What does the American flag mean to you?

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0:16Chris Bentley:WBUR Podcasts, Boston. I love our country and our flag unconditionally. That does not mean uncritically. Reflecting on what it means to be an American as the country turns 250 years old.

0:49Chris Bentley:It's Friday, July 3rd, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR. I'm Chris Bentley.

0:58Chris Bentley:It is Independence Day weekend and a big birthday for the United States. 250 years ago, the Second Continental Congress formally adopted the Declaration of Independence. We are marking the occasion by talking to people about the flag. Fun fact, the flag wasn't formally adopted until almost a year after the official founding of the country on what would become Flag Day, June 14, 1777. But the flag is still a potent symbol for many Americans. A little later, we'll hear a conversation between a Bangladeshi immigrant and his son, who feel quite differently about the country today and about the American flag.

1:40Chris Bentley:The flag does not represent an administration or the current government. I think the flag represents the country that we live and we love. But first, we've been asking you for your reflections on the flag, and producer Ashley Locke has been listening to them all. Ashley, you asked people what seeing the flag makes them feel, and they had a lot to say, didn't they? Yes, I will say that it has forever changed how I feel myself when I see the flag. When I'm driving around now every day, I see flags hanging from people's mailboxes, from their homes, at cemeteries, on the back of trucks. And I think people have very personal reasons for flying the flag, and it's very nuanced and not necessarily what you would think.

2:29Chris Bentley:So one of the listeners that I wanted to share with you is Suzanne Wiley. She's from Hot Springs, Arkansas. She really feels deeply about the flag. And she sent us a voice memo after seeing the flag in person at the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History. I believe it was the most moving experience I've had in a long, long time. it represented so much to me, our country, our soldiers that fought and died, and the future for my grandchildren. I don't even know what else to say except that it represents everything I love about America. And it's been very difficult for me these last few months with the turmoil that we've been in as a country.

3:17But on the 4th of July, I will put my flag out to say that I'm a proud American.

3:26Chris Bentley:Wow. She was really moved by seeing the flag. Yeah, you can hear her tearing up. And I think that's kind of, I would say, the classic emotion that you might expect someone to feel about the flag. Yeah, I mean, I know she said like in the last few months, maybe alluding to some political developments or when I'm not exactly sure. But otherwise, it seems like a very timeless kind of sentiment about the flag. Just seeing this symbol, stars and stripes is extremely moving. And for some people, it represents everything they love about this country. What else did you hear from some people about how they're flying the flag or how they're thinking about the flag in this moment?

4:02Chris Bentley:Yeah, I think people have a lot of complicated feelings. We heard from a lot of people that are sad right now. They're fearful, they're angry. I think about my son has this children's book about emotions and feelings, and it's okay to have feelings. and I kept trying to separate listeners into categories like these people are pro flag and these people are con flag and these people are happy and these people are sad and I realized that there it was really hard to do that and it's not what real life is like people are complicated they have mixed emotions I think a lot of what's been happening in our country over the last couple years with immigration a lot of people mentioned January 6th and the insurrection and people bringing flags to the Capitol.

4:49Chris Bentley:A lot of people are having mixed emotions. Some people usually fly the flag. They have their flags folded up in a garage. They're waiting for the time to feel right. Other people flying their flag, even if they feel complicated feelings right now. Right. And it sounds like that would include this next listener clip I want to hear from Texas. My name is Mary Martindale. I live in Paradise, Texas. And when I fly the American flag now, I fly it as a distressed flag. I feel that the MAGA movement has taken over that flag, and it doesn't represent the values that it wasn't used to. It's heartbreaking for me to think that way, but it's the only way I can.

5:32Thank you.

5:34Chris Bentley:It sounds like a lot of people have sort of conflicting views, like you were saying. I mean, people want to fly the flag, but then they feel like they're sending a political message by doing that, that maybe they don't want to send. That's interesting. Yeah, I think people have very personal reasons why they do fly the flag or they don't. And I don't think that you can necessarily judge a book by its cover. What else did you hear, Ashley, from all these listeners who wrote in or left us messages? Well, I would just say broadly, I'm very impressed at how nuanced people have been in their responses and how caring and intentional.

6:09Chris Bentley:I think sometimes there's this feeling in our country right now that everyone is numb and they're tired of fighting and the division. And what I heard from our listeners is a lot of passion. People want to be engaged. They want to feel connected with other people. Let's hear from one more person. This person's energy was really inspiring to me. His name's Robert Morrison, and he called in from Chapel Hill, North Carolina. When I see it, I immediately have distrust of the people displaying it. And this is the disaster. You take ownership of it. Well, the flag, the ownership needs to be taken back.

6:49Chris Bentley:And it needs to be displayed prominently by every real law-abiding, rights-loving, fair-minded, reasonable American citizen. That is the message I would like to give today. Please, Democratic Party, please implore everybody to put out the flag who truly believes in a fair and reasonable and good and just country. So he's calling explicitly for it to be taken back by Democrats, which I guess he would be implying that Republicans have taken it for their uses, kind of like we were hearing from the previous. Yeah, when you heard from Mary, she said she felt the flag had been co-opted by the MAGA movement.

7:34Chris Bentley:So particularly the side of the Republican Party that's very supportive of President Trump. It seems like everyone's passing back and forth the flag and who owns it. And some people are adamant that it belongs to everyone. Yeah, it's a symbol of the entire country. And yet, it's definitely been employed throughout history as a political symbol for one particular view or one segment of the country. And, you know, I hear people saying now we should bring it back and we should make it a symbol of our faction. But that kind of back and forth fighting, it's like that's a little bit what the founding of the country was about.

8:11Chris Bentley:It was, you know, who is this for? Who are we? Who gets rights? They seem like very contemporary political debates, but they're also really kind of going back to the history of the founding of the country 250 years ago. Just interesting to see and reflect on and hear from people as they struggle with this, these questions. Yeah. And it was interesting, too, that for a lot of people, it sounds like it depends on the context of when they see the flag. It changes how they feel about it. you know, if you see one at a cemetery or if you see one on a grave, you might feel one way versus, you know, you had quite a few people write in that said, I don't like seeing flags on t-shirts.

8:51Chris Bentley:That's against flag etiquette. And I don't like seeing big giant flags hanging out pickup trucks. It's rubbing your patriotism in my face. So it sounds like the context matters to people too. Well, I hope on this Independence Day, people can reflect on the flag and America while they're enjoying the holiday weekend as well. So thanks so much, Ashley, for listening to these. And thanks to everyone who wrote in and left us a message. We really love hearing from everybody. Yes, thanks, Chris. And thank you to everyone who wrote in and put yourselves out there. I know it's not easy. I really enjoyed hearing from all of you and happy 4th.

9:29Chris Bentley:Happy 4th. We'll be right back.

9:38Chris Bentley:Well, we asked and you answered. Here are some more of the responses that Ashley Locke got when she asked, what do you feel when you see the American flag?

9:52I want to tell you about what I feel when I look at this little two by three foot flag that I'm holding right now. The one my folks back in Rich Square, North Carolina, sent to me Christmas of 1969 while I was an infantry lieutenant in the 1st Infantry Division in Vietnam. I see this little flag as a link to my belief that no matter what my personal view of the war was, when my country called, I felt it my duty to go. But this little flag was with me on the ground the rest of my year in Vietnam and with my fine platoon of mostly draftees like myself. And it helps me remember how each one of us were actually fighting for one another in a war we really didn't like.

10:49and each one of us would have literally died for one another if the need had arisen. My father especially was very against the Vietnam War and me being a little girl, I honored his feelings. But I was so upset that the flag had seemed to have been appropriated by those who supported the war. And I've always hated that. And I'm so glad now that our flag is for everyone. It should never be used as a symbol of one side against the other. When I look at the American flag, I think about freedom and liberty like many others. But it's also special for me because I think about my father's full military burial, taps being played, the flag being draped on his coffin, the flag being given to my mother.

11:49And I now have that flag in a case up above my bookcase. And it just reminds me of his commitment and his dedication to our country like so many others. I bless America Land that I love, love, love, love, love, love I stand beside her And I guide her through the night with the light from above Anyway, as an old saying, I've come a long ways, baby But I love America And I say it loud And I'm proud to be an American because it's a progressive realization of a worthy idea. So you could put me on a record. I have no problem with the American flag. I don't have a great need to wear it or wear it, but I could do it even as I have a mega camp.

12:45Although I like stars, I don't love the color combination or the design of the U.S. flag. I think we could do better. Unfortunately, it has come to symbolize for me unthinking patriotism. Maybe we could consider shades of gray in our patriotism, and maybe there should be more blended colors in our flag. As a child, I believed we were a very good country. Then I traveled and read. It shocks me to see that we really don't believe that all men or people are created equal. Now when I see our flag, I feel some sadness and disappointment, as well as some hope that we might someday become the country we would like to think we are.

13:36Chris Bentley:I'm not going to be thrown into the category of being ashamed of the flag. I'm proud of the flag. I'm proud of what this country was built on. I'm not proud of the history of what this country is built on, but that's where we are right now. So when you look at that flag, believe in the Declaration of Independence. Believe in the Constitution. Believe in everything that this country was founded on. Embrace the immigrants. Embrace people that are different than you. Embrace the rights of all the citizens. and salute it with glory. The flag belongs to the people.

14:25Chris Bentley:That was Michael Cook of Raleigh, North Carolina, Elizabeth Johnson in Columbia, South Carolina, Eric Hall in San Diego, James Lee Frazier Jr. of Savannah, Georgia, Celine Grenier from Capitola, California, and Paul Dunlap of Del Mar, California. We also heard from a self-described curious priest and quilter for racial justice, the Reverend Carol Burnside of Baltimore, who told Peter O'Dowd last month she was working on an art project for the holiday. Right now, I'm working on my third piece that incorporates a flag, and this piece is for the 250th anniversary. It's not anywhere near finished yet.

15:09I've got a lot to do on it, but it will be two flags. One will be horizontal, the normal way we see the flag, and it will be bright and clear and beautiful. And the other one is made out of some fabrics that look kind of like wood that's worn. So the old-looking one will have some references and depictions of stories of things that have happened in our country that have not lived up to our ideals. And the bright, shiny one will— Like what? What are you referring to? Well, for instance, some of the things that I will put on that flag, I mean, we can go way back to the very beginning, the genocide of indigenous peoples, the enslaving of kidnapped Africans, the internment of citizens of Japanese descent, dismantling of our Voting Rights Act by the Supreme Court in recent years, the overturning of Roe versus Wade, the killing of any citizens by ice or by local police.

16:20Chris Bentley:Carol, you've described the dingy side of the flag that you're quilting. You also have this bright side. Talk about that. Yeah, and that's what that piece of the art piece stands for, is that we can be better. The Voting Rights Act, even though we've lost a lot of it, we had it and we can get it back. The appointment of women to the Supreme Court, notably Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. The fact that we have same-sex marriage, just there are many, many bright spots, and I haven't thought of all of them, and I won't be able to put all of them on there, but I will put as many as I can to show the hope that I have in our country.

17:01Chris Bentley:You know, we've been learning through this project that a lot of Americans, and I think this is true whether you're liberal or conservative, a lot of people have a complicated and nuanced view of the American flag. And it sounds like from what I'm hearing from you, the same is true. Absolutely. I think the way I could best describe it is that I love our country and our flag unconditionally. That does not mean uncritically. Even as I became more political person, and I realized that a lot of people with the same ideology that I have or similar maybe disdain the flag, I have clung to it all the more fiercely because it's my flag.

17:49And I know that the values that I hold are the true values of what this country was designed to be. And I'm not letting go of that.

18:06Chris Bentley:The Reverend Carol Burnside in Baltimore. There is more to that conversation, including her definition of patriotism. And you can listen to it all at hereandnow.org, where you will also find reflections from Eddie Glaude on his new book, America USA, How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries. You can also find that conversation in June 19th's episode of this podcast, if you scroll back in the feed. Thanks again to everyone who wrote in. If you're listening to this thinking no one has voiced your opinion about the flag or America and you want to be heard, you can always write us about anything you hear on this show, really, at letters at hereandnow.org.

18:47Chris Bentley:Or leave us a comment in the podcast app you're listening to us on right now. If you're not following the show, do that first. Click that plus button in the top right in Apple Podcasts or wherever it says follow in your podcast player of choice. And thanks. We'll be right back after one more short break.

19:15Chris Bentley:There's one more reflection on America that I want to share with you on this holiday. In the spirit of getting together with family, Russell Chowdhury of Potomac, Maryland, heard our appeal while listening to Here and Now during his workday and called in to share his thoughts. Russell is a first-generation Muslim American and a millennial. His father, Sultan, is an immigrant and a boomer. The two men, father and son, have very different opinions about the American flag. And they came into the NPR studios in Washington to talk about those feelings with David Fulkenflick, starting with what Russell thinks.

19:52To be honest, I think these days it's kind of shameful. A lot of what I've grown up to believe as far as like our ideals have seemed to be untrue. It brings up feelings of injustice, to be honest. You told my colleagues that your mom and dad immigrated to the U.S.

20:12Chris Bentley:from Bangladesh more than 40 years ago. Both were civil servants for the federal government here. In a sense, that sounds like an American success story. Yeah, I agree. I think there are aspects of our government that do good things. But I think as a whole, I think we have a lot of work to do. And you said that you felt this way really since 9-11. Can you point to specific changes in policy or incidents or other things that made in response to that or other things since that make you really react this way? I mean, sure. You know, there was always like, well, the Patriot Act was one. I think that definitely put into policy like widespread profiling.

20:54You know, in my own experience, I've dealt with airport security randomly being checked. And I think randomly is like more times than I'd like to count, you know, certain certainly there have been instances of like microaggressions and such. So. So that's the perspective of Russell Chowdhury.

21:13Chris Bentley:Let's bring in his father, Sultan. Sultan, you came here as an immigrant by some lights, an American success story. How do you feel and how do you respond when you see the American flag? Indeed, I feel happy and proud because the American flag is a symbol of the country and the government. And also a flag does not represent an administration. I think the flag represents the country that we live and we love. So, Sultan Chaudhry, how does it make you feel to hear your son hold such a different point of view about the country in which you chose to raise him? Well, you know, we live in a democratic society.

21:59Chris Bentley:My expression is allowed and should be allowed. And I also say I have different perspective, much longer life. And I lived around many parts of the world, visited five different continents. and thin societies and the unjust actions taken by different places. And I would also say, as first-generation immigrants, we are more accommodating. We expect if somebody did certain disrespectful behavior at me, we swallow it in order to keep on moving. That's the immigrant tax. That's the immigrant tax, as you say. The immigrant tax. It's accepting racism just to kind of get through and move up the status ladder.

22:46At the same token, I strive myself to overcome that.

22:52Chris Bentley:Because if I improve my family, the society improves. So, I mean, it's two different aspects of looking at things. But, you know, Martin Luther King looked one way and others looked a different way, for example. And Martin Luther King also said that he was integrating his people into a burning building. So, like, yeah, there's perspectives. But I think that you can't have an irrational optimism to where we're at right now. And I think it's easy to say that when, like, you're not going to be here for the future, you know? So I have a child, too, that I have to raise in this society. And he goes to school with a bulletproof backpack on every day.

23:32So it may have been nice for the last 50 years or whatever. But I don't know how nice it will be.