Tips for navigating a tough job market

0:00This message comes from Travel Nevada. Sand dunes, old saloons, high noons, pioneer trails and cowboy tales, snooze emails. Get a little out there. Plan your trip at www.travelnevada.com. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. Do I need to be the person that will call you and show up in person and be like, I'm a real person, I promise. Please just talk to me. I feel desperate. Job hunting is rarely, if ever, fun. And it's never been easy. But these days, it can be especially bewildering. Today, we've got career advice aimed at recent college grads, but which is really applicable to anyone. It's Friday, June 5th, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBR.

0:57I'm Chris Bentley.

1:07College graduates have a lot to celebrate this time of year, except the job market most of them are walking into. The unemployment rate for people in their 20s is significantly higher than it is for the rest of the workforce. We've been asking recent grads to share their job search experience with us. Here's Addison Hinkle of Boston, who recently graduated with a master's in writing and publishing. I already feel behind, and I think that the most sad, disappointing thing is when I tell people I graduated with my master's in writing and publishing, and they get a confused look on their face like, why would you do that?

1:47Or how are you going to find a job? And it makes me sad because I spent the last two years studying something I really love and I'm passionate about. And I wouldn't trade it for the world, even though I am struggling to find a job right now. I think that there's still hope to be had. We heard from lots of listeners, like Addison, and we put some of their questions to Judy Amali Rajkumar. She's a career coach at SMU's Cox School of Business in Dallas. And she told Peter O'Dowd she would sum up the job market for young grads right now with one word, frustrating. Oh, man. Hearing Addison's story, this is something that we see all the time and I've been observing, especially post-pandemic as the market has been evolving.

2:34You know, it is a reality and the things that make the biggest difference now, It is the intention that someone has in implementing and executing a career strategy. And that is something different. I think that people go into their degrees, you know, aspirationally, which is what they always should do. What's changed this time, though, is that the degree alone is no longer going to get you the job. It is the degree plus experience. And so that is what makes it challenging in this particular job market. And so hearing someone like Addison, something that I would say is like, let's make sure that the people out there who you want to work with, do they know you?

3:15And how do they know the type of experience that you bring from your MA degree? And also what you were doing before you were in your master's program. Technology today has made applying a lot easier, but technology has also made it noisier. And so straight applying, and if you're just getting into your job search, it's going to feel bleak when you get started if your only strategy is I'm going to throw out some applications. And now the intention means having an actual career strategy plus a network to back you up.

3:46Judi Umali-Rajkumar:Okay, let's go on to our next listener because I think she's getting to this very point. Sarah Carruthers of Kansas City, Missouri, has a master's in learning experience, design, and technology. She tells us that her job search has been mostly online. She's had no interviews and she wonders if it's time to hit the pavement. I'm kind of at the point where I'm like, do I need to go back to that? Do I need to be the person that will call you and show up in person and be like, I'm a real person. I promise. Like, please just talk to me. And I feel desperate. Like, it really is coming to that point.

4:22And I know other people are kind of feeling that too. Maybe we do need to go back to in-person knocking on those doors and making those calls.

4:32Judi Umali-Rajkumar:Judy, if I'm hearing you correctly, the answer is yes, absolutely you need to be doing those things. You are correct. The challenge today is people think of networking as going to an event and handing out business cards, and that is not the reality. Networking is truly about relationship building. As an example, I was talking to one of my contacts at a Fortune 100 organization. they might have an application cap of 1 ,500 applications, and they're hitting that within 72 hours. Oh, my gosh. And so in order for you to really stand out, it is getting somebody to pull that resume out to the stack.

5:08And the challenge with what the caller was mentioning, our listener, is that if you're not speaking to enough people, you're also missing out on opportunities to figure out, like, what are those particular employers looking for in their job today that might be different from the job posting.

5:27Judi Umali-Rajkumar:I've been hearing a lot about the way that AI has upended the way that employers screen job applications and even the way that interviews are done. You're calling it noisy. How do you adapt to that? You know, first I would say you've got to start with, you got to know your values first. You got to know yourself, start with that. Two, you've got to have a very clear destination. So, for example, if you have to think of a certain role, you want to build your resume, your profile, the people that you're communicating with around that particular role. And with AI today, I know people assume that they're competing against AI.

6:08They're actually competing against people who know how to use AI tools more effectively. And so something that I would challenge our listeners on is, with all the different AI tools that are available right now, use it to your advantage, but it can't replace you. So what I mean by that is, yes, you've got a resume, but sure, you can use an AI tool to be able to help you decipher the hidden language of a job description and make sure you've got the keywords in that resume and build it into your own language. I work with students who use AI tools to be able to help simulate potential interviews, repair them for jobs as well.

6:47And again, it's not replacing the human experience. It's helping them to practice and to prepare for potential conversations.

6:54Judi Umali-Rajkumar:My co-host Robin Young spoke with Joshua Beach, an Air Force vet from Roseville, California. He went back to school to study engineering, graduated last year, and he tells us he's worried about job hunting at his age and the mental toll that it can take. And he's just 36. Let's listen. You know, every semester around graduation time, there's younger grads entering the market. So as a non-traditional student, I sometimes wonder whether employers in that market see my experience as an advantage or as something that makes me harder to place. You know, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. What do you think of Josh's situation there?

7:29Oh, that is a very frustrating situation. And I hear what Josh is saying. I would also compare that to anybody right now who are probably around the same age that have been laid off and have to reenter into a completely new market and don't know how to approach a job search. And so I would consider Josh as a great example of someone who should be able to hone in on all their experiences, is. Make sure that they are speaking about it. How are they branding themselves publicly? Is he on LinkedIn? Is he sharing some of the thoughts that he is learning or the insights he's learning from his classes and presenting himself as a potentially new thought leader?

8:08Judi Umali-Rajkumar:We've been hearing from a lot of people who are watching this unfold in their families. Maybe they have a loved one who's struggling to find a job right now. Do you have advice for those people who just may not know how to help if their child or their spouse is struggling? I have a personal experience with this myself. What I would say is allow the person to have a pity party. Give them a time limit and say, okay, you struck out. You just went through a six-round interview and didn't get the job. What we're going to do is we're going to celebrate this weekend regardless because you went through a really long process and I know you're going to get back to work next week.

8:54It's fine. But today we're not going to talk about it. You're just going to, let's have fun together because we haven't had fun in a while. I think those things go a long way.

9:03Judi Umali-Rajkumar:Yeah. I like that. Judy Umali Rajkumar with SMU's Cox School of Business in Dallas. Thank you so much. And thank you to everyone who took the time to share their experience with us. We appreciate it. Thanks so much. Thank you.

9:29Well, that conversation did not make me jealous of people just getting out of college. Although I know the advice is not just applicable to recent college grads. I mean, who hasn't wondered how AI is complicating the job market? or maybe helping prepare for the job hunt, like Judy Amali Rajkumar said. At any rate, I loved hearing from all of you listeners. So much so that I asked my fellow Here and Now producer, Ashley Locke, who made that conversation happen, what else she heard listening to your messages. Ashley is the one who often listens to every single response. So if anyone ever doubts that it's being listened to, not true.

10:10No, and Ashley, what were some of the other things you heard and people you heard from that you wanted to share with us? Yeah, so in the conversation you just heard, we heard from primarily people who are students or recent grads. But we also heard from a lot of other people that are interested in this population, meaning parents, loved ones, teachers, mentors. I wanted to share a soundbite that we got from a listener named Kurt Roberts. He's from Mukilteo, Washington, and he says his daughter is graduating this year from college with a degree in computer science. The prospects for her look so bleak.

10:48She has decided to go back and get a master's in electrical engineering, completely change the field of study. So things are looking kind of bleak all over the place, even as we celebrate her getting as far as she's got. So that's, of course, hard to hear and very relatable. We actually heard from a lot of people that are in the master's, PhD level graduates and people that are in computer science fields and engineering fields, which is really interesting. Our expert, we did ask her, what would you say to someone who is trying to write out a bad job market and go back to school? And she said, that's fine, but you still need to be strategic.

11:28You need to be networking. You need to think about what is your niche? What do you want to do after graduation? Like you can't just hide out and hope to figure it out later. Like you need to have a goal. Yeah, that's really interesting. Actually, I graduated in 2010 and some of my upperclassmen friends, a lot of them were engineers. They were graduating right around the Great Recession of 2008. And a lot of them went back for a master's in engineering, just like it sounds like Kurt Roberts' daughter is doing. But, you know, that's only a one-year program in most places. So it's not like you're buying yourself a ton of time.

12:01What else did you hear? Yeah, we also heard from a student in Mississippi who was talking about going back to school to get his master's as well, and that it was really hard to get the graduate admissions process has become really difficult. Would love to follow up on that at some point. We also heard from a listener who is actually not in college. She's like, oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood the assignment. I'm not in college, but I graduated 30 years ago. Her name is Carolina Perez-Sanz, and she has a master's degree in public relations and a PhD in linguistics. And she's trying to find work. She's having a hard time.

12:38She's trying to relocate to Milwaukee after living in Miami, but having a hard time finding a job in her field and has been training AI models in creative writing. And now she's working as a door-to-door salesperson. It's the only job offer that I've gotten. I'm doing it. It's an okay job, but it's very different for me because after spending my whole life in the quote-unquote knowledge industry, I find knocking on doors and just walking around neighborhoods extremely odd. And thank you to Carolina for sharing that because that's very vulnerable of her. And I hope that it makes people feel less alone if they're having a hard time in this market.

13:24Wow. Yeah. I can't imagine having a PhD in linguistics and then becoming a door-to-door salesperson. No knock on that job, but it's just not what you expect. Yeah, I think there's a whole other story here that people are underemployed or they're in jobs that they don't exactly want. Like we heard earlier from a veteran in California who wants to be an engineer, but he's currently working at a property management company, like office type work. So it's like people aren't starving. They have jobs, but they just don't feel fulfilled. And they wonder, like, is this it? Yeah, and they can't get ahead.

14:00I mean, you have a you have a job to pay the bills, maybe. But that doesn't mean you're saving, as we've heard many times. So it's not just recent college grads struggling or asking these questions. And and we also heard from people further along in their careers with some advice to offer. Yeah, I will say like, we also heard from listeners who felt like compelled to share like they wanted to help. They wanted to, like people who are teachers or mentors. They're like, oh, just keep trying and try to differentiate yourself on your resume and keep networking and, you know, keep troubleshooting. I do think it's hard, though, for older generations to give younger generations advice right now because they're going through something that we've never been through before.

14:42Yeah. You mean like with AI and technological change? Yes. For sure. I mean, everyone remembers some kind of disruption to the economy or technology or both around the time that they were graduating and looking for a job. But I do think it seems different now. It's sort of hard to give advice, right? I don't know what I would tell a college grad right now, personally. I guess our career coach, Judy, would just say, there's a lot of things that you can do. There's a lot that you have control of, even though it feels like things are out of control right now. I love that people are so engaged. They're not just putting their heads in the sand.

15:17They want to share. They want to express feelings. They want to offer help and advice and connection. Right now I'm working on something for America's 250th birthday, looking at what the American flag makes you feel. Yeah, we love hearing from you. We are asking for stories about the American flag. What does seeing the flag make you feel? If you want to record a short message for us sharing your thoughts and feelings about the stars and stripes. Go to hereandnow.org slash flag. Do you fly the flag? Do you have a story about it? Do you feel differently now about it than you used to? And why? Right, Ashley?

15:58Did I miss anything? Yep, that's right. And I would love to hear about your lived experience, who you are, and how that helps shapes how you feel. Here and Now's Ashley Locke. Thanks. Thank you. That URL, again, one more time, is hereandnow.org. We'll be right back. Scott Tong recently checked out a bald eagle's nest in Washington, D.C. There was a pair of eagles there tending to their nest, which had some eggs in it. He did a story about the birds with Dan Rauch, a fisheries and wildlife biologist for the city. Well, bad news. Scott checked on the nest, and the eggs are gone. The biologist told him, that's life, but it's still sad.

16:45On the science side, it was like, this is nature. And then, you know, on the more emotional human side, it's like, I was really pulling for him. And it's just, it hit pretty hard. I went to kayak through some of the marshes, which they frequent, to look for other birds. Like, I was looking for marsh wrens, and, you know, there are yellow-billed cuckoos and Baltimore Orioles out there, but what was missing was the eagles. These are places where they hang out all the time. I couldn't find them. They were nowhere to be found. So they have moved on and hopefully they'll come back next year and try again.

17:14Do you think there's a reasonable chance that this couple will turn up in a new nest in a new place around you? They have high nest fidelity, which means they're going to try to use the same nest again, but it might not be the same pair. Now it's been two years in which this nest has failed. So last time that happened, he came back the next year and there was a new female. He is much older. He's at least 17. Maybe it goes the other way. Maybe a younger male shows up with this female. But it's such a fantastic location. And these nests are really easy to see for bald eagles, especially in the winter that are passing through.

17:48Someone will try to use that nest again. So today we're talking to you about this disappointment. But more broadly, what is the picture for bald eagles in this country? Bald eagles in general are doing fantastic. There are now about maybe 400 ,000 eagles in the lower 48. So it's not really a species that we're very concerned about, but you always want to monitor. And since they're at the high end of the food chain, they are the apex predator. There's rarely a day I go out where I don't see bald eagles. That would not be true 40 years ago. But I love to go out and you see them all the time, and it never gets old for me.

18:34That's Dan Rauch, wildlife biologist for the District of Columbia, speaking with Scott Tong. Scott also got some movie recs this week from NPR's Bob Mondello. Specifically, he wanted to know what the big deal is with two hits from YouTubers making their major motion picture debuts. Both are out with big horror films. Okay, we're talking about Backrooms and Obsession, who've done so well. seems these films, at least to this Gen X-er, sprang out of nowhere. Tell us the basics about these. Maybe Backrooms first. Okay. Backrooms is a horror flick with a super simple concept. A furniture dealer finds a secret door in his showroom that leads to a bunch of passages and rooms where you can get trapped.

19:20It's based on a series of short videos that 20-year-old Kane Parsons has been making for several years, and that idea was based on an internet horror legend. Kane Parsons started making YouTube videos when he was nine. He now has more than three million YouTube followers and many thousands more on other social media. And I'm guessing that that's why this film feels like it sprang out of nowhere if you're not one of his followers. It was promoted largely online and in weird, sometimes viral ways, not through conventional advertising. Well, okay. So my kid's world, not mine. It did very well. $81 million in North America over the weekend.

19:58I gather that's a very big number? It's huge. In fact, no horror film franchise, and you can bet that this is going to be a franchise now, has ever started that high. Wow. Okay. Obsession. I gather it's grossed more than$100 million since opening? Yes. $100 million worldwide in three weeks. So it's not performing at quite the same level. It's by a YouTube content creator named Curry Barker. He is a comparatively ancient 26. It's sort of a horror rom-com about a painfully shy guy who uses a magic willow branch to get a friend to fall for him, with obviously disastrous results. Barker also has more than a million followers on YouTube and TikTok, but not for this specific property.

20:41So I gather this film, kind of over the weekends, has had a certain staying power? Yes. It's amazing. I used to work in publicity for a film theater chain. You always, saw things go down, especially horror movies. They always drop precipitously after the first week. Remember Sinners? Sinners was considered amazing because its second week only dropped by 5%. Obsession, which opened in over 2 ,000 theaters, went up by almost 40 % in second week. And this week it's up again. That just doesn't happen. The last time it happened for any wide-release film outside of the Christmas holidays was 1982 and E.T.

21:19the Extraterrestrial. Is that amazing? Bob Bondello. More about those two films in their full conversation right now at hereandnow.org, where you can also find more about those eagles. I've heard good things about Obsession. My friend said he highly recommends it if you want to watch a movie that makes you feel absolutely awful. Well, I like horror movies, so yeah, I like feeling absolutely awful, I guess. Check it out if you do too.

21:54That's it for the show today. Here and now, anytime comes from NPR and WBUR. Thanks to producer Ashley Locke. Kat Welch edited her career coach Convo. Michael Scotto edited this podcast. Technical direction from Caleb Green, Matt Reed, and Andre Peralta. Our theme music is by Mike Moschetto, Max Liebman, and me, Chris Bentley. Our digital producers are Allison Hagen and Grace Griffin. And here and now's executive producer is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. Have a great weekend. We'll be back with you on Monday.