In short
The episode is a conversation with filmmaker Zack Snyder at the Toronto International Film Festival, right after the premiere of his independently financed passion project The Last Photograph. Snyder discusses how the film’s reception is predictably polarized, contrasting Netflix-era “bubble” discourse with being “in the trenches” at a live festival. He says the film was made because he wanted to test whether he could create a tiny-scale movie in a giant-cinema ecosystem.
Key claims
The Last Photograph is thematically the same story it’s been for years—two men on a journey (one a lost-soul photographer seeking purpose; one driven by redemption/revenge after family tragedy). He describes it as violent and sexually explicit, and says it’s self-aware “kitsch” rather than shallow provocation.
Notable examples
he cites a Berlin Film Festival backlash over 300 being labeled “fascist,” and a review that allegedly said “fuck you, Zack Snyder… I want to kill you.” He also previews future projects: Escape from New York (directing), a 300 prequel TV series, and a limited-series adaptation of Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead.
Guests
Zack Snyder is the sole guest; Josh hosts.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOA Passion Project: The Last Photograph
0:00 to 0:38
Discussion about Zack Snyder's new film and his approach to filmmaking.
“Insurance isn't one-size-fits-all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit.”
A Passion Project: The Last Photograph
1:16 to 2:14
Discussion about Zack Snyder's new film and his approach to filmmaking.
“Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused.”
The Nature of Criticism and Audience Reception
2:14 to 3:56
Zack reflects on the divisive nature of his films and audience reactions.
“honest to a fault, perhaps, for his reputation, which can get him into trouble, I guess, just in terms of just how honest he is about criticism and intention and all of that.”
The Production Journey of The Last Photograph
3:56 to 4:51
Zack shares insights on the lengthy development and production of his film.
“Luckily we had some backup audio recording.”
Themes and Influences in The Last Photograph
4:51 to 5:42
Exploration of thematic elements and influences in Zack's latest film.
“look when you can get Gary Oldman and Zack Snyder at a film festival you do it.”
Filmmaking Techniques and Personal Involvement
5:42 to 14:03
Zack discusses his hands-on approach to cinematography and directing.
“And I'm not sure when you'll be able to see the last photograph.”
The Intimacy of Filmmaking
14:03 to 18:08
Zack Snyder discusses the unique experience of directing and being intimately involved in every shot of his films.
“It's much more intimate and I really kind of, I'm more interested in the movie, you know, like because I'm kind of like responsible for every single shot.”
Experimenting with Film Techniques
18:08 to 18:46
Snyder reflects on making films with minimal resources, emphasizing creativity over high budgets.
Teaching Film with iPhone
18:46 to 20:17
Snyder shares his experiences teaching film using iPhones and the importance of hands-on practice.
“How satisfying is it when you land that one or two pieces in your closet that you know you can just go to over and over again?”
Teaching Film with iPhone
20:24 to 22:04
Snyder shares his experiences teaching film using iPhones and the importance of hands-on practice.
“That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash happy sad.”
Show all 22 chapters
Teaching Film with iPhone
22:23 to 22:43
Snyder shares his experiences teaching film using iPhones and the importance of hands-on practice.
“You'll be asked how you heard about them.”
Divisive Reactions to Snyder's Films
23:23 to 28:00
Snyder discusses the mixed reactions to his films and the themes of masculinity and relationships in his work.
“It's not really it's not that if you if you if if after you see this, you're like, well, I got to see that Zack Snyder movie.”
Character Reflections in Relationships
28:00 to 30:14
Exploring how past relationships shape our perceptions of others.
“Or do you remember the bits of the person that affected you in certain ways and made you sad or happy or whatever?”
The Evolution of Escape from New York
30:14 to 34:43
Discussing the approach and insights related to the remake of a classic film.
“So can I ask you some other things going off of where you're at?”
Revisiting Iconic Films and Characters
34:53 to 39:44
Zack Snyder reflects on his past films and their influence on current projects.
“From the parents behind Law & Order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy.”
The Journey of Comic Book Adaptations
39:44 to 42:06
Discussing the challenges and creativity involved in adapting comic books to film.
“Are any of the past, I mean you've kind of revisited all the works in different ways I feel like.”
Reflecting on Past Projects and Leaving the Universe
42:06 to 44:40
Zack Snyder discusses his reflections on past projects and the moment he knew his time in the DC universe was over.
“Like, are you consuming film, comics, anything?”
The Fountainhead and Its Adaptation
44:40 to 46:53
Snyder shares his long-standing interest in adapting 'The Fountainhead' and the challenges he's faced in bringing it to life.
“on my where it says directed by zach snyder yeah there is a homeless person that has a i think have a thing that says, I tried or something like that.”
The Status of Brawler and Blood and Ashes
46:53 to 50:05
Discussion on the current status of Snyder's projects, including 'Brawler' and 'Blood and Ashes', and his creative process.
“I really feel like it's a good time for Fountainhead.”
AI in Filmmaking: Perspectives and Concerns
50:05 to 53:19
Snyder shares his views on AI in cinema, emphasizing the importance of human creativity in filmmaking.
“So could you still make that as the not 300?”
Celebrating the Craft of Filmmaking
53:19 to 55:52
Zack Snyder discusses the value of handmade artistry in films and the resurgence of cinema experiences.
“I don't know visual effects or what's happening over here, but as long as it's presented by a person to other people.”
Justice League vs. BVS: The Ultimate Debate
56:00 to 56:54
A lively discussion comparing Zack Snyder's Justice League to Batman v Superman.
“And now for all the marbles, BVS versus Justice League.”
Transcript
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1:16Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Coming at you once again from the Toronto International Film Festival. this time with the one and only Zack Snyder. Hey guys, thanks as always for checking out the podcast. Remember to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, on Spotify, on whatever podcast platform you are using. This is our second episode coming at you out of Toronto. If you haven't caught up with our Gary Oldman conversation that I recorded in front of a live audience, please do so. An absolute legend and a great, great chat. This is kind of like, I mean, a really interesting companion piece.
1:49Who would have expected, of all filmmakers, Zack Snyder to come to a film festival with an independent film? But that is where he is at. This is a passion project he is talking about. It is his new film, The Last Photograph. And look, all props to Zack, who is, of course, a regular on Happy, Sad, Confused. This is his fourth time on the show. And he is always a great conversation. honest to a fault, perhaps, for his reputation, which can get him into trouble, I guess, just in terms of just how honest he is about criticism and intention and all of that. He is, as we all know, a lightning rod. Always has been, always will be.
2:33That is the nature. And to contextualize this a little bit, if you haven't seen the headlines, His film is called The Last Photograph. It is kind of a down and dirty Zack Snyder film. He DP'd himself. He was the camera operator, independently financed. This is a passion project that's been in the works for over two decades. Tells the story of two men, one kind of lost soul photographer, one who is out for some kind of redemption, revenge after a horrible tragedy befalls some of his family members. and they kind of go on this like heart of darkness, apocalypse now-esque adventure journey. It is violent.
3:12It is sexual. It is divisive as all Zack Snyder films are. As we recorded our conversation, it was just hours after the big premiere the night before at Toronto. First time it's ever been seen in front of an audience. I was there. And look, the reviews are all over the place. And we talk about it in this conversation. Look it up for yourself. It is loved by the Snyderheads. It is hated by critics. Somewhere in between it falls. I respect Zach for who he is and the way he carries himself. And look, some of his films are more for me than others, but I do respect always him being true to himself.
3:51And that certainly is what the last photograph is. We don't know where this is going to end up yet as we record this. It is up for sale, for distribution. I'm sure it will land somewhere. It will find an appropriate home. but this is an interesting conversation because it kind of captures a moment in time as Zach was literally like still like reading the reviews and the reception and kind of laughing about you know the divisiveness of it all but also knowing this kind of goes with the territory for him quick note on the production of this this was a shot here in my my sad little hotel room if you're watching this in Toronto we unfortunately had some major audio problems that we didn't discover until afterwards.
4:28Luckily we had some backup audio recording. I don't even actually know the quality of it as I record this intro. I hope it's not too crappy but I know it will be usable. I know it will be good enough to listen to but my apologies because it's it's certainly not up to our usual standards here at Happy Say Confused and don't worry the aesthetic will improve once I get back home to New York and we're back in the home studio I promise you but look when you can get Gary Oldman and Zack Snyder at a film festival you do it. remember as always check out our Patreon patreon.com slash happy confused for early access discount codes access to our live events all sorts of fun stuff I should also mention in this conversation while we talk a lot about Last Photograph of course we talk about other things we talk about 300 and its 20th anniversary we talk about the 300 prequel series that he's working on about Escape from New York which he's going to be directing I think next we talk about some superhero stuff needless to say Of course we do.
5:26This will, as always, generate headlines. I'm sure I always appreciate Zach's willingness to be, as I said, frank and open and good humored and good natured. He is he's always welcome on this podcast. So I know you guys are going to dig this. Check it out. And I'm not sure when you'll be able to see the last photograph. But now you'll know a little bit more about what all the fuss is about after this conversation. Enjoy. Zach, should we do this? Let's go. Here we go. We're in Toronto, Volume 4 of Happy Second Feud with Zack Snyder. That's good to see you, man. It's good to see you. Thanks for having me this, what day is it?
6:01Monday morning. It's a lot. Look, you're coming off of hours after your world premiere of The Last Photograph. I was there. Congratulations. Thank you. Look, it's a lot to process any kind of debut. Putting yourself out there is always a big thing. And this is a new experience for a number of reasons we'll get to. Just first of all, how are you feeling, man? I feel good. I feel good actually. I feel good. I think that the it's it's I guess you know at this point like the predictable discourse around my my what I do I guess is very it's like a palatable thing like the lines are clearly drawn you know which I think is really interesting and I think in a lot of ways maybe because of Netflix and because you know the films on Netflix are a little bit kind of like they exist in a bubble.
6:52They're kind of impenetrable. You could talk about them all day and it doesn't make a difference. It's an ecosystem that feeds on itself. People don't really... When you go on Netflix, you go, oh, what's this? It's a space movie, Rebel Moon, Charlie, all that. There's no... It's an easy ball. It's just like, yeah, it is what it is. Yeah, sure, that's fine.
7:14But it's just interesting to sort of be in the trenches with a movie, especially a movie like this. It's kind of tiny. And, you know, we kind of, it's a lot of, yes, it's a tone poem. And so, yeah, that description right there is going to evoke. Right. Like, oh, here's pretentious Zach. He's going. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well, it's also the context, like to set the scene. We're at the Toronto International Film Festival. Sure. You are not like historically the film festival guy. You are like. I've never been to a film festival before. Well, I was at a film festival. We were into the, we took 300.
7:53You're familiar with that movie? I've heard of it, yeah. Yeah, we took the movie, we took 300 to... It's about three, it's not a math movie. It's a, it's a... Okay, good to that. It's a beautiful mind prequel. Yeah, I know. But we took that to the Berlin Film Festival. And there was a huge, it kind of actually turned me off at the film festivals because there was a massive like there was like this whole thing about like the movies like fascist and right and and there's like everybody walked out and booed the movie and it was like this huge thing we were like ah what the fuck happened like i test screening everyone's loving it and then all of a sudden literally we took it and it was like just a complete disaster we thought like the movie was doa and um we had a press conference and all the like german press was asking me why what's it like to be a fascist filmmaker.
8:48And I was just like, what, what, what has happened? I remember one of the great comments was, are you pro-gay or pro NRA? That was the choice. Those are my two. And I go, look, I gotta be honest. I'm a little bit of both.
9:06Do you feel like exposed when you're like at a premiere and like something, especially like this, that is a passion project. That is something that you did on your own terms. Like, You know, the truth is it's constant. It's not, you know, it's a constant. The discourse around the movies and the choices and, you know, whether it be Justice League or anything I'm doing, the discourse is like for me is day on the daily. So it's. So you're a little immune to it, maybe. I'm slightly immune to it, but it's interesting. I'm fascinated by it in some ways, too. Like, I saw this one review of the movie was like, fuck you, Zack Snyder.
9:46I want to kill you. And yet you still came to my interview. And I thought that was, I was like, you know what? That's awesome. Haven't seen the movie yet. Preemptive. Preemptive. Fuck you, Zack Snyder. I was like, okay, wow. That's like, at least that's like you feel something. You know, you could, you could say a lot about my movies, But, you know, I can't, I don't think like, you know, you get a lot of like kind of, Eh, yeah, it was all right. It was whatever. I don't really remember it, to be honest. You know, I think that that, and that's, I mean, I can't, that's my, that's what I'm trying to do, I guess.
10:23Yeah. Do you, I mean, so this one to set up a little bit of like where we are and how we got here, you've been working on this on and off for 20 plus years with The Auto Writer. Yeah. What kept you coming back to it? It's it's does strike me that like you're in the era of like your passion projects, whether it's like the fame Snyder cut, whether it's Rebel Moon, which was kind of like on and off for years. Sure. And now here, this one, was this kind of more of like just circumstance, like you had a Yeah, literally, I mean, literally, we've had it just sort of set up and ready to go for a long, long time.
10:54And how to do it was always the question. You know, we I think I think the budget when we had a budget of Warner Bros was like$50 million. Right. Right. And so I was like, no, I mean, not that I was like, no, we can't do it for that much, but it was like an in-between movie. Right. Right. It's not like a blockbuster, but it's not like a low budget movie. It's kind of that weird middle movie. And I was like, I just don't I don't feel like it's ready. But and then we had other director who was going to do the movie. We had other stars, you know, along the way. It was Christian and Sean Penn. Yeah.
11:28Right. And so it was like and then, you know, just recently you know i was gonna do the ufc movie and then we kind of put that on hold and then as soon as that got put on hold i was like oh like i have a little window like let's i'm not gonna do nothing yeah and so we were like let's just go make last photograph so we cobbled together a tiny amount of money and went and shot it and um so it was like it's kind of like a last second decision and kind of did a little bit on a lark and um yeah so it was just fun to do and it was fun to go shoot with all my friends and just kind of, you know, be really like it'd be really raw and just, you know, take the camera and see what you can do.
12:10It does feel like, like just thematically, it is like all the potpourri that is you, like it is your love of photography. It has like, look, you have a good damaged man. You got two in this one. Yeah. One's kind of like searching for revenge. One's kind of a lost soul that just kind of like is looking for a purpose in life. Yeah, sort of like one's kind of been devoured by images. One's been kind of had images fuck them up, which I feel like is kind of like, I like that as a character. And look, we've talked about your influences over the years. You got to feel Apocalypse now watching this, like they're down the river.
12:44Oh yeah, no, it's very Conradian in its descriptive. Yeah, I think so. So did this evolve a lot or is it essentially kind of like, I know the setting changed over the years, but is it - It's essentially, I think it's thematically the same story. Yeah. I mean, it's essentially always been these two guys like going, we always talked about it. Like you almost, they're traveling like back in time, right. In some ways as they travel into the movie. Yeah. And approach wise, I mean, like, it's so funny to hear you talk about like, you know, we wanted to do this like small movie, like by the standards of like an indie filmmaker, this would be their biggest movie by an exponential rep, like, you know, like factor.
13:21It's got scale, it feels big, it's got helicopters and giant action. Did it feel... I mean, I guess this is for you probably smallest since dawn of the day. No, the smallest ever by so much. I can't tell you what the budget was right now. That will be revealed at some point. Like are you using your own equipment? Like how are you finding the corners that come like to... I'm just doing all the jobs. That's how I did it. DP, camera off like a lot of time. that was the camera operator for every shot you're literally holding the camera every single shot yeah literally for the if you look on my instagram there's a really good there's a lot of good pictures there's that one picture that really i think tells the story of the movie i could we can you know i don't know how the podcast we can put it like this is it right here and i yeah anyway it's like me holding the camera and i and stuart's like crying when he's holding the sort of the chief of the of the indigenous guy in the in the rainforest it and like you look at that shot and it's like me in an apple box and i'm just like sitting on the apple box pointing out and it's like that's pretty much the whole way the movie was made in a lot of ways so um and what does that do for you like you've you've dp'd the last few films but being like i mean being the camera off like you're in it i mean obviously you're always in it as the director it's it i I enjoy it.
14:43I got to be honest. I like it much more. It's like much less tedious, weirdly. It's much more intimate and I really kind of, I'm more interested in the movie, you know, like because I'm kind of like responsible for every single shot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
15:05Yeah. Yeah. asking kind of like the toll it takes on you and your actors and like by the time you're like on set though it sounds like you're just like you know you've dealt with all that shit and then you're just about getting the shots like and we're also just like you know we're kind of having a good time like as soon as like we're not rolling we're like laughing it's like ridiculous and like those guys are so lovely to be around yeah you know so like when i'm not like when they're not like crying and like fighting and i say cut they're like oh my god that's hilarious okay you know we should do is blah blah blah tell story this that okay ready let's shoot again you know so it's a very it's just a real like um it's just like a lovely experience you know does it feel so when you talked about how like this is kind of like more about the circumstance of having the whole in the schedule it's not like is it because i think a lot of people are going to be quick to say it's a reaction to kind of where you were at like you know rebel moon i i don't think it was a reaction i i mean i'd love i'd like that narrative but it's just not really true.
16:03I mean, I think it was like a thing that was the only way to make it was to make it this way. And I think the real experiment was like, can we do it? Like it was, that was the experiment. Like, have we gotten too spun into like the giant world of cinema where like you just physically don't know how to make a tiny movie? Yeah. Like you can't like, unless I have like a cappuccino, like, or whatever. I don't know how, I don't know what that would be, but Like unless I have like all the bells and whistles, I can't physically do it. And I was like, you know, I just was thinking like, okay, if I have a camera and an actor, I can make a movie, you know, like that's it.
16:39That's all I need. I could probably do it with my phone. But like, you know, that'll be next. Exactly, you're going even down 30. Well, I've done an iPhone movie, so that's, I mean a little tiny one. But I did, I did like, if you go on my Vero, you'll see I did that snow steam iron. I did it like in 2017. But I did this little like, I was going to teach a class up at Art Center. Yeah. And because I was really, I really wanted to like, we had like basics, right? Of film. And like what the cool thing about it is we had Super 8. So when you shoot a Super 8 movie, you know it's not the movie that's going to be the movie that like is start your career.
17:14Right. Because, you know, it's just like, it's practice. Yeah. Feels like practice. You're getting the hours. It's like a sketch. Yeah. It's like you have a sketchbook. Yeah. Well, I just feel like, you know, a lot of times in film school, because now in the like most in the basic classes people have um use real cameras yeah you know so they don't know the starter kit they kind of think like oh maybe this is the movie right and so i was like oh no let's do an iphone class where we talk about the real kind of nuts and bolts of making a movie yeah nuts and bolts of shooting scene creation all that stuff and we can really walk through it in a kind of very kind of methodical way you know the things that a lot of times i think in film school like they assume you know right and you you just don't really have like real scene construction like language yeah and they and and so i just thought i'll be so fun and and really to make like a film every two weeks and really crank you know like a five minute movie every two weeks go yeah and we had that when i would when i had my basics of film at art center we literally had a film due every two weeks and they had to be good and they had to be interesting and whatever and so I had this whole idea like I was like oh we're gonna do a shoot with an iPhone edited blah blah blah and then like I remember Debbie said to me like you know you've never really shot a movie on an iPhone so you have this huge idea about like making iPhone movies but do you is that possible right so I was like oh shit you're right so I was like okay so I just on like I took a weekend and I just shot a little movie basically with my phone and it's on the internet so you can check it out.
18:45It's called Snow Steam Iron. There it is. Shot on iPhone. There it is. More Happy Say Confused coming up.
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22:42So, okay, so going forward with this, okay, so it's out in the world. People have seen it. A small, not a lot of people have seen it. No, not a lot. Like, what is the goal? Like, is there an ideal kind of, like, home for this that you hope that this lands at? Are you looking at the big screen? I would love it on the big screen. I just think that it's, you know, I'm super excited for more visceral reactions to the movie. So it's this love-hate. It's like you like, oh, I wish people would just be kind, but you also get off on it a little bit. I mean, it's just the reality. Like if I didn't, I would just like not do this.
23:17You know, like I don't know how I've entered into this, you know, into this narrative where like the movies are so divisive and so, you know, it's just a movie. It's not really it's not that if you if you if if after you see this, you're like, well, I got to see that Zack Snyder movie. Apparently it's crazy. You might be slightly I'm not going to be disappointed. But it's not like another, you're not going to be like, oh my God, it's so violent and sexually deprived and all those things. Depraved and deprived. It's actually more sexually deprived actually than it is depraved. Within the first 30 seconds, you'll feel that.
24:01Yeah. No, but yeah, in the first five minutes of the movie, it's pretty hilarious. You know what you're in. It's pretty hilarious. But like also it's just, I don't know. Like I think, you know, people think people would take it. And I understand that like a super earnest, right? Yeah. But I'm also like a very self-aware. Like people think I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. But like I'm incredibly self-aware. Like I understand kitsch. Like kitsch is my favorite genre. It is what, I can't help myself. Like you've watched 300, you watch Watchmen, you watch any of my movies, Rubble Moon, anyone, if you don't think I - You get the joke.
24:47You don't think Kitch, Kitch is like, and I mean Kitch in the high art way, not in like, you know, whatever like - Snarky. Snarky, yeah. Like, you know, camp, there's a big difference between camp and Kitch, right? Kitch is like, the Kitch school of like art is a very sophisticated, self-aware, deconstructivist way of making movies. And that's in my DNA. And I think that people think that I... I love that when people try and get in my head and think the way I think. And I think that I always am super excited about that because I find it really amusing because it's the way they position me as some sort of like...
25:32I remember this one review in, do you remember those, do they still exist? Fuck, what are they? I think they're out of Chicago. It was a film. Wait, AV Club? AV Club. It was an AV Club review. And I forget the woman who wrote the review, but it was basically like, I'm sure Zack Snyder, every time he tells cut, he like jerks off, right? No? And I'm just like, that's awesome. Like that is an awesome, like, first of all, my kids are reading this stuff. But like, I just think that it was like, I just was like, that's such a like, cool, like, if they only knew though, one millimeter deep. Like, you know, I wish I was that shallow.
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26:15That'd be amazing. Well, you're all so much easier. People also like, it's so funny, you're kind of co-opted by both sides of the political spectrum, right? Like, often it feels like, oh, I mean, I've seen some comments here. It's like, oh, this, this could go to the Daily wire this is like so extreme right fascist etc like yeah that's cool i don't i don't understand i don't understand the yeah i sure i think i have absolutely absolutely um you know it's look it's it's it's i thought like you know i think last photograph is a lot like barbie you know in some ways you know in in that it's like you know sort of you know I've made it from my perspective you know and it's it's yeah is it is it two men on a journey it is that's I'm not going to apologize for being for having two male characters right in the movie and that there's not a but also like you know are they haunted is is the one character haunted by this woman that he's loved his whole life and couldn't make it like it's not about whether or not she's in the movie if the criticism is like you know there's no female character in the movie well there is a female character in the movie she happens to have her presence is the actual catalyst for every single thing that happens in a movie even like the idea that like if you watch this movie um and your point of view is that well why why didn't we like really flesh out that female character and have a whole like really have her like be it because that's not the movie right it's not like uh it's not a it's not a choice of like me excluding yeah or like characterizing like making a cliche of the female character because we rarely see it it also says something about how it echoes through your existence we all like carry those problems well it says something about the men too the guy that's haunted it's like is he's viewing her the full person at that point but like all we all have relationships where we've like you put a lot you put all these things onto it that just aren't there probably you know and like you you you know And we like, are the people, these past relationships you've had in your life, when you remember the person, do you remember them as a full fleshed out character?
28:54Or do you remember the bits of the person that affected you in certain ways and made you sad or happy or whatever? That's how you remember people. Yeah. The idealized version. Of course. Yeah. Of course. So, okay. So, go. Yes. He literally has like a nude photograph of the woman. Right. That she did on purpose, by the way. Right. Like it's not a, that's how I remember you. Like I'm gonna fuck you up. Like I'm leaving you, like the relationship's over. I'm gonna let you take one photograph of me before I leave. And in it, I'm gonna like take my clothes off. And that I'm gonna leave you with, so suck on that.
29:32Like that's never happened to you? Right. Come on, we all have that picture. Where is it? Show it to me. Show me the picture. You've all got it. It's on your phone now because we don't have Polaroids anymore. This is true. Is this... Don't tweet it. Don't. Yeah. That's your PSA from Zay. Everybody tweet it into my feed. I want to see everybody's last photograph. Personal last photograph. Hashtag personal last photograph. Yeah. What is last photograph to you? Oh my God. There it is. There it is. We just created your marketing campaign. It really is. Is this the final cut or would you like... Are you like...
30:06Are you delivering this to like a studio or streamer as is? I think so. Okay. This is the Snyder about the Snyder. I don't know. I don't know what to do to it. Right. So more violence? I don't know. I think you got it. Okay. So can I ask you some other things going off of where you're at? I know Escape from New York is on the docket. Oh, yeah. Are there any lessons from this experience that you're going to apply? It's the same lessons I always get. It's not, I don't know that there's any, I mean. So what's the approach? What's, because I mean, look, we all revere, come on, Escape from New York is a totemic film for all of us.
30:42Oh, no, the approach is for me to like, well, I mean, you know, the movie is going to be set in in 97. You know, it's sort of a it's a, you know, from the perspective of 1981, I set the movie. The sort of the war between, you know, the United States police force and the elements, criminal elements takes place. I think July 9th, 1981, which is the release date of the original movie, right? Amazing. So, and then, you know, there's a bit of a, and then the rest is pretty much Escape from New York, you know, just, I think it's, I mean, and also talk about a movie that is like, you know, it's like, it's the perfect combination of Kitsch and Camp.
31:34And it's all the things. That's why I love it. You know, it's like, But also, it's a way that satire can get to us. We can make comments about government and all the overreach or whatever you want to call it. The People's Liberation Front of America. All that stuff is very like, that's in the headlines. So it's a really, it's quite a, it's quite, I think it's quite a, it's a, it's a current in some ways. Do you have your snake flisken? I may. Someone you've worked with before? I'm not going to say. Is snake going to look like, is like the eyepatch? He better. Yeah, you got to keep it. He better look like snake or he's like, I'll walk out.
32:26I did talk to Jeffrey Dean Morgan recently and he was saying that he's been hitting you up whether it's snake or another. He literally has been hitting me up for yeah he's just been like I don't know. Did he send you an audition tape a growl like a little. He doesn't need to send me a growl I got plenty of that. No he's the best I love him. He's great. He's great. He was telling me when I when I talked in how you used to kind of like tease and egg him on on DBS like Flashpoint like just sort of like tease that was coming. Was that, was, that's, that's cool. Was, was it part of the plan for JL?
32:59It could have been, sure. It could have been. Yeah. Did you have kind of like? And Jeffrey's great. You know, he's, he's so strong. Yeah. You know, a lot of, a lot of people like, you know, do a cameo and you're like, oh, that's, that's a ballsy cameo because, you know, that person obviously couldn't sustain like, like an actual storyline, you know? Right. But he obviously can. Oh, he's amazing. Yeah. More Happy Say Confused coming up.
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35:42Okay, so if you'll indulge me a few random things. 20th anniversary, 300, you were saying? Let's go. Let's go. Okay, when you look back at that one, all your films, so many iconic moments and shots. Can you take me back to the This is Sparta-like moment? There's no way to go too big on that, right? You know you're going... You know, I've heard Jerry tell this story a few times about the This Is Sparta. Yeah. What's true? What's your recollection? I mean, I hear his version. I hear it. That sounds a little... I hear it. It's... Sure. Sure. What's your version? I just think that...
36:20From my point of view, there was... In the comic book, This Is Sparta is written with exclamation points. Right. So I... You leaned into the fatal adaptation. it it and he did an amazing job like that line is iconic right like it's beyond and i just think that yeah the moment i just remember um you know him doing that version and being like okay good all right we got we can now what else right what else we got like let's moving on there's other things to do right we have that because that's correct so yeah no i i'm um yeah like i i i yeah Yeah, it's fantastic. And you know, it's a pretty, it's a very rich universe, the 300 universe.
37:07I was gonna say, so it sounds like we're finally getting close to you returning to that universe in a TV form, yes? Yes. It's the prequel, it's the... I'm looking around. And there's nobody here. I'm looking around. Is that cool? Can I say that? I think we know that there's been in development a couple TV series. Okay, great. Yes. And it sounds like it does feel like there's... It does feel like it's very exciting and very good. would you direct any portion of it or i think so oh that's exciting yeah was there was also a obviously there was the sequel film that you did direct but like there was another script you guys wrote right like a third film like or there was a third film but as i was writing it it literally got high it was an alesander the great story right that got hijacked by history when i did my research and it turned into this um it's a script that exists i had never made into a movie but it um it's a love story it turned into a love story between alexander and a festian and it just completely diverged from the 300 universe completely and became its own thing and all that now is a complete it's it just i had to go back to everyone and say i didn't i didn't they were like go write a 300 sequel and i was like cool and then i came back and i said i didn't do it i wrote something i wrote a thing but it's not that and they were like what happened and i I was like, yeah, I just fell in love with this other story and I wrote it and sorry.
38:29So that's not, that didn't become the prequel series. No. Can you say anything about what the topic or characters are in the prequel series? In the prequel series? I mean, I don't, I don't think I'm allowed to say. Okay, okay, okay. I would love to. Okay, we'll move on. But I'm allowed to. But it's cool. I believe it. It's very cool. I feel like we've been talking ever since Sucker Punch came out about the director's cut, revisiting it. Like, what the? Oh, Sucker Punch. Yeah, I would love that. that's like it's just like it's one of those things like where every time i i call over to warner village to say like okay we should do the director's cut of sucker punch because obviously there's a lot of conversation um it's like there's all these like weird things of like you have to wait for some licenses to completely um i see finish because if i've say i've bought the original sucker punch or whatever or one of the versions yeah and i'm showing it on my streaming service or somewhere and then I release the director's cut apparently that diminishes the value of the thing that I bought and so I don't know that's what I've been told okay it might be bullshit it's a good excuse but I go oh yeah oh okay but on the docket one day when the definitely on the docket definitely on the docket oh yeah okay I gotta get the girls back for a couple like via like a little ADR here and there too so.
39:48Are any of the past, I mean you've kind of revisited all the works in different ways I feel like. Is there anything left in the past work to kind of revisit for... I don't think so. No, you've done it. I've really done it. I've really mined it. Are you okay with some of these random ones here? Can I... I'm fine with the random ones. It all feels like the random ones. It's all good. It's all good. Okay. So did you ever explore a Jor-El kind of spin-off or anything? Because I always loved the opening sequence of Man of Steel. And I know Russell talked about like, oh, he would have loved to explore more there.
40:20Was there ever a serious conversation of anything more there? There was a small conversation we had about some sort of prequel, you know, Zod, Jor-El, early days kind of world. But it was always just, I think it was fun. the I talked to you a lot about casting about all your different things iconic roles over the years I never talked about Lois and I was always curious on yeah Kristen Stewart Zoe Saldana were any of these folks like almost your lowest Zoe was okay um but Amy was just like Amy you know like I just felt like you know as far as like America's Sweetheart kind of like perfect right you know she had she had moxie yep leaning into kind of just like the the iconic yeah like that's i just really i mean i mean i love zoe so it was like really hard yeah um and i thought zoe's like very she's always power strong yeah yeah and she's always like just so so good um But like, I don't know.
41:29Amy was just like, just felt cheap. And I don't mean this. I mean this in a good way. Like she felt like very, very much on the nose. Yeah. But she's such a good actress. She was actually able to do it. Yeah. And actually able to make it into something other than what it is. Yeah. You know, which I think is like, that's the ultimate thing. Like you, you think you did the obvious thing, but then the way the person does it is still like, yeah, better. But the last couple of times, I feel like we've talked, we've kind of, you know, we talked about the journey through the comic book universe and kind of like it seemed like you said to me, maybe not in these exact words, that you kind of needed a break.
42:05You needed like to kind of detox a little bit because you just went through it. Charlie, where are you at now? Like, are you consuming film, comics, anything? Or are you still kind of on? I need I need some distance from that world. um no i mean a little bit but you know i still i mean look the truth is you know i've already ignited some and you know i i don't think it's not falsely but like you know without any real i mean like i said dark knight returns is like the real for me it's a slight holy grail yeah because I think to have done Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns is really like, that's the...
42:54That's the binary that defines the whole. That's it. If you've done those two, you can really, you could, it'd be hard to call bullshit on me after that. Are you reading comics? People love like absolute Batman. Not really. I read a comic recently called Dead Samurai, which is a zombie story set in sort of feudal Japan, which obviously is awesome. It checks the boxes for you. Something to think, if you're interested, you can go check it out. We're there, I got a chance to catch up with Gal actually recently and we were talking about the end for each of your characters in that universe was unfortunate and James has talked about like it was it was just not ideal the way it kind of like all went down for various reasons like do you feel like there was like a definitive moment for you where you knew like your time in that universe was done like was there a phone call an email a moment or was it kind of like a slow kind of disintegration of you kind of exiting that world?
43:59I mean oh geez I mean, that whole saga around me leaving was.
44:10Yeah, I think that when Debbie came back to me after watching the cut of Justice League, the Joss cut of Justice League, and she said, you are to never see that movie. I knew it was kind of that was that was that was it. And I thought, OK, that's going to be the legacy. it's just going to be and i believe and i haven't seen this but i believe that in the um in the title sequence of i've seen it memed so i'm not 100 sure how it works okay they're on my on my where it says directed by zach snyder yeah there is a homeless person that has a i think have a thing that says, I tried or something like that.
44:59And I find it really like, I was like, wow, that's cool. That's a good, like if I hadn't done my Justice League, that would have been the end of it. So that's, you can imagine that's cool. That's cool. So you still haven't seen the Joss cut? Not. Yeah. Is there enough alcohol in the universe to get you to watch that? Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get it. And to clarify, because I know you talked to, I think, Hollywood Reporter the other day. So while you support James and your friends, you haven't seen that film for whatever reason. Yeah, I just I honestly it's just that, you know, like it's a personal thing, you know, for me, like I want it.
45:36I want success for them. And I think that, you know, I trust James is like aesthetic and like his take. It's a very kind of, you know, he has a very particular way of making movies and like looking at things. And so, yeah, it's it's just the it's just that it's just the difficulty it's wrapped up in other yeah it's got a lot of baggage yeah and no supergirl no no lanterns you're not watching any of them yeah i get it i get it are you ever i mean i it's memed all over my xp so you've seen him bits and pieces yeah it's crazy are we ever going to see you like take on like the um excalibur kind of world the arthurian myth which i know you hold so dear you love that yeah i do love that film um if you noticed in the movie last night, there's a lot of Excalibur references.
46:27Sure. But yeah, I don't know. I have something that I like a property that I was working on that kind of goes into that a little bit. Okay. So maybe. Are there, I mean, like I mentioned, like Rebel Moon was there for a while. This has been out there for a while. Like, what's the one now? Like, is there another one that's been decades in the making that is still kind of percolating? The Fountainhead. Fountainhead. Still on the list. Fountainhead is absolutely on the list. Yeah. Wow. I really feel like it's a good time for Fountainhead. By the way, I wish I had Fountainhead ready to be released on the heels of this.
47:00What a double one. It would be a perfect. You thought I was crazy. Yeah, exactly. I just feel like, you know, because I've written it as a 12 part. Like I've written 10 of the 12 episodes. So it would be a series. It's like a limited series. I had the original script. I've always been, you know, I'm a look. I'm an apologetic fan of Fountainhead. I don't care. I saw Brad Pitt the other day say he is not a Fountainhead fan. Oh, I didn't hear that. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, bro. You want to talk to him? He likes architecture. And I always said, any director, and I'm sure this is fine. It's like, whatever.
47:43It is what it is. But I just think that it's one of those things. There's not a lot of books for architects out there. Right. like probably you know all the all the all the kids who love architecture the refountainhead are like that's my this is my thing yeah and then they're told by like their teacher at in their liberal arts college that they're not allowed to like found it so that maybe they have to put it aside but then they secretly read it in the how do you so how but anyway I saw I've written a 10 10 out of 12. Yeah. And, you know, I have like a whole, it's just one of these things that I've, I started writing it in like 2018.
48:25Okay. So, it's not like a super, it's not super long time, but it's a lot of work, you know, to write it, to adapt it. Although, what I was going to say is I had, because I, you know, I'd always been sort of trying to develop it maybe as a movie. Right. You know, and then I got a hold of Ayn Rand's original like script before they cut it down for the movie. But it's like 310 page script. You know, it's like a really dense script. So I used that script to help me edit the whatever she kind of edited. Yeah. Like the storylines that she felt like weren't in the movie were because it's not every single thing, you know, Because it looks like 700 pages.
49:12So there are a few edits I made, not crazy. And I use that as sort of the way through the process. So is the idea to finish out the 12 scripts and then go out with it? Or are you like trying to like find a place? I don't know. I have some ideas on how to make it. Not the iPhone for this one. Not the iPhone. Not the iPhone. I've talked to a lot of... There's a lot of... Strangely, there's a lot of like very powerful, very wealthy people that like found it. I'm sure. So, you know, there's a there's a there's some there's some interest. Okay. Weirdly, like, you know, you I took it around, you know, and it was the reaction.
49:52It was it was it was interesting. I got let me just say I sold it to two companies. And then for whatever reason, they came back to me like a week later and were like, oh, we can't do it. so i think they just they just they pulled it up the flagpole and and everyone was like what you're insane we can't make fountainhead so i'm excited about that that's a reason to make it right there by the way i i get it um is brawler still on the docket brawlers yes i brawler um i have uh uh let's see what else is uh what's the other thing we talked about blood and ashes Yeah, that's the 300. Yeah. No, no, but yeah, that's the 300.
50:35300 iskew. 300. Oh, that's what became. That's what it began. So could you still make that as the not 300? I could make it. I could. I own it outright. Courtney Valenti was my executive. And she was really like, she was very encouraging. of this homoerotic, very, very awesome, very beautiful love story really, to be honest. Let's be honest. So these guys conquered the world and it was incredible. And so where is Brawler at now? And Brawler, well, I just, you know, the UFC is, they've got this new home at Paramount. And I think that there's kind of like a, as that settles in, I think they're kind of, I'm going to see what that relationship's like.
51:23I mean, obviously, he's doing really well at the Paramount, so that's great. Where are you at? I mean, one of the hot blood initiatives, I'm sure you've been asked about this. What's your take on AI these days in terms of like as a tool, as something to run away from? Well, you can obviously like the movie I just made, it's like, no, it barely has any visual effects. So it was a very organic experience. And I haven't really, you know, look, you know, do I have Chad Chibi T on my phone? I do. And, you know, like I think, is it like right now, how it's being going to be used in cinema in the future?
52:02I just hope we're not making, you know, full CG or AI images that are being sold as like, you know, I think that like, once the humans are AI, I'm a little concerned. How's that? Yeah, that's my, that's my, I know it feels simplified, but I think it's the most, I think the humans need to be human. This is the line in the sand, it seems. Yeah. It feels like just. Basic. Yeah. Are you. I know that it's going to, it's going to get muddy and going to get, it's going to get, you know, because visual effects is such a slippery slope. because visual effects like, you know, traditional CG visual effects and now AI visual effects are very, you know, the line between those two things is like very, it's blurry and it's hard to put your finger on it.
52:56But you can always say that humans need to be human. Yeah. And that's like, I think that's that's for me. Yeah. And I'm look, there's a lot of other things and the shots need to be the shots. Also, I don't need AI talent like making any shots like they should not AI should make no shots right humans should make shots and humans should be in movies that's kind of how it should be are you been a good year in movies I mean the rise of horror with the obsessions of the world I'm sure you've seen Odyssey by now your buddy Chris's film these all inspiring for you as a filmmaker what are you inspired by I love I like people I do think that one thing I think in response to AI that you might find is that the and I hope this is true this cinema becomes this sort of certified place to see actually handmade things you know like I think there's I do believe there'll be a resurgence of handmade you know whether it be ceramics or I don't I don't know what but just handmade objects will take a value that they may be lost over time and I think movies in that is in the same way you know movies made by people for people in a handmade way.
54:08I don't know visual effects or what's happening over here, but as long as it's presented by a person to other people. Yeah. And I think the movie theater itself will be the place where you can be... The ultimate version. You had some sort of stamp that allows you to believe that that's true in there. I think it is an inspiring thing right now. It seems like, I mean, I'm going to sound like an old person, but like the fetishization for the younger generation right now around the movie theater experience of like the IMAX, the 70 mil, like the formats, like the practical. It's really kind of cool to see.
54:41It's very cool. I like it because it really, it goes back to what I was saying about the handmade thing. You know, it's like all those things are artisan ingredients. And I think that people can recognize that, you know, and they want to, you know, and I think it's cool. All right, we're going to end with this. I've done this with some filmmakers and actors that have amazing filmographies. I'm going to put your films up against each other. You're going to choose the best X-Sciner film of all time, bracket style. Oof, you ready? I guess. All right, Dawn of the Dead versus 300, what do you choose?
55:13Oh, I gotta go 300. Okay. Now Steel versus BBS.
55:24Those two, you really wanna do that? I know. It's strong. Director's Cut of Course. Obviously, yeah.
55:32BBS. Okay. Justice League versus Watchmen. Fuck. That's rude. You've done this to yourself. That's rude. I know it is.
55:46Justice League. Okay. Sucker Punch versus Rebel Moon. Oh. Director's got to course. Yeah, always. I'm gonna say Rebel Moon. Okay. So now it's Rebel Moon versus Justice League. Justice League. And then it's 300 versus BVS. BVS. And now for all the marbles, BVS versus Justice League. The greatest Zack Snyder film of all time. According to Zack Snyder. I would have to say Justice League. All right. Yeah. You got to go with the dream. Yeah. The one that couldn't be stuck. Watchmen could have snuck in there, but it's... I didn't know what to do. I didn't know where... Yeah. It should have been Watchmen versus Justice League in the end.
56:28We'll do that next time. That's fine. Today it's Justice League. Today it's Justice League. It is. All right. Always a fun time chatting with you, especially like this is like a moment in time we will always remember. This is a moment in time. I'm excited. The discourse continues. The discourse always continues. I know you'll find a great home for this one. Congratulations on the last photograph. Thank you. And thanks to those for the time, man. Cheers, brother. Appreciate you. Have fun. And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.
57:03I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't sure to do this by Josh.
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From the publisher
Welcome Zack Snyder back to HSC! For Zack’s fourth time on the pod, him and Josh catch up at the Toronto International Film Festival, where Zack is premiering his new film, THE LAST PHOTOGRAPH. Also, updates on the 300 prequel series, his ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK remake, and his adaptation of THE FOUNTAINHEAD. Plus, his thoughts on the new DCU, AI in filmmaking, and what he thinks his best movie is. As Zack himself says here, “Start the discourse!”
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