Paul Bettany, Vol. II

31:48Did we ever come at all close to the Master and Commander sequel? It was talked about for so many years. Was it just you guys being asked by people like me, or was there real talk at some point? No, I think there was real talk at some point, and I think that Russell had a really good idea.

32:08The problem with that movie is that it didn't make enough money for people. It did well. It made its money back and it made some money, but it just wasn't enough. And I think that's a shame, because I think there was, you know, real life in that as a movie we could have, some characters we could have kept making movies now. Speaking of Russell, is this true I forgot this? And not to bring it down again, but like were you cast in Les Mis? Were you going to play the Javert part in Les Mis, the film? No, I read for it. Oh, was that it? You weren't actually like... No. Okay. Because you've never done the movie musical thing.

32:59I haven't. I haven't done that.

33:04And I love to sing. This is what I'm saying. Was that the closest you came to a major musical like that? Yeah, I think so. yeah yeah I guess people don't see me that way well come on people it's not too late mama Mia 3 is just sitting right there for you three how's your ABBA hey you know my ABBA is great very much for asking sounds like a medical yeah how's your ABBA doing oh it's fine a little bloated who do we credit what we know I can credit Favreau for casting you as Jarvis way back when who do we credit with the leap to vision was it was that a Joss idea was that us just yeah yeah actually that's a pretty great story because I'd made a movie called Priest and it tanked and because it was supposed to well I mean there may be many reasons why Priest tanked but just one of them was that it was supposed to come out in January and they had a problem of Green Lantern and they realized they would lose less money if they put Green Lantern in our spot and us in Green Lantern spot and then we came out between Thor and something else you know a movie it was like being in a Prius crushed by two you know SUVs right wait this is not the right time for this you know whatever it was 25 million dollar vampire movie and and and so so that happen and you know you're sitting there you know unable to get hired because you've been in this film that's tanked and then when Joss Whedon asked me to do it I found out that the when they when he talked it through with Kevin and co they were like they were like yeah I mean he's so fun he's fun and you know they've really enjoyed working with him but can he can he play a superhero and they showed him priest and so this movie that I thought you know had was really good but it actually was your test tape exactly and life is curly and you just don't know what you know what's coming down the pike I have this vague memory correct me if I'm wrong because I've been interviewing you pike pipe something with a P must be a pipe way back when because I probably interviewed you for Priest and Legion and those films and that was around when you were doing the Jarvis voice and I feel like you told me you hadn't even watched the Iron Man films at that time is that true?

36:05like by the time before you actually played Vision yeah but that it was I think that I don't watch a lot of my movies okay so I've never seen Dogville you know I've never there are a lot of movies that so yeah that was nothing to do with... I have subsequently watched them all because, you know, when I was going to play Vision, it became more important for me research-wise. Right. Lizzie said that you were basically the early conspirator to kind of like bring that relationship to the fore when you guys started to do stuff on screen, that you were basically like, if we build something in the subtext here, there might be something for us in the future.

36:51Well, I mean, also Joss was really helpful in that. Yeah. You know, he wanted, but it was just begun in looks. And I think that,

37:09I thought it would be a pretty helpful and fruitful vein for us. Because there's nothing else like that in those films, you know. And it's a really, it's great to have your own lane. Yeah. You know. Is it true, how true is it that your death, one of a couple deaths, your death at the end of Infinity War was kind of built on the spot was totally real yeah so i don't understand i mean i kind of do knowing what i do about marvel but but like what was on the page what did they say to you how was it developed um i can't remember what was on the page now from what we made up but um it was the you know the russos were like so um just uh just i don't know just improvise this bit And I went, wait, what?

38:11And, you know, we were both really terrified. I went, improvise being a robot and having a stone removed from my head. Like you've done in drama school. Yeah, yeah, yeah, do that. Just do some, just say some stuff. All right. So we. So what I see on the screen there, those lines are essentially. Yeah, I mean, I think there were lines there. I'm sure there were lines there, but definitely I think there was one line.

38:50But I don't think all of that, like, we're out of time and all of that stuff was on the page. So what's the sense of satisfaction? Talk about having some space. You had some space at a giant movie to create something and then to sit in a theater that premiere to see that kind of seen realized and see it work in that way must be amazing. Yeah, I mean, relief. Yeah. Relief. Because I just, I mean, I think both she and I finished it. You know, you have to imagine it without the effects and without the score, you know. And she's doing her witchy stuff. and I'm going I'm there sort of beatifically dying with a which must look really cool and there's just silence are we wrapped yeah and then we finished and and she looked at me and I looked at her I was like I just I don't know but when I what when I when I interviewed Harrison Ford when he was Red Hulk and the last Captain America movie I asked him like how do you silence the part of your brain that tells you look like a crazy person on set and he said that's what the money is for basically.

40:11That's funny, yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean I remember Joss Whedon, I was on my knees firing a blast from my forehead or something, it's in the first film and he was like, So how did it how do you feel you good? And I went how does it feel I? What do you I have not does it look cool? I can know I'm pretending to fire a laser beam out of my forehead I have no idea how it feels. I feel a bit silly But then you know the laser beam on there looks pretty cool. Oh my god I hope you're not sick of talking about this because it's such an important moment to so many is the is the line in WandaVision which has become this iconic piece of pop culture.

40:59Forget comic books. It's just so meaningful to so many people. What is grief if not love persevering? And I know you've told the story a bit, but for those who don't know, not quite improvised, but built. Oh, it's the opposite of improvised. I mean, I think that line was built by so many people. Right. And it kept being close, and I was like, gosh, it's just missing. and it's missing something. And they kept going back, and then it was Jack's assistant came in with the coffees, and she went, persevering. And we all went, that's it. And yeah, the lines have had a life of its own. I have to say,

41:51you know i never see actors thank editors and they should um as somebody who has directed and edited a movie let me assure you actors absolutely should be thanking their editors when they accept awards thank you for cutting my shit bits out but one of the things that is amazing about that moment is it's not played on me right it's on her it's played on her yeah um uh and i think that's that's look it's a great line but i think that what makes it really moving is seeing it land yeah with her and uh uh that's a lesson to an actor too like a young actor maybe with an ego be like oh why didn't they use me why didn't they like i'm whenever somebody has cut me out of anything.

42:42I'm convinced it was because I was being bad and I've been saved. And I really mean that. So I've never, ever had that feeling. I do love that line though. And I am, you know, when you go around to the conventions or whatever, the real meaning that it had for people. I can't tell you the number of people that come up. I've seen people with tattoos of it and and it's um it's a it's a lovely thought it's very well wrought line um uh and um very little to do with me and i mean i mean it i mean it's just a very well written line and then the the shot is on her she's doing all the acting it's so i get all the credit WandaVision was a huge swing and it connected.

43:41We're going to be talking soon more about Vision Quest, but to tease it a little bit, Terry Metallis, I was telling you before I'm a big fan, he's the showrunner this time around. In relation to WandaVision, how big a swing is this one, do you think? Huge. Yeah, huge. It manages to feel

44:04very much like it's a part it's it's somehow a part a part of that world of those um you know an end to a trilogy of sorts yeah um uh but whilst also being very much its own thing and it is um

44:26just really good. I'm really proud of it. I've been, we've been in an editorial for a long while now, and I keep seeing cuts of it that just are getting better and better, and then as all the the effects get placed in.

44:48And really, yeah, it's funny, it's moving, and it's super exciting. And he did a grand job. And we get Spader back in the mix. It's been a long time. Yeah, it's Spader back in, yeah. And he is delicious. Of course he is. He's Spader. He is one of one. He is so funny in this. It's so delicious to watch him. And we loved working together. I loved it so much. Wait, what form of Ultron? Am I seeing James Spader's face this time? Am I seeing a physical manifestation of Ultron? I think that would be beyond my pay grades to tell you. But worth sticking around for. Worth sticking around for.

45:42And it's largely a story. The story largely revolves around that relationship. And it's real fun. It's fun stuff. I'm very, very excited. And last thing on the Marvel front, you have teased that if not Doomsday, perhaps Secret Wars might be coming for for you I think so I mean I think that you you know as much as touch wood as much you know keeps the kids in private school as much as you know anything growing on at Marvel no as much as a or they change their mind, or they, you know, you just, you really do never know. I mean, it's true that you never know, by the way. I mean, when Wheel died, we found out that day.

46:47Right, on Infinity War, when you were... Yeah, they took us into like a trailer with Previs, and everybody was sitting watching the screen going, oh I I die nobody knew we didn't know is there a parting gift like a goodie bag they what you walk out of the tent with I just get out of here kid thanks for your time yeah yeah no so no it was it was uh so you really don't know they really do keep this stuff very secret right so it's more of kind of like a hold this space potentially we think and script pages will come when they come Yes. Right. I got you. What's up with the Harry Potter thing? Am I going to see you as Voldemort?

47:30Is there truth to this rumor? I've heard nothing about that through any official channels at all. Okay. That's just a rumor. These are just rumors. You haven't heard from David Heyman, the whole, anything from. Okay. No. I mean, I think it's amazing. You know, I like the IP versus what people say. Yeah. but

47:53yeah I don't know and maybe that's enough prosthetics for me in my life it's been it's been a lot again the skin is glowing maybe it's good for you maybe that's what it is preserved by by an array barnish that they put on my face just be vision so you're ambivalent about losing your nose for the sake of a job the next 10 years. I'm sure that'll be AI now, right? I don't know. Have you thought about, if that phone call comes in, how seriously to take it and what your take could potentially be? No, not yet. I haven't. I mean, because it's literally a rumor. And I think that that stuff is how you go mad as an actor.

48:45Right, right. if you followed every internet, Reddit rabbit hole. God, I'm going to be James Bond. Speaking, why has the James Bond conversation never really happened for you? It feels like you've never been in that list. You should have been. Was it timing? Was it... No. No, no, no, no. I don't know. I don't think anybody ever says no to Bond. Right. So, you know, they find out before even starting those conversations, how interested you are in that sort of franchise, you know. So I don't know that you ever get to... If they're talking about you, it's because they want you. And you've said, I would be interested.

49:42You know what I mean? Right. One thing I want to tease also, So besides Vision Quest, I'm very excited. You worked with Tom Ford, who does not direct very often. Yeah. This is just, I believe, his third film. Yeah. And I think his first two have been exceptional. Yeah. How was the experience on the new Tom Ford film? I really adore him. Yeah.

50:05He's also delicious, you know? Yeah. He's so naughty. Yeah. So funny. so it's a yeah he's like he's he's got a similar deliciousness that James Spader has where James Spader will say the absolute worst thing he can to make me laugh and I love it yeah and so yeah it was a really it was a really fun to go and hang out with him and in Rome and it's all the cast it's what he does now is he doesn't have anything to do with his Tom Ford business, and he wants to make movies, and so he should, because he's really very good at them. Yeah. And he's so relaxed on set, and so easy to work for, and so excited, and just hilarious.

51:05yeah yeah the smartest thing I clocked it after I interviewed him a couple times for the last film is like every time I would interview him he would compliment me on how I was dressed and then I would hear him say to everybody I'm like oh Tom Ford knows knows what to say and it comes from Tom Ford that's clever alright we're gonna end with this Paul the happy second fuse profoundly random questions for you okay you ready you kind of alluded to this already but let's do it dogs or cats both okay what do you collect guitars is it more than what was the other thing that uh jennifer is not fond of my camera cameras there's that too yeah yeah um i have too many guitars and i give guitars away in fact i was at a friend's house um the other month and i was playing their guitar and i went I love this guitar I should get a Jumbo Gibson he went this was your Jumbo Gibson you gave it to me and I went it was so I I have a habit of buying guitars realizing I have too many guitars and then giving them away and then and then getting jealous when I play like god this is such a good guitar where did you get this guitar yeah so if there's a guitar in New York City it's probably been owned by Paul Bettany at some point.

52:27That's right. Yeah, guitars and cameras. Well, not cameras. Lenses. What's your favorite video game of all time? I don't really play video games. Never as a kid even? You weren't like just old school? Ms. Pac-Man, nothing? No. Didn't do that stuff. More importantly, the Dakota Johnson memorial question she asked me. I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt? Fuck in hell. Let's see. I think a bee in the butt. Yeah. I think so. I think that's medically the way to go. I think, yeah, I think I'm going butt bee. Okay. We'll see to that after the taping. Right.

53:13Thank you. How do you know there's not one there? Needs a friend. What's the wallpaper on your phone? Oh, it's my son and his girlfriend last actor you were mistaken for oh my gosh did it ever happen nowadays doesn't really happen nowadays I I have it back it back in the day I have signed before you know I just I guess before people had cell phones the whole time, you know, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got mistaken. Somebody clearly recognized me as, you know, knew I was sort of famous, but not... And they were like, Jude, Jude. And so I signed for Jude Law.

54:12They're worse people to be. Oh, no, he's super handsome, yeah. Yeah, I was terribly flattered, I think. Yeah, but not really. Your height is a differentiating point. You've got the height over most of your contemporaries. I tell you who does mistake me for someone else, and that's Don Cheadle. Don Cheadle and I were laughing. I find him so funny. Oh, yes. So funny. Yeah. and I we were shooting um maybe it was Infinity War and I was like oh don I hate that this is coming to her and I you know one day I just really like you know we should make a movie together and he went we are making a movie the other I went no another one you know outside the Marvel world And he went, we did.

55:08I cast you in my movie about Miles Davis. I went, that's Ewan McGregor. He went, you're not Ewan McGregor? It's a great joke.

55:20It's a great joke. It's good. What's the worst that a director has ever given you?

55:31Oh, I don't know about me, but I remember being on set when a director, it was his first film, and he said to the actress who I was playing opposite, who will remain nameless, he went, you're, God, I just, I really want you to be good in this and you're being bad. No, no. And I went, well, that's lunch, everybody. and then spent an hour putting this poor woman back together and like her ego back together. So yeah, that was unhelpful. How's he doing now? How's she doing now? Are they both in the business? Yes, both still in the business. Both very good, actually. Amazing. And in the spirit of happy second fuse, who's an actor who always makes you happy?

56:25Oh, wow. That's a great question. Oh.

56:32Ryan Gosling. Yeah? Yeah? Come on. My God, he's funny. Project Hail Mary. I mean, everything. I thought he was great. I haven't seen that yet. Really? Yes, but he also just makes me happy when I come across him being interviewed. He's just so funny. Do you know the story he did on Graham Norton about him being massaged by this guy? and he was like, and he's trying to put his foot and his hand together behind his back, and then he went and he had this really hairy belly, and his belly went in my mouth, and you know when there's something in your mouth and your tongue tries to figure out what it is?

57:15And it's just the funniest story. It's really great, self-deprecating, and I love his humor. It really makes me laugh. what's a movie that makes you sad movie that makes me sad oh no does it make me sad it I feel like the deer hunter makes me sad but not it just in the way that I feel the courage of having, I don't know, 50 minutes of a Polish wedding at the top of your film and the truth of how engaged that makes you with the rest of the film. Yes, you spend the time, you invested that group of men. and and um and we don't do that anymore yeah we don't have the patience it's just what when's the next set piece what's the next yeah yeah yeah it's a classic and finally a food that makes you confused oh yeah this is easy uh peanut butter and jelly like what are you all doing right what what what's what's going on in your head that that's a good idea right um and i feel the same way about bacon near pancakes with maple syrup.

58:55What is going on for... I've lived here for 23 years. There are a lot of puzzling things, but there are a lot of amazing things about America. I am an American, but what in God's name are you doing with peanut butter and jelly and maple syrup and bacon, right? It's just not okay. So the issues we're having, maybe politically, forget it what's really bringing this country down first Iran and now this yeah still the iceberg great hot takes from Paul Bettany thank you sir hot takes from Paul Bettany coming full circle let's remind folks Amadeus as always great piece of work five parts on stars beginning May 8th you and the exceptionally talented Will Sharp check it out you kill it as always It's really, it's a really good one.

59:52It's a good one. The UK beat us to it, but we're catching up here in the States. Excellent. Thank you, Paul. Thanks for stopping by, as always. It's good to see you, man. Lovely to see you. Okay, as promised, it is time for a little bonus material on Happy, Sick, and Fuse. And I can't think of a better person to have than my longtime friend. He's not a neighbor anymore, sadly, but he is Benjamin Wagner. He's the director. He is the subject, to a degree, of his new film, Friends and Neighbors. Benjamin, welcome to the podcast. It's good to see you. Thanks, man. Thank you for doing it. Thanks for having me.

1:00:24Of course. Congratulations on the film. We should remind folks at the start. We'll remind them later. I believe as we tape this, as you guys are watching or listening, Friends and Neighbors is going to be available on VOD, I think May 15th. Correct. Exactly right. That's right. Apple, Amazon, et cetera. Yep. And streaming right now on PBS app. So lots of ways to see this. Congratulations. Thank you. This has been a long road, I know, and an important subject. But give me the elevator pitch. This is a film that deals with chronic stress, your own, and is a prism through which you're looking at our collective chronic stress, I would gather.

1:01:00So what do you say to folks that this film's about? Of course, listen, man, I'm not good at elevator pitches. The long story short is I was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress at sort of in the height of COVID. And I was like, what are you talking about? I'm not a soldier or a cop. It didn't register. And then the guy explained a little bit of it to me in terms of these things called adverse childhood experiences and what trauma was and what chronic stress is and complex trauma. And like immediately I saw it happening all around me, like, like, you know, culture was slash is kind of going bananas.

1:01:38You know, people are acting out all over the place. I saw that the me story was a we story, you know, reportage of anxiety and depression. like in the 40 percentile, like, you know, liquor stores booming in COVID and people acting out on airplanes and shootings and all kinds of stuff that we're seeing every day in the news and in our algorithms. So I immediately saw the me was a we. And, you know, my first film was Mr. Rogers and me. And so Fred's like a mentor, a neighbor, a real neighbor. And so I knew enough about Fred to think, oh, this is a way in for a zillion reasons, which we can talk about, but not the Lisa, which is Fred always told us to look for the helpers.

1:02:18And I, in this moment of duress, personal duress, I said to myself, I'm going to go look for the helpers. I'm going to go find the people who can explain this to me and who can help me understand what I can do about it with myself and what we can do about it as a culture. So, I mean, like you're, you're, you're wearing a long elevator ride. No, no, it's a good one. But I mean, you're, you're, you know, you're wearing a lot of hats and something like this. Forget for a second, like the filmmaking of it and kind of being front and center. But, you know, you've dealt with these issues. Obviously, these are issues that are ongoing.

1:02:49So, like, I guess my question is, does making a film about PTSD and chronic stress help your own PTSD and chronic stress? Yes. Well, whether the making of it helped is tough to tell, right? Because I'll never know. I did it really concurrently. You know, I've lived my life kind of in public for a couple of decades in a small way. Right. I was one of those bloggers back in the day. You know, I've had a podcast from down again. I'm a singer songwriter. You know, my first movie is Mr. Rogers and me. Personal storytelling has always been native to me. Michael Moore's film was the, you know, Spike Lee, Kevin Smith.

1:03:31These guys all are were sort of folks I looked up to. And so it just made sense to me to do it that way. It was my way through and in. I will tell you to cut to the subtext of your question. I feel incredibly alive and awake in a way that I didn't know was possible. I didn't really know the type of dress I was in because I was like a frog in boiling water. You know, I lived in New York City for 25 years, working in some very stressful gigs. I was traveling the world for the Facebook journalism project. And until, you know, COVID, like I think this is what was happening to a lot of us. When we got stopped in place, you couldn't outrun your feelings, right?

1:04:13And I had a lot of them and a lot of them had been stuffed down for a lot of years. And so as a friend recently said, you can go over, you can try and go around, but the only really way to do it is to go through. I had to get present with it. And so, man, I feel terrific. I feel alive and awake. I mean, from a diagnostic standpoint, there are data points that are used by psychologists and so forth to sort of assess this stuff. And all of my data is markedly improved. But more importantly, I can tell you, I feel radically present in my own life, which is like a pretty good thing to be. I know the demarcation moment kind of set you on this latest path is August 2021, when you get diagnosed with PTSD.

1:04:57Is that like a root? I mean, you know you've been dealing with issues over the years, but when you hear those words, what do you think? Well, my first thought was, what are you talking about? Because it's like, and I think this is what's so useful. And one of the reasons why I did it, and I knew the me was a we, is once you get this idea of like, oh, there's a physiology to stress, like we embody our stress, which sounded like I'm Gen X, man. That sounded pretty hippie to me, like eye roll Big Sur stuff, you know? And as it ends up, like sometimes our most fundamental truths are kind of eye rolls because they're counter, sorry, capitalism, empire, patriarchy, things like that.

1:05:35And there are whole systems in place to keep us in these sort of norms. So, yeah, it was a rude awakening because I didn't really get it. But like it didn't take me. I mean, it was so immediate because it was it was all around us, man. And it still is, by the way. But I think we're back to this busyness of life that enables us to kind of just be like, I can't do that right now. And I found it's it's really worthy work. And as it ends up, is it hard? Yeah, of course it's hard. it's really tough to like reconcile with like, I don't know, like I kind of all kinds of garbage in my life. Most of us do.

1:06:11Yeah. But it's really much less weight to carry. Once you again, go through it. Yeah. My, my, my, my sadly meta moment was watching this film last night and I was so stressed like that the last night anyway, I had just so much shit going on. So many like different stupid things and I'm watching this and I'm like giving to get my full attention. And then I'm like, Oh my God, this is, this is, this is my life. This is all our lives. Take a breath. I mean, I don't have the tools that you've found, but it is, I think it will inspire folks to kind of look for whatever tools will hopefully. Well, I hope so.

1:06:47And listen, I think it's important to point out that I made a choice to take the time to find the tools. And I decided to take, I like really made a conscious effort. And I also have a certain amount of privilege that enabled me to do so just by the color of my skin, sort of my station. And I think that's important to acknowledge, but, but the basic fundamental tools of healing, if you will, or of just becoming more present in your life is available to everybody. And you know, cause I don't want to spoil it, but like, there's a very fundamental thing called the breath. And like a lot of us, when I was a kid, my mom would say, well, take a deep breath, honey, to calm me down.

1:07:23Well, ends up taking that deep breath in actually activates us, right? That actually gives us energy. It's the exhale that tells your body that you're safe because you can't exhale if you're trying to outrun a saber-toothed tiger or catch the seven train, right? Or a cab or what have you, or someone's yelling at you. So, that exhale is like a gateway. And again, I appreciate how this sounds, man. We have known each other a long time. But imagine running a news meeting with a couple of deep breaths before you start the news meeting, you know, or, or before you step on stage with Stan Tucci, you know, and perhaps you do that, but it's very useful.

1:08:02And it's a great gateway just to enter the space of like, I got to get back in my skin because man, we are in our, in our devices. We are in the chaos around us. We're in these screens and they're awesome for doing this sort of thing, but they're not great for the sort of being in relationship with other humans and being in relationship with ourselves. I mean, I should mention people can probably tell by the nature of our conversation. We do have a long history. We've known each other for basically 20 years. Yeah. We were instrumental in the beginning of this career, whatever this is, of getting to MTV where you were basically hired me.

1:08:36You and a great guy named Michael Alex. But I'm curious, that was a high-pressure media job. You went on to other high-pressure media jobs, including Facebook. Yeah. is it you don't tie the stresses and the and the ptsd to those jobs i feel like they it would have come out in other forms in other ways don't don't you think i mean those are great that's a great question i mean the answer is yes and um there's a a body of research and a a line of logic that says my nervous system based on the adverse childhood experiences i had as a kid um we moved you know, seven times before I was seven. My parents were never, they never really got along.

1:09:16They never really settled into the marriage. It was a very acrimonious divorce. There was violence. We experienced violence. There was violence between my parents. Then I moved a thousand miles away from my father. So I'm kind of fatherless from nine to now. And then I get my jaw broken, which is kind of the icing. You know, I'm assaulted in a parking lot, as you now know, which is kind of the icing on the cake. So those are called adverse childhood experiences. And a certain number of those predispose you to certain outcomes. It is a great bit of research by a Dr. Folletti in the late nineties, early aughts.

1:09:51Why would I know this, right? Until you get this kind of diagnosis, I would say a lot of folks don't know this sort of thing. So that's the foundation that makes me sort of hypervigilant, high achievement oriented, high energy, all the things that can be a tremendous advantage when you're trying to run a massive pod casting empire or run MTV News, right? But then you have a tendency to sort of stay in that environment and you don't, I didn't have any way to come down except like, oh, we need to have a celebration for the team. Let's go out and have drinks, right? Or I'm going to go home after a wound day about what day where I'm on it, but I'm going to drink.

1:10:24So the coping mechanisms weren't terrifically healthy. Then I go to Facebook. I start traveling. I go through this really high stress thing, front page news around a product we were working on. Then I start traveling the world. than COVID. So you really begin to see like, oh, well, that adds up. And especially if you don't know what to do with it. And you can't talk about it because we don't talk about this stuff for the most part. We're pretty good friends. I've told you a lot of stuff. And I didn't know the degree to which this stuff was acting on me. And I was having heart palpitations. I wasn't sleeping.

1:10:57It was really having an effect on how it was showing up in my own life. And again, once I learned this stuff i was like oh this is like everybody it's like almost everybody so it's one thing to like lay your own soul bear in something like this and like i knew you had like you know explored through all your art your music writing you know you've been you know you're open with yourself too my soul has been bared before i mean but it's a beautiful thing it's another thing to kind of like shine a light on the foibles of loved ones and i know this has come up in the interviews you've done, and it's an unusual subject.

1:11:32But I do have to say I get why people are talking about this, because the first third of the film, there's a hefty chunk with you interviewing your parents individually, and they split up long ago. And it's raw, it's real. It's the kind of conversation that I feel like everybody kind of wishes they could have with their parents, but also doesn't want to ever have with their parents. I don't even know what my question is, but in retrospect, Yeah. I don't know. How do you feel about kind of going through that? What must have been a unbelievably awkward, but powerful experience? I do think that, you know, you said it.

1:12:08Everybody, I think, has this wish to ask the hard questions. And in so many households, that's just verboten. I mean, it took me, you know, my parents probably divorced 35 years ago or something nuts like 40 years ago, you know, 45. So it's been a long time. And it really was, it was like the third rail, you know, you just don't touch it. And yet I would touch it and raise it all the time because it was unsettled. It was unfinished. And I'm a kid. Nobody explains stuff to a kid. And so a kid makes it larger than life. So it was always present. I mean, it's in Mr. Rogers and me. In fact, Fred and I talked about it the day I met Mr.

1:12:45Rogers. He went right for it because he always went for the hard stuff. right and to answer your question it was wildly uncomfortable um my mom lives on the upper west side my dad's in the midwest um it was wildly uncomfortable i blame my brother my filmmaking partner christopher who said i told him this sort of premise i said it's a hero's quest i'm going to go and literally drive to all the places and i'll we'll sort of intercut interviews with experts right that's that's the elevator pitch in a way and uh he goes you know what would really be messed up, you should interview mom and dad. I'm really glad I did.

1:13:19It was obviously very generous of both of them. I think everybody knew that it would provide, hoped that it would provide value and not be prurient, but instead again, be a wee story because I don't think there are families of origin that don't have similar or related dynamics or dysfunction because we inherit this stuff. And until somebody sort of breaks the mold or the model, I don't know how we improve. And, you know, Fred said, this is another one of the great Fred isms, feelings are mentionable and manageable, right? So like, if you don't talk about it, it's certainly not going to change.

1:13:55So much credit to them. It was wildly uncomfortable, but I hung in there because I, I hoped that it would help, you know, and I haven't screened the film yet where somebody doesn't come up and share something of their own life. And that seems to me to be the idea, more of this, you know? Yeah. You mentioned like screening the film, you know, I, I often talk to filmmakers and actors who only kind of discover kind of what their film is about after the fact, whether it's just in the edit room or really even after the film's out through Q and A's and interviews. Yeah. What are you discovering in this home stretch about your film?

1:14:29Maybe that you didn't. That's a great question. That it, you know, I gotta be honest. I think I intuited this, but that it's about all of us. I just, I mean, I'm not, my pitch all along was I'm the center of the bell curve. I'm just a regular person. And we want to believe that these are extraordinary, extreme stories. These are the stories we often watch. You know this, I love, love, love movies. Movies have been a refuge for me in times of chaos. I've always gone into a dark room with a community of strangers to laugh and cry. Love, love, love. you know, that's in the most stressful moments at MTV news, I would sneak out and no one would know where I was.

1:15:08And I'd figured they'd think I'm at a meeting. I was at the movies. So I just think I intuited that like, there's this process of projection when we watch this kind of thing. And that if I was lucky, I could start a conversation like we're having that we could start a conversation like this. Cause I, I know we're not alone, but we feel so alone. Our brain tricks us. We're not alone. We're wildly relational creatures, you know? So, I think that it really is just, it's the story of all of us. I know you to be maybe one of the most compulsively creative people I know. Like, it's music, it's writing, it's films, and it's often a couple of those things at least going on at once.

1:15:52And I know you told me the other day, you have a book coming out next year, which is really exciting. What can we tease, folks? Is it an extrapolation of this? It's a deeper book. If you can believe it, you know, this is a 70 minute documentary. The book will be 300 pages. It's sort of narrower and deeper. It does have, again, me as a runner, but it's really the we story. Much more research, many more voices, more interviews. and it's specifically about men and mental health because men are particularly unwell at this point right now in history and not that women aren't but men are committing suicide at a rate of you know four ex-women you know every 13 and a half minutes deaths of despair addiction incarceration men are not great so it's a deep dive into that amazing so i'll end by just saying like um you know i i felt bad that took me this long to see the movie we've been talking about forever.

1:16:46I was really impressed on so many different fronts. And I think you and your brother did a great job. Also, just like, you know, we like to nerd out about movies. We're texting constantly about the people that are on my podcast, et cetera, and stuff you're seeing. It's really well, it's just so well done. I mean, like, you know, it's, it's, it's, you guys should feel very proud of it just in terms of the craft, the storytelling. And I think it, it really connected with me and I know it's, it's connecting with others. So congratulations, my friend. That means the world to me. I literally, Josh was thinking about big swings.

1:17:20And one of my mantras, and I was thinking about it because of you, because you know, I'm a avid, avid listener based on the amount of text you get from me, you know, an hour after you've dropped an app. And for us, this was a big swing in a whole bunch of different ways. but we also wanted it to be a step up from a production and an execution standpoint, cinematically bearing in mind that the fact is we're a couple of brothers making movies in our free time, trying to just do what we can. So I really, man, that means the world. No mission accomplished. I'll remind folks again, friends and neighbors is the movie.

1:17:58Check it out on the PBS app, but also on VOD everywhere as of a couple hours from now. So check it out. And Benjamin, thanks for coming on the show. You're the best. Thanks, buddy. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pushed to do this by Josh.

1:18:29This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.