How to keep your chatbot from stealing your money

0:00Charlie Dent:This message comes from our NPR sponsor, Fort Myers, Islands, Beaches, and Neighborhoods. This summer, follow what feels right, like embracing your playful side on Fort Myers' white sand beaches. Direct flights arrive daily. Plan your trip at visitfortmyers.com. WBOR Podcasts, Boston.

0:24Charlie Dent:When you put that into the AI, it's online, y 'all. I mean, a lot of these scammers already have a lot of our information. The information you can put in AI could fill the gaps.

0:37Michelle Singletary:Artificial intelligence might be impressive, but think twice before you give it your personal financial information. It's Wednesday, May 13th, and this is Here and Now, Anytime from NPR and WBUR. I'm Chris Bentley.

0:58Michelle Singletary:The midterm elections are less than six months away, and the cost of living is still going up. But President Trump said that's not his concern when he's still waging war on Iran.

1:10Jamal Simmons:I don't think about American financial situation. I don't think about anybody. I think about one thing. We cannot let Iran have a nuclear weapon. That's all.

1:20Michelle Singletary:In a few minutes, we'll hear from Democratic and Republican political strategists. But first, people are turning to chatbots for all kinds of things. So why not financial advice? Our favorite personal finance columnist, Michelle Singletary of the Washington Post, says artificial intelligence can be a valuable tool for managing your money. But there are also big risks. She shared some tips with Robin Young.

1:49Charlie Dent:This is amazing how many people are doing this. Talk briefly about how big it is. you cite one TD Bank poll that says 55 % of adults use AI for financial help. That's right. Yes, more and more people are using AI. And I get it. This financial stuff is really tough. TD Bank said that they looked at how many people are using it. And 77 % of Gen Z and 72 % of millennials are using AI for financial guidance. That's huge. So that's a huge number of people who are turning to AI to try to get some help with their money. And it's increased. I just want to note that a year ago when the TD Bank poll says 55 % of adults use it now, a year ago it was 1 in 10.

2:36Charlie Dent:So it's really growing. Get to the pitfalls. You say never share your name, address, Social Security number, or driver's license. Most of us know never, ever, ever share your Social Security number. but you know are you saying there's absolutely no time when a chatbot might need that information to do it absolutely not absolutely not you should be very protective of your social security number and many people are when they're in person I've had times where people have asked me that for my number and I'm like why you need that number and you should do the same thing with the AI because we don't know if these systems, when and if they're going to be hacked and all this information is stored there.

3:20Charlie Dent:And it's, you know, your social security number is such an important identification for yourself. So there's no reason you need to put that into any question you would ask AI. As you always do, you give examples of your behavior so we can learn from you. For instance, your dentist. Yeah. I mean, they, you know, they create a file and they were using, wanted to use our social security numbers as part of the filing system i said baby you have my insurance number that's gonna be good enough and it was it's almost like she looked at me like well how could you not give it to me and i'm not gonna i'm not giving it to you one time robin i was went to pick up furniture and the clerk wanted my driver's license number and he wanted to scan it into their system and i said here's the receipt i pay for in cash he's like well you can't pick up your furniture i said well then you're gonna give me my money back because i am not letting you scan And my driver's like, I saw him sitting at the system where people are just walking by.

4:14Charlie Dent:There was no security. I was like, I'm not. I'm not doing this. I'm not. And, you know, I don't know you, buddy, either. So there's that. But you say even when with a chat bot, you're looking for work. Talk about that employment details. Yeah. You know, there was a Cisco survey. They said 37 % of respondents said they had entered work information. Now, that's a very key piece of information. If someone is trying to apply for a loan in your name, knowing where you work can help get them closer to applying for a loan in your name. And so, you know, you don't need to say, I work at, you know, NPR and I want to apply for, you know, a loan and this is what I make.

4:56Charlie Dent:You don't want to put those kind of details in there. You could just say, I'm looking for a job or, you know, how do I negotiate a salary if I've made, you know, over$50 ,000 or something like that. You know, you want to be general. You don't want to be specific. So because when you use specific data, you know, I don't know about you, but sometimes when you go on to different sites, particularly financial, they'll say, well, what was your last transaction or how much debt do you have or which bank? Like some of the security questions is of these banks, which one do you bank at? And so when you put that into the AI, it's online, y 'all.

5:29Charlie Dent:And so you don't want that kind of information. I mean, a lot of these scammers already have a lot of our information. The information you can put in AI could fill the gaps of the information they don't have. And people might be wondering, well, why would that ever, you know, what kind of chatbot, what kind of situation would that be? And it might be an AI tool, you think it's an AI tool, that is giving you advice on negotiating a raise. That's exactly right. Like you might say, I make, you know,$75 ,200 last year. And then this thing, this system gets hacked. And now they know exactly how much you make if you put in other information where you work and they can put that into a loan application.

6:12Charlie Dent:You just, again, just be so careful about sharing anything. Like you might say, hey, I want you to help me create a budget. And so you might start listing all the different amounts that you owe specific amounts. No, don't do that. Just, you know, if you want to come up with a budget, say, you know, I owe, you know, a general amount, something that's not even close to what you owe. And the budget will still apply. And so, you know, for example, you don't want to give them specific transactional data. You know, last month I spent$45.12 at the pharmacy. And then, you know, you don't want to do that.

6:50Charlie Dent:Just, you know, be very generic in how you talk to you. Should just treat anything you put online like somebody else is going to get that information. Yeah, and this is a little late for this season, but never upload your tax forms. Now, people might do this because they think, no, this will help me get deductions. You know, after I wrote this column, I got an email from an accountant who said one of her clients did that because he wanted to see if her advice was good. He messed everything up. He put his entire tax form into the AI, and she was just like screaming. First of all, it gave the person wrong advice, and then she had to spend a lot of time telling him why the advice was wrong.

7:29Charlie Dent:But then the thing that scared her the most is that that person had uploaded his entire tax return, which is a lot of information. Michelle Singletary, you always give us this bad news with such a cheery tone. What not to do, and we thank you so much. The Washington Post, Michelle Singletary, thank you as always. You're welcome.

7:55Michelle Singletary:Coming up next. Political strategists weigh in on the midterms just about six months from now. Stick around.

8:06Charlie Dent:This message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana. Making buying a car 100 % online with real, transparent pricing and customizable financing that fits your budget. Browse thousands of cars and get yours delivered. Visit Carvana.com today. Delivery fees and terms may apply.

8:26Michelle Singletary:Voters are increasingly unhappy with the way President Trump is handling the economy. That's one of the takeaways from some new poll numbers out this week that are pretty discouraging for Republicans. And it's one of the reasons that we wanted to have a little political roundtable to talk about the midterm elections coming up. Our guests were Republican Charlie Dent, a former congressman from Pennsylvania, and Democrat Jamal Simmons, former communications director for Kamala Harris. The two of them spoke with Robin and Peter O'Dowd.

8:58Jamal Simmons:So on his way to China yesterday, a reporter asked President Trump if the financial situation of everyday Americans is motivating him to make a deal to end the war in Iran. And here's what he said. Not even a little bit. The only thing that matters when I'm talking about Iran, they can't have a nuclear weapon. I don't think about American financial situation. I don't think about anybody. I think about one thing. We cannot let Iran have a nuclear weapon. That's all. Okay. So Charlie, the president is making an argument here and maybe staking out a negotiation position when he says that getting rid of Iran's nuclear capability is worth the economic pain the war is causing.

9:39Jamal Simmons:But was it a mistake for him to say that he does not think about American's financial situation. Yeah, of course. I mean, that's a soundbite that's just going to be replayed thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of times between now and the election. Because the truth is that the president does worry about the financial circumstances of a lot of folks. He's obsessed with the markets, the stock market. He always is talking about that. So I think his answer was terrible in terms of lack of concern for the financial condition of many Americans, because that is clearly what's upsetting Americans right now.

10:15Jamal Simmons:It's the fact that they're paying a lot more for gasoline and food as a consequence of what's happening in the Middle East and the Strait of Hormuz not being passable. So this is what we're dealing with. So bad answer and a lot of mop duty going to be needed to clean that one up. Well, Jamal, Democrats, we're listening, of course, and they're already pouncing. But I do want to ask you about this CNN poll out yesterday that found 77 % of voters surveyed, including 55 % of Republicans, say that the president's policies have increased the cost of living. But that very same poll found that when asked which political party would do a better job addressing the cost of living and inflation situation in this country, neither polled as strong or stronger than the Democratic Party.

10:59Jamal Simmons:So, Jamal, you know, Democrats haven't been able to connect with voters on this issue either, it sounds like.

11:04Charlie Dent:Yeah, well, there are some other polls that show Democrats being a little more trusted than Republicans. So I think that that part of the polling analysis is yet to be determined. We're about to have a political campaign over the next few months where that will all get sorted out. Here's the problem for the president, having been somebody who was, you know, in the Biden administration and observed it for a while. It's very hard to tell people that what they're experiencing doesn't matter or will get better soon and get credit for that. Charlie mentions the market the president is paying attention to, the stock markets.

11:36Charlie Dent:The president pays a lot of attention to the stock markets. Most Americans, though, pay more attention to those gas prices they pass by at the gas pump every day and when they stop to get gas, they watch that gas price the way stock traders watch that market price. And so that price has been going up every week for the last seven or eight weeks or 10 weeks. So this is going to be a much bigger deal for the president, gas and groceries, than anything else that he's thinking about.

12:04Jamal Simmons:Which is why, Charlie, I think Republicans on Capitol Hill are now starting to talk about suspending the federal gas tax to bring costs down. Missouri Republican Josh Hawley says Congress hasn't really been doing much on this front. He told reporters recently that his advice to Congress would be do something on the cost of living. It seems like voters are making it very clear that they want some relief. Charlie, what should Republicans be doing right now as a former congressman yourself? I'll tell you what they should not be doing. They should not be suspending the federal 18.4 cent per gallon gas tax.

12:39Jamal Simmons:This is a bipartisan bad idea. Democrats have also proposed this many times over the years as well. It's fundamentally, it's just idiotic because what will happen is the you know, you suspend the gas tax, you basically end up defunding your transportation initiatives and infrastructure initiatives, add to the deficit. And what's worse is you won't feel this at the pump because other factors affect the price of gasoline. It might mitigate an increase a little bit, but you could still see gasoline prices go up even though the gas tax is suspended. So a lot of voters are going to say, like, what did they do?

13:13Jamal Simmons:My prices still went up. And so it's just a royally bad idea. It's a populist gimmick at both sides of deployed, and it's not going to go anywhere. If the president wanted to help on inflation, he could start by maybe getting rid of some of his tariffs. That would be actually enormously beneficial, but he's not going to do that. Yeah. Well, real briefly, Charlie, if we could, this war has not been easy to get out of, as the president is discovering. If it's still going in November, what happens to Republicans? Well, the war's still going on. I mean, it just compounds the problem of inflation and affordability for Republicans.

13:47Jamal Simmons:It's making matters worse. And when you combine it with, say, his obsession on a gilded ballroom, which most Americans, you know, are really upset about, it speaks to a detachment. So right now, it's looking pretty tough for Republicans in the term, particularly in the House.

14:02Charlie Dent:Okay, everybody, I'm going to take redistricting because, you know, there's nothing going on there. Charlie, I'm going to stay with you, too, because you are on a redistricting reform commission in Pennsylvania. This is 2019 to find a less partisan way of drawing congressional maps. How quaint. You know, now we have a president demanding Republicans redistrict specifically to find more Republican votes. No blatantly saying and a Supreme Court majority dismantling what little is left of the Voting Rights Act created to ensure that black voters had representation. Your party now gleefully carving up districts saying they want more Republican votes, which means fewer black votes count and fewer black lawmakers win, period.

14:44Charlie Dent:Is that a good look?

14:46Jamal Simmons:Well, first, I do think independent commissions are a good idea. They're not going to happen now, obviously, given what's happened. By the way, I was a legislator and I was involved with redistricting on two separate occasions, so my hands are not clean. But let me just finally add that the Congress needs to pass a law banning mid-decade redistricting. This is an enormous mistake. I think Republicans are making overly optimistic assumptions about the seats they will pick up as a consequence of these redistricting states like Texas. They're saying they're going to get five seats. They'll be lucky to pick up three of those.

15:20Jamal Simmons:You look at what's going to happen in Florida. Republicans are saying they'll pick up four seats. I am not at all convinced of that. You know, Democrats screwed up royally in Virginia, by the way, but they still may end up picking up two seats, not four. So there are a lot of mistakes and bad assumptions. The lieutenant governor of South Carolina, or not the lieutenant governor, the state senator who made a statement yesterday saying that they should not do redistricting is actually on to something because he realizes in order to create another seat, he'll have to dilute other Republican seats and he'll take competitive seats and make competitive seats out of ones that are currently not competitive.

15:53Charlie Dent:Look, you said Democrats have screwed up royally. We will pick that up. But Jamal, you know, we spoke to Jamal Simmons, the Democrat. We spoke to historian Julian Zelizer yesterday. He said, you know, the Voting Rights Act wasn't about just repairing the past. It was a pledge for the future. Is your party making that case enough or maybe getting pulled into the fray? The New York Times first reported that Democratic Party leaders are considering lowering the retirement age of Virginia state Supreme Court judges to try to get new judges because that court didn't approve their map redraw. And this morning, California Democrat Ted Lieu predicted even more change of that nature.

16:29Charlie Dent:Let's listen.

16:30Michelle Singletary:This is a radical Supreme Court that is making decisions simply to benefit Republicans. It's going to usher in massive Supreme Court reform when Democrats take control.

16:42Charlie Dent:Well, and so, Jamal, is this a good idea? Why not trust Democrats to see what is going on? You know, Republicans saying we are doing this to carve things up to get more Republican votes, to see that and go out and vote, as we just heard Charlie say, maybe not for Republicans. You know, when I was growing up in Detroit, we had a saying, don't start none, won't be none. And I think this is one of these cases where the Republicans started and Democrats had to get in the game. They had to try to find a way to hold on to some of these seats just to keep things from being completely overwhelmed. And so this Virginia case is concerning, but the case that's more concerning to me is the Calais case in Louisiana, because that's the one that ruled against having minority gerrymandered districts or districts that would protect minority voters from being able to have their say.

17:31Charlie Dent:And they said you can't use race. Now, the question is in states like Alabama. They said you can't use race because it's fixed. Right. Yeah, but if you're in places like Alabama or Mississippi or Louisiana where the Republican Party is 95 % white, that is a proxy. They're using proxy as a – in those states, they're using party as a proxy for race. And so what's happening is you're protecting white districts, not being worried about having African-Americans have their political representation in Congress. That, to me, is a big or bigger concern in a country that seems to have gotten – that said we got past this kind of racial question, these racial dynamics.

18:16Charlie Dent:We haven't. And so we've got to make sure we're paying attention to that. I want to make sure we listen to one last thing because, Charlie, you expressed concern and so have other of your fellow Republicans. South Carolina, yesterday the state legislature declined to extend their session to redraw their voter map. Last week, the South Carolina Senate leader, Shane Massey, said he wasn't in favor of doing this because he didn't want to help Democrats win, meaning make Republicans look bad. Let's listen.

18:43Michelle Singletary:Look, I'm concerned about whether we can hold seven seats. Frankly, I'm concerned that if you as I've said before, that if you get cute with this and you start playing with it too much, that you could actually end up losing seats.

18:56Charlie Dent:Charlie, that does sound like music to your ears.