The Wirecutter Show: Tips for Using A.I. Smartly With Kevin Roose

0:00The thing about AI for business, it may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM, we've seen this firsthand, but by embedding AI across HR, IT and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slash repetitive tasks and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business, IBM.

0:30Kevin Roose:Well, Casey, here we are. It's the holiday season, and we've got a special Tuesday episode for our listeners. We do. And boy, is this a special one, Kevin. And in this sense, I'm not really in it. Yes, the best hard fork episode ever, they're calling it. No, I recently went on another New York Times podcast. This is the Wirecutter show for the fine folks over at Wirecutter. And we had a wide-ranging conversation about which scented candles you should put in your house. No, it was about AI, obviously. They asked me to come on to talk about how to make AI tools work for me and for others. And we thought it might be something that Hard Fork listeners might like to hear.

1:10Kevin Roose:Yeah, and actually recently, the Wirecutter named this episode the best option for people who don't like the sound of my voice. So something fun for you. And even as we bring you that today, Kevin, we have even more planned for you this week because on Friday, we will be back and I will be participating in our annual Hard Fork New Year Tech Resolutions Show. And we're also going to be answering a bunch of your questions, listeners. So stay tuned for that. Thank you so much, Hard Fork listeners and viewers for being with us in 2025. It has been a real joy to bring this show to you. And we hope you are having a wonderful holiday break and that you have a happy new year.

1:53Kevin Roose:and we hope you have an old Lang Syne as well we do we hope you have an old Lang Syne and if your Lang Syne is looking too old get a new one does Wirecounter have any recommendations for the best Lang Syne

2:28So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now, a global workforce of 300 ,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94 % of common questions. Not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off. deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business. IBM. Starting a tech company is thrilling. It's also really messy. Just ask anyone who's done it, or anyone who's tried.

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4:08Kevin Roose:I rely on Wirecutter before I buy anything. And I am desperate for someone to tell me which language models are good for which things. because otherwise I am spending so much money on these things and I'm spending all this time trying to figure out what is good for what. And I would just love it if you all, who are the experts in the world at testing things and figuring out what they're good for, would do that work for me.

4:34I'm Christine Zier-Closette. I'm Rosie Guerin. And you're listening to The Wirecutter Show.

4:51Rosie. Hi. Hello. Hello. I'm excited about our episode today. I am going to be chatting with Kevin Roos, New York Times tech columnist. He writes about many facets of tech and talks a lot about AI, both in the newspaper and on his New York Times podcast, Hard Fork, which he co-hosts with platformers Casey Newton. Kevin is so great. The podcast is so great. I'm really, really excited you're doing this. I am too. So Kevin and I are going to talk today about something that we haven't covered on this show before, AI, which of course everyone is talking about AI. But the reason we're going to talk about it on the Wirecutter show is because there is this intersection of consumer products and AI at this point.

5:32And especially with these large language models, LLMs, which are the chatbots like ChatGPT and Claude, he knows a lot about all of these. And a lot of people are using them at this point. And so we're going to really dive deep into all of that. And I have to say in this episode, we talk a lot about AI chatbots. So we do need to make the disclosure that we work for the New York Times company, which is suing several companies, Open AI, Microsoft, and perplexity over alleged copyright violations. That's right. And with that, I'm looking forward to hearing you and Kevin discuss AI's changing the way people shop, how it's being integrated in hardware products, and hopefully hearing some of Kevin's best tips on actually using these LLMs smartly and strategically.

6:18I'm really interested in this intersection between AI and Wirecutter. After the break, Kevin Roos.

6:35So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now, a global workforce of 300 ,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94 % of common questions. Not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off. Deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business. IBM. Starting a tech company is thrilling. It's also really messy. Just ask anyone who's done it, or anyone who's tried.

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8:20Welcome back. I am really excited to have Kevin Roos on the show today. Kevin is a technology columnist for The New York Times. He is also the co-host of The New York Times tech podcast, Hard Fork, which he co-hosts with Casey Newton of Platformer. And this is a great podcast if you are curious about what's happening with AI and who isn't curious about that at this point. So welcome to the show, Kevin. It's great to have you here.

8:46Kevin Roose:Thanks so much for having me. I listen to Hard Fork quite a bit. I love the podcast. And I feel like in the early days of ChatGBT a couple years ago, you and Casey were how I was staying up on what was happening with AI. And I will tell you that I kept saying to my bosses at Wirecutter, you guys, have you listened to the newest Hard Fork? And what are we doing about AI? We are doomed. What's going to happen with shopping? And at that point, they were like, you're like Chicken Little. What's wrong with you? So I feel like you have taught me a lot over the last few years. Well, I'm glad. We didn't intend it to be an AI-focused podcast.

9:21Kevin Roose:When we started it, we actually thought it was going to be a crypto-related podcast. And that's why we picked the name Hard Fork, which is sort of an obscure crypto programming term. But, you know, things change. And all of a sudden, we find ourselves in the chat GPT world talking about AI every week. Well, and it's very, very helpful. I am curious, though. You really have taken a hard line, and you're reporting on AI all the time. You're using it all the time. How has AI really impacted your life on an everyday level? Are you using it all the time, or is it something that you're only occasionally using in your personal life?

9:54What are the touch points for you?

9:56Kevin Roose:I use this stuff constantly. I am AI-pilled, as they say. I pay for more subscription AI products than streaming TV services, and I pay for a lot of streaming TV services. I use this stuff probably, you know, dozens of times a day. And what are you using it for? Walk me through a day. How are you interacting on a personal level and I would imagine a professional level too? Yeah, I mean, there's so many things. It's hard for me to even list them all, but here are a few. So I wake up in the morning and I get my AI-generated summary of my email inbox. I use this program called Quora and I have hooked it up to only my personal email.

10:35Kevin Roose:I'm not doing anything like this on my work email, which is more sensitive. But on my personal email, I've hooked this thing up so that it synthesizes and summarizes all of my emails and pre-populates drafts to respond to anything it deems important. Then I'm also constantly using it for things around the house. You could go back through my recent queries, and probably 60 % of them would be some version of like, how do I fix this air fryer? Or how do I install these training wheels on my kid's bike? What is this weird plant in my garden? That kind of thing. And I'm using it for work. I use it for not for writing my columns or my podcast, but for research.

11:20Kevin Roose:I am writing a book right now. And so I am constantly using AI to look things up for me, to help me sort of piece together various primary sources. We could talk about any of that in more detail, but that's sort of how I'm using AI just today, for example. Yeah, I am super curious about that. And we will talk a little bit about that in a bit. And your book, just to be clear, is about AI, right? I mean, it's about like, isn't it kind of like you're writing towards the singularity at the end? Yeah, the book is essentially the story of the race to AGI, which is artificial general intelligence, which is what all of these companies, OpenAI and Google and Anthropic, are now sort of pushing toward this vision of a sort of human-level AI system that can do anything the human brain can.

12:08When you look at the general population, what do you think people are using AI for right now? What are you hearing from your listeners? What are you hearing from people out in the world?

12:18Kevin Roose:So I think it's a really wide mix. I hear from people who are using AI tools for everything from medical research and developing new drugs to doing, you know, story time with their kids. It really runs the gamut. There was a really interesting study that OpenAI's economic research team did this year where they looked at 1.5 million or so conversations with ChatGPT and how people were using it. And they found that the biggest use cases among their study were what they called practical guidance, which is people basically using it to teach them things. You know, how do I fix this appliance? Maybe do some health or fitness coaching.

13:07Kevin Roose:Number two, the second most popular category of use was what they called seeking information, which was sort of as the kind of Google replacement. You know, how do I get to this place or, you know, book me a flight or something like that. And then the third category was writing. So as you would expect, a lot of people are using this stuff to write emails, business memos, to write maybe papers if they're a student, to help them with translation, things like that. So those seem to be the largest categories of use across the user base. I talk to a lot of programmers and a lot of engineers, people who are technical and work in tech.

13:45Kevin Roose:And so I'm just hearing the craziest stories about how people are incorporating this stuff into their work life. The programmers I talk to, because these tools have gotten quite good at writing code, they'll tell me, like, I don't even really code anymore. I just supervise and orchestrate kind of this little team of AI coders. And my job is sort of reviewing their output and stepping in when necessary. But basically, I sort of like set them off on a task and then I go make myself a cup of coffee. Something that you didn't mention is companionship. Recently on your show, you've been talking about Character AI, which is a site that people can have sort of a relationship or a conversation with user-generated characters.

14:29stricters. How much do you think people are really using AI at this point as a relationship?

14:35Kevin Roose:I think it depends. You know, in the study that I mentioned, companionship was not one of the sort of top usage categories. But I think that maybe undercounts the number of people who actually do feel somewhat attached to these products on an emotional level. Maybe they wouldn't go so far us to say, like, I have an AI boyfriend or I have an AI friend, but, you know, they sort of rely on this stuff. I'm thinking in particular of conversations I've had recently with young people who say like, oh, yeah, I talk about like chat as if it's just my friend, even though that they know it's not a human, but they do feel connected to it.

15:13Kevin Roose:So I think there's also a big generational piece of this. I am an adult. I have too many, you know, human friends to keep up with. But I think if you're a teenager, this stuff is coming on really strong and really fast. And I think that's one of the most underappreciated parts of this AI revolution is that a year or two ago, barely any teenagers would have said, I have an AI friend. And now something like half of teenagers are regular users of these AI companion products. Yeah, that's wild to me. I'm a parent of a 12-year-old, and I know that she uses chatbots sometimes to kind of navigate tricky social-emotional situations with her middle school friends, which, I mean, that's just like a whole world that if anybody remembers being in middle school, there's so much drama.

15:59I don't know that she's using anything that's an actual character that she has a relationship with. I think there's probably, would you say there's like a distinction there between typing into chat GPT versus using like a service where you've got a character that you've got a relationship with? Or is it kind of blurry? Is that line blurry?

16:17Kevin Roose:I think that line is blurring. It used to be that the sort of mainstream chatbots were all very like formal and businesslike. And it sort of sounded like you were talking to like a, you know, a Wikipedia article. But now these companies have made strides towards making their chatbots more personable. So they, you know, Sam Altman at OpenAI just recently said, you know, they want to make this a pleasant experience for people. They're going to even let, you know, adults do sort of erotic conversation with their chatbots. So these companies, I think, are all trying to figure out what their lines are.

16:50Kevin Roose:But yeah, I think the difference between sort of the mainstream chatbots and these more tailored companionship products is getting more blurry by the day. I'm curious. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, ask me. How do you feel about your 12-year-old using AI for this kind of middle school drama? It's interesting because I sometimes feel like it's fine. And I have actually used it to navigate friend drama or family drama. And so I think she's seen me doing it and thought, oh, I should do that. I do go over and read what it has said just to make sure that—and she's pretty open with me. If my kid were not very open or I didn't have confidence that she was sharing what it was telling her, I might have more concerns.

17:31But so far, the advice seems to be pretty boilerplate. It doesn't seem to be problematic. But I think it's an interesting use case for sure.

17:39Kevin Roose:I think this is really tricky because I remember being 12. I had, you know, not the easiest time in middle school, and I don't think anyone has an easy time in middle school. But I think if I were 12 and these chatbots had existed, I would have been tempted to spend a lot of time chatting with them, maybe more time than was healthy for me. And I think it really, it sort of matters what kids are talking about with these chatbots, but it also matters whether they're using them as substitutes for some real-world human connection that might actually be more fulfilling, even if it's less efficient or less sort of reliably available to them.

18:18Yeah, that I think is a great point. I will also say she uses it to be her stylist. She asks it about wardrobe advice, which I think is pretty hilarious and awesome. She's well-dressed.

18:32I do want to ask you about the different chatbots because you have used a ton of these. I think a lot of listeners will have probably used some of them, whether it's ChatGPT or Clot or Gemini. I think you've talked with my colleague Jason Chen about, you know, maybe Wirecutter should do a review of these. We're not quite sure yet. It seems like they're just changing so quickly. If you were to do a Wirecutter guide, which ones would you recommend and why and for who? because it seems like different chatbots are better for different tasks, essentially.

19:03Kevin Roose:They definitely are. And I'm happy to walk you through my current feelings on this, but let me just make my case to you directly since I have you. Here's why Wirecutter should review large language models. For me, I need this desperately. I rely on Wirecutter before I buy anything. A spatula for my kitchen. I look up the Wirecutter review. And I am desperate for someone to tell me which language models are good for which things, because otherwise I am spending so much money on these things, and I'm spending all this time trying to figure out what is good for what, and I would just love it if you all, who are the experts in the world at testing things and figuring out what they're good for, would do that work for me.

19:43Kevin Roose:So it would be a huge personal favor to me if you would do this. Now, I realize that is not a reason to, you know, make editorial strategy decisions. You all are very capable of running your own website, but that is my case for why Wirecutter should review AI products. It's a convincing case. Now, here is my current setup. This could change in a week. It probably will change in a week. These things, as you said, do fluctuate so wildly, release by release, week by week, update by update, that I often find that the tool that serves me well one week is no longer the right tool the next week. So here, as of this recording, is what I'm using.

20:20Kevin Roose:Right now, I am using Perplexity's Comet browser. That is an AI-powered browser based on Chrome, but sort of with some additional AI features built into it. I use Claude from Anthropic for my sort of daily driver AI model, mostly with creative work, coding. To the extent I'm coding, I use Claude for that. And then what I call like matters of the heart, like things that I need advice on, things that I'm struggling with or navigating in my personal life, advice on relationships or parenting, that kind of thing. I use Cloud for that. I find it has like a higher level of like what you could call emotional intelligence or some convincing replica of that.

21:06Kevin Roose:I use Google's Gemini for research and for working with big chunks of text. and I use a separate Google product called Notebook LM for my book. Notebook LM basically allows you to dump a bunch of documents into a single notebook and then kind of chat with them. So I put all my research materials for my book into one giant Notebook LM, and then I can just ask it questions. I can say, oh, who were the three people at this meeting in 2019? Or who would be six good people to interview about this topic? or who was the person who said that thing that I forget now, but that I think it had something to do with this.