Ryan Coogler

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0:48Apply today and earn a welcome offer of$1 ,500 cash back after you spend$50 ,000 in qualifying purchases on your new card within the first six months of card membership. Terms apply. Learn more at go.amex.graphite. How's that heart going to feel on set if and when you get to call action on Denzel in a Black Panther movie? S***. Out of all the 10 billion people on the planet, however a f***ing billion we are now, I'm going to be the happy one, bro. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

1:24Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Say, Confused. Today on the show, a first-time guest, someone we've been chasing for a long while, the great director that is Ryan Coogler. We are talking Black Panther, Creed, Brutefail Station, and of course, Sinners. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in. Thanks for enjoying the podcast, however you're enjoying it. Spotify, YouTube, any podcast platform, whatever it is, I appreciate you guys. Hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. this is a really cool one. This is one that he's been on the list. People always ask me, who are you looking to get on?

1:59He's on the shortlist. He was on the shortlist. Ryan Coogler, in a relatively young career, in about a dozen years, as I think I say to him in this conversation, he's five for five as far as I'm concerned. He has not made a miss as a director. He's so talented. I can't even imagine what the next 10, 20, 30 years look like for Ryan Coogler, But if they look anything like the past dozen, we're in for a treat. We're in for a lot of very special projects. Of course, Ryan has Sinners. That is the topic at hand today. Came out nearly a year ago. I mean, the last March. And it is still going strong. It's gotten re-releases.

2:38And of course, lots of justifiable awards buzz. So a deep dive into a very smart, talented filmmaker, Ryan Coogler. Before we get to the main conversation, I'll remind you guys, as always, hit up our Patreon, patreon.com slash happy said confused. That's where you get early access and bonus materials, discount codes to our live events. By the way, we are starting January 2026 off with a very big, exciting live event at 92nd Street Y, Tom Hiddleston. So get in on that. If you're in town, you know me and Tom. That's that's happy said confused gold right there. So, yeah, get your tickets now. Me and Tom Hiddleston talking, The Night Manager, and more.

3:22Other cool stuff to come soon, too. Okay, in terms of more preamble for Ryan, I don't think I have to say much more, except you guys know what a talent he is. He's not only a director, he's a writer-director. He is truly an auteur. You know, I know that phrase is thrown around a lot, but he lives up to the hype. And to see what he's done with Sinners' totally original work obviously has drawn inspiration from different sources, but it takes something to put it all together the way he did. And what a big swing of a film and some validation that the audience will be there for big swings for original IP if done well.

4:07So I'm so happy Sinners is still in the awards conversation. I think it could get Kugler. I think it's going to be his first directing nomination. Well-deserved. Fingers crossed for that one. And this is a great conversation. As I say, and I hope it's the first of many, he was very kind to me before and after. He apparently is a fan of the podcast, so hopefully we'll have him back because, to be honest, this conversation scratched the surface. There's so much I want to do a deep dive with him on all of his films, but there's some highlights here. There's some fun stuff on all the works in this one.

4:43So if you love film, you're going to love this one. Enjoy me and Ryan Coogler. Way overdue, but I am so, so, so thrilled. Ryan Coogler's unhappy, sad, confused, everybody. I'm standing O, wherever you are. We got him. We got him. How are you, man? I'm honored to be here, bro. Honored to be here. I was excited for this, Josh. So I'm happy to have been able to make it happen. Yeah, we're connecting finally. We were just talking before. We've been circling each other. Look, as far as I'm concerned, man, you're five for five as a filmmaker. Oh, I appreciate that, bro. You've had a hell of a dozen years.

5:22You're off to an amazing start. Talk to me a little bit. I was saying to you before, I've seen you out and about at premieres and stuff for other people's films. Not even your own stuff. I see you out there. You're supporting. And I see you at film festivals. I don't bother you but I see you and I clock you as a real one someone that's there for the movies and the filmmakers is that important to you? I mean you love this shit you live and breathe it. I do man I do I loved it before I was doing it I think that's the thing about our business it's like that for most businesses man but our business everybody starts out a fan you know um and and and that was me i engaged with the the industry as a consumer first you know um and and i don't ever want to lose that you know i never want to i never want to lose that part of myself so when you see me out you know sometimes i'm a part of the community so sometimes it's a friends um premiere that i want to be at you know and support them um uh but i'm also like a fan deep down you know so i'm in constant pursuit of that feeling of having my mind blown in the in the cinema yeah um and and i and i also like to have it blown by before i could have it ruined you know what i mean by a reviewer by word of mouth you know what i'm saying i love that festival experience there's nothing like it is there you you like because we all get whether we like it or not we get influenced by what we see in the ecosystem oh absolutely bro yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah, absolutely.

6:53And that's why, you know, especially today with information and really like people's opinion is so proliferated, you know. And also there's like a, you know, for better or for worse, there's an opinion economy, you know. So the – You good, man? I'm good, bro. I'm good. I was just – Sorry. I'm going to get rid of this final drive icon that's jumping up and down. Oh, good. but we'll just pick up where we were. Yeah, I had this final drive. You want to do share screen on the Black Panther script? Is that something you'd like to do? Just like... Nah, nah. It's nothing there for you yet. But you were saying, look, it's amazing.

7:41I mean, it must blow your mind to be like... I was going to say, to me, I love you talking about the filmmakers you grew up with and some of them who became peers and real influences to you, the late great John Singleton, Spike, who is so important to you. I mean, to me, when I look at the work you're putting out, I see Spike. I see Singleton. I also see Spielberg. I see those guys. I see you as a love child of all these influences. Do you see that? Do you see that in yourself? Oh, yeah, big time, big time. Everybody you just mentioned, I've had a chance to meet, spend time with, tell them how much they mean to me, which is nice.

8:18I'm going to see Spike tonight. I'm giving him an award tonight So I'm going to see him And get to speak to What he means to me I had a chance to I spent time with Chris last night Who's a big Influence and mentor Now Those guys give me advice man You know what I'm saying It's gone beyond influence It's become mentorship And just personally bro like like i grew up i'm a big brother you know like i'm the eldest of three so um you know all of all of my life has been about you know trying to be there for my little brothers and advise and um and help be a source of guidance um but i always wanted that for myself you know what i'm saying like i didn't have i didn't have a big brother i have i had big cousins that were like a lot older than me in a lot of ways that's what sinners is about you know what mean um but but yeah it was something that i that i always yearn for so so it's a blessing in cinema to you know have access to movies that that um that you admire um to be able to to you know i was a big physical media guy you know like so i would watch the movies i'll break them down um you know study them um you know figure out why they made me feel the way that i that i felt on a technical level um and then i was blessed you know to go to film school and get a chance to meet some of these people you know and over time you know i you know had a chance to befriend them you know and and um and and you know they become a part of my life some of them become a part of my life you know what i'm you know what i'm saying like uh yeah um you know like like john before he passed you know like like spike like like like chris and emma um you know rocking where they they become a phone call or a text away.

10:08Um, and it's been, it's been, it's been amazing, but no, I absolutely was influenced by all of the stuff that I was taking in. Do you, do you see, do you see some of them, some of their specific work in, in, in centers? I mean, when I saw it again the other night, I was seeing, I was thinking through the prism of some of these filmmakers and, you know, I, you know, I, I thought of something like, people don't think of Singleton with this film, but like, I thought of Rosewood, I thought of that film. I thought, I thought of, you know spike malcolm x in the way that like he made that's a movie movie spike like leaned in and made like you know big screen like david lean yeah david lean's gave it that treatment no totally it was something that he talked about man like i got and i'll talk to him about it and it was something that made me very emotional because um for spike to make malcolm x the way that he wanted to make it.

11:00And I think that's a very perfect movie. I've spoken about that movie. I think it's, you know, for where I sit, it's maybe like the most important movie about America. You know what I mean? And what he had to do to make that movie, man. Like he had to go fundraise. You know, he had to go to other,

11:27specifically black people. you know, who had capital to get them to get his finishing funds, you know. And for me, I had this opportunity where I didn't have to do that, you know, because of what Spike did and what John did in terms of like paving the way. You know, for me, I didn't have to go big, broad, steal for additional funds. You know, the studio was willing to put that money up for what we were trying to do. And it made me really emotional when I thought about that. what he had to go through to bring a movie that was so important. It's about one of the most important Americans ever in Malcolm X.

12:07I'll make a movie about obviously it has the burden of this group that I think is underrepresented. You know what I mean? The people of the 1930s in the Mississippi Delta. But for us like with this genre element the studio was fully behind us you know what i mean it was like yo yo yo go go make it as epic as possible and i just i just it filled my heart with so much gratitude for for spike and john and you know and mcqueen and fuqua and all the way back to oscar oscar michaud and julie dash and you know um uh well that's so much of what your work's about is also like legacy and passing it on and fathers and sons and like i mean you know yes you know the next generation is going to stand on your shoulders too because you made the billion dollar black panther movie and you made sinners on your own name yeah i can only hope bro like like that that um um that we can pay you know this this fortune for um this good fortune that we've had on this movie and others.

13:18But when you say you see the influences, bro, I'm like, I'm not trying to hide them. You know what I mean?

13:26Because, you know, one thing I learned, we used to do this exercise. We used to do this exercise in film school. It's called the Vagabond Project, where they would get a bunch of first semester film students at SC, and we would all go to the Vagabond Hotel, which was like down the street and we would all take the same script and split up into different crews and we would make them you know we would make the movie and it's like same like like same lines and you couldn't change it you know that was part of the deal you couldn't change it and we would all come back with like six completely different movies you know you know you know i mean like like like it was it was one of those things where where you realize that even when you even you know even if you try to like xerox somebody you know what i'm saying yeah um it ends up being different.

14:11And I've even seen it with filmmakers who remake their own stuff. You know, like Michael Haneke did Funny Games. Yeah, sure. You know, and he just did it. He just did it as a he did it in a different language and just as an older filmmaker, a shot for shot remake. And it still felt completely different. You know, you know what I mean? Like it's one of those things where, you know, you realize, man, you don't got a high of your influences. You know what I mean? You don't got a high of your inspiration. It's going it's going to be your own anyway. You know, you know what I'm saying? Just by the fact that you are you making it um and uh yeah man like i'm always you know before i before i um i make any movie i always start by saying all right what did the what did the guys that i admire when they had to do something similar what did they do you know what i mean like then and then you kind of i kind of throw a little film festival for myself you know you know i'm saying i'm watching the things and um i don't watch anything like for this movie um i have bought um don't look now i bought i bought yeah i bought i bought i bought this i bought this movie the criterion blu-ray blu-ray maybe six years before i knew i was making sinners and i just had it because i heard so much about it you know um and and and it was something i want you know i got a lot of stuff i got a lot of physical media that's like oh i'll get to this one day right no um and it was like i realized i was about to make this this you know this this you know kind of gothic horror movie um and i wanted it to be sensual and i was like you know you pop this hand man blew my fucking mind bro blew my mind bro like like you know what i mean and i'm like i'm like oh like like the but the film has to it has to have a feeling like this you know what i mean specifically the intimacy.

15:57Not just that legendary intimacy scene. That influenced so much. You know what I mean? I haven't talked to Soderbergh about this, but I think it had to have influenced the sex scene in Out of Sight. It had to have. But the fact that this horror movie, this psychological thriller, Supernatural, could contain a moment like that between husband between grieving husband and wife yeah you know and bro i saw that after i had written the scene with smoking any right i read that scene already bro you know what i'm saying and i and i sit and i sit there and watch it i'm like oh man i'm on the same type of time that this that this you know this filmmaker is i ain't ever met i hadn't seen his movie you know i just heard about it you know what i mean right um you pierced the veil you spoke to nick rogue through the veil he was speaking to me bro you know what I'm saying he was speaking to me you know and I think that for me it was like okay it's affirming right you know it's affirming that yo this is possible you know what I mean maybe this movie can contain this much you know you can't be constrained by genre like some people might say it's a vampire movie you can't be intimate you can't be so sexy you can't do like at that point I'm in on the movie I'm in right once you got the audience in it's like alright you got them now what you gonna do with them you know what I mean and I was that was kind of how I felt you know I'm like oh my you know it's maybe the best intimacy scene I've ever seen you know what I'm saying it's in his horror movie I know it's in his movie with blind mediums and shit you know what I'm saying some haunting imagery in that one

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21:12What are the non-negotiables when you went out on the market with this? Because this was sold on you and Michael. And this is not based on any IP, as people know. This is sold on your name. I mean, I can't take it away. I can't take away Zinzi and Seb either. Like, right, like it was, you know, we had, we had, we've done a lot of business since the pandemic on things that I didn't direct, right? Like we did Creed III, which made, you know, almost$300 million globally post pandemic. We did, we did Judas and the Black Messiah, Space Jam. Both of us got caught up in the day and date decision that happened during the pandemic.

21:52But Space Jam still open. It's still open globally, number one. you know, did a lot of good business for Warner Brothers. So, yeah, like, it was me and Mike, but it was also me, Zinzi, and Sev. And I think, like, look, the non-negotiables were, number one was that it would be shot on film. That was a big one. You know, I was probably, out of all of them, that was the one that I think was the most important. you know so tell me this because like you know i'm a cinephile obviously a lot of people listening and watching this are but 96 of the folks that are watching movies out there they walk out of theater they couldn't necessarily tell you the difference oh i definitely saw something digital i definitely saw something in 65 mil why is it so important to you when you know intellectually they're not going to know that maybe emotionally they're going to respond in a different way what's your why is that such a passion for you i think it matters you know like um just just because i can't articulate like like why why why why i like something i think you know i think it still i think it still affects them you know what i mean um and look in today in today's age i think i think look i think shooting someone on film is more uh impactful now than it ever was because there's such a proliferation of digital photography.

23:18You know, the average person in a day is going to interact with, like, I got to imagine, like, hundreds if not thousands of digital images, like, between a phone and a, you know, that's right now, right? We're talking via digital photography, right? It's a tiny sensor in my laptop. You know what I mean? that's you know so so so we so we so used to the digital image that when you see something i was captured with cellular it feels different right like you know i think you know it's it's no it's the same way that like look like this is restaurants serving food right michelin star restaurant serving food every day right right and and you know everybody who's buying a reservation is not a culinary expert you know i'm saying some people who just want to have a nice night out right They want a good meal.

24:04I heard this restaurant was nice. I got some, you know, I'm going to treat myself. I'm going to treat my date. I got an anniversary. And they sit down and they bite into the amuse-bouche. They can't tell you why it's good. You know what I'm saying? They just, you know what I mean? They can't tell you that this guy, that this guy, a level of cumin in it and, you know, like a butter that was flowing in from now. I don't fucking know. You know what I'm saying? Some people can. Some people bite it and they know. You know what I'm saying? like who are culinary artists who engage with that art form on a daily, right?

24:37It's their life's calling, right? They know the why, but most people will know still that there's a difference. They might not know the why or the how. They know the difference. You know what I'm saying? And they feel it in its instinct, right? Yeah. You know, your average person who goes to see six, seven movies a year, they know that when they know that when Chris or Paul or Quentin from frame one they know something's different you know now these are master filmmakers you know what I'm saying like so it's a lot of shit happening there but that medium is playing a role too you know so like it does matter and the other piece is that's not talked about enough is that it's a different working rhythm when you're working in all those formats right like things just become different like you can't like like Creed was a digital movie right we shot Creed digital and I love that movie I love how that movie looked I love Maurice Alberti our cinematographer we worked with on that you know but But bro, I had scenes, I had boxing scenes, bro, where we had six cameras working.

25:56You know, me and my baby brother, Kenan, was my assistant on that. He actually was one of the screenwriters on Creed 3. But we were under the ring. Maurice was in the DIT. You know what I'm saying? But I'm under the ring, bro, with an iPad with six cameras on it. You know what I mean? I'm watching a close-up of Stallone. I'm watching a shot of Michael and Tony's feet. I'm watching. I got a camera mounted at the top of the ceiling. That's just like just straight guy's eye at a ring in case I need that. I got cameras. I'm shooting. Bro, I got people in HBO suits that are in the scene, like as camera operators for HBO.

26:45Bro, them is cameras I'm using. Bro, I can cut to those cameras. You know what I mean? you're using everything you're going full ridley scott more cameras i'm going full ridley scott bro like like and like and like that shit that should just split your mind apart bro like you know you know what i mean because you can't you know and and um and yeah like like the like the in the di t you know that image is actually what is it going to be you know it's very close to what it's going to be like they're doing they're doing a lot of color work you know obviously the Color is going to do that thing later on with more processing power and the projection and everything.

27:22But, you know, like that's very close to what it is. So it's difficult for your cinematographer to not spend a lot of time in a dick, you know, when you're working. And I don't love that, bro. Like I like the DP to be like right. Because I'm next to the camera. That's how I was trained, you know. I just did a director's roundtable You know the great Joaquin Trier He was talking about And bro we from different fucking continents Bro you know what I'm saying But we know like you stand next to that camera You know what I'm saying You're with the actor That's where you gotta be man it's happening once You know what I'm saying You don't want to be 100 feet going to a monitor somewhere You want to be right there you know what I mean and I I like from I like for my for my director of photography to be right there with me you know what I'm saying like that's that's that's what I like you know and um in digital you know you kind of got a rage against the process because that because that process kind of requires them to they got to spend some time in that dick man you know I mean that's just the reality of it you know like um uh and and and the reality of it is when you digital you know more cameras kind of come with it you got to kind of raise against you got to kind of say nah we only doing you only doing one camera you know you know what i'm saying and you know but if it's there it's like oh man maybe it can get the you know maybe it can get the feet you know now i got you know now i can you know so so for me i go back to fruitville bro we had one bro we had one 416 and that and that shit was on rachel morrison's shoulder you know and that was what it was bro You know what I'm saying?

29:05Octavia doing her shit, man. It's one camera. And so I wanted to get back to that. And the actors know, bro. Yeah. When you hear that film running through the camera, man, it's a different level of focus. And there's also a level of alchemy there. When you got digital, you know, there's monitors everywhere. but they hide they 4k monitors so you got video village here you got the the uh you know that all of the artists who doing that intricate work all right so makeup man we need a monitor so we can see the right you know we got them so now makeup got not hair around the money you know so you bro there's nothing brother to like i'll i'll take a walk it's like man it's seven it's seven video village brother who's the director here right yeah bro it's seven video it's seven video villages you know i'm like man god damn what is it you know i'm knowing what that needs to know yeah i mean like that's not i'm good i'm good with them you know i'm good with everybody they work you feel me i'm not i'm not i'm not you're not precious about i guess i'm not like that you feel me but but it does it does become like like like a like a like a drive-in theater right get a multiplex on set yeah like yeah bro like in in in it and And it's all like every, it's all 4K.

30:27It's all HD. You see in every pore. Right. You know what I'm saying? And like, so for me, I'm like, I'm like, bro, like with, with, man, with, with, with, with film, man, people using their eyes, bro. Yeah. It's like, man, go look at the person, man. If you got an issue, you know what I'm saying? Like, it ain't going to be, it ain't going to be in the, it ain't going to be in the monitor. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, don't bring them to their ready, you know, and, and, and watch, you know what I'm saying? Like, like take a look, you know, look at their face, you know? And then I got, like, with Sinners, bro, I got, you know, Miles, man, he fresh out of high school, bro.

31:00He had never seen a film camera before. Right. You know what I got? You turn that thing on, and he's like, yo, what is this magic? You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? Like, and it would really get, it just brought a level of focus and a level of everybody's A game that I really missed, you know? You just got to convince Feige to just break the seal. oh come on that's a that's a that's a podcast for another day okay okay so there's so much i want to cover with you i know we're not going to get to everything but this is your first time on the pod so i do want to cover some stuff going back in the career a little bit and and look obviously you make the huge shift i mean fruit veil is fantastic it's obviously a remarkable piece of work and i want to spoke you at you and mike and then you make that amazing leap to creed and i'm I'm always fascinated by that jump.

31:52I know you were already trying to manifest. Not more than manifest. You were working on Creed. You were selling Cy before that even hit theaters. I think it was in that. It was before we shot Fruitville. I had my first sit down with Stallone. We were in prep. That's crazy. I mean, it was an idea that I had.

32:17It was parallel to Fruitville. you know so so so give me a sense of that period around that time when after fruit veil is out you're maybe about to shoot creed like were you go were you even going up for like studio gigs there were reports at the time that like you met with kathy kennedy about force awakens even like you're a young no no no i didn't i didn't meet i didn't meet about force awakens no i make Yeah, no, no, no, no. That was later on? No, no, no. That was never something that came my way. Like, that was at such a different level, bro, from where I was at. Well, that was like Force Awakens.

32:56Your Force Awakens and Creed came out the same year. Oh, okay. So, you know, and they were talking to, you know, they were talking to like A-list, you know, franchise-level filmmakers. Like, like, like that was, that was beyond where I was, where I was at, you know, at that time. And, and, um, uh, but were you viewing Creed? I know that was a passion project for a number of reasons connected to family, but like, were you also viewing it as kind of, look, it was, it was worthy of doing on its own. Obviously you had a passion for it, but it was also a stepping stone and kind of learning how to handle a bigger budget and a bigger crew and a star like Sly.