In short
The episode is a nature/conservation roundup focused on how humans interact with animals and how conservation can reverse declines. It opens with author Mark Kurlansky’s fishing memoir/book To Catch a Fish, where he argues fish are smart and humans struggle to “keep the line taut,” and he questions whether fish feel pain. He links cod decline to lost food webs and habitat changes (e.g., dams affecting salmon spawning). Next, Scott Wiedensahl discusses his book The Return of the Oyster Catcher, Saving Birds to Save the Planet: conservation can work by boosting nest productivity (oyster catchers up ~45% since 2008), and rewilding by letting land revert (UK Nepp Wildland nightingales up; European bison restoring habitat mosaics in Romania). The final segment spotlights Goldman Prize winner Yororo Tanshi: rediscovery of the short-tailed round-leaf bat in Nigeria helped spark West African bat conservation. Key claims include bat stigma, wildfire-driven habitat loss, and community fire-timing changes to prevent out-of-control burns.
Guests
Mark Kurlansky (author; fishing essays; wrote Cod and Salt); Scott Wiedensahl (ornithologist; author); Yororo Tanshi (wildlife researcher; Goldman Prize winner; works with husband Beneth Obite).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroduction to Here and Now Anytime
0:17 to 0:56
Introduction to the podcast and today's topics on conservation and fishing.
“If you get a lot of slack on the line, then they can just bolt in the other direction and snap the line.”
Mark Kurlansky on Fishing
0:56 to 1:40
Mark Kurlansky shares his lifelong passion for fishing and its challenges.
“Spring is in full swing, and it got me thinking about some lovely conversations we've had on the show lately about the outdoors and animals.”
The Thrill of Fishing
1:40 to 1:51
Exploring the thrill and challenges of catching fish.
Fishing Insights and Experiences
1:51 to 4:28
Kurlansky delves into the nuances of fishing and the intelligence of fish.
“using nightcrawlers to bait bluegills, perch, bass, and the occasional northern pike in lakes around the Adirondacks.”
Ethics of Fishing
4:28 to 6:42
Discussion on the ethics of fishing and the perception of pain in fish.
“Yeah, and I think Steinbeck is being unfair to fish.”
Cooking and Enjoying Fish
6:42 to 8:27
Kurlansky talks about his favorite ways to prepare and enjoy fish.
“If they were really sensitive to pain, I don't think they could fight the way they do.”
Environmental Challenges in Fishing
8:27 to 10:31
The impact of commercial fishing on the environment and fish populations.
“Sprinkle a little salt on the fillet and throw it on a charcoal grill.”
Kurlansky's Fishing Favorites
10:31 to 11:51
Kurlansky shares his favorite fishing locations and experiences.
“What do you think the prospects are for cod and all the other fish out there?”
Bird Conservation Efforts
13:20 to 14:00
Introduction to conservation efforts for bird species making a comeback.
“This message comes from Allianz Travel Insurance.”
Bird Population Trends and Recovery Stories
14:31 to 17:08
Discover the alarming decline in bird populations and inspiring recovery stories.
“Billions of birds, gone, everywhere from backyards to national parks.”
Show all 16 chapters
The Importance of Vultures in Ecosystems
17:08 to 19:48
Explore the ecological significance of vultures and challenges in conservation.
“They're nowhere near as cute as like a puffin or even like an oyster catcher.”
Rewilding and Its Impact on Bird Populations
19:48 to 21:07
Learn about rewilding efforts in the UK and their effects on bird species.
“It's kind of like feathered jazz musicians.”
The Role of Birds in Environmental Health
21:07 to 22:08
Understand how saving bird species can contribute to overall planetary health.
“Well, you say pretty clearly in this book that saving birds can save the planet.”
Conservation of Rare Bats in Nigeria
22:08 to 23:14
Hear about the rediscovery of the short-tailed round-leaf bat and conservation efforts.
“Scott Wiedensahl is the author of The Return of the Oyster Catcher, Saving Birds to Save the Planet.”
Protecting Bats Through Habitat Conservation
28:00 to 29:55
Learn how habitat conservation efforts are crucial for protecting bat populations.
“So when you approach this bat, if you were, you know, looking for it in the forests, or at least in the cave especially, it doesn't fly away quickly.”
The Impact of Conservation on Local Communities
29:55 to 30:22
Discover how bat conservation initiatives are benefiting local communities as well.
“No, you are protecting your natural habitat.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Iroro Tanshi:Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com. WBUR Podcasts, Boston.
0:23Scott Weidensaul:If you get a lot of slack on the line, then they can just bolt in the other direction and snap the line. So you have to keep the line taut, which is very hard to do when they're swimming towards you. You're just desperately trying to reel it in.
0:37Iroro Tanshi:Author Mark Kurlansky has been fishing for more than half a century. And yet, he says he still gets outsmarted by fish all the time.
0:56Iroro Tanshi:It's Friday, May 8th, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR. I'm Chris Bentley.
1:05Iroro Tanshi:Spring is in full swing, and it got me thinking about some lovely conversations we've had on the show lately about the outdoors and animals. So today on the show, we're going to hear about bringing birds back from the brink of extinction.
1:19Scott Weidensaul:Might it be impossible to really bring back birds? Maybe. But the only way we know it's impossible is if we don't try.
1:26Iroro Tanshi:Also, a conversation with wildlife scientist Irodo Tanshi, one of the winners of this year's Goldman Prize, sometimes called the Green Nobel, about scouring the caves of West Africa to protect rare species of bats. It's a cute fluff ball that just becomes this beautiful hand-winged animal that flies around. But first, do you fish? I'm not much of a fisherman myself anymore, but I did grow up fishing, mostly in upstate New York, using nightcrawlers to bait bluegills, perch, bass, and the occasional northern pike in lakes around the Adirondacks. This is around the time of year when lakes in the northern U.S.
2:07Iroro Tanshi:are getting warm enough and fishing seasons start up officially. It's a really thrilling moment when after minutes, maybe even hours if you're unlucky, you feel that uncanny tug of a surprisingly strong little animal challenging you on the other end of the fishing line. That thrill is one reason that people fish, but it does not fully explain the hold that fishing has on people who do it. So what does? Mark Kurlansky has been fishing for as long as he can remember, and writing about it almost as long. His new book is called To Catch a Fish, Essays on the Joy, Frustration, Curiosity, and Allure of Fishing.
2:46Iroro Tanshi:He tells Peter O'Dowd, despite his decades exploring the interactions of humans and the natural world through books like Cod and Salt, there's a deceptively simple question he still struggles to answer. Why does he fish?
3:02Scott Weidensaul:Well, you know, that's one of those questions I keep asking myself. It's like, why do I write? It's just something that I've always had an impulse to do. Since I was a small child, you know, I'd look out on a lake or a river or a stretch of ocean, and I wonder what's going on underneath there. What lives there, and what do they feed on, and how can I catch it? It's my way of being involved with nature. Yeah.
3:31Iroro Tanshi:So I see that you've been a commercial fisherman at one point in your life. You've also just fished for fun all around the world. For someone who doesn't fish, explain what you're feeling when you've got one on the line.
3:45Scott Weidensaul:Well, when you get a fish on the line, the first thing that hits you is how incredibly strong this small creature is pulling on your arm. You've got a wild animal on your line. It's exciting. It wouldn't be exciting if it were easy. You know, there's a big difference between sports fishing and commercial fishing. A sportsman tries to make it a difficult challenge. A commercial fisherman tries to make it as easy as possible.
4:15Iroro Tanshi:I'm interested in this part of the story. You say it's not easy, but you also quote the novelist John Steinbeck, who said that anyone who pits his intelligence against a fish and loses has it coming. You know, in my experience, you're right. Fishing is not easy at all.
4:31Scott Weidensaul:Yeah, and I think Steinbeck is being unfair to fish. Fish are quite smart and quite agile, and they can outsmart you. I mean, maybe I'm dumb. They outsmart me all the time. Do you think it's a fair fight between fish and human? Well, we try to make it a fair fight. if you're fly fishing, for example, you do everything you can to make it a fair fight.
4:59Iroro Tanshi:There's advice in this book for fish to avoid getting caught. And I particularly like number nine. It says, if you're hooked, swim toward the angler as fast as you can, instead of swimming away, it'll discombobulate him. Talk about that. How do you get in the mind of an animal that's just so different from us humans.
5:18Scott Weidensaul:Yeah, I mean, you have to look at the lay of the land, the water, what the fish likes to do in a river. A fish likes to find a nice, comfortable spot by some fast-moving water so the food will just be on a conveyor belt drifting past them. They're not dumb, you know. That experience of the fish swimming towards you instead of away from you and you're fighting It's happened to me many times that if you get a lot of slack on the line, then they can just bolt in the other direction and snap the line. So you have to keep the line taut, which is very hard to do when they're swimming towards you. You're just desperately trying to reel it in.
6:00Scott Weidensaul:It's almost like that fish knows what to do. That fish has your number, you know.
6:05Iroro Tanshi:Many people are probably familiar with your book, Cod, about the history of that fish in the North Atlantic. I'm curious, you've spent so much time around these animals throughout the course of your life, written about them so much. What's your opinion on whether a fish can feel pain?
6:20Scott Weidensaul:Ah, that is a difficult question. I don't know if a fish can feel pain. We can't really say. And what is pain and how is pain perceived in a fish? They do have some nerve endings. They have some nerves in their mouth area. It's quite possible that they do, but, you know, it's also possible that they don't. If they were really sensitive to pain, I don't think they could fight the way they do.
6:46Iroro Tanshi:Well, you know, I ask because you have an entire essay that tries to grapple with this question of whether fishing is cruel. And I'm paraphrasing here, but you say something to the effect of you just have to kind of, if you want to do this, you have to get used to the fact that humans are predators.
7:00Scott Weidensaul:Yes. Jimmy Carter said that. Jimmy Carter was an avid fisherman. And he said, you know, if you just can't live with the idea of yourself as a predator, you just shouldn't be doing it.
7:12Iroro Tanshi:I think there's something about pulling the fish out of the water. And I'm not some sort of purist about killing animals. I mean, I eat meat. But I have a hard time thinking about killing it, you know?
7:25Scott Weidensaul:Well, you know, why is it that I have a hard time killing animals? I went deer hunting once in my life. I killed a deer and I felt terrible and I never did it again. And yet I can kill fish all the time. I can't really explain that. What do you think that is? I have a theory that biologically the closer animals are to us, the more we care about them. You see that people are much more interested in protecting marine mammals than they are in protecting fish. Because we're mammals.
8:01Iroro Tanshi:if you're going to kill the fish i guess you should probably eat it i noticed uh in cod and also in this book uh you write about different ways to serve a fish after you've caught it
8:12Scott Weidensaul:how do you like it best well i give some recipes in the book and one basque recipe for seabrim is one of my favorite recipes for fish but you know i think my number one favorite recipe is when you You catch a wild salmon and you fillet it. Sprinkle a little salt on the fillet and throw it on a charcoal grill. Man, that's as good as it gets.
8:36Iroro Tanshi:That's fresh. Yep. I want to give credit to your fellow angler, Bree Dostey. She illustrated this book. I mean, that's just one of the big allures to this work. It's just got gorgeous images in it. Beautiful work, isn't it? Yeah, right. I mean, isn't that part of the story? Because visually, fish are fascinating animals. and you're always sort of wondering, I think, when you've got one on the line, what's this thing going to look like when I pull it from the water?
9:02Scott Weidensaul:Well, that's one of the extraordinary experiences because they don't look like anything all that special when they're in the water. And suddenly, when you pull them out of the water, it's like somebody threw on a light. You know, if you take a fish like a rainbow trout, you know, it's sort of this dark green brown back. And then when you haul it out of the water, this rainbow just suddenly glows, and it's spectacular.
9:30Iroro Tanshi:There are, as beautiful as they are, there's a lot of problems right now with fisheries, with oceans, with freshwater ecosystems, lakes and rivers. As you know, commercial fishing is really tough on the environment. Do you think fishing can be part of the solution for some of the crises that are facing this planet?
9:48Scott Weidensaul:Yeah, it's very troubling. I mean, the oceans, you know, the Atlantic that I grew up on has completely changed in the past 50 years. And 50 years from now, it's going to be totally different than it is now. And I can say that pretty much with a certainty, but what I can't say is what it will be like. We don't know, but, you know, as Darwin pointed out, every species interacts with other species. And, I mean, why aren't cod coming back since we've so severely cut down on fishing them? They aren't coming back because the things they eat are disappearing. They took down some dams in the Penobscot so that the salmon would come back, and they spawn, and they go out to sea, and they don't come back.
10:30Scott Weidensaul:And what's happening is that the North Atlantic has lost its capacity for feeding large fish. That's really scary.
10:40Iroro Tanshi:What do you think the prospects are for cod and all the other fish out there?
10:44Scott Weidensaul:Well, you know, I don't know. It's so hard to predict. You know, part of it is, are we going to really deal with climate change? We aren't doing right now. The U.S. right now is becoming a kind of an environmental terror. I think we have the capacity to do something about this. The question is if we have the will.
11:06Iroro Tanshi:Before I let you go, dare I ask, now this may be a question that makes a fisherman uncomfortable, but dare I ask your favorite place to fish? Well, I could name a few.
11:17Scott Weidensaul:I can't name one place. I love fishing in Idaho, the Big Wood or the Salmon River. I love fishing in Alaska. Vermont's pretty good. You know, surf casting for blues or stripers, which is what I grew up doing, is a pretty great experience.
11:35Iroro Tanshi:I guess I could say at this point in the interview that I'm not a fisherman. I love the outdoors. I love lakes. I love rivers. I couldn't put this book down. It's beautiful. It's called To Catch a Fish, Essays on the Joy, Frustration, Curiosity, and Allure of Fishing. Mark Kurlansky, thanks so much for speaking with us. Appreciate it.
11:53Scott Weidensaul:My pleasure. Nice talking to you.
12:03Iroro Tanshi:Mark Kurlansky was just talking about fish struggling to adapt to the rapid environmental change that humans have subjected them to. Well, it's a similar story for birds, but not all hope is lost. We'll tell you why after a short break.
12:39Iroro Tanshi:University. On the show, host Kurt Nickish asks the thorny questions necessary for this moment about the role business plays in society. Questions like, why are executives paid so much? Why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? And of course, is business broken? Follow Is Business Broken wherever you get your podcasts.
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13:47Iroro Tanshi:Luckily, trip interruption benefits can help cover the extra costs of heading home early, saving you money while you save the day. Learn more at AllianzTravelInsurance.com. This message comes from the Arbor Day Foundation. For more than half a century, the Arbor Day Foundation and its global network of more than a million inspired individuals, businesses, and community leaders have united behind the power of trees to help solve some of the planet's most pressing problems. From Michigan to Madagascar, the Arbor Day Foundation is planting trees at the speed of a changing world in communities and forests across the globe.
Read the full transcript
14:24Iroro Tanshi:See how you can do your part at arborday.org slash NPR. Since 1970, North America has lost more than a quarter of its bird population. Billions of birds, gone, everywhere from backyards to national parks. But some species are making a comeback. Raptors, for example, like eagles and falcons, have seen their numbers grow by more than 200 % since crashing a few decades ago. In a new book, ornithologist Scott Wiedensahl follows the people working to bring back some of the most threatened species on the planet. He traveled from Ukraine to Colorado and many places in between, writing about bird species that are recovering.
15:07Iroro Tanshi:His book is called The Return of the Oyster Catcher, and its namesake is one of those success stories. They're increasingly common on Atlantic shores, rearing their blackheads and fiery eyes, chittering away as they sift for oysters with their long, bright orange bills.
15:29Iroro Tanshi:That sound is from the Cornell Lab of Ornithology, by the way, a free and public treasure trove of sound and data about birds. Scott Wiedensahl told Peter O'Dowd the oyster catcher's comeback is a conservation success story.
15:43Scott Weidensaul:The scientists that were working on oyster catcher recovery realized if they could increase the productivity of each nest by an average of half a chick per nest, per pair per year, they could turn what had been this really steep decline in oyster catchers into an equally steep recovery. And that's exactly what they did starting in about 2008. And in the year since then, the oyster catcher population, which had been falling like 10 or 15 percent a decade, reversed. And we've seen about a 45 percent increase since 2008. There's now about 15 ,000 oyster catchers up and down the Atlantic coast. They've recolonized way up into New England.
16:20Scott Weidensaul:I'm in New Hampshire. They're now relatively common along the coast of Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, places where they hadn't been seen in some cases for the better part of a century.
16:30Iroro Tanshi:You write a lot about birds of prey, raptors and eagles, even vultures. I didn't realize how intensely people around the world have hunted those animals, many to the brink of extinction. What problem do people have with raptors and eagles and vultures?
16:46Scott Weidensaul:Competition. You know, they were seen as competition for food. They were seen as competition for game. You know, they were shot by the thousands, by the tens of thousands over the years. I mean, for a while, there was actually a bounty on bald eagles in Alaska because they were seen as a competitor for salmon. We've come a long way since then.
17:05Iroro Tanshi:You do write a lot about vultures. I keep coming back to that because I find it so interesting that you – the challenge, I think, is how do you get people to care about a vulture? They're nowhere near as cute as like a puffin or even like an oyster catcher. So you conservationists, you have to like turn public opinion back in favor of an animal that a lot of people see as a nuisance or as a threat or as competition as you describe. Right.
17:31Scott Weidensaul:Although we know in places like South Asia where vulture populations crash by more than 98 % because people were using an analgesic on their livestock that's incredibly toxic. Once those vulture populations collapsed, there were serious health problems for humans. The number of feral dogs went up. The number of rabies cases went up dramatically. Conservation organizations do not put vultures out there as the face of their fundraising campaign. But scavenging birds like vultures are among the most endangered groups of birds in the world.
18:04Iroro Tanshi:We should talk about rewilding. You have a stirring example of rewilding from the United Kingdom. And I want you to tell us what that is. But first, I want to play some more sound. This is the call of a nightingale, again, from the Cornell Lab.
18:23Iroro Tanshi:So there's this sanctuary in the UK. It's known as the Nepp Wildland, where the nightingale has returned. And you write about people coming to this place. They're hearing this sound again after years, and they're weeping. Why do you think that's such a powerful experience for people? Well, because the nightingale is just deeply embedded in the English consciousness.
18:44Scott Weidensaul:When you talk to somebody from the UK, particularly somebody of a certain age that had experience with nightingales as a young person, it's just what makes England England in some respects, especially in the outdoors. And they're gone. I mean, nightingales, their populations have declined by like 98 % in the last 40 or 50 years. And so – How did they get them back? Well, at NEP, they just simply let the land go. They let it start to revert to thorn scrub, hawthorn and blackthorn, which is exactly the habitat that these birds need. And, you know, it's the old, if you built it, they will come. And so their numbers have been increasing rapidly at NEP.
19:26Scott Weidensaul:I had the opportunity to go out on a nightingale safari one evening, and there were four or five of these birds singing in the dark around us. And even though I'm not English and I don't have that emotional connection to these birds, it's such a beautiful song. They're just sort of these males. They have hundreds of variations on their songs that they sing. They're just constantly riffing. It's kind of like feathered jazz musicians. It was an extraordinary thing. under the approach to Gatwick Airport. So there were jets thundering overhead. It was this very strange mix of wildness and 21st century life.
20:04Iroro Tanshi:So that's what this rewilding is. It's essentially letting the land go back to the way that it was. And you write about a couple of different examples here, including in the mountains of Romania, where they're using, this is fascinating, they're using bison to help move the process along. Just tell me briefly about that. This is in the Southern Carpathian Mountains,
20:21Scott Weidensaul:which is one of the largest wild areas anywhere in continental Europe. And they're not using American bison. They're using European bison. And they're hungry. And so they're, you know, as at the Nepestate where they're using, you know, English longhorn cattle and Exmoor ponies and several species of deer to sort of modify the land naturally, in the southern Carpathians, they're doing the same thing with bison. The bison strip the bark off trees. They create openings. And what they're doing is maintaining this mosaic of habitat across the landscape that these birds have depended on, you know, that humans had maintained with their grazing animals for many years.
21:01Scott Weidensaul:The bison, which had been extinct in the Carpathians for more than 250 years, are now doing that on their own.
21:07Iroro Tanshi:Well, you say pretty clearly in this book that saving birds can save the planet. A world that works for birds will work for us all. I have to ask though, what realistically do you think lies ahead for so many of these species that you've been talking about despite our best efforts to save them when so much damage has already been done to the planet?
21:28Scott Weidensaul:That's a hard one. And I think that – I understand what the stakes are here. I understand what the challenges are here. But I also understand that one of the biggest hurdles we face is despair. Is it going to be hard to bring back birds? Might it be impossible to really bring back birds? Maybe. But the only way we know it's impossible is if we don't try. And as you say, a world that works for birds in their complexities of migration, the fact that they inhabit every single ecosystem on this planet, if we can figure out a way to make this world work for birds, it's going to work just fine for everything else, including us.
22:08Iroro Tanshi:Scott Wiedensahl is the author of The Return of the Oyster Catcher, Saving Birds to Save the Planet. Scott, thank you so much.
22:15Scott Weidensaul:It's been such a pleasure. Thank you, Peter.
22:21Iroro Tanshi:if you are a birder or bird curious or just like stories about birds we've done a few recently that you might be interested in scroll back in the feed to march 7th or search for our episode called this fairyland bog is a beacon for winter birders and a sponge for the climate that's a visit to minnesota's sax zim bog where high season is the frozen depths of winter when owls and other rare birds fly south from the boreal forests of Canada. Check it out and follow Here and Now Anytime so you don't miss any future coverage. It's not the last story we're going to do about birds. I can tell you that much.
22:59Iroro Tanshi:But coming up, we've got one more story about another animal that's seldom seen and underappreciated. Stick around.
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25:26Iroro Tanshi:10 years ago, wildlife researcher Yororo Tanshi found something incredible in a cave in Nigeria. A species of bat known as the short-tailed round leaf bat that had not been seen there in almost five decades. Her discovery helped kickstart a conservation movement in West Africa to protect rare bats from poaching and wildfires, as well as other threats. And for that work, she's one of the winners of this year's Goldman Environmental Prize, sometimes called the Green Nobel. She told Scott Tong, the short-tailed round-leaf bat is about the size of a golf ball, but with a wingspan of up to 10 inches.
26:04Iroro Tanshi:It's a cute fluff ball that just becomes this beautiful, beautiful hand-winged animal that flies around. Your rediscovery received a lot of attention, helped attract funding for you and your research partner, scientist Beneth Obite, who happens to be your husband. And the two of you, some of your work is educating people. So let me ask you, do bats get a bad rap? They do. And it's the first thing on everyone's thong, like, why bats? You know, we get asked that question all the time. And we just soak it up. You know, we're like, yes, let's talk to this person about bats and bring our passion. Some people might say, well, I still don't like bats.
26:49Iroro Tanshi:In Nigeria, there's a lot of stigma about bats being like witches. By witches, do you mean there, for some, there is this notion that they're possessed or something? That's exactly right. People typically just don't only shy away, but they're also persecuted in the sense that if there's a bat on your wall, for example, you know, people will take that as a bad omen and they will kill that bat people start to pray and start to bring down the bats and it's all this sort of negative perception and bad rap that bats get either just from the cultural connotations but also you know the movies haven't really helped whenever count dracula is showing up there's got to be a bat somewhere in the background or lots of bats in the background.
27:39Iroro Tanshi:It doesn't help. You know, media hasn't helped. Well, the reality, of course, is these bats are endangered. Tell me about that and how you defend against that. The golf-sized bat, the short-tailed round-leaf bat, it doesn't really like people. And I hate to put it that way, but it's not because it hates people. It just doesn't like to be disturbed. So when you approach this bat, if you were, you know, looking for it in the forests, or at least in the cave especially, it doesn't fly away quickly. It has what we call weariness. It has a long weariness time. So it will stay there for a while until you get really close and bother it.
28:19Iroro Tanshi:But as soon as it vacates that cave, it doesn't come back. Where a lot of people are doing hunting and whatnot, you're not going to find a bat there just straight up. It would not be there because there's too much disturbance. The key problem for bats, at least for the species, is the loss of habitat, primarily from wildfires. Just to talk about wildfires, the Goldman Prize team is recognizing your work protecting these Nigerian bats from wildfires. And I understand farmers in the area can set fires to clear their land for planting. So how have you worked to reduce the incidence of these fires?
28:57Iroro Tanshi:What we're really dealing with is a scenario where local communities have used wildfires for centuries and they would use the weather to predict when's the best time to burn. But it's not a very precise model in their minds. It's like, oh, we can burn just after the end of February and it should be fine. But you see, with erratic weather patterns, that has completely altered their ability to make those predictions that are, you know, in your mind predictions. So you were succeeding at discouraging farmers from setting fires at dangerous times when they could become wildfires. So they're more limited fires and they're less frequent.
29:43Iroro Tanshi:And then you aim for zero out of control wildfires and therefore protecting the bats. That's exactly right. You can draw an arrow through all of these activities and get to back-protected. People don't often realize this. When you say you're protecting an animal, it doesn't mean you're taking that, if it's a wild animal, it really does not mean that you're taking that, individuals in that population or that species, and putting them in cages to protect them from threats and whatever. No, you are protecting your natural habitat. That's what you want to do. You want to protect the landscape for them.
30:16Iroro Tanshi:So because you're doing that, you're now protecting the bat population. And in our case, we have seen not just higher rates of encountering these bats, but also other bat species in the area. And I could easily also tell you that it's also had impacts on the local communities too.
30:41Iroro Tanshi:there's more to that conversation and you can listen to it and find pictures of the bats at hereandnow.org but that's it for the show today here and now anytime comes from npr and wbur boston today's stories were produced by will walkie and me chris bentley our editors were mark navin michael scotto and cat welch technical direction from caleb green matt reed and andre Peralta. I wrote the theme music with Mike Moschetto and Max Liebman. Our digital producers are Alison Hagen and Grace Griffin. And here at now's executive producer is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.
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