Epstein survivor reacts to former Prince Andrew’s arrest

0:03I think that what we are seeing happening over in the UK is a signal of things that can start to happen in the United States. Liz Stein, a survivor of abuse by Jeffrey Epstein, says the arrest of former Prince Andrew shows powerful people can be held accountable.

0:33It's Thursday, February 19th, and this is Here and Now, Anytime from NPR and WVUR. I'm Chris Bentley.

0:43Today on the show, Mark Zuckerberg takes the witness stand. Also, some people on GLP-1 meds for diabetes or weight loss have reported losing cravings or urges for more than food. Psychiatrists say it's opening up new frontiers for understanding and treating addiction. We're learning things that can help people. and maybe we'll get to the point where we'll actually have new treatments. And I think all that gives you reason for optimism.

1:19That story coming up in about 15 minutes. But first, a powerful man from Jeffrey Epstein's orbit has been arrested, but not in the U.S. In Norfolk, England this morning, British police arrested the former Prince Andrew. He's the brother of King Charles. CNN's Max Foster spoke to Scott Tong from just outside Buckingham Palace in London earlier. He explained more about the reason for the former Prince Andrew's arrest, suspicion of misconduct in public office. It's an abusive position. So you're given a public role and you do something which isn't in the public interest, which is why it's so difficult to prove.

2:01But it would be, for example, being given government documents because of the privilege of your position and sharing those outside the government, which was the initial allegation here, though we haven't had the specifics of what he's being arrested for in this particular event. Now, this seems prompted by new revelations from the Epstein files and new millions of documents dropped from the Justice Department here in the States. Just stepping back, remind us what we know. about the former Prince Andrews' relationship with Epstein? Well, we know that he had a friendship with Epstein, which is why he had to give up his initial role as trade envoy all those years ago.

2:43And then there was a constant drip, drip, drip of new allegations. And then we have the sexual misconduct allegations, which are separate to what's being investigated here. But this was Virginia Dufresne accusing him of sexual abuse. He always denied that, but he did settle with her out of court. And then after that, the constant more allegations, more allegations. And then the latest drop, the thing that stood out that we've seen so far, is that he was forwarding internal secret government documents to Epstein, which were market sensitive and that Epstein could have traded on. So a lot of this, whilst the palace is trying to distance itself as much as possible from, At the time, he was very much a senior working role receiving public money.

3:33So there is some accountability here to the monarchy under Queen Elizabeth II, who clearly wasn't aware of what was going on in her family, her firm. but at the same time, if she didn't know, then why didn't she know? So lots of questions are coming up around her monarchy. Charles has been much more forthright about dealing with this. All right. CNN's Max Foster outside Buckingham Palace. Max, thank you. Thanks, Scott. We also called up Liz Stein for her thoughts on the news. She's an Epstein survivor here in the U.S. and an anti-trafficking advocate. She spoke to Peter O'Dowd. This is really monumental.

4:17I think that we're looking at Andrew having been arrested for his misconduct as trade envoy. It really shows us kind of the depth of the criminal enterprise that Jeffrey Epstein was involved in. For people who aren't familiar with your own personal story in this case, I just want to be clear. You never had contact, any contact with the former Prince Andrew. Is that true? No, I did not. Okay. He has, as you know, been shunned by the monarchy, but he's still very well known and once a very powerful man. Do you feel confident that his case is going to be handled appropriately by the justice system in the United Kingdom?

4:58I think that we are seeing the justice system in the United Kingdom behave very differently from the way that the justice system in the United States is behaving, at least to date. And so I think that when we see the British prime minister saying that nobody is above the law when he's referring to Andrew, and we're seeing King Charles say things like the law must take its course and victims come first, I think that we have we definitely have faith that the British government is going to see justice. As you mentioned, the police are looking into whether Andrew sent confidential reports to Epstein in 2010.

5:38That's when he was Britain's special envoy for international trade. What does that tell you about the level of influence that Epstein had over the people in his network? I think that as we are going through these files, we are seeing more and more how Jeffrey Epstein really brokered in relationships and how many of these men saw Epstein not only as someone who could advise them, but someone who they could share confidences with, things that they might not share with anyone else. And so when we look at the bigger picture of the Epstein case, we're looking at a criminal enterprise. Sex trafficking was one of the crimes that was committed, but we're now seeing as things unravel, in the case of Andrew, that there was potentially some insider trading activity.

6:35And I think that as we come to know more about what happened with Jeffrey Epstein, we're going to see these relationships that he had with people in business, and we're going to see some interaction between them that, you know, can really blur on the line of legality. This is something that many of us are learning by reading these documents that have been released by the federal government. But was the level of this connection, this networking, this circle of power and elites, is this something that you, though I'm sure you were much younger, is that something that you felt and experienced? Were you able to understand that at all?

7:17Well, at 21 years old, I certainly did not understand it in the way that I understand it now as a 53-year-old woman. But I can tell you that Jeffrey made it very clear the people that he knew, the people that he was connected to, and the power that they held. And also really used those things as a way to coerce us and to ensure our silence. because who would believe us if we were making accusations against these people? And so it was a very palpable feeling that I had when I was involved with Epstein and Maxwell. But we're now just seeing the extent of what that looked like. And I think that it's shocking to everyone.

8:04Here in the U.S., some rich and powerful people have had to step down from their jobs or their positions because of their close ties to Epstein. So far, no arrests. How does that sit with you? I think that we're all disappointed at the way that the Department of Justice has handled this case to date. But we're seeing things starting to happen. I think that what we are seeing happening over in the UK is a signal of things that can start to happen in the United States. I think that people are now really having a better understanding of why we feel so outraged over how this has been handled. And so I think that what we're starting to see happening in Europe, not just in England, but across Europe and the beginning of some resignations in the United States is just the beginning of what I hope will be a much larger, a much larger holding of holding accountability for the people who perpetrated these crimes.

9:14Liz Stein is an Epstein survivor, an anti-trafficking advocate, responding to the news that the former Prince Andrew has been arrested in the United Kingdom for his ties to Jeffrey Epstein. Liz, thank you so much. Thank you. Coming up next, a lawsuit accuses Meta of intentionally designing platforms like Instagram to be addictive to kids. Peter O'Dowd has that story in just a minute.

9:43Thank you.

10:13health, your lifestyle, and your budget. And they work for you for free. Get the right life insurance for you and save more than 50 % at selectquote.com slash anytime. That's 50 % off at selectquote.com slash anytime. One of this country's most powerful men went before a jury in Los Angeles yesterday. Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg was there to defend his company against claims that apps like Instagram are designed to hook young users. Sonia Sharp at the LA Times is covering the case. She was in the courthouse. Sonia, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Before we get started, I need to say that Meta and Google, which owns YouTube, are financial supporters of NPR.

10:55But Sonia, at issue here is whether these social media apps are harming kids by getting them hooked onto the platforms. Tell me more about the allegations and the central questions in this case. Yeah, so this is the first in just a tremendous number of lawsuits that have been consolidated together. And this particular bellwether is about social media addiction. And so a lot of what the plaintiff is trying to prove here is that, in fact, these apps were designed specifically to, as you said, hook young users, so tweens, right, and keep them on the app for a long time. And that's a lot of what was at issue yesterday when Mark Zuckerberg was in court.

11:37So was there anything in Zuckerberg's testimony that would tell us what Meta knew about the potential risks to children? Certainly. I mean, you know, of course, Mark Zuckerberg is there defending Instagram, defending Meta. He was very forceful about pushing back on the idea that social media addiction exists, pushing back on the idea that they have any evidence that social media causes harm to young people, pushing back on the allegations that they, you know, went after younger users. He was emphatic multiple times. Kids under 13 are not allowed to use Instagram. But they were very – he was also asked to look at internal metadocuments that are public record now for the first time and a lot of those did seem to contradict what he was saying and what he had told Congress.

12:25Yes. To be more specific, I'm looking at a reference to one of those documents. He received a report showing that about a third of all 10 to 12 year olds in the country, 4 million kids, and this was in 2015, 4 million kids were on Instagram, which would have violated, I believe, the company's policy. So how did that happen? Yeah, well, I mean, that's a great question and one that unfortunately we didn't get really compelling answers to, I would say. You know, again, Zuckerberg is emphatic. We don't have a way to know that kids are underage and when we do know that we do take them off and we're working harder to do this.

13:01But, you know, I think anybody who has kids who are under 13, little kids are little kids. And it's actually not super hard, at least at an individual level, to tell who a child is. And also there have been pushes for a long time, different mechanisms of regulation that these companies have been asked to do or have been kind of – there's even been proposed regulation around it. And they've really resisted it. So I kind of – I was watching in court. I mean Zuckerberg also mentioned, well, the phone makers could do X, Y, Z that would make it easier for us to get underage people. And I think that's true.

13:39I think there's – I don't doubt that that's accurate. I just think that for one of the richest and most powerful men in the world to sit there and say that, you know, he couldn't get his buddy Tim Cook to get on board with this feels a little bit disingenuous because, again, these are companies, Meta included, that are spending tons of money both in state and federal politics to avoid exactly this type of regulation. You know, I'm curious, you were in the room there watching, what was his demeanor on the stand as he tried to answer some of these tough questions? Because he has historically not, even to his own admission, I think, not been very smooth or smooth trying to answer those questions.

14:17I mean, that was one of the things that came up in court, right, is they, you know, the plaintiff's lawyer was pressing him on his media training. And he made this aside to the jury about, you know, I'm very famously not good at this, which was kind of comic. It was one of the few laugh lines that we got in court yesterday. But I think, you know, we've seen different faces of Mark Zuckerberg. He's been a public person for 20 years. This was, you know, a lot of us were watching which Mark will show up, right? And this, to me, felt much more like the Mark Zuckerberg we saw right after Trump's election in 24, where we get the gold chain and the kind of more bro-y combative attitude.

14:55This was a pretty pugnacious and punchy Mark Zuckerberg, as opposed to the one that was before Congress, I think, in 24. It was a little bit more reserved and apologetic. So it was interesting. He was pretty forceful. People who were watching the Olympics over the last few days may have actually seen ads advertising Meta's safety features for teens. Very interesting timing here. How do you think Meta is trying to respond to this trial from a public relations perspective? I think that's a great question. And I think that's kind of the million dollar question, especially again, because this is the first time that Mark Zuckerberg has been for a jury.

15:36And even though, you know, millions and billions of people use these apps, like their founder, or that, you know, the head of Meta, Mark Zuckerberg is not a particularly popular person. And so I think having him very publicly be defending these products in court cuts against the image that they would like to have publicly again, especially as they are moving to have greater political influence, both at the federal and the local level, especially as they're moving more aggressively into AI. I think there is a lot of desire to kind of clean up that part of their image. And also, I will say, as the parent of a 10-year-old, people in my son's circle, right, parents of kids my son's age, have a really difficult, you know, they have a much more combative relationship, I would say, with these apps, or much more suspicious relationship.

16:35Yeah. Sonia Sharp, reporter for the Los Angeles Times. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

16:52Before we get to our last story on today's show, let me take a minute and ask for some help with an upcoming segment. Next week is President Trump's State of the Union address, Tuesday, February 24th. And we want to know, if you were the president, what would be your goal in the next year? Tell us what your priority for the country is over the next year, and why. Go to hereandnow.org slash stateoftheunion. That's H-E-R-E and now.org slash stateoftheunion. And let us know. We might use your comments on the radio or in this podcast. Thanks. Coming up next, GLP-1 drugs are currently prescribed primarily to treat diabetes.

17:36Many people have had success taking them to lose weight, and scientists have been looking into the possibility that they might be effective at treating other things as well, including addiction. More on that after the break.

18:07GLP-1 medications like Ozempic and Wagovi have revolutionized weight loss, but doctors think they might also be able to help reduce cravings for drugs and alcohol. Dr. Mark Gold is an addiction specialist, and he tells Peter O'Dowd, GLP-1s are changing his perspective even after decades studying addiction. Well, it's just really so interesting, and I've worked on this for such a long time. Really, beginning in the early 2000s, we were working on what's the relationship between drugs of abuse and food. And we identified a number of things that are important today. One of them is that if you're on drugs, you generally lose your appetite, and if you had an addiction and withdraw, you gain it back.

18:55And so we knew that drugs and food work in the brain around the same pleasure pathways. We didn't really know anything about how this could happen. But really, the GOP-1's side effect was some people reported that they lost interest in smoking. Other people reported that they lost interest in drinking or drank less. Other people reported that they stopped using pornographic sites on the Internet. And this led people to say, well, gee, this side effect may be an important effect and we should examine it. And that's led to a whole series of controlled experiments on this interaction. And have those experiments given us any idea how much those cravings are reduced?

19:49Yes. So we know that people who are being treated with Ozempic-like drugs lose interest in drinking, and there's a reduction in binge drinking, reduction in total amount of drinking, as well as some decrease in smoking. It doesn't eliminate it, but it acts in many ways like one of the treatments that we use right now called naltrexone for alcohol use disorder, where it doesn't stop you from drinking, but you drink less. Your piece this week in Psychology Today says that 2 ,500 years ago, people were thinking about this in Greece. Hippocrates, the father of medicine, said that all diseases begin in the gut.

20:33Just talk more about that connection between the gut and the brain in this case. It's just amazing. And the gut and brain communicate, we know that, via the vagus nerve. And there's been a lot of experiments on that. And there's been a lot of reason to think the vagus nerve was important and the gut important and mood and even neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson's disease, for example. There's good reason to believe that this is going to be important because even the And neuroscientists among us have been able to look at where GLP receptors are. And yes, they're in the gut, but they're also in the brain in areas that we know drugs of abuse access to produce pleasure.

21:18You mentioned earlier pornography as well. If this was related to the gut, why would there be a reduction in cravings for pornography? Well, because the pathways in the brain are pretty simple. and behavioral addictions and chemical addictions share the final common pathway. And really, some of the early pornography researchers have said that cocaine use disorder and cocaine effects on the brain look very similar in brain scan experiments to pornography and visuals evoked, Yeah, dopamine release. So it all is going to come down to modulation of this dopamine release by chemicals or by gambling, let's say.

22:05And if these GLP-1s put a rain on the dopamine that can be released, it would have an effect across addictions from chemical to behavioral. We spoke with the director of an addiction clinic yesterday who told us that doctors aren't yet using this drug to treat people for addiction. Do you think that could change? We like to hear that because you can't change the treatment algorithm on the basis of the data that's been presented. And that means we have treatments for, let's take, alcohol use disorder. We have naltrexone, we have acampersite, we have antabuse, We have AA, we have CBT, we have a lot of treatments.

22:51We have to see where this fits. And as I said before, I think it fits kind of where naltrexone fits, reducing the brain reward produced by drinking. So yes, I think it will be adopted after this data showing efficacy to the level that it could be approved by the FDA, and then comparable efficacy to figure out where it fits in the treatment album, what comes first, second, and third. You know, so many of us know people who have died or suffered greatly from addiction, and so I'm sure that so many will be watching this science as it develops. But what are you hearing about this moment in addiction treatment from folks who are involved?

23:36I mean, are you rethinking what you thought you knew? That's a great question. I mean, you're talking to someone who has worked in this field for 50 years. When I first started, we couldn't even admit somebody with an alcohol use disorder to Yale New Haven Hospital because we didn't treat that. We only treated the liver complications. And you just heard me say the GLPs, we didn't even know they existed in the brain, these receptors. So we're learning a lot. We're learning things that can help people. And maybe we'll get to the point where we'll actually have new treatments. And I think all that gives you reason for optimism.

24:24Addiction Specialist Dr. Mark Gold, thank you so much. Thank you.

24:33That's it for us today. Here and now, anytime, comes from NPR and WBUR Boston. Today's stories were produced by Thomas Danielian, Sam Rifelson, Will Walkie, and Lynn Mennegan Our editors were Todd Bunt, Michael Scotto, and Kat Welch Technical direction from Caleb Green and Matt Reed Our theme music is by Mike Moschetto, Max Liebman, and me, Chris Bentley Our digital producers are Allison Hagen and Grace Griffin And here and now's executive producer is Alan Price Thanks for listening We'll be back with you tomorrow

25:08Thank you.