Why does ICE want to use electronic shock gloves?

0:00Support for Here and Now Anytime comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. Based on what we've seen from the way officers lose their temper and behave in public recently, it concerns me deeply that officers might use these gloves inappropriately. After deadly shootings this year, ICE is now giving its agents gloves that deliver electric shocks.

0:47It's Thursday, August 13th, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. I'm Kalyani Saxena. Today on the show, we'll get an update on the Haitian community in Ohio. After hundreds of thousands of Haitians in the U.S. lost their temporary protected status last month. I am afraid, but I cannot let it overcome and not to speak. Because at the end of the day, there should be a person who is the voice of the voiceless. Also, we'll zoom over to Alaska and touch base with Here and Now's own Peter O'Dowd. He's speaking to residents as waters rise in Juneau from a glacial flood. We know it's coming.

1:31It's like a slow-moving bullet. You can see it, but you don't know when it's going to hit. you just don't know. The unknown is crazy stressful. But first, after a year of making headlines for using deadly force against civilians, U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement is planning to equip its agents with gloves that can deliver painful electric shocks. Yes, you heard that right. The Department of Homeland Security plans to spend up to$20 million on these new gloves, and it's calling them de-escalation devices. Ryan Schwenk is an ice whistleblower who previously trained new officers. He spoke with Scott Tong about the new gloves.

2:16These gloves have, I understand, a button to deliver an electric shock, and videos on the manufacturer's Instagram page show people falling to the floor screaming when they're shocked. In your view, are these a good idea? So these are not necessarily a good idea in the way that ICE is likely to deploy. I've done a lot of reading on these, and in very limited circumstances, for instance, in jails or situations where there's a lot of control over how they're used, these are a viable device, but not in the most likely scenarios where ICE is going to use them. Yeah, well, they're described as de-escalation devices.

2:54I wonder if you can kind of contextualize How are ICE agents trained to de-escalate and how might these fit in or not fit in? So ICE officers receive a limited amount of training of de-escalation. It's not anywhere near the level other law enforcement agencies receive. These gloves are primarily used in up-close, hand-to-hand situations. And they're described as de-escalation because essentially what they do is they deliver an immense amount of pain to a small location. and that causes the person who is being touched by the gloves to fall to the ground. And in theory, that means that they deescalate because the officer doesn't have to use hard techniques, you know, a baton, a chokehold, an arm bar.

3:37They can disable the person just by using the glove. I understand. Now, the manufacturer's materials that accompany the products say these gloves should not be used to control verbal defiance or for belligerent people or for punishment or torture. As a former trainer for new ICE officers, are you confident that they will be properly trained to use these? In order for them to use these clubs, they're going to have to go through a whole new training program. There's going to have to be a class developed. There's going to have to be something put in place to make sure the officers know when and how to use them.

4:13But based on what we've seen from the way officers lose their temper and behave in public recently, it concerns me deeply that officers might use these gloves inappropriately. Yeah. So, I mean, is there a scenario you worry about? Yes. So from what I understand of these gloves, they're not likely to cause permanent injury or death. The mechanism doesn't seem to allow for that. But it does allow an officer to hurt someone. And we've seen officers who've lost their temper with people in crowds. We've seen officers lose their temper with bystanders who protest or object to the officer's actions. And I can absolutely see a scenario where an officer deploys these gloves against someone who's absolutely unjustified in order to induce pain to stop someone from yelling at them or to stop somebody from complaining.

5:06One of the big fears I have is these gloves essentially leave no record behind when they're used. Right. So an officer could hurt somebody with it and the person could say, hey, he shot me three or four times. And there's not really proof of that other than kind of an internal tracking record the glove has. Yeah, right. I understand. Interesting question. Just briefly, I want to talk about the broader deportation effort in May. White House official Stephen Miller told Fox News of a target to have 3000 ICE arrests a day. than the administration last week, denied having a target in a court filing.

5:43What pressure do you sense ICE being under now? I think they're under enormous pressure to get those 3 ,000 removals a day, right? ICE didn't go to the trouble of buying all of these... ICE didn't go to the trouble buying all these detention facilities, these warehouses they're converting, or the airplanes they've bought, not true of people. There's an immense amount of pressure to do it, and it shows up in the way the agents enforce the law and the way they act with the public. They're rushed to get the job done because they have to hit metrics. Yeah. And then these gloves, I mean, do you sense that, and this was in a public notice because ICE wants to talk about this publicly?

6:24Yeah, I think ICE wants the public to know they have these, these essentially these pain tools as a way of creating more fear. In practice, I doubt that officers will ever use these very often. It's very limited circumstances where they're usable. I think this is more about sending a message than actually equipping officers with a new tool. Yeah. We've been talking to Ryan Schwenk, former attorney and trainer with ICE. Ryan, thanks so much. Thank you all. Great day.

6:56Coming up next, deportation and arrest are looming over hundreds of thousands of Haitian immigrants in the U.S. after the Trump administration ended their temporary protected status last month. In Blue Ash, Ohio, some Haitians are now being forced to wear ankle monitors. After the break, Scott Tong speaks with Viles Dorsonville, the executive director of the nonprofit Haitian Support Center in Springfield, Ohio, about what the community is going through.

7:35In Blue Ash, Ohio, not far from Springfield, Ohio, the ICE office is requiring Haitian immigrants to check in and put on ankle monitors. Last week, the U.S. government ended temporary protected status TPS for 350 ,000 Haitians, clearing the way for their potential deportation. Hundreds have shown up outside the field office in protest and to support those affected. And that includes Viles Dorsonville. He's executive director of the non-profit Haitian Support Center in Springfield, Ohio. And he joins us. Viles, welcome back to the program. Thank you for having me. Viles, what are you seeing at this ICE office?

8:15I understand it's not far from Springfield, Ohio. Yeah, basically what I've been seeing at the ICE office is folks who've been receiving letters and ask them to go for that type of check-in. And when they got there, they are being interviewed, asking them questions about themselves and their families and offer them$2 ,600 to go home, even though I haven't heard any people who have been receiving that money. Once they get there, they came out with this ankle shackle, so ankle monitors on the feet. Ankle monitors. So everyone comes out with an ankle monitor, as best you know? Yes, except if there is a pregnant woman, they put it on her wrist instead of putting it on her ankle.

9:01And is the idea that that means they can't go far? They can't go far and they have to control the actions on a daily basis. And it's$2 ,600. Is that basically an offer? If you decide, if you leave the country willingly, the U.S. government will give you$2 ,600. That's the deal being offered? Yes, and most of the time folks would have agreed to take it, but they know that the gang members back home, they're all over the social media, and that would put them in more danger if they take that money to go back home because they will know that they have that$2 ,600 and they will be automatically a target when they get home with that money.

9:45Well, face huge risk from so many of the gangs that control much of the capital, yeah, Port-au-Prince. I understand you've been getting up every morning very early to drive down to this ICE facility to help these people being called in. What do they need? What can you provide? Basically, as a community center, we make sure that we provide them with transportation and we provide them with interpretation. and also we try to be there with them just to support them, psychologically speaking, because they are very terrified going to those appointments. Of course they are. Can you talk a little bit about the lives of these individuals called into these meetings?

10:33How long in general have they been in the U.S.? What is their job and family life? Basically, they have been in the U.S. some of them have been in the U.S. more than five years, two years, or three years. Some of them live with their kids. They have a very steady job, and they are still working. And they give them a paper if they got pulled over by police officers to show the police that they're not criminals, even though they have that ankle monitor on. So those of peaceful folks who just like being here, They go to work on a daily basis, but they are being targeted. And those people, some of them just confused because they don't understand the system.

11:26And they know that they used to put ankle shackles on criminals. So now they're asking questions why they put those ankle shackles on them. But we don't have an answer to their questions. Right. They're not convicted of a crime. Yeah. Viles, you are Haitian, and I understand you are a TPS holder. TPS status, of course, ended last week. So what is it like for you to balance this work that you're doing for other Haitians and to cope with the future for yourself? Basically, I've been helping my folks, but I've been fighting for myself too because I'm on the same boat. I used to be a TPS holder. I'm not anymore.

12:14And I'm just now an asylum seeker. So I think that the workload that I have on my back in the community is very important. and I am doing it for people I know who are in danger because I know if they return home, how that will look like for them, including myself. So when I do that, I do it for us. I just do it for them, but for us as Haitians because we are on the same boat. I don't know what the future will hold for us, but our responsibility is to keep checking on each other and support each other as much as we can. I'm curious, given the risk you face, why are you speaking publicly to people like us?

13:02I can't let fear overcome me because I am in this for all of us. I am afraid, but I cannot let it overcome me not to speak because at the end of the day, there should be a person who is the voice of the voiceless. And this person happens to be me. So I have to do it even though I know that I'm at risk too, but I don't have any other choice. We've been talking to Viles Dorsonville, who runs the Haitian Support Center in Springfield, Ohio. Viles, thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you so much for everything.

13:48After the break, billions of gallons of water are rushing through Juneau, Alaska, thanks to ice melt from a glacier near the city. Now, this melting does happen every year, but it's getting worse and posing serious danger to nearby homes and residents. Here and now, Peter O'Dowd is in Juneau, and he spoke with Indira about what he's seeing there. That's coming up in just a moment.

14:24Alaska emergency officials are warning today that ice melt from a glacier high above the capital of Juneau could pose a threat to homes and businesses in the inundation zone. Some 5 ,000 people have been urged to evacuate ahead of the flooding. Despite the warnings, Juneau resident Ann Lynn says she's staying put. We know it's coming. It's like a slow-moving bullet. You can see it, but you don't know when it's going to hit. You don't know if it's going to be a hit or a miss. You just don't know. The unknown is crazy stressful. Here in Now's Peter O'Dowd joins us with more. Welcome, Peter. And what is it like to be in a flood zone in Alaska in August?

15:07Well, Indira, I am in the flood zone right now. I can't see the river. Roads are closed. and city officials say it's just too dangerous to get anywhere near this river, but I can hear it. And that is sort of strange because it sounds like there is a highway roaring on the other side of the trees. And I can tell you there are no highways right here. So the river is rising. It has been coming up steadily all through yesterday overnight. And it is now, I'm looking at the live stream of the videos that are set up along the river. It is swollen, it is fast moving, and it looks ominous to tell you the truth because there is a lot of power and danger behind that flowing water.

15:50Now this particular flooding phenomenon apparently happens every summer. Explain to us what it's called and is it usually catastrophic or is this year worse than usual? Yeah, it's called a glacier lake outburst flood or a glough if you want to call it that. and it has been happening every year in Juneau since 2011. But the thing is, it never really got anyone's attention until 2023 when there was a major shift in these floods. They started to become incredibly serious in 2023. The river was peeling people's homes into the water. In 2024, 300 homes were inundated. And in some cases, it was with water that was six feet deep just pouring into people's houses.

16:36It was a total disaster. And then in 2025, the city and the Army Corps of Engineers put up some barriers along the river. And last year, it just barely held. I mean, the water was lapping up against the top of the HESCO barriers, but there was no significant damage last year. So people are holding their breath right now as they see the water rise on the Mendenhall River and just hoping and praying that the barriers hold this year. Why has this been happening year after year for the last decade and a half? Is it from climate change or what? Well, the scientists I've been talking to say the mechanism of the flood is not really related to climate change.

17:16But what I can tell you is that the glaciers are thinning, the glaciers are retreating, and the melting glacier is creating the water that fills up this reservoir that then releases all at once. And so in that sense, yes, the warming temperatures, the warming climate, climate change have caused the conditions for these floods. Now, why they've gotten so bad in recent years, that's a little bit of a complicated question I've asked. It has a lot to do with the conditions of the ice and how things move. And scientists are working really hard to try to figure exactly the science behind the way these floods happen.

17:53Well, it's a scary situation to be in. If we're talking about 2 ,000 homes and businesses at risk, how are people doing? Well, I think people are concerned. They're hopeful that the barriers will hold. Some people have chosen to evacuate. Others have decided to stay put and to stay with their neighbors and to stay with their loved ones at home. But I think there is a sense that every single year now, people know this is going to happen. It creates a great amount of anxiety. You know, imagine being in Florida and knowing that a hurricane is going to hit your house every year. I have lived through that.

18:31Yeah. But every year, you know, without fail. Or, you know, if you're in Oklahoma and you just know that a tornado is going to whip through your neighborhood every single year, that's what folks in Juneau are dealing with. And it creates a great amount of fear. And I spoke with a resident named Don Habiger who spent$200 ,000 building a giant berm around his house to protect it. What you're seeing is five industrial-sized pumps that are run off of two generators that are up over on the berm there. They are estimated to take about 1 ,500 gallons per minute out of here if necessary. You're fighting like hell.

19:10Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, why would you not fight for your life and your home? and your investment. Wow. All right, Peter, you and Don are both in this inundation zone. People don't want to live like this forever if this kind of flooding is continuing every year. What kind of long-term solutions are being discussed? Well, that's exactly right. People are angry and they want a solution. They're desperate for a solution. And that's where this story gets really interesting. Alaska is known as a mining state. There are miners here who have raised their hands and said, listen, federal government, we think we have a solution for you.

19:52We think we can drill a tunnel into the mountain that would access the basin where all the water is collecting. And this tunnel would act as like a drain. And so the water would come out of the tunnel and prevent it from spilling over. And it's expensive. It would take some time, but the mining community thinks it can happen. And so the federal government is listening. The federal government says, you know, once this flood is over, we're going to start collecting ideas from the community to see how we can create what's called an enduring solution so that, you know, every year for the next 10, 20, 30 years, the residents of Juneau aren't facing this terrible flood.

20:30That's my Here and Now colleague, Peter O'Dowd, reporting from Juneau, Alaska, where he is positioned near an ice melt from a glacier high above the Capitol that could pose a threat to homes and businesses from the flooding. Peter, thank you so much and stay safe. Thanks, Indira. Here and Now Anytime comes from NPR and WBUR Boston. Today's stories were produced by Hafsa Kodeshi, Jessica Carissa, and Ashley Locke. Today's editors were Michael Scotto, Thomas Danielian, and Alan Price. Technical direction from Caleb Green, Matt Reed, and Nick Dussault. Chris Bentley wrote the theme music with Mike Moschetto and Max Liebman.

21:13Our digital producers are Alison Hagen and Grace Griffin. Here and now's executive producer is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.

21:26Thank you.