Zack Snyder, Vol. III

0:00Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto.

0:43Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. These movies are really personal to me, right? Like Zack Snyder's just like I put my fucking name on that movie, right? Like I literally put my name above the title. It's insanity. Like you want to like punch me in the face. Like I deserve it for that, you know? But because my point is, is that like I wanted people to understand that this to me was like, yeah, it's in my DNA.

1:23It's it's it's it's elemental to the way I think. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

1:34Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. We are taking a big ol' look back. Ten years later, director Zack Snyder and I are going to reminisce about Batman v Superman, Dawn of Justice. Strap in, here we go. Thanks guys, as always, for checking out the podcast, enjoying us on Spotify or YouTube, however you're doing it. If you're new to the podcast, where have you been? Check us out. Go back into the archives. 700 episodes are waiting for you. And remember, hit that subscribe button to enjoy all we do over here. We've done a bunch of these kind of reunion anniversary episodes.

2:09Did one for Galaxy Quest with Sam Rockwell and Justin Long. One with Francis Lawrence and Keanu Reeves for Constantine. I love doing these things. And I hit up Zach, Mr. Snyder, to talk about this one. And he was game. And we had a great chat. This is really, for comic book heads, for Zack Snyder heads, this is going to be a big old treat for you. Before we get to that, quick reminder, as always, if you want more of what I do, bonus materials, early access, all that kind of fun stuff, patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused. We do a lot of live events here in New York and sometimes elsewhere. Discount codes to that, early access to that.

2:45All our podcast episodes go up early over there. Announcements of guests go up there first. Lots of cool stuff. So if you like what I do, this helps us make more of what we do. Patreon.com slash happy, sad, confused. Okay, so this is a real treat. Zack Snyder's not on the publicity trail. This is a one-off. This is something he did because he wanted to talk with me about this. And yeah, can you believe it? It's been 10 years, almost to the day. As of like, I think about a week or so, week or two from now, would be the 10th anniversary exactly of Batman v Superman, Dawn of Justice. You have to say the whole title.

3:18and it's you know it's like all of Zach's work works a controversial title in some ways a film that has lovers and haters it's a big swing it came off of Man of Steel which was pretty hugely celebrated but even that one had you know the end controversy about Superman killing Zod all the death and destruction at the end of that film and this one he kind of doubled down and went really really dark, really serious, casting Ben Affleck as Batman, casting Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor, catching flack for the Martha of it all. And we talk about all of it in this conversation. And yes, we talk about a little bit about the Justice League and the Snyder Cut and the ever-present call for more of Zack to do stuff in the DC universe and whether that could ever even possibly happen.

4:08And his answer might indeed surprise you. So always love chatting with Zach. It's a pleasure, a privilege that he's been on the show a bunch. And like I said, if you guys love comic book movies, Zach's movies, this is a real treat. So without any further ado, please enjoy this chat. 10th anniversary time, Batman v Superman with me and Zach Snyder. Well, it's always a pleasure to have Zach Snyder on Happy, Sad, Confused. But especially today, Hey, Zach, we are celebrating. Ten years have gone by in a flash. We're looking back at Batman v Superman. Welcome back to the pod and congratulations on ten years, man.

4:45Good to see you. Oh, wow. I know it's crazy, right? Ten years. How did that happen? How did it happen? But thanks for having me. This is fun. Of course. I love this kind of thing. This is also, by the way, I was noticing today, I got a few emails noting that I think today or this week is the 40th anniversary of The Dark Knight Returns. So this is like, it's all, it's all coming together. It's all perfect. Yeah, no, no. It's a very, yeah, I guess right around March, which is my birthday, you know, we had this tradition of, I think it was, literally got set, maybe it was on, was it on Dawn of the Dead?

5:23I don't remember, but for sure on 300. And we did these March releases and we were, and before that wasn't a date. people would be like, you can't release a movie in March. There's nothing, no movies do well in March. And then after 300, we were just like, March is our date, let's go. Totally. So I have a few movies I've released in March. Before we get into this movie in particular, I mean, Dark Knight Returns is obviously such an important marker for you and influences this film in a huge way. Doing the math, when that comic came out, that graphic novel came out, you must've been about 20, I assume in school.

5:59Do you remember when Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns came out and what it did for you? Yeah, I remember it well because it was, you know, we were pretty much in the Watchmen Dark Knight era had really, like, struck pop culture and I guess the comic book community, you know, more specifically, of course. But for me, as, you know, on that sort of quest to find the thing that would spark my imagination and, you know, when you're at that age, you're just like sort of right into college and you're just kind of looking at storytelling at if you're like a junkie for visuals like i am you know something so rare the air where those things combine you know like these striking images with um you know this story that is mythological and you know i think the funny thing about comic books is that you know people you know they talk about you know greek mythology certain mythologies and everyone's like oh that's really cool like you know i can kind of relate to it the thing about the comic book mythology it's so personal you know what i mean to someone who likes comic books that i think you know dark knight returns for me anyway was like it felt like it was written specifically for me and had you know with mythology in general like you know whatever when you're looking at ancient mythology you really feel like you're just joining a giant river that you're flowing into yourself and you're like sort of in you know you're looking around it's a pretty wide river but it's like you're going with the flow it feels awesome it's like very natural where i feel like the dark night returns is like someone wrote your myth and like specifically that that was amazing like you know you have this seminal comic book that really profoundly affects you but with no way of expressing it don't i mean there's no at that point in my life there was no batman fighting superman movie that you could possibly, in my wildest dreams, could be a reality, right?

8:13So it laid dormant in my, I had it. It was on my coffee table, on my desk, wherever I was, I had it. And so, you know, listen, I'll be 100 % honest. I would still make The Dark Knight Returns as a film if that opportunity arose. because to me it's like the yes did I steal or borrow or homage I guess as much as I could within the context of the mythology that I was creating yes but the thing about Dark Knight Returns is it is a closed loop of like awesomeness that owes nothing to anything except for a a masterful deconstruction of gods that we all grew up with. And I think that that, and really you see that in BVS.

9:09BVS is for me, you know, damn the like, what the world would think. I was founded, determined to challenge my gods and find out if they were, could handle it. So let's contextualize a little bit about where BVS came out of. So Man of Steel comes out. It's a huge success. It's$870 million. To put that in context, folks, that's more than – 873 million rather is what BVS made, which is more than the most recent Batman movie. It's more than, with all due respect, the James Gunn Superman. I love it, but it made more than that. It was a big success. It's critically a divided film. It remains that to this day, BVS.

9:57Of course. When you think back to the reception, was it what you were expecting? Did it surprise you? Give me a sense of where you were at when it came out. Yeah, and also, like, if you, you know, it is whatever, $890 million or whatever it is, unadjusted. Like, if you do any kind of inflationary adjustment for that movie, it's like really exactly a billion-dollar movie. So it is a, in retrospect, I mean, listen, this is also, I think this movie also was the birth in a lot of ways for the general public. I think more of the director cut concept for, as it pertains to my films and the way I make movies.

10:52because no director's cut for Man of Steel. Just wasn't that kind of movie. Like we just went straight ahead. Watchmen, of course, I think famously has two director's cuts.

11:11Because, you know, a lot of what was dictating the length of those movies was IMAX. because IMAX at the time, the film palettes were a certain size and the movie could only be, I think, two hours and 28 minutes or two hours and whatever. Whatever Watchmen is, the theatrical release of Watchmen is. You were pushing to the very edge of it. They had told me if the room was humid, the film would fall off, right? because the moisture of the film laying against the other piece of film, if it was moist, it wouldn't be as tight. And so the film would fall off. So that's literally the length. And so there was a lot of stuff that, and I wasn't going to sacrifice my iMatch release, and so there was a lot of stuff that I wanted in Watchmen because I was such a fanatic for the material.

12:08And I think, and so the BDS, the director's cut of, of PBS, I think is really the movie that I was trying to make. You know, I think if you watch that movie, you really, I think, you know, objectively it's, it's a, it's a better movie than the movie that was theatrically released. That's my, that's my feeling. I think it's generally most people's feelings too. And I don't, I still love the theatrical release and I don't have, I'm not mad at it. I just think that the real intent that Chris Terrio and I had was, is in the director's cut. You see it. We'll be right back with more Happy, Sad, Confused.

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15:18So can you give me a sense of the origins of BVS? So you're making Man of Steel. If I have my timeline correct, you famously announced BVS at that amazing Comic-Con event when you bring out Harry Lennox. And that's just about a month after Man of Steel comes out. So obviously you were thinking about what you were going to do next in production, in post. Yes. We were talking about the sequel. We felt we were very happy with what had happened with Man of Steel as far as its success. and, you know, obviously starting a franchise and, you know, how we were going to move forward. And, you know, that concept, I think, of introducing this character in this sort of new universe still, you know, with homage and with respect to what Chris had done with his Dark Knight trilogy.

16:15I think that was kind of our way forward. You know?

16:23And so the landscape was very, we were very excited. And I think what happened was when we had this sequence where Superman flies into space and hits that satellite. And you see the Wayne Enterprises logo on it. And frankly, you see the LexCorp logo on the truck, the gas truck that he kicks. so we knew from early days that we would want to build out a universe where um all these things could exist in a in a in a complete singular mythology that could encapsulate green lanterns dark side the whole thing you know right wonder woman and so and it was kind of like we had originally thought like how are we going to maybe at the end of this next movie we could have a scene where batman just appears right like he gets uh like as a teaser he gets a um i don't know like a fedex with a piece of kryptonite in it or something right like that's the end you know it and it's like John or some glowing green inside and like, you know, we thought that could be cool.

17:49The problem was once you say out loud, once you say out loud, like maybe Batman's in the movie, right? It's a really, it's a difficult thing to put that, um, that toothpaste back in the, in the toothpaste. Right. Let me set aside this beautiful, gorgeous character one more movie. It's too tempting. It's literally impossible. And so, and with my extreme fondness for The Dark Knight Returns, I found myself going like, look, you know, we, you can't, we can't not do it, right? And as a way to introduce or to begin the conversation that there are other heroes in the world, other extraordinary heroes, Bruce Wayne is the obvious, the world's greatest detective, is the obvious hinge pin to us finding these other extraordinary characters.

19:01And traditionally in the comics, he is that. He is kind of the leader of the Justice League. He brings the team together as he does in your film. And canonically, it all makes sense. So you never went down a real serious road of a solo Superman movie pretty early on when you and Chris and David Gloyer. We did. We did. We absolutely did. And we were, our plan was, you know, my plan was always to, was to hopefully, you know, have this. Once we sort of established this timeline, we could branch off and go do this Brainiac movie that would have like a Superman Brainiac, like, you know, solo concept.

19:44but the Justice League and in the end in my my opinion is that in the end the Justice League full Justice League saga is a Superman story regardless of how much Batman plays into it in the end it's a Superman feel like in the end when it's all said and done Superman is the survivor he is the savior he it without him there's nothing you know it is a superman centric universe though i would say batman is the sacrifice that we need to make to have that world um yeah and so that was always uh that was always the way we thought about it and so yeah and so you know to answer your question, there was this idea that a Superman film couldn't exist without what we're doing or would exist instead of.

20:47I never really thought about it in those terms. I always thought it was like that we were just making a 14-hour movie. And you told me before that, obviously Chris brought you in. Chris, no one brings you in initially. And there is a very, very brief conversation of like, would it even make sense to continue with his Batman in this universe? But I guess the deal breaker, I mean, like, I guess if Bale had still been the Batman at the end of Dark Knight Rises, maybe you seriously consider it. But the other Batman, the Joseph Gordon-Levitt, that's not as clean a story for you. I believe that's 100 % correct, And though I love that concept, Joseph, I think, is an amazing actor.

21:35And it's a cool thing. But I don't think it was for me to flesh that out. Where, yeah, I think if Bale had stayed, if it had ended with Christian Bale standing on a building overlooking Gotham, with silhouetted by the lights of Gotham, that's a serious conversation. there. He's not in Italy, retired, drinking wine and relaxing. If he is a current crime fighter, then I think then those universes could have mixed, you know. And maybe if Chris had really thought that that was a potential thing, he might have looked at it differently. But I don't know that. We never really talked about it. So once you decide, okay, it's the Batman-Superman conflict at the heart, and you are going to start building towards a Justice League, was it always intent from the beginning, like Wonder Woman's going to be in there.

22:29We're going to tease Cyborg. We're going to tease Aquaman. Because I guess the broader context is also Marvel, meanwhile, has Avengers. They're succeeding with their team movie. I don't know if there's pressure at that point to accelerate to a team movie or not. Were you feeling that? Or did you, in retrospect, are you happy with the pace you were moving at? Or would you have slow played it a little more? it's a good question i mean my knee jerk is that i didn't feel the pressure but i can't 100 say that's true just because the studio was very excited about you know dawn of justice was important you know in the title you know where for me it was like i didn't really need it but that was a negotiation that was a conversation that we had to kind of tease this justice league idea um and yeah i think i think there might have been although i will say my thing was the trilogy you know or the trinity sorry the trilogy the trinity like is is really iconic you know and i think that dc the one thing dc has that say marvel doesn't have or whatever any other comic book it has batman superman and wonderful right yeah it's literally it has the three logos right like those logos don't need names like you don't have to tell people who they are you know like you can show those three logos and it's like mcdonald's you know target and freaking coca-cola like it's like literally you know the three these ike like they're just massive of the IP, like beyond IP.

24:10You know, they're like, if you look at that Comic-Con footage, that announcement, the crowd goes insane, just based not only in the dialogue, but just those two emblems on top of each other. You don't have to say another word. It's just. No, you don't have to say another word. Yeah. And I think that that, you know, there's, and I really loved that. I loved the idea that I would have a scene, a shot in the film where those three characters were standing together facing off against something, right? You know, that's why. And so, really, the work is like, what are they fighting? What could they possibly be fighting?

24:50You know? Those three are powerful. That's a powerful trio, right? Yeah. So how did that equal? Was that pretty early on in the process of you and Chris Terrio cracking that? That was going to be Luther, was going to be our antagonist, but Doomsday was going to be his vessel? His child, yeah, his creation, yeah. Sort of using all the stuff that we had on hand, you know. We knew that in Kryptonian mythology, there was Doomsday had cracked the moon there and it kind of like he was around. So it didn't feel like a crazy leap. and he really and you know famously had already killed superman in the comics um and so he felt like the right guy he he to me it was like a credible threat you know right i feel like the problem with um superman he's not a problem it's amazing is that you have to give him credible threats and the two credible threats are dark side and doomsday right everyone else is like a problem that he has to work out right do you believe that there's real jeopardy at the end of the day at the end of the day superman will defeat lex luther there's no two ways about it there i mean it's fine it's cool it creates drama but there's no way you're going to kill Superman that's impossible and I was like no we're gonna kill Superman at the end of this movie like that's how serious of a threat it is now we also knew that because it was a birth and resurrection story obviously I'm not we're not lowering him off the cross by accident you know This is not like a, it's not like a, you know, the Jesus metaphors are not like, oh, they really went vaguely with that.

26:57That was like, really? I don't know. You know, it's a real reach, you know, to kind of say that's what's happening. I just felt like that was an important, you know, important, you know, mythological touchstone that if you were avoiding that, you were sort of avoiding the why. a little bit of Superman. You were kind of like, you were kowtowing to some sort of like, I don't know what, public pressure or like non-commercialization. I don't know what, but you're just, you're pussy now really, let's be honest. Yeah, instead you leaned in. You said, we're going to go. Yeah, I leaned in 100. But by the way, it's why I thought it was cool, why I thought it was interesting.

27:40Because it's that exact iconology that makes it more than a comic book, that makes it mythological but if you if you deny the sort of origins and the and the what superman is and what he represents to culture then you know you're just it's just might as well be a popcorn bubble gum bullshit thing you know you really have to it to me it's like got real teeth and that's what i was always after you know and i think that was the whole deconstruction problem you know i think in retrospect i think people they don't like their heroes deconstructed necessarily you know they go to the movies to have their heroes right they want reassurance they want something reassurance that they're there now now i would say that in the end i am a hero's friend but that doesn't mean that I don't want to I want to make sure that your devotion to those heroes has a bedrock of of of testing that allows you to trust them in the end and that they are not manufactured by a focus group or some fake bullshit or like the toy makers or you know a lot whatever you know all the things like it's literally a focus group whatever it is you know like i i personally think that these movies are really personal to me right like zach snyder's justice like i put my fucking name on that movie right like i literally put my name above the title it's insanity right like you want to like punch me in the face like i deserve it for that you know But because my point is, is that like I wanted people to understand that this shit to me was like, yeah, it's in my DNA.

29:48It's it's it's it's elemental to the way I think. And and so so Batman versus Superman, I think to go back to this sort of deconstruction concept, you know, I've talked about it before. But like, I just feel like the thing that Miller does so well in Dark Knight Returns is he literally does that. It's that he literally is challenging the notion of Batman from the beginning. Like, what what is his deal? Like, why is he in the same way that Watchmen does? But like, you know, like it to me, like one of the great bits in Watchmen is when when when Dan can't get it up and he needs to like go do some some some superhero.

30:33They need to get in their fetishized costumes and go save some people so they can fuck like that. Like legitimately like that's that's in the movie. That is what happens. They they need to get aroused by their fetish. and I think that Frank, of course, was aware of that aspect of, you know, the superhero genre, but instead of that, like he took it like one step further, like one step deeper psychologically to really question instead of, and it happens in Watchmen, but really the why of Bruce Wayne's existence, like his life is not worth living, you know, unless he's Batman in the end, you know, like the reigns of baptism, you know, I'm born again.

31:18Like he's not, he's not, um, you know, he's not, uh, complete unless he's like, he thinks he's over it. Like, I don't need the suit, you know, I don't need that life, but like, I'd rather be dead really in the end is what is, what is the reality is. But anyway, so that really informed for me, like this, this, this Bruce Wayne, this Batman, and this Superman. You know, because I always, obviously, even just what I was saying about how I view Superman, his death and resurrection is a pretty high bar as far as the other death and resurrections that I'm referencing. And so, you know, Batman's always going to be supporting to that.

32:04You know what I mean? Like, it's that. You know, if you're like, if you can fly, if you can like transcend death, you are a, you know, a mortal guy like Bruce Wayne, who's like drinks too much and might be a sex addict. That guy's always going to be a little bit behind. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, his therapy sessions. I can't compete with this guy. This guy's flying. Can't compete with him at all. And by the way, I shouldn't, I got to stop trying. Exactly, exactly. Sorry about the rant. That was quite a rant there. No, it was great. It was great. More Happy Say Confused coming up.

32:53Hey, Chicago. Class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up. It shows off. First day fits. Handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Croc store today. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto.

33:35bundling just another way to save with the personal price plan prices are based on rating plans that vary by state coverage options are selected by the customer availability amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state so we've talked about the casting i know ben correct me if i'm wrong affleck comes up pretty early on in your in your mind it's like it's like a little convincing uh of ben he wanted to kind of like know what he was doing and how this batman was going to be different. You've told me that Matthias Schoenerts was kind of your backup in a way, like if Ben didn't happen.