‘Hot rocks’ have a moment in the quest for renewable energy

0:00Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software for technical computing and model based design. MathWorks, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at MathWorks.com. WBWAR Podcasts, Boston. We just put our fingers in hot water coming out of the earth, right? So that's an indicator of what, you know, by some estimates is 160 gigawatts of geothermal power that sits underneath the state of New Mexico. Hot springs hint at a tremendous reserve of renewable energy right underneath our feet.

0:54This is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR. I'm Chris Bentley.

1:03Today on the show, clean power in the age of AI. Virginia's climate law demands 100 % renewable energy by 2050, but the Commonwealth is also known as the data center capital of the world. Can those ambitions coexist? We'd like to have the added generation to support the data centers, but without all the health effects and environmental effects. And it's not just Virginia. For our environmental reporting project, Reverse Course, Peter O'Dowd and I have been looking at how the U.S. can generate a lot more electricity without the climate pollution. In just a minute, we're going to hear about a relatively untapped source of fossil-free power in the Mountain West.

1:50Peter O'Dowd, you and I have been looking at two potential sources of energy that are getting a new look from these electricity-hungry tech companies. nuclear and geothermal and what was it about geothermal in particular that interested you well i think it was the fact that i just started hearing about it all the time you know it went from like oh yeah you you could make power with the heat beneath the surface of the earth to like there's news stories about it like every couple weeks and you know you're hearing politicians talk about it it's the subject of hearings you know in the united states congress and so it went from zero to 60 in my take pretty fast.

2:31And that was one reason. And the other thing is, you know, I live out here in the Western United States. This is a really big place. And if you look at a map like of geothermal potential, it's like really pulsing red all over the place from California to Utah, New Mexico. And so it's in some ways, it's sort of like wind and solar. It's everywhere. Right. The map pulsing red makes me think of maps of wind resources across the middle of the country that have been there forever, but no one ever really thought about them as resources until a generation ago, right? That's now maybe happening with geothermal.

3:06Although I should say, just to be fair to people who've been following geothermal for a long time, it really got its start in the 1970s in northern New Mexico, where we're about to hear me do some reporting in the mountains of northern New Mexico. So scientists have been trying to figure this out for many decades, but it wasn't until like the oil and gas industry came along and figured out how to frack that geothermal really went from just this idea that scientists had, you know, decades ago to something that could become a pretty decent source of renewable energy. Right. And then like you said today, zero to 60, it's really getting a lot of attention.

3:45All of a sudden, a lot of federal money and interest from different industries. And that reminds me of what I saw looking at the nuclear industry, which obviously has been around for a long time and has gone through many cycles of people saying it's coming back or it's time to start building nuclear reactors in the US again. But I visited two plants that are coming out of retirement because of demand from AI and data centers. And it really kind of underscored to me how fast things can change, like you were just saying. I mean, that you would shut down some nuclear plants that had operated for decades, only to reopen them a few years later.

4:21And for some communities, it's like a big deal for the local economy. me. Here's what Zach Morris, who does economic development in southwest Michigan, told me about the Palisades nuclear plant there coming out of retirement. We thought all along this plant was going to close and we were never going to get it back again. So to degree, this is like getting a birthday present that you weren't anticipating. Or you put on your winter coat here in the Middle Midwest and you find 50 bucks in your pocket that you didn't plan on. That's what this is like. Like, finding 50 bucks in your coat pocket is great, but it's also giving life to the kind of eternal debate over an anxiety about living next to nuclear plants, especially since one of the reactors that's coming back online is on Three Mile Island in Pennsylvania, which, you know, was the site of a huge disaster in 1979.

5:11But anyway, that's all in yesterday's episode of Here and Now Anytime. So if people haven't heard that, I'd encourage them to go back and listen to that. But these companies that are agreeing to buy the power from those nuclear plants and from potentially the geothermal plant that you're talking about, these are tech companies. They're really changing the economics of energy, aren't they? Yeah. I mean, they absolutely are driving everything. You know, I almost wondered if we would have a reason to go out into New Mexico or, you know, to Utah where they're building a big geothermal plant. Like, I don't even know if it would be happening.

5:47If it weren't for data centers and AI and tech companies who are so incredibly ravenously hungry for this power, to be honest, I don't think we'd be even having this conversation. Yeah. And they're willing to sign these long-term agreements. I mean, in some cases, they're saying, we'll buy the power from this plant for 20 years or 25 years. And that alone will change the economics of building a giant power plant. Yeah, it also gets the states excited because if they know they can get that kind of commitment from tech companies, then I think that you're going to see them get more on board. Like New Mexico, for instance, now that it's seen there's so much interest and now that it knows the metas of the world are out there willing to do this, they're trying to change the laws at the legislature to sort of welcome it.

6:37Right. But speaking of policy, I mean, we should mention the Trump administration at the federal level is supporting these nuclear restarts and backing geothermal plants. But we have to say there are two huge sources of renewable energy that are ready to go that the government is actively discouraging, wind and solar. right there's one thing really sums it up to me is the trump administration you know has talked about this fast tracking energy infrastructure to meet this rising electricity demand we're talking about they're even declaring it an energy emergency but that emergency excludes wind and solar projects they're actively holding up projects on federal lands so you know at the same time we're talking about these new nuclear and geothermal technologies that have a lot of potential but are years away there are these ready-to-go technologies whose developers say they're being stifled.

7:27Well, that's true. And I had that question for people all along the way, as I was reporting this story on geothermal, like why? It doesn't make sense to me. Why does the Trump administration favor one renewable energy, geothermal, so much more than wind or solar? And on the one hand, the answer could be that it's a much more nascent industry and that it really needs a lot more financial support in order to get up and off the ground. But if you're skeptical, you might also say, well, geothermal, for instance, is a sweetheart of the oil and gas industry. You know, as I said, it had its real renaissance once fracking was sort of perfected, and that technology could really benefit.

8:09I mean, oil and gas companies are investing in geothermal projects because of the synergy between the technology. So if you're skeptical, you might say maybe that's why the Trump administration is more interested in supporting geothermal. Yeah, well, very interesting. And someone's gonna have to figure all this out, because it's not even just data centers and AI. Everything's going electric, right? Like I think about heat pumps replacing furnaces and electric stoves, electric cars, we're just gonna need so much more electricity going forward. And Peter, we're gonna hear your reporting about how some of that might come from harvesting the power of hot rocks in a minute.

8:46We'll be right back. Let's do it.

8:54Thank you.

9:44We'll see you next time.

9:53We're looking at different forms of clean, renewable energy that can help satisfy the unquenchable thirst this country has for power. Which is why I made a stop in late October near the Hamish River outside of Los Alamos, New Mexico. Up here in the mountains, the golden leaves of the cottonwoods are giving way to winter. But Sherry Kelly and I are more interested in what's happening near the banks of the river, deep underground. Some geothermal water. This one's not super hot. Oh, but it's really, I mean, that's like bathwater. It's warmer than tap water, yes. Kelly is a geologist with the state's Bureau of Geology.

10:33We're kneeling next to a highway with our fingers in a burbling spring. The water is coming from a hole in the earth, and it stinks. Yeah, it's a little bit H2S. A little bit. H2S, hydrogen sulfide, a common gas whenever there's a volcanic system nearby. Kelly says there are places around here where the smell of sulfur is much stronger. And so if you happen to like kneel down to look at the spring and if you stay there too long you'll end up with a hole in your pants because the acid will eat your clothes. For ex-GS Energy CEO Josh Pruer, it's the evidence he's been looking for. We just put our fingers in hot water coming out of the earth, right?

11:21So that's an indicator of what, you know, by some estimates is 160 gigawatts of geothermal power that sits underneath the state of New Mexico. He says that's enough to power close to 40 million homes. XGS is one of several companies trying to take advantage of the heat beneath the western United States. In June, it announced a deal to power a meta data center in New Mexico with geothermal energy. The demand for that clean, round-the-clock electricity is greater now than it ever has been before, not just in Mexico, but across the world, to support AI and other types of business objectives. While data centers are fueling the search for new underground energy, it is the oil and gas industry that will help companies like XGS harness it.

12:08Geothermal has gotten a big boost from advances in the shale revolution, the same fracking technology that's helped fossil fuel companies bust up underground rocks to find pockets of oil and gas can be used to tap reservoirs of heat below the surface. This rock might be, you know, 300 to 400 degrees Fahrenheit. That is quite hot. To extract that heat, you have to drill a well, then inject cold water deep below the surface so the hot rocks can heat it up. That generates enough steam to produce electricity. I'm a big fan of saying there's almost nothing the oil and gas industry can't accomplish from an engineering perspective when it sets its mind to it.

12:46And so much of what geothermal's sort of cost equation is really around drilling. Help me understand this, because New Mexico is one of the top producing oil and gas states in the country. I think it's number two. What is it that's here that's helping you develop a new form of cleaner energy? Yeah, I mean, that's exactly it. It's one of the reasons we are here is because states like New Mexico that have people who are technically competent equipment to do drilling. All of the resources that come together to really build an ecosystem of an industry exist here because of that heritage of oil and gas.

13:24Western states like New Mexico, California, and Utah have another advantage. Out here, where seismic activity is more common, hot rocks are much closer to the surface. Perhaps the highest profile geothermal plant under construction in the country is Fervo's Cape Station project. It could start producing power next year in southern Utah. This is a very big deal. John McClellan is a chemical engineer at the University of Utah. Right now, geothermal makes up less than half of one percent of U.S. power production. He says there's a reason for that. To a certain extent, this still is unproven technology.

14:01Drilling is still expensive, and injecting fluid underground can have side effects. McClellan calls it seismicity. I call them earthquakes. That's exactly right. We don't need to get a geophysicist. Those are earthquakes, man. Plus, producing geothermal power can use a lot of water. It's definitely an issue. You cannot ignore it. My sense is that this is an engineering problem that can be resolved. And it must be resolved. Ex-GS CEO Josh Pruer thinks he has. His company uses a closed-loop technology, which means the water injected underground is enclosed in a steel tube. It never actually touches any of the rocks, which saves a lot.

14:40How much less water do you think your wells would use? It's a fraction. It's, I mean, less than even 0.1 % of a traditional geothermal facility. That's a selling point in New Mexico. The state relies on groundwater and two rivers, the Colorado and Rio Grande, that are under extreme stress. And if you can say we're not going to touch your water, that's a really powerful enabler of projects. Both political parties are eager to push geothermal technology forward. Republicans phased out wind and solar tax credits in their big beautiful bill this summer, but incentives for geothermal projects remained.

15:17Good morning. It's nice to see you, Secretary Wright. Thank you for being here. At a congressional hearing this year, Susie Lee, a Democrat from Nevada, gave a warm welcome to Energy Secretary Chris Wright. They both agree that the industry needs ongoing government support. What's valuable about geothermal is you get energy when you need it and when you want it. Wright ran a fracking company with investments in geothermal before he joined the Trump administration. I am bullish on the future of geothermal, but permitting in a sober government is necessary to make that happen. Well, I have several bills that are bipartisan aimed at streamlining the permitting process.

15:57So I hope to get your support on those. I think that's important, so I'm very happy to hear that. Back in New Mexico, local officials are also bullish. A report published this year said New Mexico is on the cusp of a geothermal boom. Lawmakers have made it easier to attract new development. But geologist Sherry Kelly says some of the hot rock fever, well... They overhyped it a little bit. She takes me off the busy highway to a place called Overlook Park, not far from Los Alamos. Miles of open space unfold before us, and far below the green ribbon of the Rio Grande, snakes toward Mexico. Do you ever come here and just look at the view?

16:38Yes, sir, I do. But it's what we don't see that matters. You'll look across this beautiful landscape, and you'll notice that there's no power transmission. There's maybe one... I see one power line. One power line. But mostly it's wide open expansion. Yes. And so that's a big bottleneck for geothermal. Ex-GS CEO Josh Pruer says there is a way around that. Geothermal plants can be built right next to a data center. The deal to power Meadows Data Center in New Mexico could be up and running by the end of 2027.

17:13Coming up, what connects those hot rocks in the mountains of New Mexico to the suburbs of northern Virginia? The tech companies looking for as much clean power as they can buy as they build out data centers across the country. After the break, is Virginia's new favorite industry kneecapping its climate ambitions? Stick around.

17:50The Commonwealth of Virginia is in a bind because five years ago, the legislature passed a law that requires 100 % renewable energy on the grid by 2050. But Virginia is also home to more data centers than anywhere else in the country, and those new buildings require a whole lot of power. William Shobe has been thinking about this. He's professor of public policy at the University of Virginia. Bill, welcome. Yeah, nice to chat with you. Yeah, nice to talk with you. So five or six years ago when lawmakers were working out the details of this law to decarbonize the grid, nobody was really worried about how much electricity AI and data centers would demand.

18:28What's changed? Well, exactly that. You know, all through the 2000s, electricity demand in the state hardly grew at all. And then it really took off. Are you able to quantify just how much the electricity demand has increased in the five years since the Virginia Clean Economy Act passed? we're tracking it pretty closely for the last couple of years data center demand by itself has been growing oh 25 to 30 percent a year and data center electricity use in the state is now bigger than all of our industrial demand and is closing in on residential demand in the next year or so, data center electricity use in Virginia will pass all use of electricity in homes around the state.

19:22So it's growing pretty fast. It's not unprecedented. We had growth like this back in the 60s. Back in the 60s, electricity demand grew 7, 8, 10 % a year almost through the whole decade. But it hasn't been like that for a long time. You may have noticed that Virginia has a new nickname. Some people are calling it the data center capital of the world. Is it really that much? I mean, what's driving all this interest in this new infrastructure? It really is that much. Part of it has to do with the history of how the internet started. It was a very good place for data centers to connect up to the internet.

20:03And I don't think anybody really expects that to slow down anytime soon. Well, with the cost of power going up, this is an issue that's evolving politically. The incoming governor, Abigail Spanberger, campaigned on energy affordability. Here she is in her victory speech in November. We're going to produce more energy and we are going to lower costs and we're going to do it by producing more energy here in Virginia and we're going to make sure that large utility users make sure that they pay their fair share. Interestingly, now Democrats control the state government. What solutions do they have to not only maintain their climate goals, but also to meet this demand for power?

20:45Well, as I mentioned, we have had periods when electricity generation grew pretty fast. So that's not unprecedented by itself. trying to do it without causing a lot of damage to the environment and a lot of health effects you know because of the generation the emissions from the generation is the new challenge because we'd like to have the added generation to support the data centers but without all the health effects and environmental effects of those data centers you know the modeling we've done indicates we can get there. It's possible to do, but we just have to give the right incentives for generating clean energy and expanding the supply without the emissions that used to go along with the expanded supply.

21:35Do you think there's any way to do this to meet that demand without more natural gas, which of course is a fossil fuel? Well, it depends on whether you're talking about the short run or the long run. Because generation sales of electricity have been going up so fast. It may be that we need to expand the use of natural gas in the short run, but Virginia generates almost 10 percent of its electricity from solar energy now, and that percentage is growing from year to year. We're adding quite a lot of generation. Next year, we have a big new wind farm that's going to be coming online, and we have a pretty strong offshore wind resource that we can tap, plus there are plans to add new types of nuclear generation to the mix.

22:25The answer to your question is that in the longer run, it does seem to be possible. We just have to have the right incentives in place. So when you look at this broadly across the country, what do you think it means for efforts that have been in place to slow down climate change now that the cost of energy is becoming such a major political issue? Well, in Virginia, non-emitting energy resources like solar, for example, that's our cheapest new source of energy. So if we were just picking new sources of energy along that cost continuum, we want to build plenty more of that solar. Now we need a mix of different types of generation.

23:07We need the intermittent renewables. We need some baseload power. But the development of new technologies, especially new nuclear, and people are talking about developing geothermal, you know, directional drilling technology that gives us the ability to tap geothermal power. In the short run, we have good technologies we can use. In the longer run, there are new sources coming along that can substitute for what we've been using. I mean, we have the development of a fusion energy power plant in central Virginia, a proposed one. So by the time we get out to the point where we have really binding constraints on our ability to meet new energy demand, we're going to have new options available.

23:58So I think it's really partly a matter of making sure that we're open to those new technologies as they become available and we're ready to incorporate them in our energy mix. William Shobe is professor of public policy at the University of Virginia. Bill, thank you. Yeah, it's a pleasure. That's it for us today. You can find all our reverse course reporting on nuclear power, climate change, clean water, and a lot more at hereandnow.org. Check out the other episode Peter O'Dowd and I were referencing earlier about how AI is bringing nuclear plants out of retirement. And make sure you're following the show so you hear all of our reporting to come.

24:41Today's stories were produced by Peter O'Dowd and me, Chris Bentley. Our editors were Michael Scotto and Kat Welch. Technical direction from Caleb Green and Matt Reed with help from Marcel Damiano. I wrote the theme music with Mike Piscetto and Max Liebman. Our digital producers are Allison Hagen and Grace Griffin. Seriously, check out hereandnow.org for a taste of their work. And Here and Now's executive producer is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. Here and Now Anytime has new episodes every single weekday of the year. We'll be back with you on Monday.

25:24Thank you.