'KPop Demon Hunters': Inside the music behind the Netflix hit

0:00This week on Consider This. It's called an AI spiral. When a person communicating with an AI chatbot loses touch with reality. When I thought I was communicating with the digital god, I got dopamine from every prompt. Artificial intelligence, human consequences. This week on Consider This. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. WBUR Podcasts. Boston. The point is that this is what truth and authenticity sounds like. And it needed to be a song that could build, build, build into a giant demon battle and culminate with the entire stadium singing together. How to write a mega hit with the musician behind K-pop Demon Hunters.

1:00It's Friday, January 9th, and this is Here and Now, Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. I'm Chris Bentley. It's been a tumultuous week in the news. You'd be forgiven for wanting a break over the weekend. If you need to get caught up, go back and listen to our previous four episodes all about Venezuela, the legacy of the Capitol riots, and the ice shooting in Minnesota.

1:30But today on the show, we're answering a burning question that I know many of you have been wondering. What makes the music in K-pop Demon Hunters so damn catchy?

1:47We'll talk with the film's music producer ahead of the Golden Globes this weekend. And after that, mocktails should be more than just expensive fruit juice. We asked an expert bartender how to capture the spirit of our favorite drinks, sans the spirits themselves. First of all, you need balance, and that's true for all cocktails. The other thing you really want to think about is texture, because that's the thing that's really missing from most non-alcoholic cocktails. You want to do anything you can to elevate the texture. But before we head to the bar, the animated film K-pop Demon Hunters is up for three Golden Globe Awards on Sunday, Best Motion Picture Animated, Cinema and Box Office Achievement, and Best Original Song for a tune called Golden.

2:47Golden hit number one on the Billboard Hot 100 and stayed there for months. In fact, the whole K-pop Demon Hunters soundtrack has also topped the charts. And the music is a big reason why K-pop Demon Hunters is now Netflix's most watched film ever. So we wanted to talk to the man behind the music. Ian Eisendrath is executive music producer, vocal producer, and conductor for K-pop Demon Hunters. He spoke to Scott Tong. I want to talk a lot about the music, but maybe we have to talk a little bit about the plot. Can you do that? Can you tell us briefly what this movie is about? Oh, that's always a tough one because it's about so much.

3:26But I'd say like in its essence, it is about a young woman who has been raised to be really the greatest singer of all time, the lead singer of the greatest K-pop group of all time. And the singers are saving the world by bringing people together through the power of connection that can only be found through music. And by doing that, they are sealing the Han Moon, which is the protective layer of the world that keeps the demons out. and our leading lady has a huge secret that is shrouded in shame and that is that she is part demon. And the show is about her figuring out who she is, realizing that we are all made up of many parts and that it's only through vulnerability, honesty, and bringing all of our parts together that we can truly harmonize and save the world.

4:24Taking on our demons. So in this film, directed by Maggie Kong and Chris Appelhans, music is central to the story, right? I recently spoke to a cultural writer, and she said usually when there's a fake band in a show or a movie, the music is not very good. When you helped craft the music for this, did you feel a pressure? Like, we gotta knock this music out of the park and make it really good? A thousand percent. I think that, first of all, the pressure or the opportunity is another way to say it, came from Maggie and Chris and the studio's vision that we really create an authentic K-pop girl group.

5:05And the way to do that is actually to use the people that have created that music to actually go to the hit makers, which I really do want to credit Spring Aspers, who's president of Sunny Pictures' music department. And she immediately formed a really strong bond with the Black Label, who are behind so many groups, including Blackpink and the artist Rosé, and brought them on board our team, among many other K-pop artists. So we had this incredible stable of K-pop hitmakers whose paths had never crossed before, but this was this crazy opportunity for all of this collaboration. And so, yes, the pressure was high, and that meant that there were dozens and dozens of songs written for the film, that were thrown out until we found the perfect songs.

5:54Oh, they were. And then it was about, once the songs were written, finding this vocal talent and shaping this vocal talent to become a group that had its own identity. I want to play a clip of how it's done. The group is Huntrix in the film and Real Life, performed by EJ, Audrey Nuna, and Ray Ami. Let's play it. Huntrix, go quick. How it's done, done, done.

6:31So this is the first song in the film. Tell us a little how it came together. Yeah, this is one that had many stages of development. Early on, EJ Kim, who everyone now knows as the voice of Rumi and lead singer of Huntrix, had created demos with Daniel Rojas, who contributed to the score. They'd created something called Bite Back. It had a lot of the ferocity and intensity of how it's done. So we actually ended up using some elements from that original song, Bite Back, in terms of just sort of the feel and the vibe. And Ian, you used the word ferocity. Yes. I mean, at the start of the movie, it kind of needs a little ferocity in the song.

7:16Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we wanted to capture all of the intensity of these badass demon fighters, demon hunters. And we needed to musicalize that right away. And basically, because what happens is these Saja boys come along, the demon boy band that tries to steal the fans. The competing K-pop band. Yeah. But we had to establish that until then, these girls ruled the town. And then comes this boy band, the Demons in Disguise, known as the Saja Boys. They burst onto the scene with this song, Soda Pop.

8:08Now, Ian, here's the thing, right? This band also sings in the movie a very different, much darker song called Your Idol. And here's some of that. Yes. Keeping you in check, keeping you obsessed Play me on repeat without cheating your head Anytime it hurts, play another verse I can be a sanctuary No, I'm the only one right now I will love you more when it all burns down More than power, more than gold Yeah, you gave me your heart, now I'm here for your soul So I guess I want to ask you how, when you have the music version of the blank screen, How do you think about, we have to capture all these things, the bright side and the dark side of this band?

8:55Because the story comes first, it feels like so much less of a blank screen to me than I think people might think it is. Because if you know, you know, that there's this boy band, they make the plan to steal the fans. And the way they're going to do it is to become this really adorable group of singers, sort of in the style of a BTS. and they're going to show up and they're going to look innocent. Well, so it tells you the kind of song you need, right? You need something that is disarming. You need something that's super sweet and naive, a little bit like bubblegum pop. But actually, if you just listen to the words, it's like, ooh, these guys are actually parasites.

9:33And then I think the way the story goes, we know that by the last 15 minutes of the film, the Saja boys are now unmasked. so we get to see who these demons really are. Well, that demands something really tough, really dark. There were many, many influences that we had for that song. And so it's like story dictates the music. Okay, the movie culminates with the song, This Is What It Sounds Like. Let's play some of that. We broke into a million pieces and we can't go back But now we're seeing all the beauty in the broken glass The stars are part of me Darkness in harmony My voice without the lies This is what it sounds like What makes this such a strong song at the end of the film?

10:24Well, I will say this song, this moment is the whole reason I wanted to do the film. Because I loved this idea of the world is separated by this shield that separates the humans from the demons. It's very binary. It's black or white. And Rumi doesn't fit in that. And so she faces the demon king and she does it by saying, this is who I am. I'm not going to hide anymore. You are not going to separate me with shame and secrecy. And it is through standing in that truth and owning that, that she actually is willing to bring everyone together to create a new song that is going to be the song that is going to free the world.

11:10And the idea of finding a hook that talks about singing, that talks about sound, you know, took a while to get to. There was a lot of different ideas on how to do this. But the point is that this is what truth and authenticity sounds like. And it needed to be a song that could build, build, build into a giant demon battle and culminate with the entire stadium singing together. All right, finally, Ian, most important question comes from someone who, like me, has these songs rattling, rattling around in his head. And that is our producer, Julia's son, Henry, six years old. Here's Henry. Okay, my question is, when you think of catchiness, what do you think of?

12:00And how do you make it so catchy? My gosh, Henry, that's everyone's goal and everyone's question. There's certainly a thing called a hook, the very simple, repeated, melodic, and or lyric idea. And it's something that you're always looking for in a song. Sometimes it's where you start when you write it. Sometimes it's where you end. But it's like, what is that thing that can keep repeating over and over again? This is what it sounds like. Be your idol. My little soda pop. How it's done, done, done. gonna be gonna be golden these are all these things that sort of repeat and cement their way into your mind and your ear but there's so many other things right there's the beat there's the way the music opens up and builds the harmony i think some catchiness is just like this sort of magical miracle that happens in the universe as you create a song and you just you have to let it happen.

13:04Deconstructing catchiness. That is Ian Eisendrath, executive music producer, vocal producer, and conductor for the film K-pop Demon Hunters. Huge hit. Congratulations Ian and thanks for the time. Thank you so much Scott. It was so good to meet you. This is what it sounds like

13:29Coming up next We've got some recipes for mocktails to liven up your dry January. Grab some coconut water, and we'll be right back. Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from SelectQuote. For over 40 years, SelectQuote has been one of the most trusted brokers in insurance. Their mission is simple, to find you the right insurance policy for your unique needs. They shop, you save. In as little as 15 minutes, SelectQuote's licensed agents will compare policies from trusted, top-rated insurance companies to find you the best fit for your health, your lifestyle, and your budget. And they work for you for free.

14:11Get the right life insurance for you and save more than 50 % at SelectQuote.com slash anytime. That's 50 % off at SelectQuote.com slash anytime. Godspeed if you're giving dry January a try. Maybe you're not much of a drinker to begin with, like an increasing share of younger Americans, at least compared to older generations. But we talked to someone who can convince even the most mocktail skeptical drinker to give them a try. Joe Gitter is with America's Test Kitchen and recently edited a book all about cocktails and mocktails. It's called Cocktails Illustrated. You might remember we talked to him last month about making the perfect cocktail.

14:53And if you need something stronger, go check out our episode from December 26th for that. Joe also showed Indira Lakshmanan some tricks for making mocktails. Joe, it's great to have you back. Great to be back here. It used to be that mocktails were, you know, mocked as an idea. The Shirley Temple, which I think of as the original mocktail, is a drink that was literally named after a child. And mocktails were long dismissed as a glorified fruit juice. But now I see more and more creative mocktails on serious menus. And there are some absolutely delicious zero-proof spirits out there that really make it seem like you're having the real thing.

15:32So has mocktail culture grown up? Absolutely. I mean, we did not want mocktails, A, to be mocked. And we didn't want them to be an afterthought. So we didn't group them together at some part of the book so that they were somewhat less than the rest of the book. No, we integrated them throughout the entire book. So, okay, you've got some ingredients for us today for zero-proof cocktails. Let's start with a twist on the daiquiri. Instead of the usual white rum, this one is made with coconut water? Yeah, because, I mean, as you said, there are loads of these alcohol-free spirits that are available out there.

16:03And they can be very good. You can make great cocktails with it. But the problem is they're wildly different. So one version of an alcohol-free rum will be very different from another. So I can't give you a recipe that's going to give you the same results every time because your alcohol-free spirit is going to taste so different. Pretty much all bourbon tastes like bourbon. That's not true for alcohol-free bourbon. So instead, we think you should turn to things that you can find commonly in your home or in the grocery store. And one thing we found that was an amazing, amazing ingredient to use again and again, coconut water.

16:36And so what I'm doing is I'm going to add two ounces of coconut water to our cocktail shaker. Great. And then it's a sour cocktail, which means it's got something acidic in it. All right. And a daiquiri uses lime juice. Oh, great. So you're squirting into the jigger there the lime juice. Two ounces of coconut to three quarters of an ounce of lime juice. So it's almost a three to one ratio. And then we're going to add a little bit of simple syrup because a sour cocktail is sour, but it's balanced with a bit of sweet. So I'm going to add just a half ounce of simple syrup. So I've added those three ingredients to the cocktail shaker.

17:08And now we're going to fill it with ice. And I'm gonna take my cocktail shaker, I'm gonna cap it and something really magical happens to a drink when it's shaken in a cocktail shaker with ice

17:34I'm gonna get my strainer I'm going to attach it to my cocktail shaker, and then I'm going to strain it into our two coops. Oh, my gosh. It's gorgeous, and it's kind of pink and foamy. Exactly. Some of the proteins in the coconut water will help generate this semi-stable foam here. Yeah. And this is what makes the drink so aromatic. I've got a thin lime slice, which we call a wheel. I'm just going to perch it on the edge of the glass. Okay. Handing it over. Okay, excellent. Let's have a cheers. Let's have a cheers. Oh, my goodness. That's great. This is transporting me to a beach in the Caribbean somewhere and making me think, what would you pair with this mocktail for January dishes?

18:12This is not a very sweet sour. So it means it actually goes very well with a lot of different foods. Great with sushi, great with fish. Probably wouldn't pair it with a steak or anything like that. But, you know, a light pasta dish as well, something with some vegetables in it. It goes really well. You really don't want to overpower it with too many spices that are too heavy or anything that's too fatty. All right, so that's one where you didn't even need to use fake spirits. What about those non-alcoholic versions of spirits? Are there any that you find to be particularly accurate replacements, or are most of them very different from the originals?

18:45We just found that there was none that you could just replace one for one and get a drink that still felt like the original. There is one exception, I will say, that is really an excellent product. There are a couple of non-alcoholic aperitifs and aperitif syrups. So normally they'll be red, they'll be deep orange, and they're really meant to mimic an Aperol or a Campari, the bitter orange flavors that you really like. And they were fantastic in cocktails. But beside those two, we really didn't want to recommend people go and buy these$30,$40,$50 bottles because you can get by with a$4 bottle of coconut water.

19:20Yeah, they are expensive. Some people who are taking the dry January, it is a way to save money as well because alcohol is not cheap. but you're giving us an experience that is elevated. This does not feel cheap. So I want to know what is it that elevates your zero-proof cocktail to be more than just glorified juice or a smoothie? Is it the mixing? Is it the modeling? Is it the syrup? What gives a mocktail the complexity that you've given this? Well, first of all, you need balance, and that's true for all cocktails. The other thing you really want to think about is texture because that's the thing that's really missing from most non-alcoholic cocktails.

20:00Because, you know, if you just mix some fruit juice with some grenadine, it's just going to have the texture of fruit juice. But, you know, so you want to do anything you can to elevate the texture. So here we did that by using coconut water, which has got a lovely viscosity to it. And we further improved that texture by aerating it, by shaking it over ice. Right. Other things you can do, you can use things like, there's actually a great product called vegetable glycerin, which is something that people use in makeup, but it really holds on to moisture and it's very thick and viscous. And it gives you a silky texture to your mocktail.

20:33Fantastic. Exactly. So you can replace some of the texture that you lose from the alcohol.

20:41More great drink ideas coming up after this short break.

20:52Let's go to the next zero-proof cocktail that you've brought today. It's a tonic water-based mocktail. Tell me what we've got here. Yes. Tonic water is just so often overlooked. You've got sweetness. You've got sourness. You've got a little bit of bitterness. You've got some effervescence. You've got the bubbles. So you've already got three or four things that help make a great cocktail. And because it's so intriguing, that sweet, sour, bitter profile, you just need to add little accents to it to just take it to that next level. So what are you making for us? So today I'm going to make for you a T &T.

21:22Not a G &T, a T &T. Okay. So this is a tamarind and tonic. Ooh, exciting. So this is a really fun one. Now this is hitting my South Asian roots here. Right, exactly. I love it. Indira, I know that you're a fan of my ice, so I bought you another type this time. Ooh. Hand-cut small cubes. Oh, la-di-da. Which is definitely not for the everyday. All right. And then to that, we're going to add two ounces of tamarind nectar, which is something just buying grocery stores. All right. And then the other thing that we're going to add to it are tonic water. And that's got a contrasting texture. It's got the bubbles.

21:54It's a lot thinner. That's really going to aromatize all of the subtle flavors in our drink and send it right into your nose. And so you'll be able to enjoy it even more. Okay, so I've added my two ounces of tamarind nectar. And then we're going to balance out some sweetness with a half ounce of lime juice. Excellent. To balance out that lime juice, we're going to add a quarter ounce of simple syrup. So what we've done is really amped up the complexity of this drink. So we've got the tamarind nectar, which is already dark and treacly, a little tart, a little sour. And then we're going to add more sourness with some lime juice and freshness, and then balance that out with the sweetness.

22:25So sweet, sour, bitter, complex. And then we're going to add our tonic water and just fill it up. And then I'm going to use my bar spoon to gently lift the ice so that the nectar and the tonic water can combine without stirring out the bubbles. Now, I'm just looking at that drink, and it starts out with this dark brown at the bottom and a kind of caramel in the middle and a tan at the top. And just from your bar spoon, you've managed to mix it into all one beautiful level colour. Thank you. With a gorgeous lime slice, beautifully cut. Cheers. Okay, cheers. Cheers.

23:07Now that's transporting me to another beach, not the Caribbean this time. Okay, where? In India, Kerala Goa. This is amazing. Have a go and fish curry with it, maybe something like that. Very refreshing, not too sweet. Going to give you some bubbles and just really add some confident-y flavors. You know, it doesn't have coffee in it, but something about it tastes a little bit the bitterness of the coffee. It brings to mind that in your book, you talk about all different ways to make zero-proof cocktails. The imagination you show, I love, because you're not just saying alcohol-free replacements for aperitifs, but you're also saying unsweetened juices, strongly brewed tea, which I love as a tea drinker.

23:49You're mentioning coffee, flavored syrup, spices and herbs, everything from fresh turmeric root to all sorts of earthy, bitter flavors, chili, lime, basil, eggs and dairy. Which makes me think of like there's got to be an alcohol-free version of the Pisco Sour that you could make, right? Yeah. I mean, this is cool. It really is. I would just play around with the daiquiri. You can add an egg white to it and you get that same sort of silky texture to it. Well, I don't know, Joe, you're convincing me. Maybe I need to give January a dry try. I wasn't thinking of it before, but now I'm thinking maybe I got to do it just to give myself, you know, 30 days to get through this book here.

24:32Well, maybe start out with a damp January and then you can progress to dry if you really need to. All right. I love it. Give us one more mocktail for the road. Tell people what you'd like them to try that we can go home and do ourselves. I think my favorite mocktail in the whole book, it's a little bit more involved, but it's totally worth it. It's a non-alcoholic Manhattan. You make a concentrated tea using Lapsang Souchong, which is that smoky tea. It's smoked over cedarwood. And you add rosemary to it, which gives it herbaceousness. So that takes the place, really, of whiskey. It's smoky. It's herbaceous.

25:06And then to that, we add some tart cherry juice, dried, intense fruit flavor. And then you make it slightly more viscous using the vegetable glycerin. And then you just have this cocktail, which really tastes like the alcoholic equivalent without any alcohol and super complex. I love it. It's also a chemistry project that I can maybe do with my young teenage son. No alcohol involved, you know, helps him with his chemistry lessons, I think. Exactly. Joe Gitter is America's Test Kitchen senior book editor. Thank you so much. Happy New Year and cheers. Happy New Year, India. It's been such a pleasure.