The trillion-dollar case against Meta

0:00Thaddeus Cleveland:WBOR Podcasts, Boston. This essentially is a product that was rolled out knowingly, knowingly, putting our kids at risk to monetize. The company behind Facebook and Instagram is facing a major lawsuit that could force it to pay more than a trillion dollars in fines and change how it does business.

0:35Thaddeus Cleveland:It's Tuesday, August 18th, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. I'm Kalyani Saxena. Today on the show, the government is pausing a border wall project in Texas after widespread pushback, including from President Trump's own party. A barrier or a wall is meant to separate people, to divide people. And I can tell you that regardless of where somebody's from or what political party they belong to, this wall has truly united people. Also, we'll get an update on Venezuela after this summer's devastating earthquake.

1:13Russell Coleman:I mean, unfortunately, sadly, we still have relatives, you know, clambering over the rubble. Still six weeks on, still trying to find the bodies of their loved ones.

1:24Thaddeus Cleveland:But first, Meta is on trial. The company is facing a lawsuit from a coalition of states alleging that it crafted Instagram and Facebook to hook children. The lawsuit also claims that Meta lied to the public about the risks the platforms post to kids and gathered data on children in violation of the law. By the way, the coalition is bipartisan and seeking more than a trillion dollars in penalties and damages. Plus, restrictions that could change how these apps and other social media companies work. Opening arguments kicked off today, and Kentucky is one of the states suing. Rob Schmidt spoke with the state's Republican Attorney General, Russell Coleman.

2:10Thaddeus Cleveland:So, Mr. Coleman, your lawsuit alleges that Meta knew that its products were harming children, but that Meta did nothing to stop or to prevent it. What's the evidence that you have? I am pleased to say today, Rob, that over half the states in this country, 29, let's talk about this, red states, blue states, rowing together, over 29 states are sitting in a courtroom asserting that Meta harmed, knowingly harmed our children, monetized, used technology to monetize and harm our kids. The evidence is hefty. I'm looking forward to opening statements today, but we'll be rolling out our case within the coming days.

2:51Thaddeus Cleveland:You're going to see some damning assertions from behind the veil inside Meta itself. This is technology, and I know that many, not necessarily your audience, tend to zone out. They don't understand technology. That's for the kids. It boils down to this, Rob. If I produce a widget and I know that widget harms kids, but I market that widget, and I would say market that widget and monetize it quite a bit as something safe, then I have crossed a threshold. I have run afoul of states' consumer protection statutes. And that's what we're leaning on here. We're saying this essentially is a product that was rolled out knowingly, knowingly, putting our kids at risk to monetize.

3:39Thaddeus Cleveland:It all comes down to money at the end of the day. The longer our kids stay on, the longer their eyeballs are viewing this technology, the more they're harmed. So I go back to my first question. What kind of evidence do you have that Meta knew about what that these technologies, as you allege, were addictive to children? No, and I'm in no way dodging your question, but the reality is I'm going to let that roll out in the courtroom. We're talking about internal documents. We're talking about witnesses, experts that can demonstrate this level of knowledge. And so it is that you have half the states in this nation asserting that this was rolled out knowingly.

4:20Thaddeus Cleveland:So stay tuned. OK, so Meta says Instagram and Facebook already have measures to protect minors. And it points to teen accounts with built in safety settings. I'm guessing you're going to say that these measures are not sufficient. Explain that to me. So this is a season where so many of our kids are going back to school. and you look at what their summers look like these past few months versus what our summers look like as kids. We had to twist arms, our parents did, to get us back in the house back some years ago. You have a whole generation that has to be unglued from the screens where there is no limitation as to the doom scrolling, the length of time.

5:04Thaddeus Cleveland:These are algorithms that themselves are targeting our kids. algorithms. So no, there are not sufficient protections. There have not been sufficient protections given the nature of the harm. I'll go back to the widget example. I could assert that there were certain limitations on the use of that device, but the reality is these technologies, not only, and stay tuned in terms of other defendants, not only meta, there's a reason that states like the Commonwealth of Kentucky are going after the addiction machine that is TikTok or the platform that is the playground of choice for predators, which is Roblox or character AI, which has a narcissistic algorithm that harms kids.

5:52Thaddeus Cleveland:This is the opioid fight of our time. Those of us who serve in these roles as attorney generals, we go to where the threats are. And this is the opioid fight of our time in these jobs. So Meta has already been losing in court. It was ordered to pay nearly a billion dollars to New Mexico this year. In March, a Los Angeles jury awarded nearly$6 million in damages to a young woman who sued Meta and Google. How much broader is this lawsuit and what implications could it have? So you talked about the money briefly, but then said, made a comment about and improve the platform and change the platform.

6:26Thaddeus Cleveland:That is where the real benefit can be derived for our kids, that there can be protections, common sense protections that every parent understands that can be incorporated. In legal ease, it's known as injunctive relief, but it is to build in the kind of things that had been incorporated 15 years ago at the threshold, common sense measures that will keep our kids safe, that will limit the danger and the impact on kids' mental health. It's common sense. We call it injunctive relief. It's common sense improvements to these platforms that we're seeking. That is Kentucky Attorney General Russell Coleman.

7:05Thaddeus Cleveland:And a note that the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, a philanthropic organization set up by the founder of Facebook, is a financial supporter of NPR.

7:18Thaddeus Cleveland:After the break, the federal government is hitting pause on a border construction project in Texas' Big Bend National Park after a massive outcry from local residents and politicians. That's coming up in just a moment.

7:40Thaddeus Cleveland:This message comes from Jerry. Many people are overpaying on car insurance. Why? Switching providers can be a pain. Jerry helps make the process painless. Jerry is the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurers in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over$1 ,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy, download the Jerry app or head to jerry.ai.npr. Bulldozers that were tearing up ground at a beloved national park have gone silent. After fierce bipartisan outcry from local law enforcement and residents who depend on park tourism, the Trump administration has paused building a border wall through Big Bend National Park in southwest Texas.

8:30Thaddeus Cleveland:U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Rodney Scott says he wants to hear those concerns, and he's in Texas today meeting with local officials, including Thaddeus Cleveland, the sheriff of Terrell County, Texas, who joins us now. Sheriff Cleveland, welcome. Howdy. Thank you for having me. It's great to be on with you. So first, explain to us why there has been rare bipartisan agreement in Texas that any border wall construction that would affect Big Bend National Park needs to stop. Yes, ma 'am. So I think the best way I've heard it put is that, you know, a barrier or a wall is meant to separate people, to divide people.

9:09Thaddeus Cleveland:And I can tell you that regardless of where somebody's from or what political party they belong to, this wall has truly united people because we want to protect this park along the U.S.-Mexico border that is extremely diverse, not just with the terrain, the wildlife, the plants. I mean, it's a truly unique place here in Texas as well as the entire United States. I was also struck that a lot of local officials have referred to the thousand-foot cliffs along the Rio Grande Riverbank in the park as God's walls. And they say that these are a natural deterrent for migration, that any kind of construction would damage the park's unique ecology.

9:50Thaddeus Cleveland:Plus, I saw figures that Border Patrol's Big Ben sector is incredibly large, but yet accounts for just about 1 % of apprehensions along the southern border in the last fiscal year. Is that right? Yes, ma 'am. And look, first and foremost, I support border security. I support building barriers where barriers are needed. But as you mentioned, what we have out here is a God-made barrier. And then I have to mention that if we were going to use eminent domain to take sovereign American land, Texans land, to basically cede it to Mexico along with the Rio Grande River, because the river zigzags, you're going to have to come off the river quite a ways.

10:31Thaddeus Cleveland:And that's going to be a lot of land. Sheriff Cleveland, I understand that you and U.S. Customs and Border Patrol Commissioner Rodney Scott worked together in the 1990s as Border Patrol officers. You've remained friends. You reached out to him with your concerns over the Trump administration's plans to build this 30-foot tall steel wall along the entire length of the border of Big Bend National Park. That was former Homeland Security Secretary Christy Noem's idea. Tell us what you said to him and what was his reaction that got him to temporarily halt construction? Yes, ma 'am. So I don't know that I can take all the credit for that.

11:11Thaddeus Cleveland:But I will tell you, once they first initiated this, he reached out to me and said, I had no idea this was going on. And what happened was, Kristi Noem, because of the disasters that happened in Minneapolis, New Orleans, Charlotte, Chicago, and LA, and when I say disasters, we've never carried out immigration interior enforcement in that manner. And Rodney had let her know that. She wanted to build a barrier from one end of this sector, 30 foot, as you described, all the way to the other. Once she was removed, Rodney did change those plans up. Again, I still think they could be better planned based on my experience and the years I've spent out here patrolling this portion of the border.

11:50Thaddeus Cleveland:And as you mentioned earlier, we will be meeting later today, and I think we will see some changes. Tell us what you and the other officials will be telling Commissioner Scott today when you see him in person. We're all, you know, again, going to be going to bat for our communities, whether it's our local businesses, because so many businesses rely on the tourism that just passed through Alpine, that passed through Sanderson, through Marathon. through Van Horn, Marfa. So that'll be obviously a topic. And then those people that live down near Bigman National Park, some landowners look to have their property taken by eminent domain.

12:23Thaddeus Cleveland:And that's land that's been in their family for years and cut off whether it's livestock, cut off wildlife. It just, it makes no sense. It can be done so much better. And the reason I say that, and I'm really big on talking about the technology that's available to us, the technology that we use out here in my area of operation that I use on a daily basis. And the thing I tell the most are the Predator Bee drones. That's what we use over in Iraq and Afghanistan. When we get the opportunity to use them here, they're very successful. Last question, Sheriff. Given that there have been only about 200 immigration apprehensions within the boundaries of Big Bend National Park during the last fiscal year, it's not necessarily the highest priority area for immigration enforcement.

13:09Thaddeus Cleveland:At the same time, one of the Trump administration's signature policies is immigration enforcement. So is it going to be difficult for the DHS secretary and Commissioner Scott, your friend, to back away from a tough border enforcement plan right there in Big Bend? Wow, that's a great question. And certainly because we know President Trump, during his first administration, his first campaign, as well as his second campaign, He campaigned on building that big, beautiful wall from one side of America to the other side. And Rodney has a lot of say-so, but I think it'll be the administration that has the final say-so in what transpires down here.

13:51Thaddeus Cleveland:Thaddeus Cleveland is a former longtime Border Patrol officer. He's now sheriff of Terrell County, Texas, near Big Bend National Park. Thank you so much, Sheriff Cleveland. Thank you. God bless y 'all. Y 'all be safe and reach out anytime.

14:09Thaddeus Cleveland:Coming up next, it's been nearly two months since Venezuela was slammed by two devastating earthquakes. More than 6 ,000 people died. And there's still no estimate from officials on how many more remain missing. And all that turmoil came after U.S. Special Forces seized the country's autocratic leader, Nicolás Maduro, in January. So how do things look on the ground in Venezuela? After the break, Indira Lakshmanan speaks with Phil Gunson, senior analyst for the International Crisis Group. Stick around.

14:51Thaddeus Cleveland:Nearly two months since a devastating double earthquake struck Venezuela, authorities say more than 6 ,400 people there are confirmed dead and more than 16 ,000 injured. Officials have still not released an estimate of the number of people missing. Meanwhile, it's been more than seven months since U.S. Special Forces seized autocratic leader Nicolás Maduro and brought him to New York to face drug trafficking charges, replacing him with his vice president and oil minister from Maduro's United Socialist Party of Venezuela. Political observers in Caracas and Washington are asking questions about what the Trump administration's plans are to support a democratic transition in Venezuela.

15:33Thaddeus Cleveland:Phil Gunson is a senior analyst with the International Crisis Group, and he joins us now from Venezuela's capital, Caracas, where he lives. Welcome back, Phil.

15:41Russell Coleman:Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you.

15:42Thaddeus Cleveland:So let's start out with the terrible tragedy of this earthquake. Why has the government been unable for two months now to account for how many people are missing from this disaster?

15:54Russell Coleman:Well, I'm not sure if it's unable or unwilling. I mean, this is a government which, as a matter of general practice, conceals and distorts information, public information that should be available to everybody, even things as simple as the GDP figure or the homicide rate. They don't like to give out information. And the figure of missing people, of course, is particularly sensitive, unlike the figure of dead, which can be attributed perhaps just directly to the disaster itself. The figure of missing is kind of like an index of the incompetence of the government. If they're still missing so long after the earthquake, how come they haven't been found?

16:30Thaddeus Cleveland:All right. Two months on, who is helping families search for loved ones who they know are still missing? I understand that many survivors are still living in tents despite seasonal downpours?

16:41Russell Coleman:Yes, the conditions for survivors and in general for people down on the coast in La Guayra, which is the hardest hit area by far. Yes, people are living in tents. And this is the rainy season. It's been raining very hard. in Caracas and down on the coast as well. And people have been suffering really a great deal from that. In terms of who's helping, I mean, unfortunately, sadly, we still have relatives, you know, clambering over the rubble. It's still six weeks on, still trying to find the bodies of their loved ones. And there really hasn't been that much help. The government has been more focused on demolishing damaged buildings and clearing away the rubble.

17:20Thaddeus Cleveland:All right. So amid all this loss of life and the tragic search that continues for missing relatives, the U.S. is actually sponsoring talks between the ruling party and the handpicked interim leader, Delcy Rodriguez, who was Maduro's vice president, and an opposition that seems to be handpicked also by the Trump administration. Tell us what's going on.

17:44Russell Coleman:Yes, these are talks completely framed and the agenda completely determined, it would appear, by the United States. And as you say, the delegations themselves effectively chosen by the United States. But that's not necessarily all bad news. I mean, it's certainly the case that the main opposition is not taking part in these talks. But there has been, at least on paper, an agreement. On the 12th of August, they signed an agreement which covers various things, but perhaps most importantly on the political front, a complete reform of the Supreme Court, a 32-member Supreme Court in Venezuela, which is totally dominated at present by the government.

18:21Russell Coleman:And its presence is a key obstacle to any kind of free and fair political transition.

18:26Thaddeus Cleveland:Wow. Okay. What about last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner, who's Venezuela's leading opposition leader, Maria Corina Mochado, who is actually living in exile? She's not even in Venezuela.

18:39Russell Coleman:Yes, Marekuna Machado left Venezuela late last year in order to collect, clandestinely it has to be said, in order to collect her Nobel Peace Prize. But it's not just the government of Dulce Rodriguez that doesn't want her back. It seems that the Trump administration is not very keen either. In fact, Donald Trump, right at the beginning, immediately after the U.S. intervention that removed Maduro, made it quite clear that he regarded Machado as a very nice lady, but someone who wasn't capable of leading this transition process. So she remains very frustrated, of course, outside Venezuela, desperate to come back.

19:16Russell Coleman:But so far, she hasn't challenged the Trump administration's determination to keep her out, at least for now.

19:22Thaddeus Cleveland:What else do listeners in the United States need to know about what's happening in Venezuela right now, Phil?

19:27Russell Coleman:I think perhaps overall, you know, thoughts have to be with ordinary Venezuela. And not just those who suffered losses and the loss of their homes and businesses in the earthquake, but more generally, since the United States intervened in early January, they really haven't seen much, if any, improvement in their daily lives. In particular, inflation remains the highest in the world. And wages are at rock bottom. I mean, the basic wage, the minimum wage here, hasn't been raised for years and is now worth, if you can believe it, just 17 US cents a month. Of course, nobody lives on that. They live on other things.

20:04Russell Coleman:But it's incredibly difficult for people just to put food on the table. And basic services are not just expensive, but effectively collapsed. It's tough. And people want change. And it's understandable that they want an immediate election because a lot of people feel that, you know, if Maria Corina came back and stood, she would win and then everything would immediately get much better. I think, unfortunately, transitions are much more complicated than that, and it's going to be a slow process, probably with no immediate transition to full democracy.