The future of marriage

0:00Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software for technical computing and model based design. MathWorks, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at MathWorks.com. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. We are having a modern marriage that comes from our choice and our self-interest, and it is rewarding to us. But there might come a time where it isn't, and everyone needs to make that decision for themselves. We're talking love, marriage, and chocolate on this Valentine's weekend.

0:47it's friday february 13th and this is here and now anytime from npr and wbr i'm chris bentley

0:57love is complicated whether you're single seeking or ensconced in marriage you can always be surprised by what the heart wants. So today we're getting a relationship coach's take on the future of long-term relationships. And a little later, we'll discuss something just about universally desired. Chocolate. You use chocolate chips, you make a very simple dough, you make these cookies, and just when they come out of the oven and they're still warm and a little soft, you sprinkle them with coarse sea salt. Kathy Gunst's chocolate recipe is coming up in about 15 minutes. But first, Americans are getting married later in life than they used to.

1:43The national marriage rate has declined by 54 % in the last century and is currently hovering near an all-time low, according to federal data. The Pew Research Center found a few years ago that the share of Americans who turned 40 without ever having been married, has quadrupled since 1980 to about one in four. It's a topic that relationship coach Allison Raskin has been fascinated by for years. She's the author of I Do, I Think, Conversations About Modern Marriage. She and her husband, John Blakeslee, co-host the podcast Starter Marriage, and they don't see those falling marriage rates as a bad thing, necessarily.

2:28They talked about what makes a good marriage and how the institution is changing in this conversation with Indira Lakshmanan. So Allison, you're a millennial, a generation that's putting off marriage for their careers, shifting norms, delayed childbearing. Your parents, on the other hand, were baby boomers, the generation with the highest divorce rate. And yet your parents were an exception. They had what you've sort of described as a fairy tale marriage that meant you dreamed of getting married from a young age. Tell us more. So I actually, I would describe it as two best friends who really enjoyed each other.

3:04And so that was something I always really wanted for myself to the point where it was like unhealthy how obsessed I was with finding a husband, which is something I explored in my other book, Overthinking About You. But basically the genesis of the podcast and of the book I do, I think was that I had a broken engagement in 2020 and I had gotten so close to finally getting married and finally getting across this like finish line I had in my head only to realize that you're never safe, right? You can be married for 20 years and that relationship can end and you can be shocked that your partner walked out on you.

3:41So I decided that I needed to kind of reimagine my relationship towards marriage. And is it something I still wanted, even though there's such a risk and there's a huge chance it might not work out. And that was sort of the origin story of examining modern marriage and deep diving into what it means today. And, you know, my takeaway was that the possibilities of modern marriage are far more exciting than what standard marriage or old school marriage used to be. Well, let's talk about that because you have a degree in psychology. You have looked into the roots of marriage. And historically, my understanding is that marriage started out as something we did to guarantee financial security.

4:22It was a way that upper class and noble families preserved wealth and patrilineage or matrilineage. So those economic reasons that societies once had for getting married, have those disappeared in the last half century? Is that what you attribute the changes to? They definitely have not disappeared. There's still a lot of benefits financially in ways of getting married. I mean, you're having shared resources. You have a dual income in a lot of couples. But what has shifted is that that's no longer your only path towards financial security, especially for women. What I work with on with my clients and sort of with my audience is having people figure out what it is that they want, rather than just falling into any relationship because you feel like you have to quote unquote settle.

5:15Well, I want to dig into that a little bit because you said that from when you were a little girl, you dreamed of being married and you dreamed of the wedding. And of course it was crushing when your first engagement broke off. How were you able to separate the notion of your identity being dependent on being married? You were incredibly lucky to then find John and find this amazing partner and bounce back and ending up getting your dream anyway. But how are you able to separate for yourself and your clients, the sort of feeling that one is good enough, whether or not one has found that partner?

5:52It's a tough journey, you know, and I was very lucky that I had actually gotten pretty far along on that journey before my broken engagement, which allowed me to kind of bounce back much faster. John and I met what, three, three months, afterwards. Didn't you cry on your first date, Allison? I heard that on your podcast. Talk about that, John. Did that scare you off? It really didn't. I had previously been in relationships that had gone on for years that I thought might end in a marriage that had ended. And I remember the feeling of entering a new relationship shortly thereafter and feeling like I wasn't allowed to talk about this other person because that would, you know, it would give the sense that you were still hung up on them or something like that when you're still processing this grief, but you're trying to pretend like it doesn't matter to you anymore.

6:47And so it was actually really important to me if I wanted to get to know Allison was to understand what had happened and how she felt about it. And personally, I guess I'm just the type of guy that I just like didn't feel threatened about it ever. At all. Like at all. I was like, well, he's gone. What do I care? And so I actually, I wanted her to talk about it because it was insight into who she was in this like hard time in her life. And if we were going to be together a long time, we're certainly going to have plenty of those moments. Right. I think getting back to your question, it's so much of your ability to, to have good relationships with other people comes back to your relationship with yourself.

7:29So if you really like yourself, If you, you know, care about yourself and are kind to yourself, then other people's acceptance or rejection of you can still be painful or exciting, but it doesn't rattle you to the same degree because you always have that baseline of like, I enjoy who I am. And so the real work, I believe, begins with having a kinder internal world. And then from there, you know, you do the work of being in a relationship with another person, right? I don't think that you can do all of this work on your own, right? This idea of like, I have to just like, I have to fix me or get me perfect before I find a partner.

8:13I don't believe in that. There are things that need to be worked out in relationship. But as long as you have a baseline of liking yourself, being kind to yourself, then I think that you can navigate the dating world in a less dangerous way where the stakes are not as high, right? Because if this person accepts you, great. But if they reject you, your whole world doesn't fall apart in the same way that it might when you're struggling with your self-esteem.

8:44Thank you.

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10:01I can imagine a lot of your clients who are millennials or Gen Z or your listeners, your audience, thinking, why do I need to get married? Tell me why I should even be listening to this podcast. I can just live with my special person or date a whole bunch of people. Like, why are you sitting here telling me that marriage is an important thing in my life? Oh, well, we are not telling people to get married. The premise of the show is absolutely not that like marriage is for everyone. And the reality is, is there's no reason for you to get married if marriage isn't appealing to you. And if I can just jump in here real quick, I mean, the name of the show is Starter Marriage, which like is a tongue in cheek way of us saying that, like, this might not be forever between us.

10:50We certainly hope it is and that our starter marriage is our forever marriage, but that being married is a daily activity of us coming back together and choosing each other because it works for the two of us, not because we are bound forever in some old custom or institution and that we are totally chained to it. No, this is we are having a modern marriage that comes from our choice and our self-interest, and it is rewarding to us. But there might come a time where it isn't. And everyone needs to make that decision for themselves. This report just came out from the Heritage Foundation, the conservative think tank in Washington that's strongly aligned with the Trump administration and was behind Project 2025.

11:35And they've put out a new report called Saving America by Saving the Family. and their whole goal is to boost marriage rates and boost bigger families. And they've talked about all sorts of perks that should be given by the government to incentivize people to have more kids, massive tax credits for families, things like this. What is your thought about the government trying to entice people or give rewards to people who do get married and stay married and have big families? Is that the role of government? It's been the role of government. Government is historically very pro-marriage, but not for good reason.

12:15I think it kind of ties back to that individualism that America loves to beat a drum about. And it's this idea that like, oh, you and your partner can get married and build this American dream for yourself rather than like, hey, I am not making a livable wage. I, you know, like I need more social safety nets from this government that is actually incredibly rich. And so this idea that if you just couple up, then you can make this, you know, you can afford to have this family. You can afford to live this American dream. It's a it's a falsity. And I, you know, obviously they're talking about adding incentives here.

12:54Right. But they're not going to be enough. It's never there is a real issue in this country with affordability. And I think that prioritizing married people and people that are married with children over the rest of society is just, you know, has ties to Christian nationalism. That isn't my forte and isn't, I think, a healthy or appropriate response for a country that's supposed to be separated by church and state. And I think what instead of focusing on certain elements of the population and rewarding them, we need to be providing more support for the entire population. And then that population can decide, do I want to get married?

13:35Do I want to have children? So it sounds like you would coach people to either get married or stay single, to have kids or not, based on what's right for them, not on government policies. Well, you've given us a lot to think about no matter our stage in life. Alison Raskin is a relationship coach and author. Together with her husband, John Blakeslee, she hosts the Starter Marriage Podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having us. Thank you.

14:06While you don't need a partner, or even a date, to get something out of our next segment, coming up, here and now resident chef Kathy Gunst shares recipes with Indira and Robin Young for chocolate coconut cookies, chocolate pie, and a chocolate Bundt cake after this short break.

14:34Valentine's Day is Saturday. Indira, new host sitting next to me, has had to pass various host tests. Here's one, chocolate. Oh, my goodness. I mean, hardcore chocoholic in the house for me, every day is a reason to enjoy chocolate. But I don't mind having an extra excuse with Valentine's, and hopefully my husband is listening. Okay, she's in. And so is here now resident chef Kathy Gunst here with recipes. Thanks to producer Emiko Tamagawa. And Dura, we're going to have some to taste. Kathy, hi. I know. Hi there. Hi. I love your chocolate enthusiasm already. Well, Kathy, I have to ask. Valentine's Day treats often have so many fancy flourishes.

15:15Are these recipes complicated? Not at all. I mean, you know, like it's a regular old week, but the Valentine's Day is this weekend. And so I kept it simple but super chocolatey. Oh, they're so great because we have some in front of us because of Emiko. Thank you. This is the chocolate coconut cookie with sea salt. Yeah. It is so good. Crisp, you know, kind of crispish on the outside, soft in the inside. So tell us more. That's exactly what you're looking for. Good job, Emiko. It's filled with toasted coconut. You just get unsweetened coconut toasted until it just starts to turn a little bit golden.

15:50You use chocolate chips. You make a very simple dough. You make these cookies. And just when they come out of the oven and they're still warm and a little soft, you sprinkle them with coarse sea salt. And what the salt does is it just brings out the nuance of the chocolate in a way that's really different without the salt. And I am just a big fan of these cookies. Kathy, I have to say, we've been doing this so long. I remember when you started using sea salt on things like cookies. We go way back. It's taken. And Emiko didn't use chips. She used blocks of chocolate. They are so good. You can do that as well.

16:28I am just crunching into this and enjoying it so much, Kathy. The combination of coconut and chocolate is fantastic. But I have to say my all-time favorite flavor combo is chocolate and orange. And you have a recipe for a chocolate chocolate sour cream bundt cake with chocolate orange glaze. This kind of reminds me of those foil-wrapped chocolate orange treats that you get at Christmas. Is it really not complicated? No, not at all. And it's not like that. I think you've offended her. Oh, I love those. Don't be offended. I love them. Okay, good. You'll love this. This is a bundt cake. So you need a bundt pan or you can use a tube pan.

17:09And it uses chocolate in two forms. It uses unsweetened cocoa powder and then chocolate chips or what's also called chocolate discs, which can be found in fancy food shops. They melt really beautifully. A little bit more expensive, but what a flavor of chocolate. And this cake also uses sour cream, and it's super simple. You make the cake. You sift the cocoa on, put it in the oven, and while it's baking, the glaze is so easy. It's literally heating up cream, putting some grated orange zest into the cream so it infuses the cream. And then you melt the chocolate chips in. And once the cake comes out of the pan and it's cooled, you drizzle this chocolate orange glaze on top.

17:54And this cake is incredibly light, almost ethereal. It is very appealing. We ate it in less than 24 hours, two of us. So there you have it. It doesn't sound like it could be light, you know. That sounds great. I know. It's shockingly light. And the longer it sits, if you make it ahead of time, the more fudge-like it becomes. So try to bake it the day you serve it, like a cold winter Saturday Valentine's Day. Okay. Look, I'm sorry. I hear you chewing now. I'm plowing through these cookies. I am not – I don't know that I'm on, you know, in the camp of fruit and chocolate together, but chocolate and maple.

18:34You have a maple chocolate pudding pie. Yes. So this, okay, I know I'm going to shock you because I'm always pushing to make everything from scratch. But for this pie, I bought, I bought a graham cracker crust. You know, you get them in the grocery store. They're simple and easy. I give you instructions if you want to make your own cookie crust. And then you make a very easy chocolate pudding with milk, some sugar, egg yolks, maple syrup, cornstarch, and good quality chocolate chips. You chill it. It doesn't bake. It goes into the refrigerator for a few hours or overnight. And then you top it with whipped cream with maple syrup.

19:13So what you're doing is you're really highlighting the maple syrup flavor because it's in the filling as well as the maple cream topping. And then if you want to get fancy, you can shave a chocolate bar on top. It looks super fancy. All you need is a grater. Okay. That sounds good. But Kathy, all right, what about for those of us who may not have the time or energy to bake this year for Valentine's? Do you have any suggestions for buying chocolate? Oh, do I ever. Ragged Coast Chocolates in Westbrook, Maine, makes spectacular chocolates using all ingredients from local Maine farms. There is a Massachusetts company called Good Now Chocolates.

19:54It's won lots of awards. They source it in Latin America. Ena Chocolate Enna Chocolate in Exeter, New Hampshire There's a whole list online I love to buy chocolate I think what you're saying too is look around wherever you are There are local chocolate makers Batch chocolate makers Find them Chocolate treats, Here and Now resident chef Kathy Guns Will have it all at hereandnow.org Kathy, happy Valentine's Day Thank you, or as my two-year-old granddaughter says Happy Love Day Aww Exactly Exactly.

20:29Hope Friday the 13th doesn't bring any bad luck to anyone this Valentine's weekend. Enjoy those recipes by yourself or with a special someone. Roses are red, violets are blue. Follow this podcast because we love you. Here and Now Anytime comes from NPR and WBUR Boston. Today's stories were produced by Ashley Locke and Amiko Tamagawa Our editors were Todd Muntz, Michael Scotto, Mihaela Rodriguez, and Kat Welch Technical direction from Andre Peralta and Matt Reed Our theme music is by Mike Moschetto, Max Liebman, and me, Chris Bentley Our digital producers are Allison Hagen and Grace Griffin And here and now's executive producer is Alan Price Thanks for listening.

21:13Have a great weekend. We'll be back with you on Monday

21:22Thank you.