Why a Minneapolis pastor went from Trump supporter to critic

0:00Support for WBUR comes from Is Business Broken? a podcast from the Mehrotra Institute at Boston University that explores questions like, why is innovation in healthcare so hard? Is ESG just greenwashing? And of course, is business broken? Listen wherever you get your podcasts. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. The main message on immigration was that they were going to get criminals. I don't want rapists or killers or gay members to go be out there and making their parks insecure. But what they're doing in Minnesota is not that. A Minneapolis pastor delivering food to neighbors afraid to leave their homes and questioning his vote for President Trump.

0:56It's Tuesday, January 27th, and this is Here and Now, Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. I'm Chris Bentley.

1:06Today on the show, Renee Macklin-Good and Alex Preddy were both observers in Minneapolis, volunteering to document civil rights abuses by federal troops and prevent things from getting out of control. Immigration agents shot them dead in the street. People are grieving and enraged, but not discouraged from exercising their First Amendment rights. Also, those killings by federal agents remind historian Julian Zelizer of the 1970 massacre at Ohio's Kent State University, when National Guard troops shot and killed four students protesting the Vietnam War. The troops themselves are an issue, and that's where the threat is now coming from.

1:52But ultimately, it's a policy decision. It's about the administration, and the buck stops there, and ultimately that's the only way to really bring this to an end. That story coming up in about 15 minutes. But first. This morning, a judge ordered ICE Chief Todd Lyons to appear in court to explain why immigration agents have denied due process to detainees, threatening Lyons with contempt if he doesn't show. The court's patience is at an end, wrote Judge Patrick Schlitz, citing dozens of court orders with which respondents have failed to comply in recent weeks. Some federal agents will be pulling out of Minneapolis, including Border Patrol Commander Greg Bovino, who has been the face of the Trump administration's operations in Minnesota and beyond.

2:42Replacing him is Border Czar Tom Homan. That's a major shift after the president initially supported his top commanders as they claimed agents who killed two American citizens in Minneapolis were acting in self-defense and that the people they shot were violent agitators, even terrorists. Despite a total lack of evidence to support those claims, and widely circulated video contradicting that narrative. Homan met today with Governor Tim Walz, who said in a statement they agreed on the need for an ongoing dialogue, and that they were working on ending what the Democratic governor called a campaign of retribution against Minnesota.

3:21Well, frustration with ICE is also growing among some conservative voters and politicians. Yesterday, Republican candidate Chris Maddle, dropped out of Minnesota's gubernatorial race and trashed his own party on social media. At the end of the day, I have to look my daughters in the eye and tell them I believe I did what was right. And I am doing that today. Another Trump voter who's having a change of heart is Sergio Amesqua. He's a pastor at the Latino church Dios Habla Hoy in Minneapolis. He's been organizing volunteers to deliver food to people afraid to come out of their homes. Here's his conversation with Robin Young.

4:00And we want to hear about what you're doing, but I really have wanted to talk to you, a self-proclaimed conservative. You've told us you've voted for Trump in the past. How are you feeling in this moment? Well, disappointed. Disappointed. The way that they've been treated in our community, it's horrible. And not just the immigrant community, as you are aware of. You know, what happened to René Nicole, what happened to Alex on Saturday. It's been horrible. How many people ultimately have you had needing help because they're afraid to leave the house? And then how many volunteers are you getting?

4:37Absolutely. The first day, we got 2 ,000 families registered. That was December 2nd. Right now, we have over 28 ,000 families registered to get food. And we're not the only ones that are doing something for people. There's a lot of people doing things at a smaller scale. So we calculated that we have over 200 ,000 people locked up in their homes, hungry, sick. And we have, thank God that we have a lot of volunteers. We have over 4 ,000 volunteers active with the DHH operation here. And we're distributing 100 ,000 pounds of food weekly. Oh, jeez. And yeah, I thought it interesting too. Again, you are a conservative, but you praise the LGBTQ community.

5:19Well, you know, when I throw, you know, when we throw the word that we need help, the first ones to show up in our building were members of the LGBT community asking if they can help because this was a church. Tears come out of my eyes and I say, of course you can help. Everyone is welcoming to help. Yeah. What's stunning is many of these people that you're helping are American citizens. What are you seeing from your congregants or other residents that belies, again, as you've said, some of the things we think? Well, you know, we're helping a lot of U.S. citizens that are afraid born here, but they're Latino descendants.

5:59Or we're also helping Native Americans. We're helping veterans. We help everyone here in our church. Including, if you could, that little five-year-old boy, Liam Ramos. Yes. Who was detained by ICE. Many said that he was used as bait to draw his family. Have you heard how he is now? Because I believe he and his father are in Texas. Yeah, they're in Texas. And the family yelled. The first 24 hours, it was terrifying because the mom did not know where the baby, what the boy was. The senator, Tina Smith, found out that the baby, that the five-year-old was in the way to Texas in an airplane. We did not know whether the baby was with the dad or by himself.

6:42but it is horrible. These are the type of criminals they're arresting. Look, Pastor Masqua, this brings me back to where we started. I'm sure listeners are wondering, you were born in Mexico, you've been here 24 years, you're here legally, you are a business person. Yes. We can understand, as you have told us, that you voted for Trump because you're a business person and you had some expectations, but, you know, this is a man who campaigned on Mexicans being rapists, right? Although some might be good people. And how are you feeling about the administration behind that little boy being in Texas?

7:21Well, it feels horrible. And I'll tell you what, you know, this was the first time I bought it for him because I just wanted a common sense. And when they – I know he said those things, but the main message on the immigration was that they were going to get criminals. Obviously, as a father, you know, I have kids. I don't want rapists or killers or gay members to go be out there and making their parks insecure. But what they're doing in Minnesota is not that. You know, they show up with pictures of people. And a lot of those pictures that they put in place, they have no criminal record whatsoever.

7:57And, you know, when they cross the border, it's a civil offense. That's not makes them criminal. They're human beings. And as a Christian, they believe we're a Christian nation. That's what they say, right? We shouldn't be doing those things to families. You know, the Latino people is going in Minnesota, what the Jewish people went through in 1960 and the African-American went through and even what the Japanese went through, you know, since they're arresting legal residents, citizens. You know what they do? They grab them and within 12 hours, they take them to Texas. and if they found out their residents or citizens from the U.S., they're out there by themselves in Texas, and family are trying to help them to come in because they don't even have their IDs or their phones with them.

8:41It is horrible what we're going through. Another thing I would like to add, if you don't mind, is the following. Our protesters enter into a church on a Sunday. I'm sure you're aware of that. Sure. Okay. I'm not okay with that either. But the Latino churches are 80 % down on attendance, whether they're evangelical or whether they're Catholic. Why? ICE Asians are targeting churches and waiting for people to get out of church so they can start harassing them. Now, the administration has done nothing about it. So they're just Christians for white people, and the Latino people are not Christian enough for them to protect.

9:21It's frustrating. Well, Pastor, we're going to let you get back to your loaves and fish. Yes, absolutely. And by the way, how are you paying for this? Well, we get a lot of help from individual donations and also food banks like Second Harvest, the food group, Choice Food, Twin City for Justice. A lot of people are coming together, whether they're getting food banks or individual donations. And this is a community effort. You know, we ain't waiting for nobody to come and help us. as neighbors in Minnesota, the Minnesota Nice is out there, and people are helping. And listen, our volunteers are, some of them might be Christians, some of them might be atheists, Catholics, Muslims.

10:00We, every, all the neighborhood, all the city is coming to help. And that's, in the middle of this, that's beautiful to see. Pastor Sergio Mezcua of the Congregation of Dios Habla Hoy, God Speaks Today. Pastor, thank you so much and best to you. Appreciate it. Thank you.

10:21Well, the pastor mentioned community members coming together, donating, volunteering. One way that a lot of people have been spending their time in Minneapolis is documenting the activities of immigration agents. After the break, we'll hear from a lawyer in Minneapolis about the work of legal and civilian observers, a job Renee Macklin-Good and Alex Preddy were doing when they were killed. Stick around. Thank you.

11:19your health, your lifestyle, and your budget. And they work for you for free. Get the right life insurance for you and save more than 50 % at selectquote.com slash anytime. That's 50 % off at selectquote.com slash anytime. Observers are not protesters. Their job is to monitor and patrol their neighborhoods, just as Alex Preddy was doing, recording federal agents with his cell phone moments before he was shot dead on Saturday. We wanted to learn more about that type of work, so we called up Anna Hall, a lawyer with the Legal Rights Center in Minneapolis. She's a member of the National Lawyers Guild.

11:59And she told Scott Tong, the killing of Alex Pretty will not stop people from coming out to demonstrate or document the work of federal agents. I get the sense that people are grieving and enraged, but not discouraged from exercising their First Amendment rights. Do observers get any training on what their legal rights are, right? If a Border Patrol ICE agent confronts you in your car, detains you, puts you in handcuffs, what are you allowed to do? What are you not allowed to do? some may have received some know your rights information at some point um now or you know in the past but there's no organized effort to make that happen and so you know some some observers are encountering federal law enforcement and um you know haven't received any training of that kind and others have it really is a mix understand now there's an argument that uh in some cases observers have been interfering with the work of these agents.

13:09Is it clear what interfering means or doesn't mean? That's clear in the case law. It's clear, you know, courts have made it clear what is interference and what is not. It seems that the administration and federal agents perhaps have a different understanding of what the law requires here. And when people are standing on a street blowing a whistle, that doesn't rise to the level. When people are lawfully driving on the street, that doesn't rise to the level. How about following closely an agent's car or kind of blowing whistles in an agent's face? Minnesotans who are out in the community, you know, standing on a sidewalk blowing whistles, are engaging in constitutionally protected activity.

14:04Minnesotans who are driving on the roads their taxes pay for safely the way that would be lawful under any other circumstances are engaging in constitutionally protected activity. So if and when observers are arrested, are detained, do you interact with them? Do you explain to them what their rights are? Yeah. What we try to do is really emphasize to people both what their rights are and what they should do in the event that their rights are being violated, they're receiving pressure from law enforcement. And what we remind them is once you assert your right to remain silent, you should continue to remain silent moving forward.

14:49Anna, do you have a sense of how many observers have been detained? How many are in jail? Very few are currently in jail. I don't have an exact number for you. I would say certainly in the hundreds, mid hundreds would be my guess. Who have been detained and released? Correct. Okay. What about the law as it regards the federal agents? Are they allowed, We've seen footage to reach into a car, break windows. Are they allowed to take your phone away? When federal agents or any law enforcement execute a lawful arrest, they do typically seize property that you have on you, including phones. What we are seeing here is that ICE agents are breaking windows of observers with whom they've had no other interaction, who are not impeding law enforcement activity and dragging them out of cars and taking their phones.

15:59There's a narrative, I think, that Minnesotans are engaging in violence. Violence is happening when ICE agents engage Minnesotans and not the other way around. Since Saturday's killing of Alex Preddy, do you worry about a chilling effect that individuals in the Twin Cities will decide, you know what, it's not worth it? Absolutely. And I think that's the goal. I think the goal here is to chill citizens who otherwise might be exercising their First Amendment rights to observe and protest and voice their dissent. That's Anna Hall, community defense lawyer for the Legal Rights Center in Minneapolis in Minnesota.

16:48She's also a member of the National Lawyers Guild. Anna, thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me.

17:01One more conversation for you on today's show. The killing of two people at the hands of federal officials has Princeton University historian Julian Zelizer, thinking back to May 4th, 1970, when National Guard troops opened fire and killed four students protesting the Vietnam War at Kent State University in Ohio. Robin Young explores the parallels and what we can learn from history after the break.

17:35We spoke yesterday with Senator Elizabeth Warren about events in Minneapolis, and she spoke of seeing someone lying dead on the ground, meaning Alex Preddy. But that threw many of us back to the Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young song about four dead in Ohio, the four students protesting the Vietnam War at Kent State, shot and killed by National Guard troops. Julian Zelizer is a Princeton historian. His latest piece is titled, What Kent State Taught the Country About State Violence. We love when you come in with thoughts like that. Hi, Julian. Hi, nice to be back. Yeah, and disclosure, your article features the iconic photo of a young man, a young woman rather, leaning over a dead student.

18:14That was Jeffrey Miller. I've spoken about this before. He was the son of my school secretary, a good friend of my brother. But I'm not the only one hearing this echo. Take us back. In the 60s, we watched peaceful civil rights protesters be attacked by police, especially in the South. Then anti-war protesters attacked. Nixon was president. What was happening in 1970 that brought more students out? Well, this followed Nixon going on television and announcing that the United States was going into Cambodia, expanding the war in Vietnam, even though Nixon had promised to bring it to an end. And this causes nationwide protests that kind of reignites the anti-war movement, especially among students.

19:00And Kent State University is one of the places where that weekend, the weekend after Nixon speaks, you see protests on the streets. Yeah, well, there was some destruction and some windows broken downtown, but otherwise, you know, peaceful. Then Ohio's Governor James Rhodes called the National Guard to Kent State. He was running for Senate. And before the protest, he blamed radicals for unrest. They're worse than the brown shirt and the communist element and also the Knight Riders and the Vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America. And I want to say that they're not going to take over a campus.

19:38Julian, talk about language used then and now. I mean, many Americans then knew, no, this was Jeffrey Miller. I mean, you know, not what you described. no i mean uh the governor tries in many ways to inflame the situation rather than calming and he goes after the student protesters and he blames them for being radicals he blames them for being dangerous he he makes the protesters who had largely been non-violent and non-disruptive into the enemy as opposed to the issue itself which was the war in cambodia so that's the setting before the next protest takes place on May 4th. Yeah. And after the killings, Nixon releases a statement saying, this should remind us all once again that when dissent turns to violence, it invites tragedy.

20:25Now, you know, after the killing of Alex Preddy, Trump's top advisor, Stephen Miller, called him a domestic terrorist with no evidence of that. Just your thoughts on what we can learn from that. Well, there's echoes of the past. Obviously, in Kent State, we're talking about the Ohio National Guard. But there you had a governor using rhetoric and a president using rhetoric that, again, quickly blamed protesters rather than the authorities who were engaged in the shooting. And also later we learned that the National Guard, most of them didn't really know what to do or what the orders were. And that kind of chaos leads to these kinds of results.

21:07Let me ask you about that because many of us, especially as we matured, thought, wait a minute, those guardsmen were also 19. Why were they even there, armed? Nobody knows where the first shot came from, who fired it. Should Americans now maybe, even those in fury over what's happening and want people held responsible, let that happen, but maybe look beyond troops in Minneapolis and ask who put them there? Well, yes, I think that's the real question. The troops themselves are an issue, and that's where the threat is now coming from. But ultimately, it's a policy decision. In the case of Kent State, it was a decision by the governor to send the National Guard there and to have them set up the way they were.

21:56And now we're talking about a federal policy coming from the administration. So this is not just about the ICE officers and agents. We're all the Department of Homeland Security personnel. It's about the administration. And the buck stops there, and that's where the focus should be. And ultimately, that's the only way to really bring this to an end. Julian Zelizer, thank you so much. We love when you visit with us. Historian at Princeton, thank you so much. Thank you. Robin mentioned her interview yesterday with Senator Elizabeth Warren. If you missed that, scroll back in the feed to yesterday's episode of Here and Now Anytime and listen to it now.

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