Jimmy Fallon and Bozoma Saint John on What It Takes for People, Products, and Brands to Break Through

0:27I'm Alison Beard. And I'm Adi Ignatius, and this is HBR IdeaCast.

0:39So Adi, you are very familiar with both of the guests on today's show. One is a comedian and talk show host, Jimmy Fallon. The other is a marketing executive turned reality TV star, Bozema St. John. But what they have in common beyond TV is an expertise on how to create breakthrough moments for themselves, their offerings, and all of the brands that they're associated with. And we know that's really important now because it's an increasingly crowded, complex, confusing media and advertising market. Yeah, when you first told me you were going to interview Jimmy and Bozeman, my first thought was, okay, that's pretty interesting.

1:15You know, I've interviewed Boz. She's incredible. She was an executive at Pepsi, at Apple, at Netflix. So, you know, I get what she's all about. Jimmy Fallon, I watched him on Saturday Night Live. I've watched him on The Tonight Show. He's energetic. He's entertaining. I'd be interested, what does he know about this? What does he have to say about marketing? They're both people who, over the course of their long careers, in different ways, have shown a really uncanny ability to adapt to new trends, particularly technological ones, and keep capturing the attention and imagination of diverse consumers.

1:52Most recently, they've teamed up for a reality competition show called On Brand. It's sort of like Shark Tank, but it's amateur creatives competing to design ad campaigns for companies like Dunkin' and Southwest. And I would say that the show vastly oversimplifies the business of marketing. But it is an interesting tool in and of itself because each episode functions as an ad because it's totally about one company. But it was a really good reason for getting them onto our show to talk about lots of issues, not just branding. Yeah, no, I'm sure. Look, I mean, they're both incredibly energetic and incredibly entertaining, have an audience.

2:30You know, I'm interested. What were some of those issues? Yeah. So in addition to talking about how to market companies and products, we talked about how to market yourself, you know, in your career. We talked about how they show up as leaders of creative teams and balance sort of having strong points of view with being collaborative. We talked about how they innovate on different platforms like TikTok and YouTube. And then what type of marketing really does break through. Here is that interview with Bozema St. John, the former CMO of Netflix, and Jimmy Fallon, host of The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon.

3:06Together, they host On Brand. The entertainment, media and marketing industries have changed dramatically since both of you started your careers. You know, there was cable and then Internet and then streaming and then social. So what would you say is really the secret to capturing attention now? You know, whether it's an individual or a show or a corporate brand. Sure. I mean, God, you made it sound like we started the Stone Ages, girl. I mean, that's when I started. So I'm like, speak for yourself. No, but you're right. Look, the landscape has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. Right.

3:44The way that consumers like listen to entertainment or watch entertainment has changed. I find that, you know, being on top of just what people are communicating with each other is the only way in which you can be part of the conversation. You know, whether you're a brand or an individual, a show like ours. I mean, obviously, Jimmy is on TV every day. And so he has the pressure of being able to evolve so that he can continue to keep the audience that he has. So I guess my perspective is just from a brand lens, you know, which is that in order to stay relevant, you really do have to pay attention to the time.

4:20Yeah, I think it changes day by day by day by day. You never really can. And there's probably like a couple of weeks where you're like, hey, this is where everyone's going. And then it changes like, nope, they invented a new thing called flip flop. Everyone's on flip flop. And you go, what? I didn't even heard of that. And they go, oh, you got to sign up. You're late to the game. But it's always changing. And I'm always interested in seeing what the next moves are. Especially social media. When we first started late night, I remember one of our producers, Gavin Purcell, who's fantastic. He was like, you got to get on Twitter.

4:50And I was like, what is that? He's like, well, it's this thing. And he's explaining Twitter to me. You know, I go, OK. And then I'm like, and we'll put our shows on Twitter. He's like, yeah, we can do streaming shows just before we even start up late night just to get a following going. And I remember getting like, maybe 100 followers. And I was jumping up and down. I was that into it. I love metrics. I love data. I love to see how things go up or down or sideways or what type of people are listening or retweeting or we just jumped on and tried everything when it comes out and see if it works for you.

5:22And you kind of have to learn it and adapt to it. And I think number one is still YouTube, you know, as far as growth and how much engagement with everybody. It's just the biggest thing. And I don't know if there's anything close. Yeah. When you have, though, all these channels, you know, varying in popularity, but all the smart people and shows and brands are on them or trying all of them. How do you craft either a persona or a campaign that can break through all of that noise? Hmm. I think some of it has to be consistency. You know, just back to the last question. I also want to give props to Jimmy himself as a person, because he really does throw himself into the creative and into the work, you know?

6:06So yeah, social media is a powerful tool, but without him actually being in it and, you know, doing the trend every day. My point is that like, it's not just like, oh, there's this tool and this platform out there and, you know, try to engage on it. Jimmy is putting himself in the work. And I think that's actually necessary, whether it's a show or a brand, the consistency is how you show up. If every day you're trying to be something different on the platform, nobody's going to trust you. You know, people don't like that. I think that's also how you find your brand. Yeah. You know, by trying everything on, you go, hey, do I wear bangs?

6:43Do I, you know, do I have a bob? Do I have a short hair? You have to try it to see if that's your style. And you go, hey, I think I found my style, everybody. I think for me growing up I was a very fad type of person I was right into fads and trying new things and I was wearing you know zipper pants this is in the 80s jams jams it's the best I love my jams oh my gosh yeah that generation I feel like they were just fads there were things that were in for like two years and then out even the music in the 80s it's like a lot more one-hit wonders I think than any decade but that was because everyone's trying new things and seeing what's happened so I think my brain growing up in that generation of having one-offs and one-hit wonders and things constantly changing and what am I into probably influenced who I am today and how I can function with changing things and are you good with change a lot of people aren't good with change you know and it freaks people out and they go I can't have a new office I'm used to my old office you go different platform same person yeah yeah yeah I think so but like Bozeman was saying you you have to try and you got to get up to bat and swing.

7:49And sometimes you hit a home run, sometimes you strike out, but at least you're trying. Both of you have very strong personal brands. And I think a lot of that comes from authenticity. But how did you think about that as sort of you built your careers? Bozma for you in marketing with big jobs at Pepsi and Uber and Apple and Netflix, and Jimmy for you with moving from standup to SNL to films and then late night? A personal brand is such an interesting thing because many people will say that like, oh, that's like a waste of time, especially if you're in corporate settings. But really, it's just new language for what a reputation is.

8:30When I started out in this business, of course, I was trying to mimic the successful people ahead of me. You know, it's like I looked at the corner offices and said, okay, what are they wearing? How do they talk in meetings? What are the ideas they bring? Like, how do they do the thing they do? And why do people listen to them? And I just tried to mimic it. Unfortunately, that did not work, you know, and it didn't work for all the reasons that now as more mature adults, we know is because it just didn't fit, you know, and you can't be authentic. And I know it's an overused word, but like we were saying before, even as Jimmy explained about, you know, trying things on and seeing what fits.

9:07For me, it was like this unraveling of who I was trying to be versus who I am. My personal brand became what it is and is because it's actually just me. You know, it's like I do wear interesting clothes and I do gesture a lot with my hands and I cry because I get emotional and my hair is always something different. All of those things allow me the freedom to be exactly who I am in every room. And it has made me a better executive. It has made me a better mother. It's made me a better friend. It's made me a better contributor to society and a better creative for all those reasons. And so I think the personal brand gets a little confused sometimes because people are trying to strategize around it.

9:51And I'm like, no, if you just become more of yourself, then that actually will sustain over time. Is it because people can trust you? Yeah, right. Because then you never come out of character. You know what I mean? Yeah. I forget who said, but someone said, yeah. God, I always tell the truth because it's too much work to lie. Mm-hmm. It's too hard. What about you, Jimmy? I think when I first started out, I was just hungry, and I was focused on getting on Saturday Night Live. That was my goal. So I did stand up, and I did impressions of celebrities because I knew that Saturday Night Live used those people on the show to do characters and impressions.

10:27So that was going to be my way into Saturday Night Live. In my stand-up, I would do impressions of like John Travolta. You know, I'd be like, she's like, swear to God, I can't believe this over here. Like, Sandy, what's going on? Right. I'd like do, and I don't know why, but that led to other characters, which led to me doing Adam Sandler, where it's like, and you do all that type of stuff. And then you go, oh, that's stuff we can maybe use. You know, and I just think that was my ultimate goal, just getting into Siren Live. And let's just check that off. That's like the bucket list. but that was my goal.

11:01And I got that at 23. And then once you get it, you go, okay, now what do I do with this? Because I didn't plan ahead. I didn't have three other goals. That was it for me. I'm like, uh-oh, I got to figure out what my next goal is. So do you want to be a movie star? Do you want to be a sitcom star? Do you want to record music? What is your thing? So I've kind of had to think of a new goal and kind of find it as I was going and see if it kind of fit. But I think always for me, as far as material-wise, it was very family-friendly. I never really cursed in my actor. I was kind of almost prudish. I think it was my Irish Catholic upbringing, but that's not really changed for me.

11:43So that kind of stayed on brand. But I think I kind of just grew and said, well, maybe I can do this. And then if that didn't work out, I tried movies. They didn't really work. and then you just kind of go back to like just trying stuff and seeing what sticks and you know getting into the talk show world I didn't really know what I was doing either there but you know I got a lot of practice and I was on at 12 30 at night where no one was watching you know a few people were watching yeah maybe like prison guards uh and college kids but I mean we we why I had to do that and kind of figure out there how to have an interview how to talk to somebody am I nervous I still get nervous, but it's fun.

12:24It's because I care, I think, and I want to do a great job. But you get another opportunity, and then you grow, and you see how you can do that best. It sounds like you both very much found your distinct lanes, despite the fact that you're both in crowded fields. How would each of you describe your leadership brand? Because you're both bosses. You're running organizations, you're running shows, you're running teams of people. What is your unique style or the unique thing that you bring? Boz is better at this than I am. My leadership is good. No, but you are an informal leader, even if you're not called the CEO of The Tonight Show.

12:59Yeah, but he's still my boss. I mean, I still consider him my boss, honestly. So hell, you're a leader of me, if nothing else, okay? Yeah, come on. But you have that feeling when you get in the room with Bozeman St. John, you go, whoa. She's in charge. Yeah, well, you feel like someone smart is in the room. I'm here, it's like, oh my gosh, we have a you know uncle buck is here oh my god you're so ridiculous substitute teachers here i'm always reading books and i'd be curious to ask you also what books i should read to like for management and i i love all that stuff and i love self-help books and learning constantly about how to do it better yeah and even if not remind yourself of what works and what doesn't work like being mad doesn't work i know that so it doesn't work um it just doesn't right It's so interesting.

13:50I think my leadership style has has changed, of course, over years and, you know, different experiences like the way that I led my Apple music team in launching the the brand and the service itself was far different from the way I led when I became chief marketing officer of Netflix. One, because they were so different in terms of not just the product, but the time. You know, I started Netflix. We were two months into the pandemic. And I remember my first staff meeting. I mean, there's like well over a thousand marketers and I didn't see anybody's face. And I think I'm the kind of leader that does need to be in the room.

14:28You know, I like to be in front of people. I want to see your face and your reaction and see if what I'm saying is inspiring. Is it funny? Are you confused by what I'm saying? I need all of that. A reaction. Yeah, I need something, you know, and it was such an impossible time of trying to inspire people to be more creative and think out of the box and like all of the things that we say at a time when nobody knew what the hell was going on. But the constant theme throughout, I think for me in leadership has always been knowing the detail, you know, of what is going on, like understanding what people are interested in on my teams, you know, because the challenges that you put all of the pressure on the results and you don't think about the people.

15:16and I have had the kind of career where in order to really do the work, we had to be so close to culture. I needed different types of people on my team, people who didn't know what I know. I take a lot from physics, you know, which is like the idea of matter. Matter is made up of molecules and you change one molecule and the entire matter changes. For me, I'm like, matter is a team, you know, the people that I'm working with and you change one molecule and the whole thing changes. And so understanding the importance of every single person who is contributing, they can be the assistant or they could be the SVP of a region, like their contributions are so important.

16:01So making people know that so that they want to show up to their job, they want to do the best job that they could do because they know how important they are. Because I told them And that has been a constant leadership tool for me. I love that. Also, what you just said, too, like also showing up, I think is one thing that you learn as the more you do this is that all the great leaders show up. Yes. Whether it's a restaurant. Yeah. You know, I've seen restaurants fail all because you go, hey, we had a great year. I don't have to go in anymore. Yeah. Wait, Jimmy, I'm going to interrupt you one second, because like, actually, I have a story about Jimmy on like his leadership.

16:37And this is going to embarrass you. So whatever. but you just got to deal with it. We had over 270 crew members, I think, on on brand. I've always felt that I'm a friendly person. I see people, I say hello, all of that stuff. But I've never seen anyone do it like Jimmy does. We were walking onto set one day and somebody was nailing something on a wall, bent over in the corner. And Jimmy was like, hey, bud, you're doing a great job. I've never seen anybody do that in my life. You know what I mean? Just paying attention to the small things and the showing up is also in recognizing people's contributions and so for jimmy i think leadership is not just like how he commands a production to be done or like his contributions to like oh let's use this line or or change this word but also making people feel like they are part of something even bigger and that they're important And I saw that in action.

17:35Yeah, it sounds like the sort of infectious spirit that you sort of bring to the show, you know, to public facing engagements. You're also practicing behind the scenes. Did you learn that leadership style? You know, the idea of keeping it fun, of showing gratitude to even the smallest players. Did you learn that on SNL from people like Lorne Michaels? Lorne Michaels, yeah, definitely. I think that's one of the things I learned from him is showing up and, you know, just being there for everybody. I think as the part of gratitude, one of my biggest lessons I learned from Cameron Crowe, who's a great writer director, but he directed me.

18:14I was in almost famous. You can cue the applause now. You're going to go straight to fever pitch, but okay. No, I'll start with, I'll start with my first one. I'll go into my filmography after that. This, this podcast is three hours, right? All right. Perfect. So I remember I was on set and I saw Cameron giving notes to this extra and he was like, okay, you had a long day. Okay, you got three more tables and then you get to go home. Just giving direction to this extra and then they did action and the extra didn't have any lines. Yeah. Just in the background. Yeah. And I was like, whoa, no one was looking at him.

18:50He was just him and this extra talking. And he made that person feel like a million bucks. And that made everybody go like, we're all doing this. Everybody's worth something here. This is awesome. And I'll never forget that. And it was the coolest thing that he did. So I think combo of that and, you know, Lorne Michaels and Sarrant Live and I think all the different hosts that come in on Sarrant Live too and talking to all them and just seeing how. Some people brought that sort of positive addition to the matter that Bose was talking about. Yeah. And caring. Yeah. And just going, oh, that was great what you did.

19:23I like that. Or when these celebrities host Saturday Night Live, they're coming to a place that they're not used to. So if you have Robert De Niro, for example, I remember him asking me where his mark was. Jimmy, where's my mark? I'm like, I'm not going to tell Robert De Niro anything. You can stand wherever you want, dude. I'm good. He's like, no, I don't really know because I've never done this. And I go, oh, it's right there. and then you're going to land, you're going to say the lines facing that way. He's like, okay, cool. Like, just like help each other. We're on the team now. I'm like, I just gave direction to Robert De Niro.

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21:11So we all know that sort of the best creative teams come from putting people together with diverse points of view and everyone sharing their ideas and brainstorming together. But how do you all as strong personalities with good ideas, I imagine, because you've been very successful, how do you balance sort of expressing your own opinions, putting your own stamp on things with also working collaboratively and bringing in the opinions of others? That's a tough one. Yeah, that's a good one. For me, I get very passionate in every job I've had, passionate about how the things should land because I'm like, oh, I know that's going to garner results.

21:52Sometimes I've been wrong, but I always have a strong point of view. I'm thinking back to times when it's like, look, as part of a creative team, you do have to follow the direction of whomever is in charge. It's kind of like a coach or a general or something. Like if everybody doesn't fall in line, it's liable that you go wrong, you know? And so at some point as a creative, you can have a strong idea. You can think it's the best one. But if it is not the one that goes forward, you have to submit and help the next person. And so back to your question about leadership, it is something I've always encouraged my teams.

22:31Once I've been in the seat as the CMO to decide which idea goes forward, and now everybody get behind that idea. Disagree and then commit. Oh, you know, we should have done this, should have done that. That's when we're all going to fail. So it's like once an idea has been chosen to go forward, everybody put your energy into making sure that that idea is what wins. How do you steer people with good, well-meaning ideas in better directions? This is just me, but I always like to say at least my point of view on something, just to say it. And then there's probably someone in the room that might be better at whatever the thing is, and I'll let them hear my idea and hopefully it sparks something that they can land the plane.

23:12And I don't need to take credit for it. For instance, Southwest, we did this episode last night that you watched, but the challenge was to wrap a plane, basically paint the side of an airplane. So it's a big thing. And we're going, well, blah, blah, blah. How do you do that? Well, this is gonna be seen by a lot of people. And then Bozma goes, well, when I wrapped a plane for Beats, I go, you wrapped a plane? Who else? I mean, that's, we're talking to someone who's done this. How many people do you know that wrapped a plane before? I mean, what are you talking about? I don't. And it was just, yeah, I know, now you do.

23:44Now you know two people. But I mean, it's wild. It was like, she's done this. What hits? What do people look at? You know, what do they see? What are the things that pop? And you kind of go, that's great. We have someone that's played the game before. So, Jimmy, why at this point in your career did you feel qualified to host a show on branding and marketing? I think because of all the years of, you know, Late Night and Tonight Show and my job is basically selling things, you know, for my guests. I have them on and I pitch their movies or their music or, you know, I'm selling their wares, their products.

24:25because I've kind of enjoyed it when we have an integration or some brand goes, hey, is there any way you can mention toilet paper this week in the show? I go, love it. Bring it on. What do you want? I can write whatever I want, right? I go, I will think of something. And then I go, yeah. And we'll talk about, hey, do you put the toilet paper roll over the top or do you put the toilet paper roll with the paper coming under? And you have a debate and people get in fights and it's funny. And that's a fun challenge. I've done that for the past 15 years. So that's a long time. A lot of shows. I think Tonight Show's hitting almost like it's a 2 ,300th show or something crazy.

25:02Oh, my God. So I kind of love the stuff. And I had a weird, again, just an odd idea. And I don't like to throw them out. So I pitched it to NBC. I typed it up. You know, bothered my wife with all these questions for like months. And then I go, I think this is something I could pitch. And I pitched it to NBC. and they said no but thank you so much you keep these ideas coming buddy and stay strong at late night and you go okay uh and then and then i was like i didn't let it die i was like i really do think this is something you should give it a chance to i think it's different and as bozeman was saying we were talking about this and we're like because it's a brand new type of business structure even to paying for the show and all this stuff but also what bozo was saying it's kind of like a new playground.

25:48It's a new toy to play with for brands. Like, how much fun can we have? Yeah, the companies are sort of sponsoring each episode, basically. And so the advertisement isn't necessarily what's generated by the contestants. It's the show itself. I also want to say that I know Jimmy, he, you know, has done a lot of work with brands, but he's also a student of marketing. We were just on a show together where, you know, we're playing a little quiz game of like, oh, the taglines and this and that. And Jimmy, you know, he was getting them. And not only like he's got the jingles and he remembers. And so it's like for someone who hasn't had a formal career in marketing, he's still an ad guy.