Fewer international students are coming to the U.S.

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0:37Merry Christmas. It's Thursday, December 25th, and this is Here and Now, Anytime from NPR and WBUR. I'm Chris Bentley. Hope you're having a nice holiday. No lump of coal from this Daily News podcast. Just a fresh episode, as always. Today on the show, the real history of football's most infamous last-ditch effort, the Hail Mary Pass. From the first guy to ever catch one. Also, a trailblazing musician from Texas is finally getting her due decades after her death in 1984. Esther Phillips was an R &B singer, but she put out a killer country record in the 1960s, including this take on Hank Williams' I Can't Help It.

1:29She could do it all. Esther never had a net. She was just a great, great singer. So why have so few people heard of Esther Phillips? That story and some awesome tunes coming up in a few minutes.

1:49But first, people from around the world still flock to American universities for higher education, but not as much as they used to. Data from the International Trade Administration, a part of the U.S. Department of Commerce, show the number of international students dropped off a cliff in August of this year, compared with last year. That figure is down 19%. It's the biggest drop-off outside of 2020, at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. Longtime education journalist Kavita Cardoza has been looking into this. She now teaches at the University of Richmond. And she told Scott Tong, this is not just a blip.

2:30This comes on the heels of a 7 % drop in 2024. Also, we are seeing decreases like during President Trump's first term. And how has this impacted colleges in the universities in the U.S.? How has this impacted the U.S. more broadly? It's really impacted the US because most universities have international students. International students, of course, do not pay the regular tuition. They pay higher than out-of-state tuition. So they're bringing in a lot of money. And in a lot of cases, especially in some of the STEM fields, I've spoken to professors who say that they could not offer certain courses if not for international students who are, in a sense, subsidizing it.

3:18There was one tally which showed more than a$1 billion drop in economic revenue. And of course, that's because international students don't just come here to study. They rent apartments. They eat out. They travel. Buy things. And so there's a real economic impact to this. India, of course, sends a lot of students to the United States. Let's play some sound of Clay Harmon. He's executive director of the Association of International Enrollment Management. His group works with U.S. colleges and student recruitment agencies in the U.S. We have heard from one institution that none of their Indian students who were admitted this fall was able to get a visa.

4:02And this is, in fact, a significant data point because India is the number one source of international students for the United States. Kavitha, can you talk a little bit more about the visa situation and challenges and what's changing there? It's taking really long to get visas. In other cases, visas have been denied. There have been several thousand cases where visas for international students have been revoked. And all that is happening against a backdrop of much higher scrutiny, Scott. They're looking at social media. It's just taking much, much longer. So in fact, a lot of students have not been able to get their visas in time.

4:46So they just weren't able to come. There's no clear guidance. You know, we saw earlier this year where students weren't sure, could they go back home? Would they be allowed back in? Would they not? There's a lot of confusion, which is adding another layer of stress. You speak to international students in these kind of situations. I want to play one example from an educational consultant in Turkey. Zeynep Bolas advises families who send their children to schools in other countries. And she also spoke to our program. Let's take a listen. We had an incident last year where a student was going for their second year and they got detained at the border, couldn't get into the country.

5:28After that experience, he decided to leave his program. He decided to apply to Europe. Those are the kind of stories that we didn't used to hear before. Is it your sense that a lot of students are in large numbers deciding, you know what, I'm going to focus on another English-speaking country, and that perhaps this could be a long-term shift away from the U.S.? I am definitely hearing that, Scott. Other countries, and it's not just students deciding, it's other English-speaking countries like Canada, Australia, the U.K., they are stepping up recruitment efforts. I mean, they are seeing an opportunity to attract international students and international dollars.

6:11In some cases, they have reversed some of their policies when it comes to, you know, work permits after you graduate, how long you can work. International students, once they've studied in a country, they're more likely to have links to that country, to start businesses, to visit. You know, I spoke to a leader from England who was talking about how they kept count of how many current world leaders they educate. And it's really second only to the US. And so they see that as a point of pride. Also, in terms of soft power, Scott, and we don't usually think of universities and soft power. But it really is when you've gone to a country and you've studied and you've made deep connections there with professors and other students, you have an affinity for that country.

6:58So even if you go back, you have that fondness. That's not to mention class discussions when you have international students and you're able to get different perspectives, the cultural exchange. There was one 2016 paper which showed that nearly a quarter of startups valued at$1 billion or more had a founder who came to the U.S. as an international student. It's an astounding number. Absolutely. So, you know, the$1 billion is like a numeric figure. I think the losses in non-tangible ways and opportunity costs, like something that would have happened that we don't even know would have happened, are far, far greater.

7:43Yeah. Education journalist Kavitha Cardoza. She also teaches at the University of Richmond. Kavitha, very good to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Scott. Coming up next, Paul McCartney said his favorite cover of a Beatles song was by Esther Phillips. Our next guest says Esther Phillips was responsible for one of the best country albums of all time. So why have so few people heard of her? Peter O'Dowd finds out after the break. Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from SelectQuote. For over 40 years, SelectQuote has been one of the most trusted brokers in insurance. Their mission is simple, to find you the right insurance policy for your unique needs.

8:26They shop, you save. In as little as 15 minutes, SelectQuote's licensed agents will compare policies from trusted, top-rated insurance companies to find you the best fit for your health, your lifestyle, and your budget. And they work for you for free. Get the right life insurance for you and save more than 50 % at SelectQuote.com slash anytime. That's 50 % off at selectquote.com slash anytime. Decades before Beyonce and her album Cowboy Carter, another black woman from Texas crushed genres to release a hit song. I said I don't love you. I just don't, I just don't love you anymore.

9:13To live together To live together, Lord knows, is a sin Release me And let me love again That's R &B singer Esther Phillips. Her song, Release Me, reached number eight on the Billboard chart in 1962 and eventually led to a groundbreaking country music album. She died at the age of 48 after a lifelong struggle with addiction. Our next guest says that album, The Countryside of Esther Phillips, is the best country album you've probably never heard of. Mike Hall wrote about it in the December issue of Texas Monthly. Mike, welcome. Thanks, Peter. It's great to be here. So you were a longtime fan of Esther Phillips, but you didn't know she released a country album in the 1960s.

10:10How did you first come across it? Well, we're Texas Monthly, so we do stories about Texas artists. And I didn't know Esther was a Texas artist until I heard a podcast. I mean, I've known her music all my life. I used to love listening to her when I was a teenager, but I had no idea about the breadth of her music. And the thing that really knocked me out was discovering that she had made this country record in 1962. It wasn't just a country record. It was a great country record. So Esther Phillips, born in Texas, she also had a difficult life. I see she started singing professionally after she won a talent competition when she was just 13 years old.

10:52Talk about her rise to fame. Well, she lived between her mom, who lived in L.A., in Watts, and her dad, who lived in Houston. They split up. So she would go back and forth. And her sister entered her into a talent contest because Esther was all the time singing around the house and she was just a kid. And she won. And that led to Johnny Otis, the great band leader who lived out in LA, taking her on the road. She was 14 years old and she had three number one hits as a 14-year-old and traveled all over the country and was huge. But she also picked up some really bad habits, including heroin. Yeah.

11:29Well, we're going to get to that part of the story, but I want to go back to one of those first hits. This one is Double Crossing Blues that she recorded because of Johnny Otis.

11:41Been looking for you, daddy I just found you in time You wits our mother woman And you swore that you were mine

12:06It is hard to believe that a 14-year-old is singing that song. How prodigious was her talent? Well, I mean, she had grown up singing in the church, but she really loved Dinah Washington, and apparently would sing Dinah Washington, the great jazz singer, around the house all the time. so she had this amazing kind of god-given talent but then she also had these influences from the church to these great jazz singers and so by the time she got up on that stage as 14 years old she had you know the timing and the presence and she knew how to let spaces live on in the music and not always go over the top but man she could go over the top too how'd she get tangled up in drugs?

12:50Well, she was on the road initially. Her mom went along with her and a tutor because she was only 14. But eventually her mom and her tutor stopped going on the road. And there were a bunch of men and jazz players in their 20s and 30s. And as jazz players would want to do, they would light up a joint. And so she eventually started partaking. You know, Esther had her adolescence robbed from her. You know, I mean, she was basically taken on the road as a kid. And all of a sudden she's like 17 and didn't have any friends. Her mom was not with her and she would sometimes shoot up with heroin. And so, you know, by the time she was 18, she was a full-blown drug addict.

13:33And Mike, despite her struggles with drugs, Esther Phillips is still making music in the 1960s. Talk about this leap that she makes from going on tour with jazz musicians, R &B, all the way to country. So she winds up back in Houston. She's in drug rehab, but she's also playing in this after hours club in Houston called Paul's Sidewalk Cafe. And one day there's a, she's playing on the same bill with a jazz trio called the Bobby Doyle three. And the bass player and singer is a young guy named Kenny Rogers, Kenny Rogers, who grew up in Houston. Like the Kenny Rogers. The Kenny Rogers. He's really young, and he calls his brother, who's older than him.

14:16His brother's name is Leland. His brother is like this total record company hustler. He's trying to start a label, and Kenny says to Leland, you've got to go check this woman out. Leland goes and sees her and is knocked out and says, look, we've got to get you into the studio, and Esther's ready for it. Two months before, Ray Charles had put out his groundbreaking record, the modern sounds of country and Western music. So what Leland does is say, we're going to make a country record. So they bring in an arranger and they take her to Nashville and put her in a studio with all these A-list Nashville musicians.

14:51And they do that song you played earlier, Release Me. And the record becomes this huge hit. So they go back into the studio and make a whole album. This is 1962. Nashville is lily white. There are 25 people in the studio, all musicians, and one black person, and it's this 26-year-old woman, and she just sings every song with so much heart and soul. After some of the songs, the musicians put their instruments down and applaud for her. They've never heard anything like this before. Let's hear another track from the album, which, again, is called The Countryside of Esther Phillips. Today I passed you on the street And my heart fell at your feet Oh, I can't help it If I'm still in love with you So people might recognize that classic cover of a Hank Williams song.

15:59Talk about how big of a deal this was. You mentioned it's the 1960s. We're still having conversations today about how difficult it is for a black musician to break through in country music in Nashville. Yeah, I mean, the only way this would have happened is because Leland Rogers comes up from Houston, rents out the studio, hires all these people, and she sings these songs. And you can tell, especially on that one, I can't help it if I'm still in love with you. She sings it like, I mean, I've heard 200 versions of that song in my life because it is a great song. Nobody sings it like Esther Phillips does.

16:35But the headline in your piece calls it the greatest country album you've never heard of. So what happened to it? Well, Release Me was a big hit. So then they go back in and they make the full album and the full album goes nowhere. It's even re-released by Atlantic Records a few years later. Atlantic, which was home to Ray Charles and Aretha Franklin, and it also goes nowhere. So she does all kinds of things in the wake of this. She covers a Beatles song, And I Love Him, which is a version of And I Love Her. It becomes Paul McCartney's favorite cover ever. I give him all my love That's all I do And if you saw my love You'd love him too I love him She covers Gil Scott Heron, this jazz poet.

17:35She even has a disco hit in the 70s. She winds up touring a lot. She plays in Europe a lot. And she ultimately dies young because her body's basically been worn out by all of her addictions. Yeah, she died in 1984. She was 48 years old. And you write in your piece that she never really got her due. What do you think her rightful place in music history is? I really do think she is one of the great jazz singers and country singers of all time. You can listen to her and you can hear echoes of Billie Holiday, But you can also listen to her and hear echoes of Patsy Cline. I mean, nobody could sing pop like her.

18:17Nobody could sing sophisticated jazz like her. Nobody could sing disco like her. I mean, she sang everything. Esther did so many different kinds of things that, I don't know, she never really found her niche. And we like to classify people by niches. Esther never had a niche. She was just a great, great singer. Well, I want to go out on this. I think this is a pretty chilling song from the Nashville album. It's called No Headstone on My Grave. Tell me what you think, what you feel when you hear that song. This song is just one of the most earth-shaking, soulful songs I've ever heard. And when you, I mean, Charlie Rich does a great version of it, but again, nobody sings it like Esther Phillips does.

19:00Mike Hall's article, the R &B singer who recorded the greatest country album you've never heard of, appears in the December issue of Texas Monthly. Esther Phillips would have been 90 years old today. Mike, thank you so much for talking to us. Appreciate it. Thanks, Peter. I really appreciate it.

19:31If you want to learn more about Esther Phillips and hear some more music, check out hereandnow.org. We'll put a link to that story in the show notes. of this episode.

19:48Well, maybe you're watching some football today. The Cowboys and the Vikings are both playing, not against each other. But 50 years ago this week, they faced off in a classic game that gave the world the idea of the Hail Mary pass, which has come to mean a last-ditch effort anywhere, not just in sports. Coming up, we hear from the man who caught that pass. Go long. We'll be right back.

20:3150 years ago this week, a football legend was born. It was December 28, 1975, the closing seconds of a playoff game between the Dallas Cowboys and the Minnesota Vikings.

20:51Drew Pearson of the Cowboys caught a nearly 60-yard pass thrown by quarterback Roger Staubach, who was a devout Catholic. After the game, he said, quote, I closed my eyes and said a Hail Mary. So what's it like to make sports history? Scott Tong asked the man who caught the pass, Drew Pearson. Can I ask, honestly, are you sick of talking about this? No, not at all. It's all positive, except if you're a Minnesota Viking fan, of course. Right. Well, let's talk about the football part a little bit for now. On that play, you were lined up against the Vikings defensive back Nate Wright, raced down the field, and the ball that Roger Staubach threw was a little bit underthrown.

21:37So in the air, Take us to what happened then. This was a tough game. They had the best record in a conference. They had just been to the Super Bowl the year before, and we knew exactly what kind of defense they were going to play. They just did it so well. That eventually turned out to be their downfall, because when we started that drive 91 yards away, we got bogged down on the 4th and 17th. At the 25th, right? You're way far from the line. Yeah. You know, in this situation, we knew the guy to attack would be Nate Wright, the right corner. And so when we had the fourth and 17, Roger said run a post corner on Nate Wright.

22:23And Roger hit me on the sideline for 22 yards in the first down. Oh, I see. So just to understand, your defender's tight on you. You kind of go in one direction. You kind of lose them for a second. and then you turn, you need 17 yards and you got 22. Yes. And then you're on the sideline at the 50. That's when the play happens. Yes. So we get that play. We get back to the huddle with 32 seconds left. Roger says, Drew, what do you got? I said, again, line me up on Nate Wright. And this time I'm going to run a turning and then take it off deep. We knew Nate Wright would bite on the turning. And sure enough, we come off the line.

23:06He bites on the turn in. I take it deep, and we're neck and neck. I see that the ball's underthrown. I came back. I made contact with Nate Wright. And with that contact and the momentum, he went down. I brought my hands around. The ball hit me in my hands and went through my hands, and I caught the ball between the elbow and my hip and into the end zone from the five-yard line. I mean, such a memorable video. Of course, the Vikings, including Nate Wright, Perhaps the whole state of Minnesota claimed that you committed a penalty. You know, I made contact with Nate, but there was no deliberate push.

23:43NFL officials have studied that film for so long over the years that they don't see any arm extension or anything like that. I'm sorry he couldn't handle that contact. It went down. But after I backed into the end zone, I threw the ball over the scoreboard. I actually thought I was throwing the ball into the stands because the NFL did not want you to do that. They were going to fine you$150 if you did it. But that stadium was so old and so raggedy, there was no stands there. And it went over the scoreboard into the parking lot. And that's where the Hail Mary ball ended up. Andrew Pearson, did they actually fine you?

24:24Yes, they did, Scott. No one ever asked that. No one ever follows up on that. Good job. Yes, they did. I'm an old business supporter. I got to ask. Yeah, good job. Yeah. Let me ask you about the term Hail Mary, right? It's in sports now all the time. All these years, Drew Pearson, have you ever run into a person of faith who has a problem with the use of the term Hail Mary for sports? No, no one's ever criticized it. No pastor, no pope. Everybody's embraced the term. And a lot of it is not because it's just the Hail Mary. You know, that's impactful to a lot of people in itself. But it's who said it.

25:04Roger Stalbach. And that made it okay to a lot of people. And so I didn't even know what a Hail Mary was. So I didn't know what it was until he had to explain it to me. I'm a Baptist from New Jersey. But it didn't offend me. I would have said hallelujah. Roger threw it as far as he could. I'd say hallelujah. I don't think it would have taken off like Hail Mary. that is mr drew pearson the hall of fame wide receiver and he caught the original the most iconic hail mary pass from roger staubach 50 years ago drew it's been really fun talking to you thanks so much anytime scott thanks for having the original 88 the original 88 the cowboy's favorite number now worn by wide receiver cd lamb not too shabby

25:59that's the end of regulation time on this podcast here and now anytime comes from npr and wbur boston today's stories were produced by amiko tamagawa and thomas danielian our editors were todd bunt and mikaela rodriguez technical direction by matt reed and caleb green the music on today's episode is also by Caleb Green and me, Chris Bentley. I did the versions of Oh Christmas Tree and Oh Holy Night that you heard earlier in the episode. And that is Caleb Green shredding some jazz guitar over Vince Caraldi's skating that you're hearing right now. Our digital producers are Alison Hagen and Grace Griffin.

26:35And here at Now's executive producer is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. Merry Christmas. And we'll be back with you tomorrow.