Why New Mexico is taking Meta to court

0:00On NPR's Wildcard Podcast, Oprah on the art of being alone. Are you good at being alone? Oh, my God. I'm a master at it. Tell me more. I cherish it. I revel in it. I can't wait to be alone. Watch or listen to that Wildcard Conversation on the NPR app or on YouTube at NPR Wildcard. WBUR Podcasts. Boston. I discovered that most of the tools for kids that we had put in place during my earlier time at Facebook had been removed.

0:40A new lawsuit claims the company Meta puts children and teenagers at risk of sexual abuse and human trafficking.

0:56It's Thursday, February 5th, and this is Here and Now, Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. I'm Shiko Theuri. Today on the show, for the first time since 1972, the U.S. and Russia have no limits on their nuclear arsenals. What does this mean for the global arms race? And children in Gaza still face so much danger despite a formal ceasefire. There's a little girl, Rime, she's six years old. She had undergone already three surgeries to remove shrapnel she had in her belly. And so she needs a medical evacuation. But for the moment, she still has shrapnel in her little body. But first, the attorney general of New Mexico is suing Meta, the parent company of Facebook and Instagram.

1:43The lawsuit claims it puts children and teens at risk of sexual abuse and human trafficking. Three years ago, former Meta executive turned whistleblower Arturo Bejar testified before Congress and said this. In a carefully designed survey by Instagram in 2021, we found that one in eight kids aged 13 to 15 years old experienced unwanted sexual advances in the last seven days. This is unacceptable, and my work has shown that it doesn't need to be this way. New Mexico is seeking monetary damages and wants the company to implement safeguards for children. Raul Torres is spearheading the lawsuit. New Mexicans elected him, a Democrat, to be the state's attorney general in 2022.

2:28Here's his conversation with Scott Tong. As I understand it, your case is built in part on an undercover investigation where investigators used decoy accounts posed as children online and were then approached by sexual predators. Can you tell us a little what they found? Well, what they found really confirms what the whistleblowers at Meta have been saying for years, that predators have migrated to the platform. And what it has turned into is, frankly, the largest online marketplace for predators seeking to exploit children, People who are trying to trade child pornography, engage in child solicitation, but also potentially target children in the real world.

3:09We know that in part because we conducted a subsequent operation called Operation Metaphile where we created decoy accounts on the platform and subsequently took into custody three different individuals who showed up at a motel thinking that they were going to be meeting up with underage children to have sex. So that is – these are online interactions with minors that, as you're arguing, results in actual human trafficking. And that's the kind of evidence you plan to bring at the trial? I understand opening statements start next week. So opening statements do start next week. There's going to be nearly seven weeks of testimony, a lot of evidence submitted by not just our own special agents and people who were involved in the operation, but confirmation of what they found by MetaZone executives, including some of the internal communications from the key executives who are responsible for product safety, including numerous instances where people inside the company raised a red flag and were disregarded.

4:11And your team deposed Mark Zuckerberg, the head of the company. Is that correct? Do you plan to use some of that information in the trial? Well, unfortunately, we don't have the ability to compel Mr. Zuckerberg's participation in the trial. We certainly welcome him to New Mexico to sit in front of a jury and explain his conduct in the case. If Meta decides to put him on the stand, I think it would be interesting for members of the public and members of the jury to hear from him. But we don't have the ability to force him to testify. I see. Now, Meta, for its part, claims that it moderates teen accounts and has safety measures and that your case is based on what the company calls sensationalist arguments, cherry-picked documents.

4:52How do you respond to that? Well, I think the jury having the ability to evaluate all the evidence is going to be able to render a judgment. I'm confident that once they get to see what we have seen, that they are going to find that the conduct of the executives inside of Meta is just shocking, frankly, in terms of turning a blind eye to the safety issues that we've identified. And I think, you know, the fact that we were able to put three separate individuals in handcuffs, individuals, by the way, that were known to Metta as having inappropriate interactions with minors before they were taken into custody, is just another example of the kind of strength of the evidence that we're going to be presenting in this trial.

5:32What about a provision of law known as Section 230 that gives immunity to internet platforms like Facebook from the content that users post? Well, Section 230 provides immunity for the content of third parties posted on the platform, and so it's something that big tech has been hiding behind for a number of years. It was obviously the first thing they tried to hide behind in terms of not having to go to trial. In this case, the judge evaluated their motions, rejected those motions, in part because we're not going after and we're not really focusing on third-party content. What we're focused on are the design features of their product and for the misrepresentations that they make.

6:12Our consumer protection laws allow us to pursue claims with respect to those misrepresentations and to product safety, and that'll be the core of the trial presentation that we make beginning next week. Raul Torres is the Attorney General of New Mexico. Raul, thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. Coming up next, a significant nuclear arms treaty has expired. What does this mean for the future of nuclear arms control? Stay with us.

7:10budget, and they work for you for free. Get the right life insurance for you and save more than 50 % at selectquote.com slash anytime. That's 50 % off at selectquote.com slash anytime. This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air. You'll see your favorite actors, directors, and comedians on late night TV shows or YouTube, but what you get with Fresh Air is a deep dive. Spend some quality time with people like Billie Eilish, Questlove, Ariana Grande, Stephen Colbert, and so many more. We ask questions you won't hear asked anywhere else. Listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and WHYY.

7:55The U.S.-Russia arms control deal, known as the New START Treaty, expires today. It's the last remaining nuclear arms pact between Russia and the U.S., and its expiration could increase the risk of nuclear weapons use. Herein now, security analyst Jim Walsh has been following this. He's with the Security Studies Program at MIT. Here's his conversation with Scott. The new START treaty we're talking about goes back to 2011, restricted each country to 1 ,550 strategic warheads. What did it accomplish? It accomplished several things. At a military level, it restrained the possibility of a nuclear arms race.

8:34Prior to that, especially in the 1980s, both countries were building literally tens of thousands of nuclear weapons. And this was part of a slow process of ratcheting that back. And, you know, as a consequence, it also had political effects. You know, it meant that each side felt a little less threatened by the other, but primarily military, that it put a cap on the ability of both countries to build nuclear weapons and to sort of settle what was already a dangerous situation. Why is it expiring? Honestly, because no one cares. That's a terrible answer. But in the case of Russia, what is Russia about?

9:10It's all about Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine. One through 20 of its top priorities is Ukraine. It doesn't really have a lot of time for arms control. and the president sort of goes from one issue to the next and one issue to the next and always seems to think that he'll have a chance to get this done. But that's not the way it works in real life. Unless you stay focused and work hard at something, it will slip away. And though both parties promise to abide by it in the breach, even as it expires, that is a thin reed to rest your national security on. We should know, Jim, there are some reporting suggesting talks even today to possibly extend the treaty, but for now, there isn't one.

9:48Is it likely? Is it reasonable? You just said, you know, each side is other things on its mind. Is it likely the U.S. and Russia will start a next arms race? Well, it won't happen today, and it won't happen tomorrow. But the way these things work out is you have a restraint in place. It holds everyone back. And then people don't really think about it very much. It's just sort of the law of the land, the way you do business. And then for whatever reason, one side pulls out, the thing falls apart, and then nothing happens today, tomorrow, but a year or five years from now, there's some crisis. And then people start responding to the crisis.

10:21And then they reach, you know, maybe we should have more nuclear weapons. And then that restraint is gone. And then people just, it paves a way for the next crisis. And we know we're going to get one. The world is a changing world. The next crisis to then lead to a real rearmament, not just by the U.S. and Russia, but by all the other parties who would be affected by it. The other eight nuclear weapon states, six nuclear weapon states. And speaking of nuclear weapons, Jim, Iran, its officials meet with American officials tomorrow to negotiate its nuclear program. We should note the U.S. struck Iranian nuclear facilities last summer during a dispute between Israel and Iran.

11:04What is each side trying to accomplish here? For the Trump side, it's a big grab bag of things. Now, Trump said the nuclear program was obliterated. So if that's true, why would we have to bomb them over the nuclear program, right? But it's not just nuclear that's on the table. They want them to put limits on their missiles, which is their only form of self-defense. They want them to change their relationship to other players in the region. It wants them to stop with the human rights abuses. That's a big, long agenda. and the instruments of coercion, and that's what this is, we're threatening them.

11:39They're not threatening to attack us. We are threatening them, do what we say or we'll bomb you. The instruments we have to sort of get them to agree to that laundry list of capitulations is limited. I mean, we can bomb them, but lots of places get bombed and don't give in. So there's a mismatch here between what we want, which is really, really big, and what the Iranians want, which is something much narrower so they can survive the day and get through what is a bad period for them. Yeah, the president, as you're talking about, has made several threats against Iran if it restarts its nuclear reprocessing program.

12:12Here is President Trump yesterday on NBC. They were thinking about starting a new site in a different part of the country. We found out about it. I said, you do that, we're going to do very bad things to you. Now, he's made previous threats in December against Tehran during the government's bloody crackdown on protesters, which killed an estimated 6 ,000 people, according to activists. How does that fit into these talks? Does it? I think it does. I mean, the people, the leaders in Tehran are up against it, right? They have economic problems, domestic unrest. They don't want to be bombed. But like, do you really cut a deal with Trump?

12:53Because what happens if five minutes from now he turns around and says, well, I'm going to bomb you for this. I'm going to bomb you for that. I'm going to put tariffs on you. I mean, no, nothing is ever set here in a negotiation with him. So the fact that we were negotiating with Iran in May and then Israel attacked Iran in the middle of the U.S.-Iran negotiation, then the U.S. joined the attack and bombed Iran. and then we've been, what, for six months been threatening for this or for that, I think it makes it harder to get an agreement because the Iranians may say to themselves, well, why should we agree this guy's just going to change the terms right after the deal is done?

13:29That is here now security analyst Jim Walsh, who is senior research associate in the security studies program at MIT. Jim, thanks for coming in. Thank you, Scott.

13:42Coming up, the ongoing war in Gaza is taking an immense toll on its children. We have the latest after the break.

13:58In Gaza, the fragile ceasefire between Israel and Hamas is still formally in place. But Israeli strikes continue. Yesterday, they killed at least 24 Palestinians, including a 10-day-old baby, according to hospital workers. Israel said the strikes were in response to a Hamas attack on one of its soldiers. Aid workers in Gaza say more than a million children are bearing the brunt of the war. Jonathan Criks has seen this firsthand. He's spokesman for UNICEF, based in the city of Almawasi in southern Gaza. Here's his conversation with Scott. I wonder if there is a person or two you have met or seen on this trip to Gaza you can talk to us about, just to put a face on what is happening.

14:40Well, I met with so many children. And just today, I visited a rehabilitation center. So it's a place where there is some physical therapy provided to children who have been injured in the war. And I met a little boy. He's a nine-year-old. His name is Ryan. and while he was picking water in the middle of the summer last year, he was hit by a strike. You know, we were interacting, we were talking while he was doing exercises in order to recover the use of his hand and of his leg. And that's something which is always extremely touching because it's not one child. It's like we have seen reports of more than 40 ,000 children who have been injured throughout the war, and meeting so many of them who have been injured, amputated, is always something which is, you know, really affecting all of us here on the ground in Gaza.

15:39I understand. My understanding is the RAFA crossing to get in and out of Gaza is reopening. Are there children who are in kind of urgent need of medical evacuation to get out and get immediate medical care? Well, there are many children, really many children were in need of medical evacuation. According to the World Health Organization, it's approximately 4 ,000 children who need medical evacuation from Gaza. You know, in December, I had met with a little girl, Rime, she's six years old. She was also hit in a strike and she had undergone already three surgeries to remove all the shrapnel she had in her belly.

16:23And so she needs a medical evacuation, but for the moment, she still has shrapnel in her little body. So, you know, that's one of the terrible example of children who are in need of those medical evacuations. But then, you know, like everywhere in the world, you also have children who have a disease or medical condition that need a kidney transplant that have cancer or leukemia. And of course, for those children, it's completely impossible to get that treatment inside Gaza with the seriously damaged or destroyed health system. So for them, the Rafa Crossing Point opening is a very important development.

17:01And once again, we're talking about 4 ,000 children here. Yeah. UNICEF, your organization, I understand, is supporting more than 100 temporary school-type facilities in Gaza. And you've said that's not nearly enough. But help us understand what is happening at these facilities, these school type places. I was at one of them this morning. It was extremely noisy because you had hundreds of children who were running and yelling and singing. So it's actually, how can I describe this? It's actually you put a set of high quality tents in the middle of the displaced people camps. And there you bring teachers and school supplies to deliver very, very basic learning slash education.

17:52What the children are learning there is how to read, how to write, a little bit of math and a little bit of science. And, you know, the objective here is to help them get back to some form of normalcy. And in the 110 temporary learning space that we have set up, we are already supporting 130 ,000 children. But that's definitely not enough. Because in total, in the Gaza Strip today, you have 700 ,000 school-aged children who didn't get access to any formal education in the past two years. So when my child, who's a six-year-old, is missing two weeks at school, it takes me and my wife a lot of time to cover that gap of two weeks.

18:39Can you imagine two years? And, Jonathan, one more quick question before we let you go. UN officials say its member agencies like UNICEF are facing imminent financial collapse. They say the UN agencies could run out of money if member countries, including the U.S., do not pay their annual dues. We're talking about billions of dollars. Does UNICEF have the funds to do its work right now? I mean, in Gaza, we've been here for decades and we are continuing to stay and deliver despite all the challenges. It's true that the situation is not an easy one. I think it's very important to bear in mind that for decades, the United States of America and many other countries have saved millions of children's lives around the world.

19:26I really hope that there is room to continue to support. It's a question of humanity. It's a question of empathy also for other children that could be yours and that could be mine. Jonathan Quicks is a spokesman for UNICEF, joining us from southern Gaza, the city of El Mawasi in southern Gaza. Jonathan, thank you. Thanks for having me.

19:59Here and Now Any Time comes from NPR and WBOR Boston. Today's stories were produced by Wilder Fleming, Hafsa Qureshi, and Jenea Williams. Today's editors were Todd Munt, Mikaela Rodriguez, and Michael Scotto. Technical direction from Caleb Green and Andre Peralta. Our theme music is by Mike Moschetto, Max Liebman, and Chris Bentley. Our digital producers are Alison Hagen and Grace Griffin, and the executive producer of Here and Now is Alan Price. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.