Remembering Jesse Jackson

0:00Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software for technical computing and model-based design. MathWorks, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and engineering. Learn more at mathworks.com. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. Our flag is red, white, and blue, but our nation is rainbow. Red, yellow, brown, black, and white, we're all precious in God's sight.

0:36Jesse Jackson's lifelong fight for civil rights and economic justice. It's Tuesday, February 17th, and this is Here and Now, Anytime from NPR and WBR. I'm Chris Bentley.

0:58Today on the show, we remember the Reverend Jesse Jackson, the civil rights champion who fought for racial and economic equality, and a trailblazing candidate for president who changed American politics. Also, we'll listen back to Robin Young's 2021 conversation with actor Robert Duvall, who died Sunday at 95 years old after more than six decades on the big screen. I always believe I do my own horsemanship, my own singing, and my own dancing in a movie. Robert Duvall, in his own words, coming up in about 20 minutes. But first... We must leave racial battleground and come the economic common ground and moral higher ground.

1:42America, our time has come. The Reverend Jesse Jackson, led major civil rights campaigns in his 20s, became a protege of Martin Luther King Jr., and eventually one of the most influential political figures in America. Soon, we'll hear from one of his earliest allies in his fight against segregation. But we want to reflect first with Bishop William J. Barber II, second, president of Repairers of the Breach, a social justice nonprofit. He spoke to Scott Tong. You know, this morning when I got the call and I talked to his family, one of the things his wife said was a mighty lion has fallen. And he was indeed a lion for justice.

2:27He protected people and he brought a lot of people along. He knew that civil rights was bigger than just black. You know, that speech in 63 is one of them. But the speech a lot of people need to listen to today is 84 at the presidential convention. It's the kind of speech we need to hear today, the kind of agenda to take on this authoritarian now, because he said what we really need is a rainbow where we bring together black and white and brown and Asian and indigenous, all people together around our deepest moral values. And Jesse was able to do that. He built a political movement. people say he didn't win but he did in some ways seven million more folk in the party change the party rules push things into the agenda for poor and low wealth people that wouldn't have been there and really gave the kind of progressive agenda that we actually need today uh to push back against authoritarianism because he knew that politics needed to be more than about democrat versus republican but about right versus law and about lifting from the bottom Well, earlier on in his life, Jesse Jackson joined lunch counter sit-ins, marched in Montgomery, Selma, Alabama, founded Organizations for Social Justice.

3:39And then you mentioned him running for president. So let's listen to him speaking in 1984 at the Tendley Baptist Church in Philadelphia. It's time for a new course, a new coalition, a new leadership. Somebody got the rise above race, rise above sex, a new leadership, a choice, a chance. Don't cry about what you don't have. Use what you got. Jackson got more votes than any other black candidate at the time in 1988, came in second in the Democratic primary. But to reflect on what we just heard, what did you hear? Yeah, he got more votes than many white candidates. He won in South Carolina, Mississippi, came in second in Tennessee, won in Virginia, came second in North Carolina.

4:37What I hear is him saying, you know, this is right after Reaganism or during that time when Reagan was robbed. And he's giving a hope. Notice he's not just doing a list of grievances. He's giving people a vision, a vision of hope. If you listen to him deeper, he goes straight into policy. And that's what we need today, because just having grievances about Trump, what he does, we already know what he's going to do, what he has done. But politicians, they need to turn now to, if you get elected, what are you going to do? What's your hope? What's going to happen to the man who doesn't make a living wage or the woman who doesn't have health care or the child that needs more education?

5:12Jesse had a way of keeping hope alive, even when he criticized. He didn't even criticize people personally. He criticized their policy. But he didn't just stay on the grievances. He listed out, as he said there, a chance, not just crying about what you don't have, but what you can have and what you must fight for. And everywhere he went when I was with him, he would sometimes register more voters than he would take more time doing that than he would speaking because he understood how to build power. People have to be clear about their vision, clear about the moral implications. And then they must bring in those who have been pushed out in order to expand the possibilities of power in the party.

5:53Yeah. Well, taking us to the issues of today, the policy issues of today, you have called Jesse Jackson a living bridge between eras. Just briefly, tell us what you mean by that. Well, in some ways, like in the Bible, Samson was a bridge between Saul and David. Jesse Jackson was the best of both the civil rights of the 60s and the new politics post the civil rights movement, post the life of Dr. King. He took seriously what Dr. King said. The greatest fear of the greedy oligarchs in this nation would be for the masses of black people, brown and white, to join together and form a political alliance that could reshape the economic architecture of this country.

6:37He knew that we had to do race and economics. It's not either or, it's both and. And we miss him, but the way we honor him is pick up the baton where he dropped it and carried on, which is what we're going to try to do and have been trying to do through repairs to the breach and the moral fusion movement. That's Bishop William J. Barber, civil rights leader, professor at the Yale Divinity School. Bishop Barber, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Take care now. Goodbye.

7:15Coming up, we've got more reflections on the life and legacy of Jesse Jackson from someone who staged a sit-in with him more than 60 years ago in South Carolina after this short break.

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8:16On July 16th, 1960, eight black students walked into the whites-only public library in Greenville, South Carolina. One was Jesse Jackson. Another was Doris Wright. They became known as part of the Greenville Eight and made history with their fight to desegregate the public library in their hometown. Scott Tong caught up with Doris Wright to talk about it. I'm saddened today. I've known Jesse for, oh, maybe 70 years. Yeah. We went to the same elementary school. We went to the same High School, and so that's our history. We grew up in the segregated town of Greenville, South Carolina, but we made the best of it.

9:10Well, you made a whole lot of history. So let me ask you about the Greenville Eight. The two of you were part of these eight students challenging the segregated city library. Jesse Jackson and all of you conducted a sit-in, And I understand that day the police came in, your group left, and you were told to go back in as part of the sit-in. What happened that day? Well, that day Jesse was home. He was a year ahead of me in high school, and he was home for the summer, and he had a paper to do. And there were two libraries in Greenville. There was a white library and a colored library. and the colored library did not have reference books like who's who's in america and those and the only one daily newspaper which was the new york times so what he needed for to return back to uh school because he was at the university of urbana and illinois at the time so we were going up there trying to find um use the library so that he could get the information that he needed when he returned back to school.

10:22So they had a propensity in Greenville to shut the lights down. So when they shut the lights down, we left. And our youth advisor said, no, that's not why I sent you. So you go back. So we went back, and the rest was history. They arrested us. There were eight of us at that time. and I didn't realize that it would make that kind of impact because the city that was next to Greenville, which is Spartanburg, South Carolina, they had desegregated their library before we had. And, of course, the mayor said that we were not going to go through that, and the library was shut down, I think, for about a week or 10 days.

11:11And then when they reopened, they reopened it to everybody. What do you remember about Jesse Jackson's role in the Greenville Eight?

11:44really be served. Case in point, F.W. Woolworth had two lunch counters. And at that time, the white patrons sat in the front of the lunch counter and the colored patrons sat in the back behind the birds and bees and fish. So we didn't think that that was very sanitary. Wow. So we set out to look at unjust laws in Greenville. We knew that our parents could not protest because if they had, they would have lost their jobs. So it was left to the youth. The civil rights movement was carried on primarily by the youth. Yeah. And what was he like, the young Jesse Jackson? He was loved by all of his classmates.

12:34He was loved by the teachers. He played baseball, he played football, and he played basketball. I was a majorette, and he was a quarterback at the football team. At halftime, he made sure that we were positioned in where we were supposed to be. And most people don't know this, so I'll share with those that may be listening. Yes, please. Jesse had a nickname that we call Bo Diddley. Don't know where it came from. But when he burst onto the national scene, he was classic Jesse. He never forgot from whence he came. There was always that soft point that you saw with Jesse and that you felt. It wasn't always what he said.

13:22It was visceral. It's what you felt. And I'm going to miss him. I really am. Doris Wright. Didi Wright. made history along with her friend, Reverend Jesse Jackson, in 1960 as members of the Greenville Eight, who eventually desegregated the public library in their hometown, Greenville, South Carolina. Dee Dee Wright, thank you so much. Oh, you're more than welcome.

13:55Coming up, we're also remembering a legend of Hollywood today. the actor Robert Duvall. Robin Young spoke to him many times over the years, and we'll hear a bit of their conversation from a few years ago in just a minute.

14:17Robert Duvall's career spanned more than six decades and many characters on screen. He was nominated for an Oscar seven times, winning Best Actor in 1984 for his role in Tender Mercies. He died Sunday at his home in Virginia at the age of 95. In 2021, Robin Young spoke with Robert Duvall about some of his favorite roles. Is Robert Duvall the greatest American actor? He tops a lot of lists, and we want to remind ourselves why. Starting with a role in which he didn't say a word, close your eyes, you can probably see this moment when Scout sees Duvall's Boo Radley in To Kill a Mockingbird. Boo? Miss Jean Louise, Mr.

15:03Arthur Radley. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bomb for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. And if you just hold the letter, baby. I climb to the top. Besides the whiskey, I think we'll require a little respect. I'm Captain Augustus McCray. This is Captain Woodrow F. Carr. You may not have the privilege of serving under the meanest, toughest, screaming, and squadron commander in the Marine Corps. Me. Mr. Corleone is a man who insists on hearing bad news immediately. Robert Duvall as lawyer Tom Hagen in The Godfather, before that Bull Meacham in The Great Santini, cattle driver Gus McRae in Lonesome Dove, country singer Max Sledge in Tender Mercies, for which he won an Oscar, and Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore in Apocalypse Now.

15:59Robert Duvall turned 90 this year, and we thought, what a good time to just say hi. A warning, it's always a bit of a family reunion. He was married to my sister at one time. Bobby Duvall, hello. How you doing, Robin? How are you? It's good to hear your voice. Yeah. What do you think, Bobby, when you hear lists like this? It's nice to hear that some of the ones that are left out, especially the left out. Is there one that may be left out that you actually think was overlooked? Well, when I played Stalin, that was one of my favorite parts. It was very strange to be filming in the Kremlin, still with some of those leftover people that were probably pro-Stalin.

16:44You know, maybe the greatest review I ever got, I feel. Nikita Mikhail Kost's father was like Stalin's personal poet. And when he saw the movie, he said, I touched the soul of Stalin. So, Koba. No. Stalin. Stalin? My new name. Steel. Steel. But for you old friend to friends and comrades like you, I'm always Koba. To Stalin. To Lenin. Some people say Stalin didn't have a soul, but I think you mean in every character you want to find one. Yeah. The great American writer Larry McMurtry just passed, as you know, 84. He passed away recently. Yeah. He, of course, wrote Lonesome Dove. You starred in the television adaptation with Tommy Lee Jones.

17:40Yeah, that was probably my favorite part. And it was because of your sister that I went after it. And she was the one that told me to hone in on that part, not the other one. In Texas, it's like a religion. My good friend, Hank Whitman, who was the head of the Texas Rangers, made me an honorary Texan, an honorary Texas Ranger. And a woman came up that day and said, we watch Lonesome Dove once a year in our Texas family. And she said, I would not allow my daughter's fiance to marry into the family until he had seen Lonesome Dove. So that's pretty much a religious thing in the state of Texas, Lonesome Dove.

18:19My sister was your then wife, the wonderful Gail Youngs, read the book, Lonesome Dove, told you you have to do this. I read a book I like better than Dostoevsky. And she said, you have to, you know, so my agent, I said, if you can get him to switch parts, then fine, but not, otherwise I'm not interested. Why? I don't know. It's just something, you know, you connect with, You know, that's what it was, was a feeling, you know. I went south with Rodney Jenkins, the great American horseman. I always believe I do my own horsemanship, my own singing, and my own dancing in a movie. It's me that has to do that.

18:54Well, you worked with other great writers, Horton Foote, directors, Francis Ford Coppola and Apocalypse Now. Talk about Coppola. We asked listeners to send in questions for you. and I can't tell you how many wanted to know where did the line about napalm come from? That was Coppola. That was scripted. Yeah. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. It smells like victory. I asked Francis, I only asked you one time, I'd like to play that part. And when I got there, the part was overwritten with a guy who was like a cowboy with boots. And it was a caricature. It was first written as a character called Colonel Carnage.

19:35So I got with a guy who had been in Vietnam, and he told me how to shape it with the air cavalry. Because I had been in the service in the Army, and I knew what those special service officers were like. We went from there and formed that, and Coppola gave me the chance to play that part. We talked about roles that you obviously loved. By the way, do you just shake them off? You try not to live in the past, but you can't help with doing that some. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking of the apostle. Give it to me tonight, Lord God, Jehovah. If you won't give me back my wife, give me peace. Give it to me, give it to me, give it to me, give me peace.

20:14Give me peace. That was an interesting thing because I studied preachers all over America. And the greatest preacher I ever met was Isham Williams, an elderly black preacher from Hamilton, Virginia. I remember I was privileged to travel with you and, again, your then wife, Gail. We went to visit with Johnny and June Carter Cash, and there was a little chapel down the road from them where the pastor worked with snakes. Do you remember that? Yeah, yeah. Johnny was a religious man. Good, good, good person, Johnny Cash. I remember one day he got caught behind the fence with his big longhorn steer, and June went crazy because the thing looked like it was going to charge him, but it didn't, you know.

20:58Are you still a Christian scientist? Yes. Yeah. So why were these many fire and brimstone preachers so interesting to you? Well, it's like a truly American art form. And I sent a copy of the film to Marlon Brando, and he sent me back a note. It was wonderful. He accepted it. And then I also heard that Billy Graham accepted the film. So I got it from the secular, and I got it from the religious community both. and I have this letter on the wall from Brando. I like it more than my Oscar. What was it like to work with Marlon Brando? Were you and Al Pacino and others tiptoeing around him a little bit?

21:39Yeah, a little bit in the beginning. Jimmy Conn, he's one of a kind, Jimmy. Great guy. He'd crack a joke and it'd take Brando three seconds to get it. He was like the godfather of actors. Dustin Hoffman, me and Gene Hackman He used to go to Cromwell Drugstore a couple times a week in New York City. And if we mentioned Marlon once, we mentioned him 25 times. Why? Well, he was very innovative, the guy. You know, he was novel. And when I first saw him, I got like, not threatened, but I said, I don't understand what he's doing. He was so real, you know. And then we got to work with him. It was wonderful, you know, very special guy.

22:23I think you should tell your dad what everyone seems to know. I didn't tell Mama anything. I was about to come up and wake you just now and tell you. But you needed a drink first. Yeah. And now you've had your drink.

22:49They shot some of you in the causeway. He's dead.

23:00Is that it, Bobby, being real? I mean, what would you say? When do you know you're doing it right and well? Well, it kicks in. Things kick in. Like somebody said once, there's no right and wrong. There's only truthful and untruthful, so to speak. Yeah. I have some more questions for listeners, and one of them is going to be, who was the best teacher you ever had? I was thinking of Sanford Meisner. Meisner, yeah, he was good, but he dealt with the imaginary, but I also think you can drift from that and use anything you want to use. What do you mean he dealt with the imaginary? You know, it's as if this, and use the imaginary.

23:41But I believe you can use anything. You can go beyond that and use the personal anytime you want to use it. What would your advice be to a young actor starting out? Get with some kind of group. Don't be isolated individually, you know. Recently, on my birthday, my wife, she had all different people call in. And Dustin Hoffman, he said that I took my social life lightly, but my career more heavily. I am kept in touch with too many of those guys from The Godfather, De Niro and those guys. But that's got to feel good to be in that number. Yeah, but there will always be good actors. I feel that the work done now ensemble-wise is better than before.

24:26Really? It goes on and on and on and on. I always say, you know, come into the fold. Well, Bobby, it's such a pleasure to talk to you. Do you still get up in the morning and go mighty? everybody all my friends talk about mighty that started with my brother way back my older brother he liked michigan so he used to talk about mighty michigan's football team yeah well this was just mighty it's the day and we all felt we had to seize it with you thank you to see you thank you take care bye-bye bye-bye

25:06that's it for the show today here and now anytime comes from npr and wbur boston today's stories were produced by lynn mennigan jill ryan and amiko tamagawa our editors were todd bunt michael scotto and cat welch technical direction from andre peralta and matt reed our theme music is by mike nascetto max liebman and me chris bentley our digital producers are alison hagan and grace Griffin, and the executive producer of Here and Now is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with you tomorrow.