Jack Smith testifies he has proof Trump tried to overturn 2020 election

0:00Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software for technical computing and model-based design. MathWorks accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering engineering. Learn more at mathworks.com. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. I stand by my decisions as special counsel, including the decision to bring charges against President Trump. Our investigation developed proof beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump engaged in criminal activity. Today is the first public testimony by former special counsel Jack Smith. about his efforts to charge the president with trying to overturn the 2020 election.

0:57It's Thursday, January 22nd, and this is Here and Now, anytime from NPR and WBUR. I'm Chris Bentley. Today on the show, the mayor of St. Paul, Minnesota, says her city is under siege by ICE. Every single person that ICE has accosted has taken. Somebody loves that person and that they don't have to look like me in order for me to understand that when you tear families apart, you tear away the fabric of what makes us Minnesotans. Also, Trump is backing off his most bellicose threats against Europe and NATO over Greenland. But the diplomatic damage is done. What's the view from Moscow? The Russians have just watched in amazement, you know, how the transatlantic alliance is fraying.

1:44Before we get to that, though, former special counsel Jack Smith told Congress today he had, quote, proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump engaged in a criminal scheme to overturn the 2020 election. Smith said he wanted to correct what he called false and misleading narratives about his investigation, and he said a jury would have found Trump guilty if the Justice Department had been able to prosecute him. Republicans pushed back and demanded answers for why Smith gathered some Republican lawmakers' cell phone records as part of the investigation. Kyle Cheney has been watching. He's senior legal affairs reporter for Politico.

2:23Here's his conversation with Indira Lakshmanan. How did Smith come across today in the hearing? Honestly, it seems he's having a fairly easy time of it, possibly because he's already had sort of a dress rehearsal when he did a closed door deposition with the same committee last month. But he seems to be sort of poised and sort of calmly parrying some of the attacks he's getting from Republicans and really using this appearance to justify and explain in detail the case he built up against President Trump. He hasn't seemed to be under duress, really. And as you pointed out, he's focused a lot on, Republicans have focused a lot on the technicalities of his investigation as opposed to the substance of the actual case against President Trump.

3:03Well, let's talk about that substance. Did we learn any new facts today, any specifics about the evidence that Smith said he has on Trump's efforts to overturn the election results? You know, I think most of the evidence that he amassed had come out in the court case itself. So there were no shocking revelations. I think what really is new about this is we're hearing Jack Smith explain this to the public for the first time. We're seeing him on camera, you know, telling in sort of a clear and compelling way what he actually planned to prove in court, what witnesses he might intend to call, you know, Republican people who advised President Trump or were on his side politically, yet nevertheless opposed what he was trying to do in the 2020 election.

3:45And sort of how he was going to lay out that case to a jury is what he's sort of piecing together for the public now for the first time. All right. Well, California Republican Daryl Issa pressed Smith over how he sought lawmakers' phone information. Here's how Smith responded. We did not provide that information to the judge when we requested a nondisclosure order consistent with the law and consistent with the department. Mr. Chairman, the amazing thing here today is that we have an admission that an article. The gentleman's time has expired by now 34 seconds. It gets more than five minutes. How many times do you interrupt me?

4:24OK, so fireworks between Daryl Issa, a Republican, Maryland Democrat, Jamie Raskin. Meanwhile, Smith is sitting there. Uncomfortable for sure. But what did we learn about the controversy over his gathering of phone records? Again, not really a whole lot. You know, look, the fireworks were mostly between the members. Smith kind of sits back and lets them lay it out of their system. And then he sort of explained the process of how that why they went after the phone records they did, which is these were members of Congress that Donald Trump himself or his allies, his alleged co-conspirators reached out to on January 6th.

5:01And, you know, that's why they went after the records and that he followed a process that was in place at the time to obtain them. So, you know, look, Republicans are upset that Jack Smith went after their colleagues' records and raised concerns about whether it violated constitutional protections of the speech or debate clause, which prohibits the executive branch from going after Congress. And those are, you know, very technical debates and legitimate and important debates to have about the Constitution. But again, weren't really about the substance of the case he built against President Trump.

5:30All right. Well, meanwhile, Trump's Justice Department is investigating Jack Smith, right? So did Smith give investigators any ammunition that they could use against him in their probe? I mean, one thing we saw both in his deposition last month and so far in today's hearing is that Smith is extremely well prepared. He knows exactly what he wants to say and what he can't say. There are certain limits to how far he can go, what he can disclose. And so it seems there's not much there. You know, Donald Trump did weigh in during the hearings that Jack Smith's getting decimated by Congress. And I hope some I hope the Justice Department is going to do something about this.

6:08And so, you know, we do suspect they're looking at this over there, but we don't know what kind of case they're building. And I certainly don't think he gave them any clear ammunition from his testimony today. In the minute we have left, what else jumped out at you about today's hearing? I mean, really, really just how much the Republican questioning has focused on those technicalities, on the speech or debate clause, on how Smith – did he sign the proper paperwork to become special counsel when he took the oath of office? You know, how did he become – who recommended him? There was a lot of things around the margins of his appointment.

6:42And, you know, why did he try to get a gag order on Donald Trump as opposed to, you know, really the unchallenged narrative of, you know, what the case he built about this historic attempt to subvert the transfer of power in 2020. Really haven't heard much pressure on Smith at all related to that. So it sounds like the Republicans were more pressuring him over how he did it than whether or not it was true that Trump tried to overturn it. All right. Well, Kyle Cheney is a senior legal affairs reporter for Politico. Kyle, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me.

7:19Well, that's a taste of law and order playing out in Washington. If you want to see the Trump administration's vision of law and order up close, though, you'll have to go to Minnesota, where ICE agents detained a five-year-old boy to use him as bait, according to officials from the Columbia Heights Public Schools District outside Minneapolis. More after the break.

7:55Thank you.

8:23you for free. Get the right life insurance for you and save more than 50 % at selectquote.com slash anytime. That's 50 % off at selectquote.com slash anytime. Vice President J.D. Vance is in Minneapolis today. The White House says he'll give a speech about restoring law and order in Minnesota. But the federal government has not opened investigations into misconduct by ICE agents who've broken into homes without warrants, or deployed violent tactics like chokeholds against American citizens and children. Yesterday, an appeals court temporarily paused a ruling that ordered ICE to stop detaining or teargassing peaceful protesters.

9:08Shortly afterwards, local media aired video of Border Patrol Commander-at-Large Gregory Bovino tossing a smoke canister towards protesters in Minneapolis. All of that is leading local authorities to say it's ICE who is disrupting law and order. And yet the Justice Department has served subpoenas not to ICE, but to several Minnesota officials, including our next guest. Kobi Herr is the mayor of St. Paul, Minnesota. She's a Democrat, and she spoke to Robin Young about what's been happening in her city. I mean, they're using pure intimidation tactics. You know, Trump stated that there was retribution to be paid, and he's making good on that promise.

9:48And so it's not surprising to me that they are here, our cities are under siege, and they are using the tactics that they are to attack our residents here. Okay, play devil's advocate here for a bit. You know, unlike the early images where it was mostly people standing with signs, we've seen terrible images of protesters storming into a church service, a sacred place, and, you know, getting right up in the face of different people there. or people yelling right in the face of ICE agents facing off with them. It seems much more aggressive. You know you've been subpoenaed by the Justice Department along with other Minnesota officials, part of an investigation into whether state officials are obstructing ICE operations.

10:28Do you think you as mayor of St. Paul could be doing more to tamp down this situation? I don't know if we could have any greater call that we have to our communities, both myself and Mayor Frye and Governor Walz have said on a number of occasions that you have the right to protest but you have to protest peacefully. That we have reinforced that if you get in between ICE and their operations that you are breaking the law. And so we are all for law and order here. But I want us to remember that from the highest office of our land when they do not respect people's constitutional rights, when they do not believe in law and order, when they do not believe in human rights.

11:10They are setting the tone for the reception that they're going to get back. Well, and still, and I asked this of Mayor Fry on Monday, you know, he, of course, your kind of cousin mayor in Minneapolis, you know, if he could condemn what happened in that church. And it took him several moments before he said, I would not have done that. Can you say the same thing? I've said this before. I'm a Christian. I believe that houses of worship, whether faith you practice, those are sacred spaces. But again, I would call on our federal government to do the exact same thing they're asking of other people.

11:43I am somebody who will not ask someone to do something if I'm not willing to do the same, which means that we don't go send ICE agents into schools and we don't use children as baits to have other people open the door, that we don't go into hospitals and we don't monitor and that we give people their rights to be able to have visits and to be able to have the care that they need. Can you explain more what you're talking about, we are hearing reporting of, let's say, a five-year-old. Tell what you know of that story. Yes, at a school, there have been a number of children that have been taken from school and used as bait for other people to open the door.

12:15That is not okay. Well, and by the way, the AP was the first to report that a court has given ICE agents the power to go into homes to arrest migrants without a warrant. And that's what happened in the case of Chung Lee Scott Tao, a naturalized citizen from Laos, part of the Hmong community in St. Paul, as are you. You are Hmong. And Scott Tao is the man who was dragged out of his home in his underwear, driven around for an hour, humiliated, frightened, terrorized, according to his family, and brought back. Minnesota Public Radio told us that ICE agents were actually looking for someone else. We understand he's a family friend of yours.

12:50When you see someone you know, who you know is here legally, who in many ways may look like you or members of your family, how does that hit? You know, the truth is that whether he is close to my family or not, that this is an incident that is reflective of what is happening across our city and our state. That every single person that ICE has accosted has taken. Somebody loves that person. And that they don't have to look like me in order for me to understand that when you tear families apart, you tear away the fabric of what makes us Minnesotans. It might also go to, you tell me, the fact that many of the people who are being taken in this way might look different from the white population.

13:34I mean, St. Paul is home to the largest urban Hmong population in the country. You are the city's first Hmong mayor. I can't imagine that doesn't hit you at home. It does, and it absolutely does. Let's be really clear about what is happening here, is that you are absolutely right. It is people who have darker melanin. It is people who have accents. And it is not our majority population here that is fearing for their lives and is being targeted. Since this is happening, and since ICE, or at least the government, is saying that they have taken thousands of people who are criminals, who have criminal records, is there a way for you as a mayor, for cities to work more closely with ICE to try to direct their operations to people with criminal records?

14:26Look, we are all for law and order. We have always been, you know, federal agents have always been in our cities. They have always worked with our law enforcement on federal cases. The problem is that they are targeting everyday people by the way that they look. If it were a case of just looking at people who are hardened criminals and people with criminal records, absolutely. We are all for removing people who should not be in this country. I wish that that is what they are doing, but it is not. Kali Hur, Mayor of St. Paul, Minnesota, we thank you for your time, especially today. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

15:05By the way, we spoke yesterday with Democratic Congresswoman Delia Ramirez of Illinois about funding bills currently in front of the House that involve immigration enforcement. She wants Democrats to go further than just opposing additional money. Here's a bit of what she told us about why she is in favor of abolishing ICE. We have an incompetent, dangerous leader of Department of Homeland Security. It is not 2018 or 2020. Polls show you that Americans want us to abolish ICE. We have to understand that we can't live in the past. We have to respond to the current crisis. Our democracy is in danger.

15:42Dupro is in danger. This is why today I introduced the Melt ICE Act, which ends the Department of Homeland Security's funding to detain or monitor immigrants, crippling, in essence, DHS's immigration enforcement and making sure that money that is being used to terrorize communities all over the country goes back to the communities most impacted by the lawlessness of ICE. You can hear that whole conversation right now at hereandnow.org. We're going to take one more short break, but coming up, Robin asks how Trump's antagonizing European leaders over Greenland is going over in Russia. Stick around.

16:33Well, Russian leaders are cheering from the sidelines as they watch the canyon grow between the U.S. and its NATO allies over Greenland. Yes, yesterday President Trump pulled back somewhat on his threats about seizing Greenland from Denmark. But this week, a special envoy for Vladimir Putin hailed the collapse of the transatlantic union. Angela Stent is author of Putin's World. She's a longtime Putin watcher with the American Enterprise Institute. She joins us now. Angela, this is probably not surprising to you. No, it doesn't surprise at all. I mean, since President Trump started his second term last year, the Russians have just watched in amazement, you know, how the transatlantic alliance is fraying.

17:14after all the Soviet Union and then Russia after it have tried for, let's say, seven decades to weaken NATO and to separate the U.S. from Europe. And the Greenland issue, of course, this all came to a head. And if they listened to President Trump's speech in Davos, he spent a lot of his time just criticizing Europe and the NATO alliance. So even though he says that the Greenland issue has to do with potential Russian threats to Greenland, And I mean, for them, this just reinforced their glee that the U.S. and Europe are drifting further apart. And I want to underscore something you just said. Yes, seven decades.

17:51The Soviets first, Russians now, have tried to do what Donald Trump seems to be doing in just a few months, taking a bowling ball to NATO. Here's Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. He spoke this week saying Greenland isn't a natural part of Denmark, which, of course, most of the world thinks is. And he used another example of a Russian seizing something from Ukraine. This would be Crimea. Let's listen to this translation from Morning Edition.

18:28As President Trump has said, this territory is important for the security of the United States. Well, Crimea is no less important for the security of the Russian Federation than Greenland is for the U.S. Angela Stent, you know, we know that there are these talks. I'm putting quotes around them because we don't quite know where they are. To settle Russia's war on Ukraine. These comments that we're hearing while those talks are supposed to be going on don't sound as if Russia is going to be saying, yes, we will stop this attempt at seizing Ukraine while you're trying to seize Greenland. Well, exactly.

19:06I mean, all the rhetoric that President Trump used, the historical analogy, you know, this used to be ours and then we gave it back and we need it for our security. It's very similar, not only to what the Russians have said about Crimea, but what they're saying now about the Donbass, the eastern region of Ukraine and the whole of Ukraine. This used to belong to us. Putin believes that Ukraine is really part of Russia. Our security is threatened if Ukraine moves west, and therefore we have every right to take it. So what President Trump has done has really reinforced the Russian narrative. And we know that Mr.

19:41Whitcoff is going to Russia today. He'll have more talks with them. But this is why they're very intransigent about refusing not only to give up territory that they've now occupied in Ukraine, but demanding that Ukraine give them territory in the Donbass, which Ukraine still controls. Talk about what else is going on in this area that the president is seizing on, the Arctic. You know, there is so much more activity there, as the president is saying. We know Russia wants the Arctic itself, but do they want Greenland? Right. So I have to say that today the presidential spokesman in Russia said, Greenland has nothing to do with us.

20:20I mean, there is an exacerbating, I would say, competition for the Arctic now. Russia versus most of the other powers and China, which even though it's not an Arctic power, claims that it has rights there. So in the long run, and given, yes, the melting ice and the changing climate issues there, yes, the Arctic is an area of great power competition. But having said that, you know, President Trump is talking about the Russian danger at the same time as he invites President Putin to join his so-called peace board and at the same time that his negotiator is willing to put pressure on Ukraine. So I think we have very ambiguous messages from this administration about Russia.

21:03Is what we're seeing possibly male leaders competing over who has the biggest landmass? You know, we hear the phrase spheres of influence that once again, the world might be being divided up between superpowers. Is this some of it? I mean, Donald Trump has even said, you have to own it. It's real estate. You have to own it. Is there something to that? So what's very interesting, of course, Russia is the largest country in the world. It has been so for a very long time. If the U.S. were to have seized Greenland, that's the largest land acquisition that the U.S. has, I think, ever done. So some of this is about land grab.

21:42It's a very old-fashioned way of looking at the world, if you like. I mean, I think even if at this point President Trump has come to some agreement with NATO about an enhanced U.S. presence there, his eyes will still be on Greenland. And I think from the Russian point of view, were they to believe that at some point they might not necessarily be the biggest country in the world, that would have a major impact really on their national identity. Angela Stent, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, author of Putin's World. Thank you so much, as always. Thank you. Good to talk to you.

22:20That's our show for today. Here and Now, Anytime comes from NPR and WBUR. Today's stories were produced by Lynn Mennegan, Jill Ryan, and Will Walkie. Our editors were Todd Munt, Micaela Rodriguez, and Kat Welch. Technical direction from Caleb Green and Matt Reed. Our theme music is by Mike Muschietto, Max Liebman, and me, Chris Bentley. Our digital producers are Alison Hagen and Grace Griffin. And here at now's executive producer is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with you tomorrow.