Trump administration says the IRS can't audit Trump

0:02WBUR Podcasts, Boston. Congress could certainly challenge this, but Congress right now, I'm not sure, would be willing to do that. And we will see creative lawsuits brought, but it's a tough thing to challenge because of the way the president and the attorney general set this up. Trump and his family get immunity from IRS audits. just as the president disclosed hundreds of millions of dollars of stock trades on his behalf in the first quarter of the year.

0:42It's Wednesday, May 20th, and this is Here and Now anytime from NPR and WBUR. I'm Chris Bentley.

0:52Today on the show, Republican primary voters deliver for Trump, once again denying re-election to a conservative member of Congress who got on his bad side. Trump is strong in primaries, but primaries are not general elections. And Trump has huge strength with his base, but he's toxic with independents and crossover groups. And that's going to come to a head in a few months here. Also on Trump's bad side, wind energy developers say the federal government has essentially frozen their industry by refusing to process routine filings with the Federal Aviation Administration. That process has stopped completely over the past year and a half.

1:30More on that coming up in about 10 minutes. But first, the IRS is, quote, forever barred and precluded from prosecuting or pursuing, and, quote, audits of Trump, his family members, or businesses. That's what Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche signed off on yesterday as part of the unusual Department of Justice deal that created a nearly$1.8 billion fund of taxpayer money to compensate Trump allies and others who claim they were unfairly investigated or prosecuted by the government. It's all connected to a settlement between the federal government and the president who sued the IRS earlier this year over the week of his tax returns back in 2019.

2:16You are not alone if you're wondering how the head of the executive branch can reach a settlement with his own government, or where that taxpayer money will go, or whether the Trump family's new immunity from IRS audits amounts to a get-out-of-jail-free card for tax evasion. Mary McCord is also wondering that. She's a Georgetown law professor and a former prosecutor. And she told Deb Becker the arrangement is highly unusual. Well, I think it's not legal and I'll explain why. But I do want to make sure that listeners know that even though we are focusing here on the bar on the IRS, continuing with any investigations or audits of Donald Trump or any family members or any of his organizations, This addendum actually applies to far more than the IRS.

3:06It is any federal department or agency is forever barred, at least under the terms of it, from any investigations, prosecutions, examinations, etc. on any matter. So it's not even limited to IRS matters. But as to the IRS, federal law says that it's the Secretary of the Treasury, not the Attorney General, that can compromise any case under the internal revenue laws at the time before any reference is made to DOJ. DOJ can't compromise any claim regarding internal revenue laws unless there's been a referral made to DOJ. So first, there's just a lack of authority for the attorney general to enter into this type of an agreement.

3:53And only the attorney general signed this, not the secretary of treasury. Secondly, there is a federal law that bars the president from directly or indirectly ordering the IRS to conduct or terminate any investigation, audit, etc. So it definitely is contrary to federal law. So you expect there will be legal challenges, I would assume. Well, I expect there will be challenges to the establishment of the fund because there's a lot of problems with the fund itself. And I think there will be efforts to challenge this. It is hard, though. It's a hard thing to have standing to challenge. Congress could certainly challenge this, but Congress right now, I'm not sure would be willing to do that.

4:37And we will see creative lawsuits brought, but it's a tough thing to challenge because of the way the president and the attorney general set this up. The New York Times and ProPublica did a deep dive looking at Trump's tax returns that were leaked in 2019. And the Times reported in 2024 that an IRS audit could cost Trump about$100 million. dollars. Could this be challenged, this addendum be challenged on the grounds that it could financially benefit the president? Is that relevant? It is relevant. I mean, certainly the Department of Justice's own Office of Legal Counsel has, you know, opined, and this is a different context, but a president can't pardon himself because of that sort of self-dealing.

5:23And a corollary of that is a president shouldn't be able to be the judge of his own case. And And this is a president, right, who has said very openly, I'm suing the government and now I'm the one who has to, you know, come up with a compromise or a settlement. So, you know, I think there are all kinds of problems with this and all kinds of potential challenges. It's just the laws in our country, as they've been developed in order to bring a case, you have to have standing and general taxpayer standing, which is, I think, as taxpayers, we are all pretty outraged about this. is not just generally something that gives a plaintiff like you or me or any other U.S.

6:02taxpayer an opportunity to challenge something, even something that is putting taxpayer money into Trump's pocket. But I will say they've made a lot of fanfare over the fact that this quote unquote settlement of his litigation does not result in any money to him. It is money that's going into this fund. But for the reason you just pointed out, this addendum that bars any type of tax audits or tax investigations or tax litigation could definitely have the result of him, you know, not being penalized financially, which is just the same thing as putting money in his pocket.

6:43Coming up next, Thomas Massey lost his primary in Kentucky. The Republican congressman angered Trump by pushing for more from the Epstein investigation and drew the ire of the pro-Israel lobby by calling to end foreign aid. Both dumped mountains of money into the race to defeat him, and they got what they wanted. Deb Becker has more on Tuesday's election results after the break.

7:14We're getting a clearer picture of President Trump's grip on the Republican Party. Candidates supported by the president picked up some major wins in several primary elections yesterday. One was in Kentucky, where longtime Congressman Thomas Massey lost after becoming one of the president's top political targets. NPR political correspondent Domenico Montanaro has been tracking all of this. Hi, Domenico. Hey there. Okay, let's bring out the scorecard here. Let's start in Kentucky. Massey's been in Congress for over a decade. He was one of the few Republicans willing to disagree with the president at times, mainly about the war in Iran, the Epstein files.

7:53And it looks like Trump said, you know, Massey has to go. How did that play out? How big was the loss? Yeah, Massey lost by about 10 points. So it was a pretty wide loss when you consider the incumbent reelection ratio in this country is over 85%, 90%. So being targeted by the president and his allies certainly hurt Massey. Massey and someone like Senator Rand Paul in Kentucky thought that they could propel Massey over the finish line. But really he got swamped with TV ads here. I mean, this was the most expensive House primary in history. $33 million in TV ads for a House primary is just insane.

8:34And most of that was targeted at Massey. But look, when you are a thorn in the president's side and he makes the determination that he is going to go after you, you're in trouble in a Republican primary. And that's why we've seen after all these years so few Republicans wanting to stick their necks out because this is what's likely or possible to happen. I mean this is following on the heels of Senator Bill Cassidy, incumbent in Louisiana, a Republican losing his primary and not advancing to a runoff after crossing Trump on several health-related items. And there's a long list of people who voted for Trump's impeachment, for example, like Cassidy did, who are no longer in Congress.

9:18And then there's Georgia primary elections yesterday. Trump was going after Republicans there who refused to overturn his 2020 election law. So what do you think Georgia tells us about where that state is heading into November? Well, Georgia is one of those states like Alabama that has a very conservative primary electorate. But unlike Alabama, Georgia is a very purple state in a general election. I think that that's what the double-edged sword that Trump presents for the Republican Party because, yes, again, in these Republican primaries, people who are allies of Trump are able to advance and people who weren't lost.

9:56People like Brad Raffensperger, who was the secretary of state, who was in the middle of that controversy in the 2020 election when Trump was trying to pressure him to overturn the results of the election. He refused to do so. He did not advance to the gubernatorial runoff and he finished distant behind the two who did advance. So his political career has been shortened. The former lieutenant governor, Jeff Duncan, wound up running as a Democrat. He was so ostracized within the Republican Party and he did not advance to a runoff either. So Trump really flexing his muscles in these primaries. But now Republicans have another four-week primary runoff with the Senate race there.

10:35And, you know, again, Trump allies running and trying to out-maga each other in many respects. And that is going to be a tough pivot to make to a general election in a purple state when John Ossoff, the incumbent Democrat, is a top Republican target to flip that seat. And Ossoff right now has a huge advantage. And speaking of outmagging each other, the Texas Senate race, Trump endorsed Ken Paxton ahead of next week's runoff against longtime Senator John Cornyn. How are Republicans reacting to this? Well, if there was going to be one race this fall that is going to get a ton of attention, get really messy and get really nasty, if Ken Paxton advances, the attorney general in Texas, very controversial.

11:25Trump now endorsed him. If he gets through, this is going to be one of those races that is just going to – the entire country is going to be watching. And there's going to be millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars spent because the governor in the state, Greg Abbott, is certainly not going to let the state turn blue easily and let James Tallarico, the Democratic nominee, win very easily. And you are going to see just hundreds of millions of dollars potentially spent taking down Tallarico's character, trying to boost Paxton. It's going to be one of those major races to watch. And it was a surprise, frankly, that Trump endorsed Paxton, especially at this stage, because the thinking had been that Trump might endorse John Cornyn, the incumbent senator, way back when he said he was going to endorse when the primary happened to sort of avoid a messy runoff.

12:17He didn't do that and then winds up endorsing now at this late stage, which could put the thumb on the scale or it could be Trump reading the tea leaves of what's coming. But Paxton made this one move to say that he was going to endorse the Save America Act, which not only would require photo ID to vote, but to require passports or birth certificates to even register to vote. And that's been something that Trump has really wanted to see done. And it's not that Paxton coming out in support of it is going to do anything to advance it, but it shows his loyalty, his fealty to Trump. And that's what's been most important here.

12:50Let's just talk about big picture here for just a moment. You say that folks who don't go along with the president are in trouble in elections. But we also hear a lot of reports about Trump's approval ratings weakening, right? So very fast here. What's the main message overall, do you think, from these primaries? You know, again, Trump is strong in primaries, but primaries are not general elections. And Trump has huge strength with his base, but he's toxic with independents and crossover groups. And that's going to come to a head in a few months here. OK, NPR political correspondent Domenico Montanaro, thanks so much for being with us.

13:23You're welcome.

13:27We also spoke with Republican consultant Whit Ayers about the results of yesterday's elections. If you want to hear that and more coverage from this political primary season, head over to hereandnow.org Coming up next the Trump administration's war on wind power. Stick around

13:54American wind energy is in the doldrums, but it's not because the wind stopped blowing. The Trump administration wants to buy back lease agreements from developers of offshore wind farms and has frozen approval for new ones. Onshore wind energy projects are also at a standstill in many places because they can't get permits. Among the companies affected is Engie North America, a subsidiary of the French energy giant Engie, although I think over there they pronounce at Angier. We called up their North America CEO, David Carroll. He's also board chair of the trade group American Clean Power Association.

14:31He told Deb Becker there are an estimated 200 projects stalled right now worth more than$30 billion of investment. Essentially, we go through the Federal Aviation Administration for anything that's above 200 feet. And it's a process that's worked for over 20 years. And the FAA has an interagency process that reaches out to the Department of War these days and has for the past 20 years. And if there are impacts that these projects create for the Department of War or any other agency, a mitigation agreement is put in place. It's negotiated with that agency to make sure that those impacts are minimized or eliminated preferably.

15:07And so that process has stopped completely over the past year and a half. So basically, when it gets to the Pentagon, it doesn't move anymore. It's stalled for one reason or another, it used to be a relatively simple process and that's no longer the case. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, it used to be a very normal course of business. And what we have seen is that there were mitigation agreements that were signed. We had several of them just with inside of Benji, but with inside the industry, very large, about 50 to 60 of those. And the mitigation agreement was completed between the companies and the Department of War, signed by those companies sent back and never countersigned.

15:45And therefore, that just stops the FAA review process in its tracks. I wonder how much energy is affected by this, how much power might be generated by these projects? If you were going to equate this, you know, roughly about 34 gigawatts, that's about 15 million U.S. homes. That's at a time when we're talking about data centers, we're talking about bringing back manufacturing into the U.S. And so you have an unprecedented load growth here in the U.S. You'd have to go back to the post-World War II era to see that load growth. And then on top of that, the affordability crisis. And so we should be doing everything as a country, as a society, to move energy projects forward.

16:21The grids that have biggest diversity of sources, so wind, solar, natural gas, nuclear, they fare the best. Yes, but at the same time, President Trump's been blasting renewable energy. He calls it impractical, unreliable, expensive. He says it raises national security concerns. We actually have a bit of tape of President Trump at a White House event in March. Let's listen. We have not approved one windmill since I've been in office, and we're going to keep it that way. My goal is to not let any windmill be built. They're losers. What do you think when those kind of statements come from the White House, strong statements, really, about your industry and understanding what this agenda is from President Trump.

17:05So, you know, we're advocates of all the above, and that's what President Trump ran on. And we strongly believe that, that this is going to be a grid that is its strongest, with natural gas being part of it, nuclear being part of it, wind, solar, batteries. And so I think that if we really want to support the AI agenda, which the Trump administration supports, we should trying to bring every electron we can onto the grid. Also, if you look at the times we're in right now with the Iran war and natural LNG supplies being disrupted across the globe, the U.S. has largely been insulated from that. But if you fast forward a decade when we're bringing on a lot more LNG export, that's not necessarily always going to be the case.

17:43And where we can produce it off the natural resources we have here, I think we have a much stronger national security pose for our grid, our electoral grid, moving in the future. What do you think the effect is on the United States as other countries like China are pushing forward with renewable energy sources? It would be nice to see us embrace these technologies and to have a really diverse mix of sources of technology. Renewable energy started here in the U.S. It was the research and development that really got solar started here in the U.S. And then we seeded that manufacturing. It's great to see us try to bring that manufacturing back and to support the U.S.

18:24jobs that are associated with it. And then we're also seeing that wind and solar right now, we have that manufacturing base here. We have the ability to bring it on the grid very, very fast. And so that supports our race in the AI, which is one of the most important races we have. When you mentioned China, when you mentioned other countries and economies, that if the U.S. can win that race to AI, it will continue our economic strength. And so in terms of if the U.S. continues stalling some of these projects, does it hurt competitiveness of this country? I believe so, because one, it slows down the fastest and the cheapest.

18:59It is one of the least expensive methods to bring energy to our grid and also the fastest. And so we certainly need more natural gas production. We certainly need more inertia on the grid that natural gas and spinning generators provide. But we need to have a good balance of that. And I also think when you have renewables, you have a lot of plants spread throughout the country. So therefore, you have weather impacts that are dispersed. You have any grid impacts that are dispersed. You have the ability to generate from many different locations. And so if we have a strong grid and many generators, we actually have a much stronger energy security system.

19:34Okay. NG North America CEO Dave Carroll, who is also chair of the board of the American Clean Power Association. Dave, thanks so much for being with us. Thanks for having me.

19:47That's it for the show today. Here and now, anytime. Comes from NPR and WBUR Boston. Today's stories were produced by Jenea Williams, Julia Corcoran, and Thomas Danielian. Our editors were Todd Munt, Mikaela Rodriguez, Michael Scotto, and Kat Welch. Technical direction from Caleb Green and Matt Reed. Our theme music is by Mike Moschetto, Max Liebman, and me, Chris Bentley. Our digital producers are Alison Hagen and Grace Griffin. And here and now's executive producer is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with you tomorrow.

20:22Thank you.