In short
The episode mixes three segments: (1) Jayson Tatum’s children’s book “Baby Dunks-A-Lot,” about basketballs stopping bouncing and a kid hero saving the game; (2) a conservation report on the endangered razorback sucker in Colorado River recovery; (3) a “pickle era” food segment with pickling history and trends.
Guests (and backgrounds)
Jayson Tatum, Boston Celtics star and Olympic/NBA champion; Sam Apple (book co-writer), Nia Gordon (illustrator) are credited; conservation reporter Steena Sieg interviews U.S. Fish and Wildlife fish culturist Mike Gross and Palisade High School teacher Patrick Steele and students; food writer Karen Solomon, author of “Pickles Illustrated.”
Key claims
Athletes can be positive role models and reading/bonding time matters; razorback suckers are vital algae/detritus “vacuum” cleaners and recovery is possible; pickles’ salt-acid-crunch drives universal appeal and brine has uses beyond food.
Notable examples
Kids “kissing” razorback suckers at Palisade; 417,600 eggs incubating at a federal hatchery; DIY bread-and-butter pickles; “pickleback” (pickle brine with whiskey) and “pickle-spiked” drinks; crunchy is the “table stakes” for a good pickle.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroducing Jason Tatum's Book
0:45 to 1:12
Discussion of Jason Tatum's children's book 'Baby Dunks-A-Lot'.
“If a puffed pickle cheese ball is where it's at for you, and that's your level of engagement, I say go for it.”
Storyline of Baby Dunks-A-Lot
1:12 to 2:27
Exploration of the book's plot and characters, including a basketball emergency.
“that what you call your little man, Deuce?”
Inspiration Behind the Book
2:27 to 3:56
Jason discusses his inspiration for writing a children's book and its significance.
“A bad guy has put a spell on basketballs.”
The Importance of Reading for Kids
3:56 to 4:59
Jason reflects on the value of reading and its role in bonding with children.
“And often in those homes, there are no books.”
The Impact of Athletes on Kids
4:59 to 6:35
Discussion on how athletes influence children and community connections.
“All of this is just a reminder also of how much you and basketball stars and athletic stars mean to kids.”
Understanding Athlete Responsibility
6:35 to 6:51
Jason emphasizes the responsibility of athletes as role models.
“And certain players I looked up to, you know, I kind of felt like I was on that journey with them and you kind of feel those emotions.”
Continuation of Baby Dunks-A-Lot
6:51 to 8:46
Jason shares thoughts on the future of his children's books post 'Baby Dunks-A-Lot'.
“By the way, I don't suppose you have a comment on the trade?”
Transition to Conservation Story
8:46 to 9:00
A brief transition into the next segment about environmental conservation.
“Coming up next, it's not just basketball players doing good these days.”
Razorback Sucker Conservation Efforts
9:00 to 14:01
A story about efforts to save the endangered Razorback Sucker fish.
“But in recent decades, the fish has teetered on the brink of extinction.”
Introduction to Pickles
14:01 to 14:23
Explores the current pickle trend and its cultural significance.
“Coming up, we may be experiencing the Peak Pickle era.”
Show all 17 chapters
The History and Popularity of Pickles
14:27 to 15:10
Discusses the historical significance of pickles in American cuisine.
“From the pickle push carts of New York's Lower East Side in the 19th century, To today's viral TikToks featuring glitter pickles and pickle-spiked sodas, America is obsessed with the brine.”
Diverse Pickling Traditions
15:14 to 16:36
Explores different global pickling methods and influences.
“Eastern European comfort food to your years teaching in Japan.”
Pickle Juice and Athletes
16:37 to 18:10
Examines the use of pickle juice in sports and its benefits.
“So some medical researchers have suggested that the shock of the acidic flavor stops muscle cramps.”
Culinary Uses of Pickle Brine
18:11 to 20:16
Discusses various uses of pickle brine beyond food.
“Do you mean flowers in their garden or flowers to make bread?”
Exploring Pickle Flavors
20:17 to 22:15
Talks about unique pickle flavor combinations and DIY pickling.
“First of all, they don't have to be bright green.”
Interview Wrap-Up with Karen Sullivan
22:16 to 22:52
Concludes the conversation with insights from food writer Karen Sullivan.
“I would never begrudge anyone of their pickle pleasure.”
Personal Pickling Stories
22:53 to 24:26
Features personal favorite pickling experiences from the editor.
“Our editor on this story, Micaela Rodriguez, is also a super fan of pickles.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01WBUR Podcasts, Boston.
0:04Karen Solomon:I want to make sure you give him a good kiss, okay? Did you get inside? Oh, yeah. There you go, Woody. Ah, the things we do to protect the environment. It's Friday, July 10th, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. I'm Ashley Locke.
0:31Karen Solomon:Today on the show, a federal agency, a bunch of high school kids, and a baseball team come together to save an endangered fish. And pickles are all the rage right now, resulting in some odd creations.
0:45Stina Seig:If a puffed pickle cheese ball is where it's at for you, and that's your level of engagement, I say go for it.
0:59Karen Solomon:but first Celtic star Jason Tatum has a new children's book out called Baby Dunks-A-Lot the day the basketball stopped bouncing he joins Robin Young to chat about the importance of reading
1:11Jayson Tatum:and athletes as role models last time we saw our little man hero baby dunks a lot by the way is that what you call your little man, Deuce?
1:20Karen Solomon:Not so little anymore, but yeah, he's the eight-year-old Deuce.
1:24Jayson Tatum:Yeah. Well, anyway, we like to think of Deuce as we read the book because you and Deuce are in there and rather baby dunks a lot and can leap into the air and dunk. Now, in this storyline, the commissioner of basketball has called an emergency meeting because all the basketballs in the world stopped bouncing. The commissioner says there's only one person who can save the game of basketball, to which a big guy at the table in a purple singlet that says 23 says, thank you for your trust in me, to which the commissioner says, not you, baby dunks a lot. Is that big guy LeBron James?
1:58Karen Solomon:I don't know if I can necessarily say his name, but I would say through my relationships with, you know, obviously athletes in the NBA and the WNBA, you know, being able to call some of those friends and ask, can we use, you know, their image and likeness in a children's book. And they were all super cool about it. You know, just giving the readers, you know, some familiar faces that they would recognize.
2:22Jayson Tatum:And throw in a little shade at them, which you did in the first book too. Well, okay, back to our storyline. A bad guy has put a spell on basketballs. What went into shaping this book? I mean, you guys sitting around bouncing basketballs and then think, well, what if one of them stopped or how you know what went into this storyline if you will it's all about
2:45Karen Solomon:being creative and for us finding out what the kids are into and obviously it doesn't come out during halloween but it is a halloween theme spooky theme book that kids hopefully will read this summer through halloween and for halloween to come well it is spooky because baby dunks a lot
3:07Jayson Tatum:and his dad, a guy in a green Celtics outfit, go to the bad guy's castle with the sign that says bad guys only. I mean, how much fun is this?
3:20Karen Solomon:It's cool. And for me now, Deuce is at the age where, you know, he's going into third grade, so he's reading on his own and he can read the book and he can read the book to his younger brother. So the whole idea of all this started just off of an extension of my relationship with being a dad. And like many parents and grandparents around the world, like nighttime routine and bedtime stories, that's just a normal thing in household. So being able to expand off that and find this opportunity to create a children's book, it's just been super fun throughout.
3:55Jayson Tatum:Yeah. Well, can we talk about that a second? Because we have spoken to you before and And you have spoken about your own childhood with a single mom who, as I think you said, you never knew if you were going to get that, was it like an orange notice or something that you were being evicted, a mom who was working so hard. And often in those homes, there are no books. There's no time, you know, to read. Is maybe some of that twined in here, too? You know, making sure kids see themselves in books and someone like you pushing books, making sure that maybe they get into some homes which may not have had time for them.
4:37Karen Solomon:Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. You know, like nighttime and bedtime stories wasn't really a thing when I was growing up. And obviously, you know, my kids are growing up in different environments in this situation than I did. And I think it's important. It's valuable. And it's like bonding time that, you know, every kid deserves.
4:58Jayson Tatum:Yeah. All of this is just a reminder also of how much you and basketball stars and athletic stars mean to kids. And we were thinking a lot about this recently when your fellow Celtic Jalen Brown was suddenly traded away to the Philadelphia 76ers. That's a whole story in and of itself. But I don't know if you saw this. There are a lot of videos of little kids weeping. One was of a little kid named Gio, an inconsolable six-year-old who adored Jalen. Let's just listen for a second. I love you so much. You mean a lot to me. You are my favorite player in the whole NBA. And thank you. Thank you for everything that you were saying.
5:47Jayson Tatum:Thank you. Oh, I can't. I can't. Jason Tate, I don't know if you saw that. but just this sense of kids and you guys.
5:58Karen Solomon:Yeah, I think sports has a unique way of bringing people together and impacting people, right? Sports fans can pinpoint certain players, certain games, certain moments where they can remember exactly where they were when they were watching it and how it made them feel. And, you know, fans have connections to certain teams and certain players. and even if you never even met that athlete, you know, you just kind of feel connected and close to them and you feel for them. And, you know, when good things or not good things happen, you kind of feel those emotions because I was the same way when I was younger.
6:36And certain players I looked up to, you know, I kind of felt like I was on that journey
6:40Karen Solomon:with them and you kind of feel those emotions.
6:44Jayson Tatum:Well, now you're doubling down on that, you know, writing kids books, you know, I mean, do you feel it's like I'm sure you feel the responsibility. You know, you're a god in their eyes.
6:55Karen Solomon:Yeah, I think understanding the weight that comes with being in the position that I'm in and always thinking through the lens of being a positive role model, being a person that parents want their kids to admire or look up to is very important to me.
7:13Jayson Tatum:Yeah. By the way, I don't suppose you have a comment on the trade?
7:18Karen Solomon:I don't think I'm supposed to speak on that.
7:21Jayson Tatum:Okay. Well, I'm not supposed to comment directly on what the team does with trades, but you did write on Instagram about your nine years together with Jalen Brown. And, you know, it's not as if you were best friends, but I thought this was very sweet. Forever grateful for all that we accomplished together, for pushing me to be a better player. From first-round exits to winning a chip together, I'm thankful for it all. Nothing but love and respect for you as a player and as a person. Looking forward to see how you attack this next chapter of your career and wish nothing but the best for you. Continue to be special.
7:54Jayson Tatum:There's some modeling there, Jason Tatum.
7:57Karen Solomon:Thank you.
7:58Jayson Tatum:But back to Baby Dunks a lot. We don't want to give away the ending, except that basketballs obviously are bouncing again. What do you think? Are there going to be more books? What do you see happening here?
8:13Karen Solomon:I don't know, because 10 years ago I never would have thought about it. I would be in this position creating children's books. So I've enjoyed the process. I think people enjoy what we've been able to create. So if things continue to go well, why not?
8:27Jayson Tatum:Yeah. Two-time Olympic gold medalist, NBA champion, kids' book author, Boston Celtic Jason Tatum, his new picture book, Baby Dunks A Lot, The Day the Basketball Stopped Bouncing, written with Sam Apple. Park and Nia Gordon did the gorgeous illustrations. And Deuce Tatum weighed in, apparently. Jason Tatum, thank you.
8:46Karen Solomon:Thank you for having me. Coming up next, it's not just basketball players doing good these days.
8:59Karen Solomon:The Razorback Sucker thrived for eons in the Colorado River. But in recent decades, the fish has teetered on the brink of extinction. Colorado Public Radio's Steena Sieg tells us about the effort to bring it back. The Grand Junction Razorback Suckers are playing one of their first ever home games. They hit and run and then win in baseball caps emblazoned with the image of an imposing fish with a distinctive hump. Grand Junction Razorback Suckers! This isn't just a quirky team name. It's a statement about what matters to the community. This rural edge of western Colorado is in the fight to keep the Razorback sucker alive.
9:50Karen Solomon:Every spring, hundreds of people gather on the rocky banks of the Colorado River in nearby Palisade for a joyous Razorback release. All right, all right, students, if you guys are ready to roll, come up. Palisade High School teacher Patrick Steele and his students have been raising these razorbacks for the past year. Steele holds up a glistening green and yellow fish, its suction mouth opening and closing between wide eyes on a blobby head. People are lined up in the bright sun to give these fish a smooch. Make sure you give them a good kiss, okay? Did you get inside? Oh, yeah. There you go, buddy.
10:33Karen Solomon:Well, it was very slimy, and I think I might have kissed its eyeball. I'm not sure. Phoenix Hadley does a quick peck. So does high school senior Violet Gray. It's like somebody, you know, maybe put on some baby oil on their lips. I don't know. Kissing them goodbye is part of the tradition. Gray and her classmates tended to these fish as they grew from inch-long babies to hardy, foot-long juveniles. So it's kind of hard not to feel like a kinship to them, you know, because humans are pack animals.
11:05Karen Solomon:The fish started their life at a federal hatchery nearby. In the spacious warehouse that serves as their home, fish culturist Mike Gross with U.S. Fish and Wildlife shows clear cylinders full of water. Clustered at the bottom are what look like tapioca pearls. Lots of them. If I remember the number correctly, 417 ,600 eggs incubating currently in front of us. Gross expects them to blossom into tiny fish in less than a week. Then they move into tanks that swirl with a current, mimicking life in the Colorado River Basin. The Ure National Fish Hatchery, Grand Valley Unit, releases about 10 ,000 fish across the West every year.
11:52Karen Solomon:Even though razorbacks survived for an estimated 5 million years here, they almost went extinct a few decades ago due to fishing and loss of habitat. We're talking tens of fish left. In 1991, razorback suckers were declared federally endangered. Gross describes them as a vital vacuum. They'll slurp up the algae, the detritus, the bugs. They're out there constantly cleaning. They also move needed nutrients through the water. Gross says losing razorbacks would hurt the whole Colorado River system. But so far, recovery efforts have brought them back from the brink. And to be able to be part of Knock on Wood, their recovery, for the long term, that's an incredible life goal.
12:46Karen Solomon:It doesn't get any better than that in the conservation world. Back on the banks of the river, Palisade High School senior Beckett Carlton is helping grab thrashing, soon-to-be-released fish out of a federal fish trailer, a giant tank on wheels. It's like watching your kid go to graduation, I feel like. And like high school graduation, he really doesn't know what lies ahead for them. Indications are that some of these fish are surviving long enough to breathe. Refreshing good news.
13:16Jayson Tatum:The world we live in is terrifying, and I think that hopelessness sort of is the prevailing feeling among many people, especially of the younger generation.
13:28Karen Solomon:Carlton reflects on this historic drought as he watches his classmates place the last of these hand-raised razorbacks into the dwindling Colorado.
13:38Jayson Tatum:And I think, you know, looking at the river right now, it's low, but it's there. And I think as long as the river's there, I think there's hope.
Read the full transcript
13:45Karen Solomon:There's hope for the Colorado River and hope for the Razorback Sucker, but both need people to act to save them. For Here and Now, I'm Stina Sieg in Palisade, Colorado. Coming up, we may be experiencing the Peak Pickle era.
14:11Karen Solomon:This message comes from WISE, the smart way to manage your money around the world. With WISE, you can send, spend, and receive money in over 40 currencies at the mid-market rate. Learn more at WISE.com. T's and C's apply. From the pickle push carts of New York's Lower East Side in the 19th century, To today's viral TikToks featuring glitter pickles and pickle-spiked sodas, America is obsessed with the brine. My toddler is even a fan of dill pickle corn puffs. Food writer Karen Solomon says this enthusiasm for pickles is not just a fad.
14:50Stina Seig:For as long as there has been food, there has been food preservation. Something about us humans, we just love to eat, even when it's winter, even when things are out of season. and pickling and food preservation are a way to do that. So add more glitter, add more rainbows. I'm ready for rainbow pickles, bring it. But no, definitely not a fad and pickles are here to stay.
15:13Karen Solomon:Well, your background is a really fascinating mix of food influences from your mother's Eastern European comfort food to your years teaching in Japan. So I want to ask how those very different pickling traditions from the salty, sour deli pickle of the West to the delicate sukemono pickle of the East. How do those inform your approach to making the best possible pickle?
15:37Stina Seig:I like to just kind of absorb all the different influences from different parts of the world. So it always baffles the mind to think about, I mean, first of all, what can be pickled? So beyond just cucumbers. I always encourage people to think, you know, other fruits, other vegetables. I love pickled daikon. It's one of my favorites after cucumbers. The radish. Absolutely. Those big white ones, they're very firm, very crispy. Jicama from the Latin American tradition, also a delicious item to be pickled. And then also different thinking about different pickling substrates. Here in the West, we tend to think about vinegar pickles and fermented pickles, But in Eastern pickling traditions, you can use miso, you can use soy sauce, you can use citrus juices, different types of vinegar.
16:25Stina Seig:So there's a lot of different options that create a different flavor profile that maybe are not for pickling long term, but just kind of like redefine what it means to taste a pickle.
16:37Karen Solomon:Well, we're now seeing elite athletes like Wimbledon tennis champion Carlos Alcaraz gulping down pickle juice on the sidelines. So some medical researchers have suggested that the shock of the acidic flavor stops muscle cramps. Can you explain that sort of, not from a medical point of view, but the visceral physical reaction that we have to a really good tart brine?
17:02Stina Seig:Oh, yeah. As a beverage, if we're talking about professional athletes jumping the bandwagon, that's not surprising. People say it often, you know, that a fermented pickle brine has electrolytes, it has salt. So it's replenishing some of what you're putting out when you're sweating quite a bit. But I would feel remiss if I also didn't point out that pickled brine has a good history at the bar as well in recent years. A pickleback or and there's a Mexican tradition. What is a pickleback?
17:32Karen Solomon:I've never heard of that.
17:34Stina Seig:So like you take a shot, let's say, of whiskey and then a shot of pickled brine. Oh, as the chaser. OK, exactly. And the Mexican tradition of sangrita, you take pickle brine, mix it with some fruit juices and maybe a little bit of chili. And then you knock that back after a shot of tequila. So, I mean, it has people use pickle brine on their flowers and for married. So, I mean, it definitely has many uses. I love to I was not aware of athletes ingesting it after a game, but I say why not?
18:10Karen Solomon:You said people use it on their flowers. Do you mean flowers in their garden or flowers to make bread?
18:16Stina Seig:Oh, sorry. People use it in the garden. Yeah, it has an acidity. It can change the color of your hydrangea. And it has other, like, it can enrich the soil. I'm sure there's people whose gardens are growing a lot more nicely than mine who could speak more to that. But yeah, it definitely has that use as well.
18:33Karen Solomon:Well, I was struck from the work that you've done that pickles exist in almost every food culture, from French cornichon to Indian achar to Korean kimchi. Why is the human palate across continents so drawn to this combination of salt, acid and crunch?
18:51Stina Seig:Oh, that's a great question. It's delicious. We have those taste receptors in our mouth that love to taste, you know, the saltiness, the bitterness, the sweetness. Crunch is always a texture that people go after and, you know, makes really boring food more palatable. The example that I often turn to is if you know a British Plowman's pickle, it's a really common thing that you like, Branston Pickle is the most common brand name that people buy off the shelf. And, you know, it's basically taking a cheddar cheese sandwich, which is could be a pretty mild affair, right? And then when you take that and you add that Branston Pickle to it, you've got crunch, you've got tang, you've got salt, you've got texture, like it just wakes up this, this just like a really bland food.
19:40Karen Solomon:And to clarify, for listeners who may not have been to the UK and tasted this. It's so ubiquitous over there, but not so much here. Branson pickle isn't like a literal pickle out of a kosher dill pickle jar. It's a spread, more like an Indian pickle in the jar. It's a condiment. And of course, Indian, there's mango pickle. There's all sorts of fruits and vegetables in Indian cuisine that are pickled and added as little condiments. Let me ask you, for listeners who may be used to standard grocery store or deli spears, briefly give us an easy DIY project that would let us branch out on our own.
20:22Stina Seig:Sure. First of all, they don't have to be bright green. Electric green pickles can be fun, but don't think that it's not a pickle just because it doesn't have that color. I think probably one of the easier pickles for people to embark upon at home. And also one of the most crowd-pleasing textures is like a bread and butter pickle. So if you take a pickle and cucumber, slice it equal parts, white vinegar and water, a little sugar, a little salt, and depending on how thickly you slice it, you know, anywhere from under an hour to a few days, you have like a delicious, crunchy, slightly sweet, slightly salty, like basic Socratic ideal of a pickle.
21:07Karen Solomon:I don't think I've ever heard the word Socratic ideal and pickle in the same sentence. So that was a treat.
21:14Stina Seig:I don't know where that came from.
21:16Karen Solomon:Okay. Lastly, we have to talk about some of the absolutely bonkers flavor mashups there are out there now between pickles and processed foods. There's pickle cotton candy. There's Dr. Pickle, which is Dr. Pepper spiked with brine. There's flaming hot dill pickled Cheetos, pizza flavored pickles. You, on the other hand, use traditional techniques like smoking, curing, and drying. So I have to ask you, where do you draw the line? Is there such a thing as a bad pickle?
21:51Stina Seig:I mean, a bad pickle for me is a mushy pickle, right? And that's, that's in the kind of the homemade realm. So it's got to be crunchy.
21:59Karen Solomon:Crunchy is table stakes here.
22:01Stina Seig:For me, yes. Yeah. That's a, but that's a personal preference. You know, I think not everybody has that same criteria, but that's, that's what, what I look for in a pickle. But as far as like these marvelous Franken products that are coming off of the grocery store shelf with pickle flavoring in them, I mean, yeah, why not? I would never begrudge anyone of their pickle pleasure. If a puffed pickle cheese ball is where it's at for you and that's your level of engagement, I say go for it.
22:34Karen Solomon:Karen Sullivan is a food writer and author of the new book, It's Beautifully Vibrant in Color, Pickles Illustrated. What a pleasure, Karen. I have relished our conversation. Thank you. Oh, no, she did it. She did it. Thank you so much.
22:51Stina Seig:It's a pleasure to be on. Thank you.
22:58Karen Solomon:Our editor on this story, Micaela Rodriguez, is also a super fan of pickles. And she has some inspiration for you from her own family. I like kimchi. I love capers. I like like a really briny olive or feta that's been kind of pickled is really delicious. I would say my favorite, though, would be my grandma's Pennsylvania Dutch red beet eggs, which are pickled beets with eggs. So the eggs get pickled too. Cinnamon, vinegar, sugar, salt. And when the eggs are getting pickled because of the beet juice, they turn pink. And I think that that tastes really delicious. You can just eat it plain with the beets.
23:40Karen Solomon:You can turn it into an egg salad, which is really fun because then you're having a pink egg salad sandwich. Deviled eggs are really delicious that way. I always think it's really comforting and homey, but it's a little bit of fun. It's fun with a pickle.
23:59Karen Solomon:Here Now Anytime comes from NPR and WBUR Boston. Today's stories were produced by me and Emiko Tamagawa. Today's editors were, of course, our pickle lover, Mikaela, and also Michael Scato, Kat Welch, and Shiko Thierry. technical direction from Kayla Green and Matt Reed our theme music is by Mike Moschetto Max Liebman and Chris Bentley our digital producers are Allison Hagen and Grace Griffin here and now's executive producer is Alan Price thanks for listening have a great weekend
From the publisher
Then, the razorback sucker has been swimming in the Colorado River for an estimated 5 million years before humans nearly fished them out of existence. Now, high schoolers are teaming up with a local baseball team and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to save this beloved fish. Colorado Public Radio's Stina Seig reports.
And, food writer Karen Solomon tells us about why consumers are embracing all sorts of pickled-flavored products on store shelves.
See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.
NPR Privacy Policy
