Redacted Epstein files reveal 'little new insight'

0:00Support for this podcast comes from Nature is the Solution, a podcast from the Nature Conservancy. This show tells climate stories like a stubborn optimist, because hope, innovation, and nature itself are key to solving the challenges ahead. Follow on your favorite podcast app. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. We are in every way, shape, and form complying with the statute, which, by the way, is what President Trump has been asking us to do since before he was elected. There is nothing that he has to hide in the Epstein files. There never was. The Trump administration is once again on defense over its handling of files related to well-connected sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.

0:58It's Monday, December 22nd, and this is Here and Now anytime from NPR and WBR. I'm Chris Bentley. Today on the show, why the maker of one of Kentucky's most popular bourbons is pausing production at its main distillery. Also, the recent National Defense Authorization Act included some non-military items, like the federal recognition of the Lumbee tribe. Some people in North Carolina have been calling for recognition for decades, But other tribes have questioned the Lumbee's authenticity. This is a huge moment for the Lumbee. You're talking about 60 ,000 people. They would become overnight one of the largest tribes in the country, and that's going to open them up to being able to take land into trust, create a reservation, and then become part of the casino gaming industry.

1:50That story coming up in about 10 minutes. But first, the Department of Justice says more Epstein files are coming after many mocked the heavy redactions in Friday's document dump. Attorney General Pam Bondi was supposed to release all of the documents with limited exceptions by last Friday at midnight under a law passed by Congress. She did not, only making about half of them public, including hundreds of pages entirely blacked out. And some lawmakers say she should be charged with contempt. Eric Tucker covers the Justice Department for the AP. He's been poring over the documents, and he talked to Indira Lakshmanan about what stands out to him.

2:31You know, one of the things that I think is really interesting is that there are not many substantive new details for people who have been closely following this investigation. There are some records that certainly enhance our understanding, including some detail about a decision to not bring a felony case against Jeffrey Epstein in Florida nearly two decades ago. And obviously there are lots of photos, as you mentioned, including some notable ones of Bill Clinton. But it's also certainly notable that Donald Trump is barely mentioned at all in this tranche of documents and photographs. And I think that's something that the public has really seized on to ask questions of the Justice Department.

3:07And is the administration trying to distract from President Trump's known past friendship with Epstein by focusing on a Democrat? So they are adamant that that is not the case. And, you know, we saw Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche make the rounds on television over the weekend in which he basically said, look, Donald Trump's association, his past association with Jeffrey Epstein is so well known that there would, of course, be no effort to conceal any kind of documentation or records of that. And they do say that there are additional records and photographs and documents that are going to be coming before the end of the year.

3:42So they are pushing back hard against that assertion. OK, well, there are a lot of questions after at least 16 documents were removed after being made public, including images of Trump with Epstein before they were then reposted. What happened and why? Yeah, so that was a really curious discovery that happened on Saturday afternoon without really any notice to the public about what had occurred. subsequent to that, the Justice Department has said that, you know, they're doing this ongoing review and their, you know, primary purpose is to protect the information of victims and protect the identities.

4:15And so they decided out of an abundance of caution and apparently after having been contacted by additional attorneys to make that decision. But it certainly did not promote confidence in sort of the integrity of this process. We saw a legal complaint from a victim referred to as Jane Doe, who said she was 14 when she was introduced to Trump at Mar-a-Lago. The complaint said that Epstein elbowed Trump playfully, asking him, this is a good one, right, referring to the girl, and that Trump smiled and nodded in agreement. They both chuckled. And the girl said she felt uncomfortable, but at the time was too young to understand why.

4:52So what more are we learning about the victims and their attempts to fight back against their abuser? So, you know, it is a really interesting thing. I think one of the things that we have noticed from these documents is that there were victim complaints that were surfaced decades ago, you know, to the FBI in the mid-1990s. And so there are additional questions being raised about Jeffrey Epstein's conduct and sort of why it was not stopped in advance. But it's also worth knowing that the victims are not content with the information that's been put out there. They say there's a lot more that the public needs to see.

5:28On CBS yesterday, Republican Congressman Thomas Massey and Democrat Ro Khanna threatened to pursue contempt filings against Attorney General Bondi. Here's Massey. They're flouting the spirit and the letter of the law. It's very troubling, the posture that they've taken. And I won't be satisfied until the survivors are satisfied. So what do you think is going to happen with that, Eric? You know, I think given the fact that the Republicans have the majority at the moment in both chambers of Congress and, of course, control the Justice Department, I think there's probably not that much from a practical perspective that we can expect to see.

6:07It is not unheard of for Congress to make contempt findings and issue referrals to the Justice Department, but those referrals go to the United States Attorney for the District of Columbia, in which case that is somebody who's, you know, Jeanine Pirro, who was a Trump loyalist. And so one would not expect that to the extent there's any effort to find some sort of criminal contempt sanction, that that would go very far at all. Eric, you mentioned there are documents that we still need to see. What are those missing documents that are so important for the public and when might we see them? I would say one element that we are missing that I am especially interested in is internal Justice Department correspondence that describes the decision-making behind who to charge and who not to charge.

6:52And I anticipate that those sorts of memos, those prosecution memos or decline to prosecute memos do exist, and we have not seen them. And that's something that I think a lot of people who are following the case would be very interested. We don't know when that might be, but presumably that could happen by the end of the year. All right. Very quick question, Eric. When there is a dispute over what is redacted, who decides? So theoretically, that should be the Justice Department and the Justice Department alone. And so in terms of oversight over that decision, you know, it's not clear to me what additional level of supervision might exist.

7:30All right. Eric Tucker is Justice Department reporter for the AP. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

7:43coming up next one of the world's best-selling whiskeys is pausing production the owner of jim beam says it's shutting off the spigot at its main plant in kentucky as barrels of bourbon pile up that story coming up after the break byo mint and simple syrup if you want to make a mint julep out of it

8:11Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from SelectQuote. For over 40 years, SelectQuote has been one of the most trusted brokers in insurance. Their mission is simple, to find you the right insurance policy for your unique needs. They shop, you save. In as little as 15 minutes, SelectQuote's licensed agents will compare policies from trusted, top-rated insurance companies to find you the best fit for your health, your lifestyle, and your budget. And they work for you for free. Get the right life insurance for you and save more than 50 % at selectquote.com slash anytime. That's 50 % off at selectquote.com slash anytime.

8:52In the great state of Kentucky, there are almost four barrels of bourbon for every person who calls the state home. That's a record ratio, and it's one reason why the owner of Jim Beam says it's suspending production all next year at its largest distillery. Beam's Japanese owner, the beverage company Suntory, said it's, quote, assessing production levels to best meet consumer demand, end quote. But American whiskey sales have been taking a hit from tariffs and because people are drinking less. Maybe you could say the industry is on the rocks. Sorry. Louisville-based bourbon historian and author Susan Riggler joined Scott Tong for a taste of the news.

9:36Several things are going on with consumer demand. One is, of course, people had stocked up on bourbon during the pandemic, and they had a pretty healthy supply of it themselves for quite a while. That's one part of it. Another part of it is that the Jim Beam brand itself, which of course is the largest selling bourbon in the world, is actually a pretty much everyday 80 proof bourbon. And while there has been a considerable slowdown in demand for whiskey in this country, premium brands, premium expressions are continuing to grow. So I think what's happening here is Beam is concentrating on their premium brands like Knob Creek and Booker's and Baker's and pulling back because they have a certainly very, very robust supply of what they've made of many of their other whiskeys.

10:30Yeah. And does the the tariffs from the president in the trade war have anything to do with this? You know, we maybe talk with you about how Canadians, right, unhappy with American financial economic sanctions, have responded. Many provinces deciding, you know what, we're not going to carry American whiskey bourbon. I think that has a very, very big effect, especially because as some consumer growth had slowed in this country, the big distillers, the legacy distillers were very much looking toward the overseas markets and especially South Asia. India has been showing a great interest in American bourbon.

11:12And now, of course, there are some pretty serious tariff barriers for them to importing a lot of bourbon. And, of course, this has a ripple effect throughout the Kentucky economy because you have farmers who grow the corn and our distilleries really love to use local corn. You have that kind of effect, too. So it's not just people who work at the distilleries, but it's all of those support services as well. Yeah. And, you know, in Kentucky, the Distillers Association reported a record amount of bourbon kind of sitting in warehouses across the state. That was in the fall. Tell me more about the conversation in Kentucky.

11:51Is there angst here across the industry? Well, I think probably the people who have the most angst are going to be the smaller producers. The big distillers, they know this is cyclic. They know that the industry has historically had its ups and downs, and they are certainly in it for the long term. You don't go into the whiskey-making business without knowing that you have to have a long-term plan and you're looking at the future. Let me ask you just about consumers and whether habits are changing. A recent Gallup poll found 54 % of Americans self-reported drinking at all. that number is going down.

12:39Are fewer Americans drinking the harder stuff in general? Well, again, I think the premium brands are still doing very well and people are drinking less, but they're kind of going for quality over quantity. There is some of that, I believe. There certainly has been a lot of reporting about how younger generations are not consuming as much alcohol and maybe turning to other recreational activities like, you know, cannabis or drinking different kinds of beverages like, you know, seltzers and that sort of thing. But part of that, I think, is that as people mature, I mean, for a while it was the baby boomers who turned away from whiskey and it's definitely the baby boomers who are keeping whiskey going now.

13:25So I think, Again, the distillers are in it for the long term. The big ones, the ones that can afford to wait this out. And I think there will be some, certainly some attrition in some areas. But in the meantime, the pain is certainly very real, again, for people like those who actually work in the distilleries and the support services like the farmers. And that's very real. And what about jobs right now? I mean, is there a sense that there are more jobs being created longer term in this industry? or has it seen, have some of these companies seen layoffs, shutdowns? Some of them certainly have.

14:03And, of course, it's pretty interesting that you have some that have been startups that have really just not made it or gone into receivership. And there have been cutbacks. Brown Foreman reduced their worldwide employees by 12 % back in January. Now, they own Jack Daniels and Woodford Reserve and Old Forrester. So those things are happening, and they're looking to consolidate various positions. Yeah. Susan Riggler is a bourbon historian, writer, and author based in Louisville in Kentucky. Susan, thanks for the time. You are very welcome, Scott. Thank you. The bourbon industry has gone through a lot of ups and downs in recent years, mostly ups in the big picture.

14:50That fact that there are almost four times as many bourbon barrels as there are people in Kentucky? That's more than double what it was just six years ago, when I did a story on bourbon for Here and Now while the show was visiting Louisville. If you want to know more about what's behind that boom, and what makes bourbon bourbon, check out that story. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. But coming up next, the federal government recently recognized the Lumbee tribe of North Carolina, A moment that brought tears of joy to people like Tribal Chairman John Lowry. Now our children and our grandchildren, our great-grandchildren, can come up here working and fighting and promoting other things for our people.

15:33And that's something I'm very proud of. But others wonder if the move has more to do with politics than anything else. Indira Lakshmanan has that story after the break.

15:47Thank you.

16:17They bring you news about people teaming up over shared values to protect the climate and environment. LOE spotlights fascinating new science and research and features big picture discussions about living authentically. Look for Living on Earth wherever you get your podcasts.

16:38Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken? A podcast from the Mehrotra Institute at Boston University. On the show, host Kurt Nickish asks the thorny questions necessary for this moment about the role business plays in society. Questions like, why are executives paid so much? Why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? And of course, is business broken? Follow Is Business Broken wherever you get your podcasts.

17:13For more than a century, the Lumbee tribe of North Carolina has pushed for federal recognition. Thanks to Congress, the tribe of nearly 60 ,000 people is now a federally recognized tribal nation. But it's a decision that is not without controversy. For more, let's bring in Graham Lee Brewer in Norman, Oklahoma. He covers indigenous communities and tribal nations for the Associated Press, and he's also a citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Welcome, Graham. Thanks for having me. So the Lumbee tribe first petitioned Congress for recognition more than 135 years ago, way back in 1888. They received only partial recognition in 1956.

17:50So what changed? Why did they get full recognition last week? Well, really, I think this comes down to the presidential campaign cycle. This is a topic that has been coming up at least since Obama's first run for president. and we really saw that kind of ramp up in this last cycle with both Kamala Harris and Donald Trump promising the Lumbee federal recognition if they were to win. So really what it came down to this time was politics. North Carolina is a very important swing state, especially in this last election, and you just saw this really heavy push from both candidates to make promises to the Lumbee, which, as you mentioned, is a very sizable voting block in Robeson County, North Carolina.

18:33Well, actually, I want to talk about that because the Lumbee tribe is located in southeastern North Carolina. As you pointed out, it's a key swing state. Are the president's strategists now counting on the Lumbee as a block of loyalists for him in this battleground state? And how much difference could their votes make? I certainly think that there are some expectations on the political side of this whole thing that the Lumbee will be in the future a Republican voting bloc, a reliable one. Whether that turns out to be the case, obviously we'll see. But you certainly saw a lot of robust support for President Trump on the campaign trial.

19:15I was there in Robeson County last year. the Democrats did the same thing. And it's been a pretty routine thing to happen in North Carolina, at least since 2008. All right. Well, not everyone in indigenous communities is happy about this. For some years, other tribes have questioned the Lumbee tribe's genealogy and their authenticity. What's the story behind that? Well, the Lumbee's claims, their historical claims have changed a little over the years. They've gone through calling themselves different names, a Croatan, and even at one point calling themselves the Cherokee Indians of Robeson County.

19:51Now, obviously, a lot of Lumbee historians and academics and even tribal leaders will tell you that these are names that they didn't choose for themselves. They were names that were given to them by the state or local governments. I just want to be clear, not all tribal nations that are federally recognized go through the Office of Federal Acknowledgement, which is a process where those genealogical and historical claims that you mentioned would be vetted by a group of experts in the Department of Interior. In fact, more tribes have gained federal recognition through legislation like the Lumbee did here.

20:23One of the very last tribes to do that, the Little Shell in 2019-2020, also got federally recognized through the NDAA, just as the Lumbee did this year. You're referring to the National Defense Authorization Act that resulted in their recognition last Wednesday. Tell me, what does your own reporting show about their legitimacy of their genealogy and their legitimacy as a tribe? Well, I think for a lot of tribal leaders who I've spoken to about this issue who are in opposition to the Lumbee gaining federal recognition, for them, I think the frustration was that the discussion moved from, is this a tribal nation with a documented history of interaction with the federal government, of acting as a sovereign and governing its own people?

21:08It moved from that discussion to, are the Lumbee Native American people. Their frustration came from the idea that they didn't believe that the Lumbee had sufficiently documented the history of their government. I see. But nobody's claiming that they're not actually an indigenous group of people. Nobody's claiming that they're not Native Americans. So there are certainly people who also take issue with the Lumbee's genealogical claims, what people they directly descend from. And as I mentioned, the way that the Lumbee have defined themselves historically, the names that they have called themselves historically has changed over time.

21:50And so that certainly adds to some of the confusion. I see. But again, it's really, for a lot of tribal leaders across the country, the real controversy was the actual existence of a government that had interactions with the United States and how those have been documented over time. Federal recognition for a tribe is more than symbolic, of course. It comes with federal resources and support. It allows the tribe more control over taxation and economic development, such as building a casino. Is that something they plan to do? Certainly, I think so. I mean, this is a huge moment for the Lumbee. You're talking about 60 ,000 people.

22:26They would become overnight one of the largest tribes in the country, and that's going to open them up to a wide variety of federal resources, whether that's government contracts and grants, but also the ability to access services. And as you mentioned, being able to take land into trust, create a reservation, and then thereby become part of the casino gaming industry. Casino gaming can lead to all sorts of new resources for tribal nations. It can build hospitals. It can build roads. It can fund teacher salaries and police departments within tribes. I think that they're definitely going to be looking at ways to bolster themselves economically and become major players in that federal system.

23:12That's Graham Lee Brewer. He's a reporter with the Associated Press who covers indigenous communities and tribal nations. Thank you, Graham. Thanks for having me.

23:28That's it for us today. Here and Now Any Time comes from NPR and WBUR Boston. Today's stories were produced by Lynn Mennegan, Thomas Tanyelian, and Kalyani Saxena. Today's editors were Mark Navin, Mikaela Rodriguez, and Kat Welch. Technical direction from Caleb Green and Matt Reed with help from Marcel Tamiano. Our theme music is by Mike Moschetto, Max Liebman, and me, Chris Bentley. Our digital producers are Allison Hagen and Grace Griffin. And the executive producer of Here and Now is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. We've got new episodes of Here and Now anytime every single weekday, as always, including this holiday week.

24:05So make sure you're following the show to get all that, whatever your plans are, Christmas and beyond. And we'll be back with you tomorrow.

24:28This message comes from WISE, the app for international people using money around the globe. You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart. Get WISE. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply.