In short
The episode examines why political violence is increasing in the U.S., then pivots to a CNN investigation into drug-facilitated rape networks online, and ends with Florida’s congressional redistricting fight.
Guest
Jacob Ware, Georgetown University professor and co-author of God, Guns and Sedition, studies domestic terrorism and political violence.
Key claims
political violence is rising alongside a “heightened threat environment,” with record federal charges for threats against public officials; existential rhetoric (“no next election”) raises risk; authorities should expand counterterrorism investigative capacity and improve event security. Examples: the White House Correspondents’ Dinner assassination attempt by Cole Allen; assaults on Ilhan Omar; Ware cites data from University of Nebraska Omaha.
Guest
Saskia Van Dorn, CNN Paris correspondent, reports the sexual-assault investigation.
Key claims
men trade “sleep” rape videos/photos as “currency” on porn sites and Telegram; victims include Zoe Watts (sentenced to 11 years for her attacker). Examples: Motherless.com, Telegram group with ~1,000 members, and the “eyecheck” method.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOPolitical Violence Context
0:57 to 2:14
Exploring recent incidents of political violence and implications for public safety.
“Today on the show, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis wants to redraw the state's congressional map, a move that could give Republicans four extra seats.”
Jacob Ware on Political Violence Trends
2:14 to 4:42
Discussion with Jacob Ware about the history and current state of political violence in the U.S.
“He studies domestic terrorism and political violence and teaches at Georgetown University.”
Rhetoric and Its Impact on Violence
4:42 to 6:09
Examining how political rhetoric contributes to a climate of violence and polarization.
“It's no longer something that I can do and look my family in the eye and say that I can guarantee their safety.”
Preventing Political Violence
6:09 to 7:26
Jacob Ware discusses measures that can be taken to prevent political violence leading up to elections.
“What should authorities be doing to prevent an uptick in political violence?”
Redistricting in Florida
7:26 to 8:20
Overview of Florida's congressional redistricting efforts and political implications.
“Coming up next, a number of states are redrawing congressional maps.”
Legal and Political Challenges of Redistricting
8:20 to 13:43
Discussion on the legality of redistricting maps and their potential impact on elections.
“Today in Florida, state lawmakers begin a special session to consider new congressional maps just unveiled by Republican Governor Ron DeSantis.”
CNN Investigation on Sexual Assault
13:43 to 14:08
Reporting on a troubling CNN investigation into men drugging and assaulting their partners.
“Coming up, a CNN investigation found men across the globe exchanging photos of their wives and sharing advice on how to drug and rape them.”
Uncovering a Disturbing Online Network
14:08 to 18:41
Learn about a CNN investigation into online communities promoting sexual violence through drugging partners.
“in cases where men drug their partners and commit sex acts.”
Zoe Watts: A Survivor's Story
18:41 to 21:48
Hear the harrowing account of Zoe Watts, who faced betrayal and violence from her husband.
“And on the other side, your team's reporting led you to multiple wives' victims, including a woman, Zoe Watts, in England.”
The Challenges of Addressing Online Abuse
21:48 to 24:47
Discuss the systemic issues in combating online sexual violence and the role of tech companies.
“There are lawmakers that are looking into that.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Jacob Ware:This message comes from KeyBank. Scaling a successful business takes more than just grit. It takes the right relationship. KeyBank pairs the right strategy with the right financial tools to keep your business moving forward. KeyBank opens doors. More at key.com slash B2B. WBUR Podcasts. Boston. We are in a heightened threat environment. and public office today comes with a degree of danger and risk.
0:34Romy Ellenbogen:Authorities deemed last weekend's shooting an assassination attempt on the president. What's fueling political violence in this country?
0:50Romy Ellenbogen:It's Tuesday, April 28th, and this is Here and Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. and Chico Teori. Today on the show, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis wants to redraw the state's congressional map, a move that could give Republicans four extra seats. But it raises some legal questions. The Florida Constitution does have that ban on redrawing a district with a political party in mind, with political favor in mind. And a CNN investigation unveils a vast underground network of men drugging and raping their wives.
1:27Jacob Ware:Photos or videos of your wife or partner are treated as currency. This is a way of making sure you can trust the other person that is like-minded. So it's like, hey, can I trust you? Send me a picture of your wife.
1:41Romy Ellenbogen:But first, we're learning new details about a California man, Cole Allen, who has been charged with trying to assassinate the president at the White House Correspondents' Dinner. He also faces federal gun charges after attempting to storm the event with multiple weapons. In the days since the shooting, the White House press secretary has blamed Democrats and journalists for what she calls divisive rhetoric that she says is fueling political violence in the U.S. Is this something new or part of a much longer story in American politics? Jacob Ware has some thoughts. He studies domestic terrorism and political violence and teaches at Georgetown University.
2:20Romy Ellenbogen:He's also the co-author of God, Guns and Sedition. Here's his conversation with Indira Lakshmanon. So when something like this happens, it can feel like things are getting worse, especially on the back of two other attempted assassinations against President Trump since the 2024 campaign. But the U.S. has a long history of political violence with assassinations dating back to the early 1800s. So is this moment actually different?
2:47Jacob Ware:I would say yes and no. I mean, first of all, of course, our country has a long history of domestic terrorism, and we felt that very strongly over the last 15 years or so. At the same time, we're in a heightened threat environment. That much is clear. I'll quote some data that comes out of the University of Nebraska, Omaha, which says that in 2024, we had a record number of federal charges for threats against public officials. We broke a record again in 2025, and we're on track to break that record once again in 2026. So obviously, there is a growing drumbeat of violence, and I expect that to get more serious as we approach the midterms.
3:29Jacob Ware:Political violence is always more likely in politically polarized moments.
3:33Romy Ellenbogen:Well, some American politicians are saying that the risk to their safety may not be worth it. Is there a bigger risk that comes with running for office or holding office right now?
3:44Jacob Ware:Absolutely. And that's one of the really unfortunate things about this moment. I'm actually always really eager to dismantle what I see as a mischaracterization that there have now been three assassination attempts on President Trump, because the reality is there have been many more, many more plots against him alongside repeated assassination plots against Democratic leaders. Usually those get stopped at an early moment. There have been three times where a government has actually showed up on scene. We are in a heightened threat environment and public office today comes with a degree of danger and risk.
4:17Jacob Ware:I'll remind the listeners of just a few months ago, there was an assault on Congresswoman Ilhan Omar that was quickly, of course, forgotten about. And last year, of course, there were multiple assassinations of prominent political figures. The really sad reality, the really unfortunate part of this is that we know there have been multiple political leaders that have been actually pushed out of the system that have determined that this is not worth the risk to me and my family. And this is no longer a safe job. It's no longer something that I can do and look my family in the eye and say that I can guarantee their safety.
4:51Jacob Ware:And that is a real it's causing a real brain drain in our political system.
4:56Romy Ellenbogen:What role does heated rhetoric from Republicans, Democrats, or even the president play?
5:01Jacob Ware:I think it's creating a more polarized and divisive moment. One of the key risk factors for violence, especially around elections, is existential language. So when you have politicians who say things like, if we don't win this election, you won't have another election in this country, that dramatically raises the risk of violence because terrorism and assassination tend to come when people feel that they can no longer exercise their views through the legitimate political system. And that's certainly what we saw in the manifesto written by this gunman who attacked the White House correspondence dinner.
5:36Jacob Ware:It's incumbent on both Democrats and Republicans to turn that temperature down. But what I do not accept is rhetoric that says that Democrats are somehow more to blame for this. I'll remind you just a few months ago, President Trump posting on Truth Social that it was good that former FBI director Robert Mueller had died because he could no longer hurt people. I mean, that is glorifying death and celebrating the death of a perceived political rival. That is totally antithetical to our democracy and to our system and to a more peaceful and prosperous society.
6:08Romy Ellenbogen:Jacob, as we head into the midterms, there will necessarily be more heated rhetoric based on the pattern we see in this country. What should authorities be doing to prevent an uptick in political violence?
6:24Jacob Ware:Well, I think the real challenge is that politicians and public speakers unfortunately need to assume that there are assassination threats all around them. So as you are preparing for an event, as you are preparing for the World Cup, as we're preparing for the 250th anniversary celebrations, we need to assume that there is a level of risk and danger. And law enforcement needs to adjust to that reality and not hope that things will be OK. That is just the simple reality of our situation. So I think larger perimeters, stronger scanning, vetting of individuals who are planning to attend, but also we need to dramatically scale up our counterterrorism investigative power.
7:10Jacob Ware:And unfortunately, that was largely eroded in the first year of the Trump administration through cuts at various agencies, as well as firings over January 6th. that needs to be reversed in order to build a stronger capacity to counter these forms of violence.
7:25Romy Ellenbogen:Jacob Ware studies American political violence, and he's the co-author of God, Guns and Sedition. Thank you so much, Jacob.
7:32Jacob Ware:Thank you for having me.
7:40Romy Ellenbogen:Coming up next, a number of states are redrawing congressional maps. Florida's governor wants to do the same, but it may be more complicated for the Sunshine State. Learn why after the break.
8:20Romy Ellenbogen:Today in Florida, state lawmakers begin a special session to consider new congressional maps just unveiled by Republican Governor Ron DeSantis. It would give Republicans up to four extra seats in the U.S. House of Representatives. Romi Ellenbogen is a reporter with the Tampa Bay Times, and she joined Scott Tong from the state capitol in Tallahassee.
8:42Jacob Ware:So right now, Republicans control 20 out of 28 congressional seats in Florida. How would these new proposed maps change that? So the proposal from Governor DeSantis' office would have 24 seats for Republicans compared to the current 20,
9:00Romy Ellenbogen:leaving only four seats for Democrats, you know, if things play out based on 2024 voting trends.
9:07Jacob Ware:Now, the governor, Ron DeSantis, is pushing lawmakers to approve these maps. Are the lawmakers, especially the Republicans, are they on board or no?
9:16Romy Ellenbogen:So it's an interesting question. Sort of your everyday lawmaker has been pretty quiet about answering questions about redistricting. They've been warned by legislative leaders about the long history of litigation when it comes to redistricting. So a lot of them have stayed mum. But the legislative leaders, the House Speaker has said he's interested in redistricting, and the Senate president has also seemed open to accepting the governor's map. And both of those should hold committee meetings today where they'll first hear the plan presented by the governor's office.
9:48Jacob Ware:You mentioned litigation, Romy. We should note that the state constitution in Florida was changed years ago and that it bans maps that have the intent to favor a political party. Can you talk more about the constitution and the questions it raises?
10:06Romy Ellenbogen:Yeah, absolutely. You know, the Florida Constitution does have that ban on redrawing a district with a political party in mind, with political favor in mind. That same provision, which was adopted by voters in 2010, also says you can't redraw districts to disfavor, you know, a racial minority, a language minority. Interestingly, you know, a lot of people have pointed, obviously, to that partisan part and said, well, these maps are blatantly unconstitutional, right? Look at the Florida Constitution bans partisan gerrymandering. But the governor's office, the governor's general counsel, in a letter two lawmakers sent yesterday, essentially argued that the whole amendment in the Constitution that bars that can't stand because, you know, their theory is that drawing a map based on race is unconstitutional and that the U.S.
11:00Romy Ellenbogen:Supreme Court will soon affirm that. And if one part of that language around redistricting is unconstitutional, the whole thing has to go.
11:10Jacob Ware:So the argument has something to do with there are court actions that have happened, there are court rulings, there's an ongoing court case at the Supreme Court, and we, the state of Florida, are reacting to something happening in the judicial system rather than partisanship. Is that the argument?
11:27Romy Ellenbogen:Yes, exactly. They're saying we essentially know how the Supreme Court is going to rule in this case. We've looked at our own court ruling. That is what's motivating us, not politics, not the president.
11:38Jacob Ware:Now, some analysts I read suggest these maps might backfire on Republicans, that they could dilute safely red districts. Can you talk about that?
11:50Romy Ellenbogen:Yeah, I think that was definitely a conversation before the maps were released. We saw in some special elections in March, Democrats flip Republican seats in Florida. But some of these districts have been drawn to get more read. Some of the places that I think Representative Jeffries were eyeing might not be as easy to flip as they were before. On the other hand, some of these newly drawn districts are read by much slimmer margins. In Tampa Bay, Congressional District 14 is one of those. The 14th District has long been held by Representative Kathy Castor. And that's now a Republican seat. But in a good year for Democrats, they would be able to flip that.
12:30Romy Ellenbogen:It does make it more competitive for Republicans.
12:33Jacob Ware:Yeah, I understand. And so then from the perspective of the Democrats, right now they hold eight seats. If these maps go through, they might have four or five or six. That's kind of the early picture here.
12:46Romy Ellenbogen:Yeah. So, you know, ultimately it sort of brings Florida, right? If Democrats really perform much better than they have previously, it could bring Florida back to where we are now prior to redistricting.
12:57Jacob Ware:And as far as this legislative session, what are you going to be paying attention to? What are you anticipating?
13:04Romy Ellenbogen:Yeah, I mean, one of the things I'm eager to hear today is that lawmakers have so far not offered their insight, their opinion on what they think of redistricting. Today will really be the first time that they acknowledge, right, if they think these maps are appropriate, if they think these maps are fair, if they're, you know, eager to go ahead, if they have qualms. It also will be the first time that the governor's office answers questions about how they drafted these maps, how, you know, they came up with these boundaries. And I think understanding how they drew it better helps us understand, right, this final product that we're looking at.
13:37Jacob Ware:We've been talking to Romy Ellenbogen, Tallahassee correspondent with the Tampa Bay Times. Romy, thanks very much.
13:44Romy Ellenbogen:Thank you.
Read the full transcript
13:49Romy Ellenbogen:Coming up, a CNN investigation found men across the globe exchanging photos of their wives and sharing advice on how to drug and rape them. That's after the break.
14:07Romy Ellenbogen:This next story is about the difficult topic of sexual assault. in cases where men drug their partners and commit sex acts. Two years ago, a high-profile case in France convicted Dominique Pellico of drugging his wife repeatedly and letting more than 70 men assault her. A new investigation from CNN finds more cases, including that of Zoe Watts in the United Kingdom.
14:31Jacob Ware:He reeled off a list of his wrongdoings to me as if it was a shopping list. I've done this, this, this, this, this, and this. I've been using our sun-sleeping medication to put in your last cup of tea at night to tie you down, take photographs, and rape you.
14:49Romy Ellenbogen:CNN's team uncovered an online world where men post and sell these videos and share advice on how to carry this out. Saskia Van Dorn is CNN's Paris correspondent. Here's her conversation with Scott.
15:02Jacob Ware:Your team started this investigation on a pornography site where men are posting videos, having sex with partners who are drugged, who appear unconscious. It led you to a chat group, as I understand it. Tell me about that chat group. Yeah, so our investigation began when we created this male persona and we got onto this porn site called Motherless. It's a very popular porn site that has over 80 million visits, you know, a month last month in March and whose core audience happens to be in the US. And we began seeing what was entitled sleep content. And essentially, these are videos where women appear asleep or unconscious while men carry out sex acts on them.
15:50Jacob Ware:And there are lots of different hashtags, lots of different categories to find this kind of material. One popular hashtag we found was called eyecheck. And it's a way of proving a woman is asleep. So in these videos, a man will lift up the woman's eyelid to show that she's unresponsive and sedated. And then he'll carry out sex acts on her. And so we were on this one profile, which had a link to a private telegram group. And when we entered, there were a thousand members. And that was a space where everything was happening in real time. and men from around the world were exchanging tips on how to drug and rape their partners.
16:32Jacob Ware:And your team had an online profile, and I understand you started chatting with a man in Poland. What were the exchanges like? Yeah, it's important to understand that not only on Motherless, on this porn site, but also on the Telegram group, that photos or videos of your wife or partner are treated as currency. See, this is a way of making sure you can trust the other person, that the other person is like-minded. So it's like, hey, can I trust you? Send me a picture of your wife. And we couldn't go that far because, of course, we weren't going to create a fake picture. So we stayed as journalists.
17:11Jacob Ware:And so conversations will quickly go cold. But then there was this Polish user called Piotr. and he would send me messages showing me pictures of his wife, videos of his wife, and it felt like he was just very happy showing her off and not getting much in return. And then he told me that he had been drugging her and raping her. So he would tell me the types of drugs that he was using to put her to sleep, what he wanted to do to her once she was sedated. And we felt that it was very important as part of the investigation to be able to confirm that this man was real because all of these users are hiding behind pseudonyms.
17:52Jacob Ware:And so we wanted to, you know, go to Poland and see him in the flesh. And so at first, using my undercover persona, I tried to get him to agree to meet me in a bar. He said no. And then he let slip that he was going to be at a party. and so we we arrived there and he came with his wife i recognized them both instantly it was a very difficult moment we'd of course had many conversations with the editorial team before to discuss how we would react you know were we going to confront him were we going to speak to her and in the end we felt that we didn't want to put her life in danger we didn't know how he was going to react.
18:35Jacob Ware:So once we confirmed his identity, we passed our findings on to the Polish police. Wow. And on the other side, your team's reporting led you to multiple wives' victims, including a woman, Zoe Watts, in England. Can you tell us her story? Yes. So one of the survivors we spoke to, Zoe Watts, she had been married for 16 years. And And one day after church, he comes home and he confesses to her and says, I have been using our son's sleeping medication to put in your cup of tea at night. And once you're asleep, I tie you down, I rape you and I take pictures of you. And she told us how hard it was to grasp what he had been doing to her because she loved him.
19:24Jacob Ware:She trusted him implicitly. She had had four children with him. She thought they were going to grow old together. so it was really hard for her to accept that not only had he betrayed her but he also committed a crime against her and of course she knew that by pressing charges it would mean he would be locked up for a long time the children would lose their father they would grow up with a reputation they would know what he had done to their mother and that was just this emotional context that she was wrestling with that made it very difficult for her to first go and press charges. But of course, eventually she did with the help of her family.
20:03Jacob Ware:And he's now, he's been sentenced to 11 years in prison. You know, I've now, now I've been covering this for quite some time. And since the investigation aired, many survivors have been in touch. And some of them have said, have admitted, You know, I think this is happening, but I just can't bring myself to even confront it because I know what this will mean for the family. I know what this will mean, you know, for the future. And I'm just not ready. I'm just not ready to do that yet. And this, you're describing this very understandable reluctance. What does that mean then for the possibility of revealing this activity, shutting down these websites and chat groups?
20:47Is that a realistic aspiration here?
20:50Jacob Ware:The outpouring has been incredible since this investigation has aired. And I think there are a lot of people out there who are shocked and horrified that this has been taking place. And it's not on the dark web. You know, the porn site I mentioned to you, anybody can access it. And I think it has just been proven that these tech companies are essentially turning a blind eye to the scale of non-consensual images and videos that are being shared on their platforms. And we're not the first, Scott, to have reported on this. There are journalists in Germany, in Canada and elsewhere. And yet this website has continued to operate.
21:35Jacob Ware:But since our investigation was published, we did meet with some UK lawmakers who are now actively examining the role of platforms like this and whether current laws are strong enough to hold them accountable. I know that there's now a wider question about the role of algorithms. There are lawmakers that are looking into that. How can algorithms amplify extreme material? And then finally, there are several petitions that are calling for motherless to be T-platformed. but I think it's that perennial problem of these platforms will argue that they are not responsible for the content that is being published and that when they when they are alerted to it they'll take it down but you know I think in the case of motherless of this website we did see some efforts for example in the search bar at one point you could no longer search sleeping and yet sleep was still very much searchable.
22:29Jacob Ware:I check, you could still find tens of thousands of videos. Saskia, you told us a core user group of one of these websites, motherless.com, is in the United States. Are U.S. authorities doing anything about this? I know that there are several representatives who have tweeted about it. So they have seen the investigation. I think that they are curious to see how Motherless operates. I know that, for example, on this Telegram group, there was one user who told me that he was running a business selling liquid sedative around the world. And when I asked him to approve this to me, he sent me screenshots of all these parcels that he had been sending through UPS with the addresses.
23:20Jacob Ware:And I could see from what he had sent to me that there were some going heading to Germany, some that were heading to New York, some that were heading to France. And I know that UPS are taking this very seriously and looking into whether they can trace. I mean, even if these websites do, for whatever reason, shut down, what's to stop them from just starting up another one with another name? And that is exactly what we saw in the case of Dominic Pelico. This was the mass rape trial of Gisele Pellico in France. And that's where really it all began because I was in the courtroom when Gisele Pellico's lawyer spoke about Coco.
23:56Jacob Ware:And that was the platform that Dominic Pellico used to recruit over 80 men to rape his sedated wife. And the lawyer described Coco as the weapon of the crime. Because Pellico had gone on there to find like-minded people. And that's how we first started exploring these places is that we knew that there were other websites out there like Coco that were still operating with complete and utter impunity. And so Coco was shut down after this case. I see. But in recent weeks, another platform has just emerged with the same name. And it's got exactly the same interface. So again, as you say, it's kind of this whack-a-mole issue where one goes down and then several others pop up.
24:47Jacob Ware:And so what can be done? Well, if you listen to Giselle Pellico, she says it all starts with education. Many need to understand what consent means. So I do think there are several things that can be done to try and fight this problem. Difficult story, very important story. Saskia Van Doren is CNN's correspondent in Paris, part of an investigative team. on this story. Saskia, thank you very much.
25:11Romy Ellenbogen:Thank you, Scott. We reached out for comment to the social messaging platform Telegram and to kick online entertainment, which operates the porn website motherless.com. We did not hear back from either.
25:38Romy Ellenbogen:Here and Now Anytime comes from NPR and WBUR Boston. Today's stories were produced by Jenea Williams, Will Wacke, and Wilder Fleming. Today's editors were Mark Navin, Michael Scotto, and Kat Welch. Technical direction from Caleb Green and Andre Peralta. Our theme music is by Mike Moschetto, Max Liebman, and Chris Bentley. Our digital producers are Alison Hagen and Grace Griffin, and the executive producer of Here and Now is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow. like little
From the publisher
Then, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis unveiled a new plan this week to redraw the state’s congressional map to give Republicans four extra seats. Tampa Bay Times reporter Romy Ellenbogen shares what this would mean for voters.
And, a CNN investigation exposed a vast underground network of virtual Telegram group chats teaching men how to drug and rape their wives and partners. CNN Paris correspondent Saskya Vandoorne was part of the investigative team and shares more details from the report.
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