one, just nailed it. And that, that I remember, we were all getting teary eyed because we were so proud of him. And also we knew that it, that it worked. And I was spending, that really hit me hard, you know?

49:15Matt Duffer:One scene, one episode, you could get a second shot at. Is there anything?

49:22Ross Duffer:One scene, one episode?

49:24Matt Duffer:I mean, either war. Either war.

49:26Ross Duffer:Well, you know what episode I would love another shot at. The 207. Yeah, I would do that. I would do that again.

49:34Matt Duffer:What would you do differently?

49:35Ross Duffer:What would I do? Well, I think what I would do, first of all, let me just clear up some bullshit out on the internet. There's so much bullshit. We're going to be here a while. We'd be here all day. But it was never designed as a spin-off shoot. That's bullshit. That's not true. That's gross. We would not do that. No, but I think the mistake was this idea of a bottle episode. I think if we had threaded it in more organically throughout the season, it would have worked. So it wasn't anybody's fault except ours. I think I just would have approached how we integrated Kali differently. And we were so folk, Matt and I got so drawn into getting those last two episodes of season two written and prepping them because we were directing them.

50:27Ross Duffer:So that it just got it just got lost in the shuffle. And in normal cases, again, we don't this half day of reshoots is, you know, the most reshooting we've ever done. So and especially season two, we are racing, you know, it's the only season that came out in like an appropriate amount of time, as you know.

50:45Matt Duffer:So were there any other, had that been received well, came out more to your satisfaction, would you have done other bottle episodes? Do you have other ideas for bottle episodes?

50:53Ross Duffer:I don't know. That's a good question. I mean, we weren't happy. So I don't. You knew in your bones even before the reception that it didn't quite. Yeah. I mean, it was hit harder than I thought, you know, than I was expecting. But no, it's like usually not. We weren't like totally surprised by that. But I don't think I don't think it let the show lends itself well to a bottle. I think that was the lesson. But I think but but I'm still happy because I still remember coming in with the writers when we were on season three and we're all a little bummed about it because we're like this. It feels like so many people are talking about this 40 minutes and we did, you know, eight hours.

51:30Ross Duffer:But I think but it kind of emboldened us because we were what we were trying. We were doing a big swing and we knew it was a risk. Anytime you take a big swing, it's a risk. And we all sat down and said, we got to just keep, we can't be afraid now. Because then the shows, no matter what we do, it's going to be, it'll just be stale. It'll be like rinse and repeat. And then we went and, you know, season three is a crazy season. We just were like, let's just, let's explode some rats and, you know, whatever.

51:56Matt Duffer:It's good you learned the right lessons. You could have gotten more conservative.

51:59Ross Duffer:Yeah, that's right. We could have just gone back and try to remake season one, basically. But instead, it was like, let's keep pushing the show and see what. and it's not all gonna work, but let's see what works and doesn't go from there.

52:11Matt Duffer:What's your favorite death in the course of the show? Oh, my favorite death.

52:17Ross Duffer:I really like Bob's death because it's so brutal. Poor Bob. I know.

52:26Ross Duffer:Yeah, I think, yeah, Bob's is good. I like Alexi's death. Mike is a hard... Mike is a, yeah, yeah. This feels wrong. I just like it feels wrong I don't like it

52:40Matt Duffer:no we're just saying it was executed well and it should make them say all

52:44Ross Duffer:that's the whole idea right just brilliantly read and indirect although I I will say yeah I think you could have killed Steve

52:53Matt Duffer:it would have made them all just

52:54Ross Duffer:oh my god I don't know where I actually don't know where that came from so some things are surprising that whole like the internet getting themselves into frenzy or Joe dying that did or Steve dying that did result I don't know if we normally would have done him almost falling off the tower. So that is an example. That was a little bit of, that was us fucking with the audience, for sure. For sure. Which we don't normally do, but I was like, this is a golden opportunity. You really want it? No, we can't pass up. The Alexi surprise, I did not think Alexi was going to pop in the way that he did. That was surprising, unlike Addy, where I thought he would.

53:31Ross Duffer:I was surprised by the Alexi thing. It's always fun putting it out and seeing stuff like that happen.

53:36Matt Duffer:this is a tough one favorite relationship to write for oh

53:40Ross Duffer:like a romantic or not romantic relationship yeah romantic well I'm gonna say bromance with Dustin and Steve that's what I think of all things I'm gonna miss I think that would be that's what I in a lot of ways I'm gonna miss that in terms of romantic I always liked writing the Joyce Joyce Hopper scenes I like Lucas and Max because Lucas and Max like that's so sweet see I give it a better I guess he wins then. Fuck yes.

54:06Matt Duffer:Sorry, Jopper loses.

54:10Ross Duffer:We love that. We love that. They're so sweet and Caleb and Sadie are so sweet together. It's fun to write that.

54:17Matt Duffer:And is that something again, like so much of it, it's in the writing but then you see them connect on set.

54:22Ross Duffer:You don't know if it's going to work or not. And you saw that immediately? Yeah, I saw that I wouldn't say immediately it's so funny like boys that age interacting with girls Like they don't know what they're doing and they're idiots. And then they, it was actually, it was not our episode. It was episode six of season two. And it was a scene that Andrew Stanton directed of them. It was, it was Caleb and Sadie up on the bus at night before waiting for the Demodogs to come out. And I, you know, when we saw that cut together, I think actually Andrew put ET music over it, but it was so sweet. And I was like, okay, this works.

55:01Ross Duffer:Thank God. But it works.

55:02Matt Duffer:And what was unique about being on set for a Harbor Winona scene? It must have, their energies must have been fascinating to watch.

55:10Ross Duffer:Oh, yeah. But they, even though their acting styles are so different, they both respect each other so much and they've grown so close over the years that whenever they're on set, I mean, and they're the pros. And, you know, they've been at this for a very long time. And so whenever they're on set, they just fall right into place and right in the character. it's always a joy to watch

55:32Matt Duffer:who's among your young cast as they kind of grew up who became the one that asked the most questions

55:40Ross Duffer:Noah Noah asks a lot of questions which I like I like being asked a lot it's good I was really proud of Noah this last season he really put all of himself into it and he prepared a lot. And then on the day, he was just very focused and very determined to get it right. And he it became it felt very collaborative. So we spent a lot of time with Noah. He would come behind the monitor. He would look at the takes. He would just he just wanted to make sure he got it just right. And we had a really good experience with him.

56:17Matt Duffer:When did he get into the most trouble for spilling something or almost spilling something with you guys?

56:23Ross Duffer:Oh, no. I mean, Noah's been trouble for as long as I've known him no he's like it was so funny I'll tell this one story I don't know if we're gonna get in trouble for this but like he well he's he almost kills himself constantly right I don't know how this kid is alive you know what I mean if you go like when he's a little kid you're like don't step on that grate you could fall he then jumps on the grate right like that's the kind of kid that Noah is to the point where I don't know if you're in season five I was like, there's an electrical shed. It's not very high up, this electrical shed. And so him and Maya are up there.

57:00Ross Duffer:They're talking. That's where they fry the Demogorgon. And I go out there. Noah and Maya are both wired. So if they fall, the wire will catch them. I'm like, why are they wired? I mean, it's just like, it's not a very low. It's a pretty low building. And they're like, well, we don't trust Noah. Like, he might fall off the building. I'm like he's not an idiot he's like a 23 year old adult he's not going to walk off the building they're like well for safety reasons we can't do it and because he has to be wired we have to then wire Maya because otherwise that's weird it cost us so much money to erase these wires that's how little the stunt team trusted Noah wow I don't think he knows this so I'm so sorry Noah

57:46Matt Duffer:we're saving you from yourself I'm so sorry Noah

57:49Ross Duffer:I mean

57:50Matt Duffer:yeah that's sweet in a way but also alarming it's sweet i'm just glad i wasn't his real father right true yeah yeah all right we have some wonderful questions you guys submitted i'm going to read a few boris asks before stranger things became famous was there ever a moment where people doubted it we kind of alluded to that but what made you keep believing in it anyway what what did you have a certitude about it like this was the one this this felt we did we felt

58:16Ross Duffer:We believed in it so, so much. You know, for us, it was our favorite thing that we had ever written. But that our faith in it started to, you know, fall apart a little bit as we just kept getting rejected over and over again. And people just, the stuff that we loved about it, they just didn't seem to understand. Whether it was the fact that it was starring kids, but it wasn't a show designed for kids. The sort of Stephen King-Spielberg mashup. This is stuff that we thought it just sounded so cool. And when you get those blank, you know, A24 stares, you're like, I don't know. I love her just hammering A24.

58:55Ross Duffer:I really like A24's movies. Right.

58:58Matt Duffer:I bet Billy Crudup likes working with them, too.

59:01Ross Duffer:Good luck with that, Billy. But then, yes, the doubt creeps in at a certain point. And then we just got sad because we thought, you know, this thing was never going to be made or see the light of day.

59:11Matt Duffer:so looking back what would you tell yourself before season one started

59:17Ross Duffer:it probably would be not i think we would i wouldn't tell myself anything because i think it would have i think it was good to go in with that level of sort of anxiety that we had and the pressure that we had but also we were very naive and kind of didn't know what we were doing but i think that added to um i don't know it feels very sort of pure and innocent because of where we were in that period of time in our lives. And so I think it would be, I mean, it worked out. So I think it would be a bad idea to tell myself anything.

59:52Matt Duffer:This is an important one. If scoops were real, what would your choice of ice cream flavor be?

59:59Ross Duffer:I don't remember the scoops flavors. But we don't have to abide by whatever the scoops flavors were. I mean I'm not like a fancy ice cream guy I just want like cookie dough man like just something like solid I don't like when you put too much shit in your ice cream

1:00:24Matt Duffer:when you see like Joe officiating a wedding in his scoops ahoy garb you're like that's

1:00:32Ross Duffer:oh that was amazing he was he was not expecting that to get out though. I know he's like, come on, man. How could he? I know, I'm like Joe, seriously. But he called us, he's like, can I get the real Scoops outfit? And I was like, when is this wedding? He's like, two days. I was like, I don't know where that is. You just keep it on hand. Excuse me. Give me a little advance warning. But Amy, Paris, our costume designer, is amazing. And she found it and got it, Tim.

1:00:58Matt Duffer:What keepsakes do you have in your respective homes? What do you have as stuff you stole from set?

1:01:04Ross Duffer:Okay, we have a lot of sign. We have an office, and so we brought, for the office, we have a lot of signs. We have Benny's Burger sign. What are the other signs we have? We have the family video. Family video. That's not up yet. We have the Palace Arcade sign. Those are like signs are cool. And then we have the, in our office, we have the Eddie's shield. The one, I mean, Dustin and Steve use it later. I mean, a lot of this cool stuff, we were just told this stuff is going to evaporate to evaporate at a certain point. We wanted to bring the demo in. My favorite thing is we have a giant 11 Funko.

1:01:40Ross Duffer:How much does she weigh? Like 5 ,000 pounds or something. Something fucking insane. So it's like human size? Yeah, it's much bigger than a normal human. Yeah, it's massive. You can come to our office and check it out. I'll take you up there. But yeah, it's... We're never getting it out of there. But most of the good stuff, honestly, we gave to the cast. Because I felt they should have that.

1:02:00Matt Duffer:Gavin would like to know what villains inspired Vecna's iconic look.

1:02:05Ross Duffer:We talked a lot about Pinhead. We talked a lot about Freddy Krueger. I think those were probably the two biggest influences on Vecna.

1:02:16Matt Duffer:Did you ever consider a new love interest for Will since there were 18 months between the time jump? I mean, you allude to him exploring his life a little bit more in that brief moment, but was that kind of what you wanted to... the show in that moment.

1:02:32Ross Duffer:I think it's maybe at some early point it was discussed, but it was, we realized that it was, once we decided, you know, to put him on track with Maya, with Robin, it felt like we didn't want some external character that we didn't know to affect Will's journey. It felt like it needed to be more internal and about himself than some random character that we threw in.

1:02:57Matt Duffer:what made you choose Prince to finalize the series music wise?

1:03:02Ross Duffer:There was a lot of debate about that. We were trying to figure out it was really challenging because it was not just looking for, you know, a song that we really liked that would be right. Like it had to work emotionally, but it also had to be because of the way the sort of bomb device worked. You know, it had to be the last song on the A side of vinyl. and then the first song on that had to work for the prior moment which had to feel like upbeat and energetic so that after a lot of working looking like Purple Rain was the one that fit the bill and Purple Rain is such a massive iconic song hasn't been used very much at all it's very hard I mean we were worried about getting the rights to it

1:03:46Matt Duffer:but we managed to get the rights

1:03:47Ross Duffer:that one was actually harder than normal to get those rights yeah that was you know not easy No, but we got him before we shot the scene, luckily, so we could figure that out. It may have been a Joe Keery, honestly, because Joe is so knowledgeable. Him and Finn are both, and Maya, they're all so knowledgeable about music, much more than Matt and I are. So we would just keep getting long lists of ideas from them. Purple Rain was probably one of those that was on a bunch of people's ideas. I mean, Joe was the one who said we'd need to end with Bowie's Heroes because we hadn't played Bowie's original Heroes.

1:04:23Ross Duffer:He's like, that's what you got to end the song with, the show with.

1:04:26Matt Duffer:It's a good call. Yeah.

1:04:27Ross Duffer:I was like, good call, Joe. Yeah. He knows music if he didn't know. Yeah, he knows his shit.

1:04:31Matt Duffer:So after running up that hill, did anybody say no to you that you went to for music? Did that open up like the floodgates?

1:04:37Ross Duffer:That opened up the floodgates. So we actually ended up saying no to, I'm not going to say it, like crazy big bands are like, we will give you this for free. but you know that they all they don't just want to be featured kind of in the background it's like they want that like kate bush moment we're just going that's we're not gonna we're not going to even attempt that again because it would be silly so even a lot of what these big bands were asking for we weren't going to be able to do anyway and they wouldn't have wanted it would just it would they would be end up being compared unfavorably to kate bush because that was kind of like a lightning in the bottle thing but no we didn't we thought i guess we went after prince to be like well let's see if they fucking say no because it's like the way it's like beatles prince michael jackson like those are the top three right i think hardest to hardest to get zeppelin back in the day yeah zeppelin is that well yeah zeppelin's ridiculous um just cost wise stranger things

1:05:27Matt Duffer:has shown so much love to the 80s if you could reboot any 80s pop culture franchise and direct it what would you choose oh my god well this is this is nasty because it's just

1:05:38Ross Duffer:meant to like make some sort of fucking headlines great and it's not even mine i don't have to take the blame you still pick it josh i think uh oh man the night rider show what are you guys doing no the problem is i don't when when it's a class when when when a film is a classic i really i really don't i just don't want to mess we were just talking about this upstairs i don't want to mess with it like why am i messing with perfection yeah because some of this stuff comes to us right I think if I had to, I think we'd have, I would have a lot of fun with Nightmare on Elm Street because it just hasn't been done well in a while.

1:06:18Ross Duffer:And I think there's just so much potential with not just the character Freddy, but the dream logic aspect of it that he tapped into, like Frank Darabont, who we worked with, tapped into in Dream Warriors. So there's a lot, I think there's a lot of fun that you could have with that. The rights are really messy, though.

1:06:34Matt Duffer:I feel like you might now get a phone call.

1:06:37Ross Duffer:I've tried, man. I don't know. I don't think so.

1:06:41Matt Duffer:What's the biggest creative argument between the two of you you've had along the way?

1:06:48Ross Duffer:Man, we never argue. Josh, get along.

1:06:53Matt Duffer:I don't know what's been a long, drawn-out writer's room. I'm going to stand my ground on this one.

1:07:01Ross Duffer:Oh man, do you remember what the biggest argument was?

1:07:09Ross Duffer:Don't say the title, because I know that's what you're thinking. Oh, that was one. Yeah, that's a good one. Okay. The title, but that's, I feel like I've talked about this before. We hated Stranger Things as a title. Yeah. You hated it? And you know who really hated it? David Harbour. Like it's David Harbour, God, I should have had this ready, but he wrote, at some point I should just publish this email from him. This was his thing. We didn't know him very well. We had one meeting with him. We just cast him in the show and then I got the longest email about how awful the new title is. What an idiot.

1:07:50Matt Duffer:You know who loves the title? Billy Crudup. Big fan.

1:07:56Ross Duffer:I know.

1:07:57Matt Duffer:So what was the strong second? I probably should know this. Is this out there? What was in the running besides Stranger Things?

1:08:02Ross Duffer:Well, it was originally Montauk, so we were just struggling. I think we had lived, I know it sounds weird to people now, but we had lived with that for over a year. And that's what David and everyone signed up for Montauk. And it was not just the setting, but the title and everything. So it was just very hard to wrap our heads around what to call the show. I honestly don't remember what the run. We had no really good other options. Well, we and it was, you know, I like Ted actually got so Ted Sarandos got so fed up with us not settling on a title that he said by I think it was like he gave us two weeks.

1:08:39Ross Duffer:He was like, by the end of that day on Friday, you got to give me a title. And he's like, and you'll get used to it, I promise. And we have a straight. He was right. Yeah. Because those early deadline are like any articles, news articles on the trades or whatever. It's like untitled Duffer Brothers project. And everyone's like, who the fuck are the Duffer Brothers? it's like you gotta give this a title you gotta give this a title you're reading no one knows who you are but he was yeah he was right it was like just just just pick one pick one but i was confident in it for what it's worth if i i'll try to think of another argument we had you you you were very

1:09:13Matt Duffer:adamant with me and others like there's no intention to continue with these characters you this was the story you wanted to tell um that being said we have holly and her friends playing in that basement if a great creator comes to you and says, I have an idea? Does Jordan Peele be like, hey, I'd love to do the Holly adventures in Hawkins?

1:09:33Ross Duffer:Well, it's Jordan Peele called. That's not happening, though. No, I don't think so. No, because that also wasn't intended for that, right? That was not meant for that. And by the time that was written, Nell would be like 17. So no, it wasn't meant for that. I mean, we have this one idea. we've had one idea for what we could do with Stranger Things and we had it like seven years ago. So that's what we're trying to do now. If we had another good idea, we would do it. I mean, if Holly starts to win this weird stuff, she's just going to call her brother. And then it's like, we're just making Stranger Things again.

1:10:03Ross Duffer:So I think, you know, for us, yeah, that was really about sort of the passing the torch and him remembering back to his childhood and saying goodbye to it than it was. It's not obviously setting anything up for a sequel.

1:10:17Matt Duffer:When are we going to see a film from you guys? is that high on the list? You've got a lot on your plate.

1:10:22Ross Duffer:Yeah, that is mostly what we're focused on right now. That is our main focus. It's just working on this film. It's been really fun and rewarding. We haven't written a film in a very long time, but it's exciting.

1:10:38Matt Duffer:So how long have you been working on, is it an original idea, not IP? Yes, it's an original idea.

1:10:43Ross Duffer:It's not long. We started in April, I think. Oh, wow. So it's really, we haven't pitched it. Like nobody knows what it is. Paramount doesn't know what it is. So they might not like it. I don't know. So what we're doing, we started doing the spinoff and now we're doing this. So we're kind of bouncing between the two. But it's weird because we're so used to having this massive canvas. We're used to having being able to tell a story over, you know, eight, ten hours. And so, but it's fun. I mean, we were originally film people. So it's really fun to kind of relock and reteach our brains how to tell a story in this much more contained period of time.

1:11:20Ross Duffer:And it's fun. It's like a Swiss watch, right? Like the best films. You can't have a single line that you don't need. So that part of it, it's challenging, but it's very fun. It won't have a 40 minute coda. I'll tell you that much.

1:11:33Matt Duffer:It will be a genre film, I imagine, somewhere in the...

1:11:37Ross Duffer:Yes. yeah I don't I don't think like I don't think you'll yeah we're not making blue valentine you know what I mean like that would be shocking like bare amount be like what is wrong with you no so I think I think it'll be it's very different than stranger things but it won't be you won't be confused to be seeing this movie coming from us if that makes sense and we can now call it untitled duffer brothers project and people know what it means yeah it will have more meaning yeah exactly than it used to.

1:12:04Matt Duffer:Congratulations, guys. Thank you always for indulging me and my crazy questions. 10 years of your life. Thank you for contributing it to our entertainment. You nailed it. Congratulations again. Stranger Things Fog. Thank you. Give it up. Matt and Ross Duffer, everybody. Thanks for coming out tonight.

1:12:28Matt Duffer:And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

1:13:02Matt Duffer:work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans.