Hard Fork Live, Part 1: Sam Altman and Brad Lightcap of OpenAI

21:41And it sort of, in many ways kicks off the moment that we're living in now, and that was extremely surreal. The evening that we had at Hard Fork Live was kind of a perfect sequel to that, because now you have a person who is fully in control, who wants to bend reality to his will, and if there's a couple journalists he can just kind of kick in the shins on his way toward building God, he's going to be happy to do it. Yeah, and we should also say Sam did send us an email after the show apologizing for his behavior. He said he was, quote, such an asshole, and the he felt bad about it. So that tells you something.

22:15But yeah, what you'll hear in this segment is the two of us being somewhat flustered that our planned introduction is just being interrupted by these two guys wandering on the stage. And we'll take it from there. And I will also say, I have no idea what's going to happen in Sam Altman's third appearance on Hard Fork, but the bar has been set really high. All right. When we come back, we'll have the interview with Sam Altman and Brad Lightcap from OpenAI.

23:03We're about halfway through the show. I thought I would just kind of check in. Are you guys having a good time? Okay. Okay, good. Okay, good. We're having a lot of fun. Oh boy. They told us to come out. They just pushed us out. There's no way. Okay, great. Do you want us to go back? No, come on out. Come on out.

23:27Hi, Brad. Wow. Good to see you. I love it. We're doing it live today, family. You guys are learning a very important thing about our show, which is that it's edited.

23:41Kevin, do you have maybe one more thing you want to say before we get into the interview? Yes, so we're here with Sam Altman and Brad Lightcap from OpenAI. We'll just hang out. Do your thing. You can, like, check your email. Go for it, yeah. Well, what we were going to do is tee up your appearance a little bit by just giving a little lay of the land of what's been going on at OpenAI, which is a very busy company. This is more fun than we're out here for this, though. Yeah. No, jump in. Like, you guys can be Statler and Waldorf over there. We'll do the color commentary. I had a list of headlines from the past couple of weeks, and if there's anything that just makes you want to roll your eyes, you can roll your eyes.

24:13Okay. So, you... Are you going to talk about where you sue us because you don't like user privacy? Okay. Woo! The last thing Sam said to me before he came on stage was, I don't strive for... I did say that. That's true. Well, you teed it up with the headlines. Do you want to say something, Kevin, about the New York Times? Oh, yes. We should also give our disclosures, which is that we are just journalists. We are not involved in the lawsuit.

24:41I don't know. We don't represent the company's views on the matter. What do you think of the company's views? What do I think of the company's views? Are you trying to get me fired, Sam? No, I plan on. Kevin needs this job, Sam. I don't have any other skills. It seems like you've got a podcast. I mean, a lot of things. Yeah. Well, okay, great. So, you know, you said that. I'm gonna just pretend I didn't hear your pro the lawsuit What's that you're pro the lawsuit? I think people should read the relevant filings and make up their own mind Yes, democracy democracy We love it. We love it. We love it.

25:18And what about your mind? It feels like you have something you want to say about the lawsuit. No, no. Well, I look I do think Like user I like user privacy. I don't I don't think you want to explain what you're talking about here. Oh Well, you guys are suing us. I'm an independent contractor. I write a newsletter. It's called Platformer. Yeah, don't drag him into this. And one of the things that's happening is you all are, sorry, your employer is, I don't know what you call it for an independent contractor. The New York Times. Let's just say the New York Times. One of the great institutions, truly, for a long time, is taking a position that we should have to preserve our users' logs, even if they're chatting in private mode, even if they've asked us to delete them.

26:08And, you know, the lawsuit we're happy to fight out, but that thing we really, we think that privacy and AI is just this, like, extremely important concept to get right for the future, and we care a lot about the precedent. Still love you guys, still love the New York Times, but that one we feel strongly about. Well, thank you for your views, and I'll just say it must be really hard when someone does something with their data that you don't really want them to. I don't know what that's like personally, but maybe someone else does. Okay, let's get started with the questions. That's all right. I was recently told by a guest on stage that the singularity would be gentle.

26:40So I just want to point that out to you. Casey, read your headlines. Speaking of, do we still want the headlines? Let's go into the question. These people know what's been happening with OpenAI. Okay. But I think it's important to give a sense of the sheer volume of stuff you all are doing. Like, we've been covering tech for a long time. I don't think either of us have ever seen a company that makes this much news this regularly on this many areas. I mean, you've got hardware stuff going on with Johnny Ive. You've got, obviously, ChatGPT continues to grow. You're doing this defense contract, this$200 million defense contract, a deal with Mattel to make toys.

27:18I think you were the first company to design a deal with Mattel and the military in the same week. I like that. um stargate your big data center project uh your attempted conversion to a for-profit company so there's just a lot going on in your worlds um casey well but we wanted to start with something i don't know that i thought you might have fun talking about which is that rascal mark zuckerberg keeps coming after your employees

27:47and i'm sure this is happening to you guys on some level all of the time but i wonder if there's been any particularly funny or crazy moment over the past few weeks as they've really stepped this up? Any that you think have been particularly funny? Many. Many? Good. Yeah. I don't know. I haven't slept in four years, so it's like, at this point, nothing phases me. One of the strangest things of the job is the amount of things that can go wrong by like 11 o 'clock on a Monday morning is just an astonishing diversity of stuff. And so it's like, okay, Zuckerberg is doing some new insane thing what's next?

28:26I want to gossip for just one minute more Only one? We're here for a lot of that We can do more gossip Do you think Mark Zuckerberg actually believes in super intelligence or do you just think he's saying that as a recruiting tactic? I think he believes he's super intelligent

28:50Light cap off the ropes!

28:57Very good. All right. But it sounds like your confidence has not been shaken by the recent raid on your employees. We're feeling good. Yeah. All right. All right. So you recently wrote this essay I just mentioned, The Gentle Singularity. And you wrote, we're past the event horizon. The takeoff has started. and people, I think, read that and thought, do these guys have a super intelligence that they're keeping it in the basement? I assume that that's not true, but tell us a little bit about why you wrote that essay and when, in your mind, we hit this point of no return. We don't have a super intelligence in the basement, but we have shipped a model that any of you can use, and I hope any of you do, that is quite smart relative to what you might have expected five years ago, where the world would be with AI.

29:54And we have all adjusted to this. We've all just sort of said, oh, you know, this is, you know, this is the new world. We have like PhD level intelligence in our pocket and we can use it. We can talk to it all day. We can do all the stuff for us. But it is kind of remarkable that this has happened and this is the world now. And when you are like living through moving history you adapt so quickly that i think it's hard to get the perspective of like man you know five years ago most of the experts made fun of anyone who said ai agi might be even a plausible thing to to work towards and now here we are with this like this thing that has come quite a long way that we can use in all these ways and we have always so we used to try to just say like hey this AGI thing is coming.

30:45It might be a really big deal. It might be really important. You all should pay attention. No one cared. And we shipped the product and then people cared. And a thing we've learned again and again is, you know, talking about it doesn't seem to break through, but if people can use it and feel it and, you know, see where it's good and where it's bad and integrate with their lives, then they do. And so now we see many years ahead of us of extreme progress that we feel is like pretty much on lock and models that will get to the point where they They are capable of doing meaningful science, meaningful AI research.

31:17And we continue to feel a responsibility to tell the world about that. Most people won't listen. Maybe some more people will listen this time. But we'll ship products that expose these higher levels of intelligence that we'll build. And that is how I think people will really get their hands around what's happening. Now, Brad, it's your job to manage the business of OpenAI. What is being past the event horizon towards super intelligence mean for open AI as a company? I imagine it makes lots of different kinds of decisions different. But like, how do you plan for a world like the one that Sam is describing as a person who runs a business?

31:51Yeah, it's the fun part of what we do. We debate this internally a lot. Like, we will kind of wake up one day with this incredibly powerful thing. And will the world be different that day? And I think what we've all kind of agreed now is it probably won't. To Sam's point, I think these things really have to be integrated into people's lives. They have to be felt. That change is more gradual. We work really closely with companies, as much as we do with users, to figure out what that process will look like. I do think businesses will look very different in the future. My personal metric for what business in the superintelligence age means is you've got one person who has a lot of agency and a lot of willpower, who has the capacity to start a company that can do billions of dollars in revenue.

32:36And it's hard to imagine now. You think, okay, I need salespeople, and I need product people, and engineers, and accountants, and so on. But all of that stuff now can kind of just be managed. It can be kind of built into the system. And that just gives incredible agency to individual people. So I want to get into the nitty-gritty of building this future. Right now, the agents that you all have built for coding are really extremely good. People can build a lot of amazing stuff with them. Outside that domain, we've seen less progress. Talk to me about what's going to happen the next year that makes you feel like you can start knocking off one or more of these other domains.

33:16Well, first of all, coding is pretty general purpose. If you can write code, you can do a system that can write code, just like a person that can write code can make a lot of other things happen. But we are beginning to see scientists be much more productive with this. We're seeing companies like really change a lot of their workflows. The thing though that I am excited for, most of the way people use AI today is sort of like send a request, get a response. You send chat to your request, it might think for a second, it might not. It sends you something back. You are in one of those like vibe coding things and you do something and you get something back.

33:55I think I'm very excited for a world where each of us has you know a copy of 03 or many copies of 03 that are just constantly running constantly trying to like say oh I see this happening now this and I'm reading slack and I'm reading email I see this and this and this and you asked about this yesterday here's a new idea and starts to just we have this like team of agents assistants companions, whatever you want to call them, that are doing stuff in the background all of the time. And that, I think, will really transform what people can do and how we work and kind of maybe to some extent how we just sort of like live our lives.

34:32So I use O3 all the time. It is helpful to me as a journalist. It can fact check stuff for me. It can edit stuff for me. When is the moment when like it just kind of knows what I do and in the morning it actually just kind of starts doing that stuff without me telling it? Well, that's kind of what I'm talking about, except I don't think it should be with you telling it. But I would love if I woke up every morning and there was a drafted response to every email that had come in overnight and I could click and I could say, I want to send this one. I want to edit this one. I want to send that one.

35:02If I could open ChatGPT and say, hey, here was the stuff you were working on yesterday that you didn't finish on your to-do list. Here's my attempts at that. Do you want me to take this action out on that one? And by the way, here are these other things that happened overnight with a customer or in the world or whatever. And, you know, here's a set of stuff I could do for you. And I have like all of this ready to go. And I could just sort of go through and say like, okay, do that. Don't do that. You know, here's what should have been different here. That I'm very excited about, but I don't want to like go to sleep and have O3 just start taking actions for me.

35:31All right. I use O3 a lot too. And I find it very useful. The thing I will say is that it lies. It like more than previous models, I feel like it is a crafty, shifty assistant that will just once in a while make stuff up. And actually, it seems like the hallucination rates on these newer models are staying about the same or maybe even getting worse. So do you have a theory on why that might be? I think it did get a little bit worse from 01 to 03. And we'll make it much better in the next version. I think we're earlier in learning how to align reasoning models and also how people are using them in different ways.

36:12but I think we've now learned a lot, and I would suspect you'll be very happy with the next generation there. So you made your largest acquisition to date this year with Johnny Ives I.O. The first crop of AI hardware that we've seen has not been particularly successful. Brad and Sam, what do you guys feel like you're seeing that makes you feel like you can do something different here? Well, every time you kind of replatform technology, there tends to be kind of a corresponding set of things that get built that change how we interface with that technology. So I think the question here is, is that going to happen again?

36:46You know, all of a sudden, right, like you have you kind of miniaturize the PC and you have the mobile phone. You know, the PC itself was a miniaturization, the mainframe and so on and so forth. I think this one has a different direction. I think this one is really going to be about this very kind of aware, very contextual, almost companion-like system that is going to be less about kind of like a dependency on a screen. I think there's a place for a screen in that world, but it's going to be really about an awareness of kind of the ambient environment. What's going on? What's, I mean, Sam mentioned the kind of trivial example of like something that, you know, is looking at your email.

37:19You can build something that's really bad that does that today, but to get to the version of that that's like transcendently good, there's a ton of context and a ton of awareness that you have to have of like what each situational thing is that helps you craft exactly the right response and imagine that now in kind of any arbitrary situation and wanting to have that with you all the time and so I think that's a very compelling direction for this type of hardware it sounds a lot like Alexa is it going to feel a lot different than Alexa don't you just want to wait and be surprised and get some joy like it's been a long time since the world has gotten a fundamentally new kind of computer.

37:58Like, let us try. If it's Alexa, we're going to be really mad. I'm just saying that right now. So will I. And these people will remember this. Sam? I think we can do, I think we have a chance to do something truly great, but hardware is really hard and it takes a while. And, you know, I've always wanted to try to do a new kind of computer, but that hasn't worked most of the time. So we're like really going to take our time and try to get it right. Sam, a few years ago, you described your relationship with Microsoft and its CEO, Satya Nadella, as, quote, the best bromance in tech. The bromance has been feeling a little wobbly recently.

38:36OpenAI needs Microsoft's blessing for this for-profit conversion, and Microsoft has reportedly peeved at you about a bunch of things, including the terms of a planned acquisition. Last week, the Wall Street Journal reported that things had gotten so tense that OpenAI executives were considering reporting Microsoft to the government for anti-competitive behavior. Do you believe that? when you read those things and say, like, do you think... Are you saying it's not true? You know what I always think when I read that? I hope I get to ask Sam Altman about it.

39:04So what is going on, and are you caught in a bad bromance? I had a super nice call with Satya yesterday about many topics, including our hopefully very long and productive future working together. and obviously in any deep partnership there are points of tension and we've certainly had those but on the whole it's been like really wonderfully good for both companies um we're both ambitious companies so we do find some flash points but i would expect that it is something that we find like deep value in for both sides for a very long time to come um and you know in a world where I do read these articles sometimes like, OpenAI, Microsoft about to collapse, and this, you know, that, and then my calls are like, how do we figure out what the next decade together looks like?

39:59And it just, it doesn't, yeah. Again, not to pretend like there's no tension, there is, but there's like so much good stuff there, and I think there's like such a long horizon. That's what we in the business call a non-denial denial. I don't know. Just kidding. Let's move on into some policy stuff. You've talked to President Trump, What does he think about AI? What are those conversations like?

40:25That was not intended to be a laugh line. You want to take it first? I'll do it. No, that's fine. That was not intended to be a laugh line either.

40:37I think he really gets it. I think he gets the technology. I couldn't say that about all presidents. I think he really understands the importance of leadership in this technology, the potential for economic transformation, the sort of geopolitical importance, the need to build out a lot of infrastructure. They're like very productive conversations. And he has done stuff that has really helped the whole industry. You know, it is easier to permit data centers and new energy to run those data centers than it has, I think, ever been before. and that could have gone the other way. Dario Amadei of Anthropic recently said that he thinks 50 % of entry-level white-collar jobs could disappear due to AI in the next one to five years.

41:26Do you agree? No, no, I don't. I just, no. Why not, Brad? We have no evidence of this and Dario's a scientist and I would hope he takes an evidence-based approach to these types of things but like we work with every business under the sun um we look at the problem and uh an opportunity of deploying ai into every company on earth um we we yet you know have yet to see any any evidence that that people are kind of wholesale replacing entry-level jobs um i think that there is going to be some sort of change in the job market i think it's inevitable i think every time you get a platform shift you get a change in the job market i mean in 1900 40 of people worked in agriculture, it's 2 % today.

42:11Microsoft Excel has probably been the greatest job displacer of the 20th century. And if we knew a priori that Microsoft Excel was coming and everyone was kind of fretting about it, I think in retrospect, we would have thought that was dumb. So I think there will be change, of course. But I think there's A, there's no evidence of it today, and B, I think we will manage through it. We have a lot of empathy for the problem. I think we work with businesses every day to try and enable people to be able to use the tools at the level of like the 20 year olds that come into companies and use them with a level of fluency that far transcends anyone else at those organizations.

42:47But we see it as our mission to make sure that people know how to use these tools and to drive people forward. You know, I have to say, we've had some listeners write into the show and say, hey, I'm a junior coder. I just got laid off. I'm not feeling really good about my prospects here. So that's like a pretty small sliver of the economy. But, you know, I hear you talk about what you want to do with O3, I think if it gets as good as you're saying, it's not just going to be the junior coders who are going to be affected by that, right? So I guess what I'm saying is I feel like I'm seeing like slivers of it now.

43:14And I'm curious what you make of those. I do think there will be areas where some jobs go away, or maybe there will be some whole categories of jobs that go away. And any job that goes away, even if it's like good for society and the economy as a whole is very painful, extremely painful in that moment. And so I do totally get not just the anxiety, but that there is gonna be real pain here in many cases. In many more cases though, I think we will find that the world is significantly underemployed. The world wants way more code than can get written right now. I think we are already seeing companies who said, oh, I'm going to need less coders to now saying paradoxically, I need more coders.

44:01They're going to work differently, but I'm just going to make 100 times as much code, 100 times as much product with 10 times as much people, and we'll still make 30 times as much money even if the price comes down. I think all of human history suggests that if you give people better tools, if technology keeps going, although there are always people who say, you know, we're going to be working three hours a day and sitting on the beach and we're going or have run out of things to do. Like human demand seems limitless. Our ability to imagine new things to do for each other seems limitless. We always seem to want more stuff to play increasingly silly status games.

44:39Our jobs would not have seemed like real jobs to people in the not very distant past. You know, like you're sitting around like talking on stage and you're trying to like make a piece of software and you're trying to like do a podcast and you're trying to make people laugh. Like that's great, but that's like play. That's not a job. You have plenty of food to eat. you have all this stuff to do, you have this unimaginable luxury. And because I think human imagination and desire to man, whatever you want to call it, is limitless, we will find incredible new things to do. Society will get way richer.

45:12I think generally society gets richer. Unemployment goes down, not up. And I'd expect to keep seeing that, even though people I think don't talk about that very much. And the entry-level people, I think, will be the people that do the best here. They're the most fluent with the tools. They're the most able to think of things in very new ways. They have this sort of largest canvas. So, there's going to be real downside here. There's going to be real negative impact. And again, any single job lost really matters to that person. And the hard part about this is I think it will happen faster than previous technological changes, but I think the new jobs will be better and people will have better stuff.

46:03And the kind of like take that half the jobs are going to be gone in a year or two years or five years or whatever, I think that's just, I think that's not how society really works. Even if the technology, we're ready for that. The inertia of society, which will be helpful in this case, is like, there's a lot of mass there. The thing we actually see empirically, if we want to talk about kind of what we observe, is somewhat what Sam's describing. It's actually, there's a class of worker that I think is more tenured, is more oriented toward a routine and a certain way of doing things in a certain role that is not actually sophisticated in use of these tools.

46:43They're not adopting them. They tend to think that it's not worth their time or whatever it may be. And I think there's a lot of fear there. And a lot of what's driving that fear are like 20-somethings that are actually coming into the workforce who have been using these tools for years and years and who've mastered them in a way that they kind of look at these other jobs and they're like, why would you waste your time doing that thing? I can do that much faster. And so the thing that companies actually worry about deeply is not the entry-level job. It's really the job of the person that has been at the company for 30 years, who's done something in a very kind of rote and routine way, where there's an urge on the side of management of wanting to really kind of modernize the tool set.

47:22And what do you do with that, right? And that's, I think, actually the kind of addressable problem for us. Sam, two years ago, you testified to Congress about the need for more AI regulation. More recently, you went back to Washington and testified again that you supported a light touch regulatory regime. And earlier this year, you said you supported a federal preemption on state-level AI regulations, a version of which is now part of the Republican budget bill. What changed? Did you see the regulations that people were writing and thought, we wanted regulation, but not like that? No, I still think we need some regulation, but I would say I have, I think a patchwork across the states would probably be a real mess and very difficult to offer services under.

48:02And I also think that I have become more, jaded's quite the right word but something in that direction about the ability of policymakers to grapple with the speed of technology and i worry that if people write you know if we kick off like a three-year process to write something that's like very detailed and uh you know covers a lot of cases the technology will just move very quickly on the other hand as these systems get quite powerful i think we clearly need something and i think something around the sort of like the really risky capabilities and ideally something that can sort of be quite adaptive and not like a law that survives 100 years and sort of says here's exactly the things you can do and not do would be good but yeah it's like impossible for you to imagine a world where society doesn't decide we need some framework here.

48:59Earlier this year, you adjusted GPT-40 after it inadvertently became more sycophantic than you intended. Since then, we've read more stories about how ChatGPT and other chatbots can destabilize people by sending them down conspiratorial rabbit holes, making them feel like they're having mystical experiences. Can that be stopped? Do you want it to stop? Of course we want it to stop. I mean, we do a lot of things to try to mitigate that. You know, if people are having like a crisis, which I talk to ChatGT about, we try to convince them to, we try to suggest that they get help from a professional, that they talk to their family.

49:38If conversations are going down a sort of rabbit hole in this direction, we try to cut them off or suggest to the user to, you know, maybe think about something differently. But there are, I think the broader topic of mental health and the way that that interacts with over-reliance on AI models is something we're trying to take extremely seriously and rapidly. We don't want to like slide into the mistakes that I think previous generation of tech companies made by not reacting quickly enough as a new thing, sort of like had a psychological interaction. Have you ever thought about just like literally putting a warning on that says, this is ChatGPT, you are not talking to God, you are not having a religious experience?

50:25I mean, the model will tell you things like that, and then users will write us and say like, you modified this, you know, and they changed their like custom instructions. But yes, there need to be a lot of warnings like that. However, to the users that are in a fragile enough mental place that are like on the edge of a psychotic break, we haven't yet figured out how a warning gets through there. We also have to be careful because there are an incredible number of use cases that I think probably by sheer volume outweigh some of the use cases you're describing where people are really relying on these systems for pretty critical parts of their life.

51:03these are things like almost kind of borderline therapeutic or I get stories of people who have rehabilitated marriages have rehabilitated relationships with estranged loved ones, things like that where it's highly net positive and there's not a dependency but it's the first time in their life that they've had something that they feel like they can confide in and it doesn't cost them$1 ,000 an hour and I was surfing in Costa Rica the other day and someone paddled up to me and, you know, I was chatting with him, a local Costa Rican guy. And I was, he's like, where do you work? I said, open AI. He's like, oh, you make ChatGPT.

51:37Um, and he started, he started crying. He was like, ChatGPT saved my marriage. I didn't know how to talk to my wife. And I, it gave me tips to talk to my wife and I've, I've learned that. And you know, we've, we're on a much better path and, and, you know, it sounds like a dumb and like stupid story, but like, it's not, I mean, I was there. That's great. We're back to even cause a chat bot tried to break up my marriage. Well, not our chatbot, though. Well, it was your chatbot, but it was inside Bing, so. Spread the blame around there. Now, Sam, you just had a kid. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you.

52:15Do you think over the course of their lifetime, your kid will have more human friends or more AI friends? More human friends, but AI will be if not a friend at least an important kind of companion of some sort is that okay with you like would you if you're your kid at one point when they're a little older came home and said i've got an ai friend how would that make you feel if if my kid felt like that was playing that was like replacing human friends um i would have concerns about that at least with what again, there are edge cases. Any person who talks to hundreds of millions of people a day is going to meet a lot of edge cases.

52:59And in the sense, ChachiBT is talking to hundreds of millions of people a day, there are going to be some real edge cases in there. But most people, much more than I was concerned, seem to really understand the difference between talking to a person and talking to ChachiBT. And I still do have a lot of concerns about the impact on mental health and the social impacts from the deep relationships that people are going to have with AI. But I think at least so far, it has surprised me on the upside of how much people really differentiate between like, that's an AI, and I talk to an AI in some way, and I get something out of it, and that's a friend, and I talk to a friend, a person in this other way, and get a very different thing out of that.

53:38All right, here's something I've always wanted to ask you. AI Twitter is still really active, even though, you know, Twitter doesn't exist anymore. You actively post there, share a lot of news there and that's extremely helpful and good for elon musk a man who is trying to destroy your company have you ever thought of just moving your posts somewhere else where should i move them well you could create your own social app

54:07don't go to blue sky they don't like ai there well that's they're not going to be nice to you it's a rough neighborhood maybe a little maybe it's the last thing we wanted to know this too We'd invite you both to answer this. Is there any part of your life that you feel like, I want to wall this off from AI a little bit. It's fun to talk about AI. We think it's all very useful. We're excited to keep building it. But this particular thing, we're going analog.

54:30I got to think about that one. Surfing, presumably. Although maybe you asked for tips. We're roboticizing that now, too. It's unfortunate. But let me think about it. I'm big on the analog stuff. I put my phone away and go for hikes every weekend. And hanging out with my family, I put my phone away. And I'm very happy not to have technology in the way for that. All right. Brad and Sam, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Brad. Thank you.

55:39I'll see you next time.

56:08Thank you. Thanks to everyone at SF Jazz, the venue for our live show, as well as the band Brass Animals that played with us live on stage. Special thanks also to Matt Collette, Paula Schumann, Pui Wing Tam, Dalia Haddad, and Jeffrey Miranda. You can email us, as always, at hardfork at nytimes.com.

56:43Thank you.