Historic flooding kills at least 7 in Indiana

0:00Kyle Cheney:Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. I keep hearing over and over again, I've never seen anything like this before. Historic flooding in Indiana has killed at least seven people.

0:36Kyle Cheney:It's Monday, August 17th, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. I'm Kalyani Saxena.

0:49Kyle Cheney:Today on the show, the Trump administration's immigration crackdown has brought the federal court system to a breaking point.

0:57Sophie Hartley:Judges are overwhelmingly finding that the Trump administration's policy is being implemented illegally, that it's not proper to treat these people as though they should be mandatorily detained.

1:07Kyle Cheney:Also, we'll remember Major League pitcher Tommy John, who died over the weekend at the age of 83.

1:14Sophie Hartley:He was a man, he was a father, he was a son, and he was a baseball player to the max, but a human being expressing human potential at the greatest level.

1:23Kyle Cheney:But first, let's get an update on the record flooding in Indiana. Nearly a week of heavy storms inundated the state, leaving at least seven people dead as of this recording. Recovery is ongoing, but residents are still displaced, their homes and businesses damaged, and their immediate futures uncertain. Rob Schmidt spoke with IndyStar reporter Sophie Hartley about the latest. This is the worst flooding that Indiana has seen since 1913. Can you describe the scene for us, what you're seeing where you are? Yeah, well, for one, I keep hearing over and over again, I've never seen anything like this before.

2:04Kyle Cheney:Over the past three days, I've been traveling up the White River, which is one of our main riverways, 40 miles. And I've covered a couple of different communities. And water is everywhere. I was in Anderson, Indiana, which is about 45 minutes northeast of Indianapolis and eight blocks south of the White River, which was a foot higher there that day than had ever been recorded before. Or I was standing over an intersection watching a man swim out to his brand new Chevy truck trying to rescue war memorabilia for his roommate. And so I'm just seeing people trying to cope hour by hour. But, yeah, there's a lot of water.

2:44Kyle Cheney:People swimming to their cars. I mean, hundreds of homes have been impacted as well. At least 200 residents have been displaced across the state. What do we know about the scope of the damage so far? Yeah, it's too soon to say much about official costs and people evacuated, but I can tell you what I've been seeing on the ground, which is hundreds, if not thousands of people who've been evacuated. I was talking to a man at a shelter and he told me that his car was in the mechanic. And when his apartment staffer came by and told him he had to evacuate, he didn't know what else to do. So he just started walking.

3:25Kyle Cheney:And as he was walking down streets trying to call an Uber, there were city officials putting up road barricades. And so he was walking through the rain just trying to get somewhere. So it's too soon to say. I did stand in a house and watch the water come in. It was about three inches. And the homeowner was just kind of theorizing about how much it would cost to fix. So something we'll definitely be covering and following as things develop. And, of course, as we mentioned, at least seven people have died. Do authorities expect this number to rise? We are not sure. We are following it closely and trying to learn as much as we can about the people who died in association with the storms.

4:04Kyle Cheney:But it's really too soon to tell. And is there any idea of how long the recovery of this will take or what's needed to get the state back on its feet? Yeah. Again, this is too soon to tell, but we know that we could possibly have federal money coming in. But the big issue here is that there's still water everywhere. And the White River reached its peak in Indianapolis, but that crest is heading south. But in Marion County, where Indianapolis is, and in the surrounding counties, I think engineers are still struggling to get in and assess some of that damage. We've seen roads get washed out or their backyards, houses flooded.

4:44Kyle Cheney:But right now, we don't have a good estimate. That's Sophie Hartley with the IndyStar. Sophie, thank you so much. Thank you.

4:53Kyle Cheney:Coming up next, the court system is being flooded with emergency cases as ICE continues its immigration crackdown. At the heart of the legal chaos, a reinterpretation of a 1996 immigration law that the government is using to detain immigrants within the country without bond. Politico's Kyle Chaney has looked into this, reviewing thousands of ICE detention cases and speaking with over a dozen detainees. After the break, he shares his findings with Rob. Stick around.

5:34Kyle Cheney:This message comes from Arctic Wolf. Arctic Wolf combines AI-led security operations with human expertise, helping teams detect, investigate, and respond at machine speed without building it themselves. More at ArcticWolf.com slash NPR. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Strawberry.me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Are you stuck in a job you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place? Are your reasons for staying really just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry.me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner and get 50 % off your first coaching session at Strawberry.me slash NPR.

6:22Kyle Cheney:Behind the headlines and images of ICE's crackdown on immigrants, there are thousands of court cases that are straining the justice system. The reinterpretation of a 1996 immigration statute requiring the detention without bond of all applicants for admission to the U.S. while they are seeking admission to the country is causing what one judge called, quote, madness, and that it is not sustainable. Politico's Kyle Cheney has reviewed thousands of ICE detention cases and spoken with more than a dozen detainees, lawyers, and judges about the crackdown. He joins us now. Kyle, welcome back.

6:57Sophie Hartley:Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.

6:59Kyle Cheney:So first, just to remind listeners, it was July 8th of last year in 2025 when ICE issued a two-page memo, and it was meant to be interim guidance. What did it say, and how did it change how ICE operates?

7:13Sophie Hartley:So it was called interim guidance, but the effect is obviously, as you laid out, it had been extraordinary across the entire legal landscape. And the idea is that for the most part, when people were apprehended at the border, there's a statute that's been on the books since 1996 that essentially said if you're apprehended at the border or soon after you cross, you are required to be detained without bond, usually to be deported fairly quickly. But at least that detention piece was mandatory. What the Trump administration has done for the first time since that law passed 30 years ago was say, we're now going to treat everyone we apprehend as though they've been apprehended at the border and subject them to the same mandatory detention without bond, even if they lived in the country for decades.

7:54Sophie Hartley:And again, may not have a criminal record. In fact, most do not have criminal records who fit this rubric and say that they must be detained as well. And that has led to this extraordinary flood of emergency lawsuits, people being grabbed at their homes, dropping off their kids at their workplaces, saying, wait a second, I'm not supposed to, I should at least get a bond hearing, a chance to prove that I can be in the community safely. I may still be deported at the end of all this, but I should be allowed to be in the community during those proceedings.

8:22Kyle Cheney:So on a personal level, Kyle, what have people who have lived in the country for decades, the folks you just mentioned, what have they been telling you?

8:32Sophie Hartley:So that's what we set out to do in this most recent story was to get at the human cost of this policy. And the key background piece of that is judges are overwhelmingly finding that this is the Trump administration's policy is being implemented illegally, that it's not it's not proper to treat these people as though they should be mandatorily detained. And so people who have built lives here, they have U.S. citizen children, sometimes they've used citizen spouses, they've had companies and jobs, they've worked here in part of their communities for years or decades, are saying this has upended their lives.

9:05Sophie Hartley:I mean, it's put them into financial ruin. They've lost their jobs. They've had their work permits confiscated from them. They're separated from their families for months at a time. and then even if they're released ultimately at the end of their legal odyssey, their lives are destabilized, and that's if they win their release at all. So the cost of this has been enormous at a human level too, and that's what we tried to capture because courts are saying this is illegal. They're saying people should be released or get a bond hearing, but that doesn't mean that even if they win those court cases that the consequences are over.

9:41Kyle Cheney:And, you know, just last week, I should mention here that the Boston-based appeals court concluded that the Trump administration's expansion of detention without bond was a distortion of decades-old immigration laws. Kyle, you've been talking to judges across the country about all of this. How overwhelmed are they when they're trying to adjudicate all the cases in their docket?

10:03Sophie Hartley:Well, this is a big piece of this, too. So the human cost is obviously it means the most to the detainees, but it's also bogging down the courts in ways that I think, I'm not even sure if the Trump administration anticipated it, although maybe they did. Thousands and thousands of cases all over the country. Courthouses are sort of overwhelmed. They've had to pull in judges from other districts to help manage caseloads. They've had to put their staff on 24 hours a day because they get these things at all hours of the night. and they're filed in an emergency way that requires quick action. So judges are saying, we're beleaguered, we can't take our eyes off our dockets or we'll miss something in someone's life, maybe as we just described, upended in a way that we think is illegal before we get a chance to act.

10:48Sophie Hartley:So they're operating in a 24-7 way. It's straining them and their staffs. And as you noted, it's in Massachusetts. It's everywhere, really, all over the country right now.

10:59Kyle Cheney:Immigration lawyers are also really busy. You took a closer look at Minnesota, where federal agents carried out Operation Metro Surge, meant to detain and deport as many immigrants as possible this past winter. What did lawyers there tell you about how they're managing this large jump in their caseload?

11:14Sophie Hartley:So, I mean, the lawyers are not used to this kind of dynamic. They are, you know, a lot of times they would get some habeas cases, but it wouldn't be hundreds and hundreds of habeas cases. They get some each year, and mostly they're dealing with immigration paperwork, getting people asylum, doing sort of administrative processes. And so they're overwhelmed, too. They can't fathom this sort of shift to emergency postures for months at a time that is now over the overwhelming bulk of their cases.

11:48Kyle Cheney:And Kyle, just briefly, we've got 30 seconds here. Since June 1st, ICE has had a new leader. Acting Director David Venturella is currently in charge while President Trump's nominee, Lance Shroyer, awaits confirmation. Any indication here that ICE's crackdown is going to change on our new leadership?

12:02Sophie Hartley:It hasn't seemed to. We also have a new Secretary of Homeland Security who can come in and touted the number of arrests that are climbing, so we may see more cases coming through. I haven't seen that translate myself in a sort of anecdotal way, but I do suspect that this is going to be sustained at least until the Supreme Court gets involved.

12:20Kyle Cheney:That's Kyle Chaney, senior legal affairs reporter for Politico. Kyle, thanks. Thanks for having me.

12:28Kyle Cheney:After the break, we'll look back at the life of famed baseball pitcher Tommy John, who died this weekend at the age of 83. Stay with us.

12:45Kyle Cheney:This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees, and free perks, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash switch. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. During his storied career, baseball pitcher Tommy John Jr. won nearly 300 games in the major leagues. He was also the first person to have surgery to replace a torn ulnar collateral ligament in his elbow. A career-ending injury, but not for Tommy John. The procedure allowed him to continue pitching for 15 more years and has since been named after him. Tommy John died over the weekend at the age of 83.

13:32Kyle Cheney:He had been battling bladder cancer. Just days before his death, Scott Tong spoke with his son, Tommy John III, about his father's legacy. Scott begins the interview by asking Tommy John III about why his father recently wrote a thank you letter to fans.

13:49Sophie Hartley:I think it was just one of those things to make sure in case you can't, right? You want to kind of get everything out there. I do know this. He, it's almost like he reminds me of Alex Honnold, the free solo climber. Like you can have single-minded focus if there was somebody that loved a thing as much as a person can. He loved baseball and through that, the city and the fans.

14:16Kyle Cheney:Well, let's listen to a little bit of him. This is your father, Tommy John, 1974, talking to broadcaster Tony Kubik during the 1974 World Series. He was not playing, but it was just after his surgery, and his arm was in a cast as he spoke. And I'd like to think, maybe this is going to happen to me, where I can come back next year and play next year. Tommy John, I hope you do come back as your important factor in the National League end for this ball club, the Dodgers. I'm sure I will, Tony. Thank you. Good luck. So good to hear your father's voice. Can you talk about his pitching career up until the surgery?

14:49Yeah, so he was a rookie in 63 and then had finally started to figure out.

14:54Sophie Hartley:I think what people don't realize is he was 13 and 3 when he injured his arm.

14:58Kyle Cheney:Wow.

14:59Sophie Hartley:So he had... He was having a great year. Just after the All-Star break, 13 and 3. Like, are you kidding me? And so that's what I think was part of the driver was he was starting to understand that he had figured it out. And then when his arm went, he's like, well, wait, I figured this out. Doc, can you do anything? And Job's like, we've done stuff in polio patients' ankles. It's never been done, but we can do this thing. And my dad's just like, you do your thing. I'm going to do mine. And then he throws another 14 years better than he did prior.

15:24Kyle Cheney:After the surgery. Wow. And Dr. Job, of course, Dr. Frank Job, who did this surgery again, your father was the first person, not just the first pitcher, first person to get the surgery at the time. What was the risk to his life, let alone pitching?