'No Superman': Brown student recounts fleeing shooter

0:00Support for WBUR comes from Is Business Broken? A podcast from the Mehrotra Institute at Boston University that explores questions like, why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? And, of course, is business broken? Listen wherever you get your podcasts. WBUR Podcasts. Boston. It's like there's no Superman who's going to save the day. It's you and your friends. If I had like 60 seconds of warning, I could have like run into the classroom and just yelled something. A Brown University student recounts the mass shooting on campus. It's Monday, December 15th, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBR.

0:50I'm Chris Bentley. Today on the show, following up on a weekend of tragedies. We'll get the latest on the mass shootings in Australia and Rhode Island, as well as an update on the deaths of Hollywood royalty Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer. We'll hear how those acts of violence are reverberating around the world. What we've seen in the last 24 hours ago was the worst of humanity in a terrorist act. But we also saw an example of the best of humanity in Ahmed El Ahmed. And in about 15 minutes, we'll listen back to some of Here and Now's past interviews with Rob Reiner. But first, police in Providence, Rhode Island, are once again searching for the gunman who killed two students and injured nine others in a classroom at Brown University on Saturday.

1:49They had detained a man who was a person of interest, but then released him. So the government is still at large. Classes and exams for the rest of the semester have been canceled, and school officials have said students can start their winter break early. Robin Young spoke earlier with Ref Bari, a physics graduate student at Brown, who was inside the building when the shooting started. Ref, we thank you so much for being with us. How are you doing? I'm doing okay, Robin. Thank you for having me on. Well, this is the Barris and Holly building on the Providence campus. And you were coming down a staircase.

2:30What did you hear? So I was walking down the staircase down to the main commons area of the building. And that's when I heard the first ring of shots, like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And it felt like it was right behind me. Did you know what it was? No, no, no. God, no. So in fact, the last thing on my mind was gunshots. I mean, I thought, okay, look, I mean, I thought it was maybe construction. It could be something. Nothing could have pointed it to gunshots. Yeah, yeah. Because when I glanced behind me, the lobby was empty. So I thought, okay, clearly if I heard something behind me, there's nothing behind me.

3:09It's probably, you know, I don't want to freak out. Well, and then you heard it again. And then I heard it again, yeah. And now you knew. Now, you started running, trying to get out, as did other students. But you said something that really stayed with me. You said a lot of the other students, people in the area, seemed oblivious because they were wearing headphones. So there's about 100 students studying in the commons area of Baris and Holly. So during the first ring of gunshots, people start to take out their headphones and start to stop what they're doing, just like I was, like their first confused.

3:47But the second ring of gunshots is what does it. And it's almost like silence in the commons area, but people just start running for the exits. Silently. That also just pierces. It's really scary. Yeah. The shooting is going on in room 160, as we know horribly. And you're now trying to tell kids outside. That's right. So when I made it to the other side of the street, people from the science library were coming out it was just another Saturday like they were they had no idea what was going on just literally next door so I started shouting active shooter active shooter run and I just kept running down like Sarah Street I was just trying to get as far as I could yeah and we always used to do you know shelter drills shooter drills you know there's no textbook situation for this right it's like you're walking down a staircase and you hear gunshots behind you.

4:45What do you do? There's a hundred people in front of you. You can't go. Right. You bump into a friend who brings you into her bathroom. Right. So, so her name is Ali. And the crazy thing is I didn't even know Ali before, like two seconds before. So like I was running on there. Right. And I actually was FaceTiming my parents. They were screaming and I was just like holding the phone running. And then I see this girl who's running on the same street as I am. People are coming out of Starbucks like it's a regular Saturday. We should tell people Brown University is embedded in a neighborhood. That's right.

5:23And I asked her if I can hide with her and took a tremendous amount of risk taking me in, but she did. And so we hid in Ellie's bathroom for two hours. Yeah. Oh, geez. Terrifying. can you explain how it feels today knowing that there was a person of interest and then they've been released and that you know the shooter is still at large i mean it's just so much anxiety and fear in the community right but in those hours that i was in the bathroom with ali so it was four of us stuck in like a four by four like space like sitting on the floor of her bathroom and there were rumors that the the shooter was out on their street like meters feet from us and it was so terrifying because I called 911 in Ellie's bathroom and I you know I said there's an actor like I there was gunshots behind me officer and the officer said that at this time We don't know how many active shooters there are.

6:31Please stay under shelter. And it's just this feeling of helplessness, right? It's like there's no Superman who's going to save the day. It's you and your friends. You know, there's this thing called survivor's guilt. All of that stuff is going through my head right now. Like five feet behind me. Is this, I can't curse, but is this individual walking into a classroom, if I had like 60 seconds of warning, I could have like run into the classroom and just yelled something. You know, it's like this feeling that like if I had any idea, I could have done something. You warned people with headphones on, you know, you warned people coming the other way.

7:19You did an extraordinary amount. I just wish you some peace with this. it's not going to come for a while, but I just wish it for you. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you, Robin. Thanks for sharing the story.

7:34Coming up next, police in Australia are learning more about the father and son who opened fire on a beachside Hanukkah celebration yesterday, killing at least 15 people. Cops say they shot both gunmen, one fatally, after a Good Samaritan tackled and disarmed one of the shooters. The man who intervened was also hospitalized. The Prime Minister of Australia, Anthony Albanese, called it a terrorist attack and said, quote, Australians overwhelmingly stand with the Jewish community at this difficult time. That did not stop Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, from accusing Albanese of weakness and insinuating the attack was a response to Australia's recognition of a Palestinian state earlier this year.

8:21There is no evidence of any connection there. But Jews around the world are mourning and speaking out against anti-Semitism. After the break, our brand new here-and-now host, Indira Lakshmanon, has more.

8:47Thank you.

9:17you the best fit for your health, your lifestyle, and your budget. And they work for you for free. Get the right life insurance for you and save more than 50 % at selectquote.com slash anytime. That's 50 % off at selectquote.com slash anytime. Officials say a father and son killed at least 15 people who had gathered to celebrate Hanukkah, the Jewish Festival of Lights, in Sydney, Australia on the famed Bondi Beach on Sunday. It is the worst mass shooting in Australia in nearly 30 years, and it comes amid a dramatic rise in anti-Semitic incidents in Australia since the October 7, 2023 Hamas attacks on Israel.

9:58Australia is one of the worst spikes of anti-Semitism anywhere in the world. Marina Rosenberg is Senior Vice President for International Affairs at the Anti-Defamation League. Marina, thank you for joining us to talk about this terrible attack. Thank you for having me. I understand you were just in Australia yourself for a meeting of Jewish diaspora representatives and visited the very beach where this happened. What was your reaction when you heard about this shooting? I was devastated and heartbroken and, to be honest, angry because we went there last week, I just came back four days ago, with the leaders of the seven biggest Jewish communities outside of Israel, the J7, to sound the alarm, to meet with Australian parliamentarians and government, and to express our deep concern from the huge rise in anti-Semitism in Australia.

10:53in the past two years. And I remember clearly standing outside of a synagogue in Melbourne that was firebombed just a year ago. We were at the press conference and I said, we call the Australian government to do better and do more to protect the Jewish community here before it's too late. So we sounded the alarm. We met with everybody that we thought would make a difference. And unfortunately, it did not make a difference in a timely manner. And now there are 15 people that were brutally murdered in Australia. And Marina, I understand you know two of the people who were injured. Do you know how they're doing?

11:38Yeah, they're recovering physically. I assume that it will take much more time to recover emotionally from this horrible attack. I was in touch with them and expressed our support and solidarity. My friends and colleagues also knew one of the victims, Rabbi Eli Shlango, that was the first victim to be recognized, was murdered yesterday. And it's very tough. It's tough to know that the people that we just spent Shabbat only a few days ago are no longer with us or are injured and recovering. But I have to say that, you know, though we're shocked, we are not surprised. And this is not an isolated incident.

12:28It is the tragic but predictable result of normalized, escalating, hateful, anti-Semitic rhetoric and activity. Well, let's get straight to that, because Australia's Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, has said the government is prepared to take whatever actions are necessary, including tougher gun laws. You're asking him to take specific actions to combat anti-Semitism. What do you want to see done? So first, we want him to adopt and implement the national action plan that his own special envoy to combat antisemitism presented over half a year ago, and the government basically ignored and didn't even adopt it.

13:07Secondly, to have better legislation to make sure that the education system includes Holocaust education and education on anti-Semitism, to make sure that anti-Semites are held accountable for their hate and to show clear moral leadership. And not just Australia, but we're demanding it from leaders around the world. It is not okay for Jewish people to be scared to be publicly Jewish. Let's hear a very quick clip from Prime Minister Albanese speaking to the Australian Broadcasting corporation. What we've seen in the last 24 hours ago was the worst of humanity in a terrorist act, but we also saw an example of the best of humanity in Ahmad al-Ahmad running towards danger, putting his own life at risk.

14:09Marina, he's talking about a bystander, a Muslim father of two whose His family is from Syria, who is seen in a video tackling one of the gunmen, taking the gun away from him. The prime minister has credited him with saving lives. He's now in the hospital recovering. What do you take away from that? So first, that person is a hero. And it's heartwarming to know that he was not Jewish and he did the right thing. And this is what we're asking leaders to do, to do the right thing, to protect their Jewish communities, to do it here in the U.S., to do it in Australia, and to do it in Europe. Jewish individuals just want to be safe and proud Jews.

14:50Marina Rosenberg, Senior Vice President for International Affairs at the Anti-Defamation League, thank you so much for joining us, Marina. Thank you.

15:03Coming up, Hollywood is remembering actor and director Rob Reiner as one of the most significant figures in the history of film and television. Reiner and his wife, Michelle Singer, were found dead in their Brentwood, California home yesterday of stab wounds. This morning, police in L.A. say they arrested Reiner and Singer's son, Nick, in connection with the killings. As we follow that news, we at Here and Now are, like so many, fondly remembering Reiner's work, which we were lucky enough to talk with him about three times over the years. After the break, Robin Young reflects and listens back to some of our previous conversations with the late Rob Reiner.

15:43Stick around.

15:57Hollywood is in shock. Many of us are in shock. Over the deaths of Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle. Well, police have arrested their son. Rob Reiner was a beloved actor. Oh, meathead and all in the family. But then he went on to direct so many cherished films. Splash, The Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally. We were lucky to have several conversations with Rob Reiner, and here's a taste. Some of his films were political. In 2024, he and Michelle were producers of the documentary God and Country, a terrific, highly researched look at the rise of Christian nationalism in this country. We spoke with Rob last year about that film.

16:35Most of the people we talk to are very respected, conservative Christian leaders who are appalled at what this Christian right movement, which is a political movement, make no mistake about it, it has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. And that's what these people point out. Not only is it a danger to democracy, this movement is a danger to democracy, but it's a danger to Christianity itself. You mentioned Jesus, and many people know you're of the Jewish faith. Yeah. But you, it turns out, have a deep connection to the teachings of Jesus? Well, I do. I mean, you know, first of all, Jesus was a Jewish person.

17:15And when I went through the roughest time of my life, you know, the dark time of the soul, and what I came away with is when you think about the core idea of what Jesus taught, which is to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And that stuck with me. And when I look at the Christian nationalist movement, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with that. Rob Freiner in 2024. Further back in 2017, he directed LBJ, a look at the man who would become our 36th president. Woody Harrelson played Johnson as the powerful leader of the Senate, who would give up that role in order to be John F.

17:54Kennedy's vice president, only to be sidelined by JFK and his brother Robert. But Johnson would ascend to the presidency upon Kennedy's assassination. As Rob Reiner told us, his feelings about LBJ changed over time. As I was watching the film, I was thinking of the liberal meathead that you played in All in the Family and guessing that you as a young man might have been one of those who did not like LBJ because of the war. Not only did I not like him, I hated him. I was of draft age during that period and I was against the war for moral and legal reasons. I felt it was wrong and I hated him because he could send me to my death.

18:35I could get drafted. And so I had a certain view of Lyndon Johnson when I was young. And as I've matured and I've now spent a lot of time in politics, in government. I had a government job in California for seven years. I started to understand and appreciate what he was able to accomplish domestically and how difficult it is to get legislative accomplishments through. Talk about the portrayal in your film. Woody Harrelson, he wears prosthetics, the ears, the jowl, the hair. Your sense of what he gets about L.E.J. Well, the thing that's great about Woody is he embodied what I tried to get out of this guy.

19:15He's a very complex person. He's almost Shakespearean, Johnson. You know, mixed with this incredible bravado, arm-twisting bull in the china shop, he has a sensitive side. He's very insecure about his abilities, his looks. He also had this fear that his mother would not love him. She would withhold her love at times. It was a conditional love. He had to be doing what she wanted him to do. He was frightened of not being loved, and it paralyzed him at times. And so you see this indecision that he has. But once he is able to make that decision, he moved forward. And once he did that, there was no stopping him.

19:57Then he was that bull in the China show. Not just the Civil Rights Act, but Head Start, the Voting Rights Act. Medicaid, Medicare. You mentioned he's a Shakespearean character. It would be, what, a tragic one? Because if he hadn't gotten bogged down in Vietnam. Yeah, no, there's no question. It's tragedy because had it not been for Vietnam, He would have gone down as one of the greatest presidents of all time. Nobody had a greater domestic legislative achievement than him, except for FDR. But you can't take Vietnam away. It's there. And so that's what makes it tragic. Rob Reiner in 2017. And of course, we remember him for his romantic comedies.

20:37So it was a joy in 2014 to talk to him about his film. And so it goes, a love story set in the senior set. Michael Douglas played Oren, a widower who begins a romance with his neighbor, played by the late Diane Keaton, a woman whose values Oren comes to appreciate. Though, as we hear in the scene, his courting skills need work. Last time I had sex, I tore my ACL. Is this relevant to anything? Well, I just thought of some information that you should have. Is this by any chance some pathetic attempt at flirtation? Well, when you put it that way, no. Good night, Oren. Rob Reiner visited us to talk about And So It Goes and more.

21:19Of course, everybody's thinking Harry Met Sally decades later. But you've said this, that there's sort of a same theme that reappears. Yes, I basically make the same movie over and over again. It's men and women, and the only way that I can make a movie about them is to explore what I know about men being one of them and what women are, you know? And essentially what I've discovered, whether it's flipped, which is about 12-year-olds or a sure thing, they're teenagers, or when Harry met Sally or now and so it goes, is essentially women are just more evolved than men. They know more of who they are.

21:58They're much more emotionally mature. They are more settled with what they want out of life in a relationship. and men kind of run around like idiots trying to figure out what's going on until they're able to see the wisdom of the woman that's right there in front of them and know what's important. It's the women that teach the men what is important in life. It's played as if they are old. There's a lot of fumbling around when there's movement towards the bedroom, a lot of, I don't really know how to do this anymore. What we're saying is that we are sexual beings and we will continue to be sexual beings, you know, until we go.

22:40And so that's what we're saying about this movie, which is you embrace life. You don't know how long you're going to live. You know, you could live a day, you know, or you could live many years. But if something presents itself as a person in front of you that you think, ooh, this is a person I like that I could spend time with, you know, sex does become a part of it. And it is still awkward, you know, for two people meeting for the first time. I don't care whether they're teenagers or their experience. Rob Reiner, there's such affection for people in your films. Where does that come from? Well, I think, you know, it's celebrating our time on the planet.

23:19I love people. I love stories about people and what they go through. And what I like to say is, let's celebrate life. Let's celebrate it until it's over, you know, because it's going to be over. And so rather than, you know, hit people on the head with, you know, all the things that are negative, and there are plenty of negative things in people, but if you find the right way to blend the two, because that is the life experience. Well, I wonder if that affection that just feels, that's the word I think of when I think of your films. I just wonder if that comes from the Hollywood that you must have grown up in.

23:54Your dad, Carl Reiner, of course, creator of classics like Dick Van Dyke Show. But then his friends, Mel Brooks, Norman Lear. There was a niceness. Yeah, well, I mean, they have fun with each other. I mean, they like to make each other laugh. and I was very privileged to be around them and see how much they embraced and enjoyed life. And so, you know, listen, they have their dark sides too. Anybody who makes humor for a living has got a dark side. But, you know, there's nothing better than trying to make people laugh. I mean, it's a great way to live your life. I don't want to go all, you know, Oprah on you.

24:34Okay. Lie down. Are you out from Mother New Year's dad's shadow? Were you ever under it? You feel pretty comfortable with it. Yeah, I'm way out of it. Way out, yeah. I mean, I certainly did experience it when I was young growing up. I knew what that felt like. And they tell a story about me, and I don't remember doing this, but my mother says that when I was about eight years old, I went to her and I said to her, you know, I want to change my name. And she thought, oh, this poor kid, you know, he's living under the shadow called Reiner. It's too much for him. And she said, well, what do you want to change your name to?

25:11And I said, Carl. And so it was a big shadow, but I still liked him, and I love him, and I wanted to be him. And I idolized him. I looked up to him. So, yeah, it was rough when I was a kid. But, you know, I've made my bones, as they say. Oh, Rob Reiner, did you ever. Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle, were both found dead in their home yesterday. Friends said they had so many more projects. So much more to give.

25:44That's our show for today. Here and Now, Anytime comes from NPR and WBUR Boston. Today's stories were produced by Lynn Menningon, Jill Ryan, and Emiko Tamagawa. Today's editors were Mark Navin, Mikaela Rodriguez, Michael Scotto, and Kat Welch. Technical direction from Caleb Green and Matt Reed. Our theme music is by Mike Moschetto, Max Liebman, and me, Chris Bentley. Our digital producers are Alison Hagen and Grace Griffin. And here at now's executive producer is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with you tomorrow.