Murder Mystery

23:22Well, you want to learn about it, right? And if you're introduced to something that scientists in particular are just now kind of trying to figure out, you know, in February and March of 2020, a lot of mistakes were made. People were kind of seeing the scientific method in action. They were seeing how science works in action, which is, you know, you think something might be true and you test it and maybe it is and maybe it isn't. And I think people aren't used to that. And so the next best thing that they had, the best cohesive story that people had was, in this case, Contagion. It was a film about a pandemic and about the social response to that pandemic, about how the virus spread and what it did to you.

24:06And it was a neatly packaged, well-told story in about 90 minutes that people could consume.

24:17So in some ways, Colton, this puts a different spin on students who go to see a violent movie after something bad has happened on their college campus. Correct. Yeah. You know, that study came out in the 1970s and these scientists didn't call what they were observing morbid curiosity, but that's exactly what they were measuring. That's what they were finding was morbidly curious behavior in these college students who presumably felt an urge to learn about interpersonal violence. And again, you know, an easy, easy way for them to do that is to go see a movie.

25:01I can think of all kinds of other examples from the news. You know, something bad happens, there's a serial killer on the loose, and suddenly we're all very fascinated with psychopathy. And it's not necessarily because we're interested in psychopaths, but we're saying something dangerous is out there. Let me learn about it. In some ways, it's a form of predator inspection. Exactly right. Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of the neural mechanisms are probably conserved across mammals for predator evasion, predator inspection, just general threat management when it comes to predators. If a zebra had the ability to write a book or create a documentary or a fiction film, it would almost certainly create many of those about lions.

25:48and I think the same is true of gazelles they would be creating media entertainment about cheetahs and I think humans do the same thing the only difference between other animals and their form of morbid curiosity and humans and their form of morbid curiosity is that humans can actually create stories where they're not exposed to the danger, right? So if a gazelle wants to learn something about a cheetah it has to be there in person, and there's a much higher risk associated with that. Humans, on the other hand, can consume a story that someone else has created either because they've had a personal experience with this danger or because they understand how this danger works and they can put it actually in a new context in which nobody has ever experienced this danger, but they might.

26:37So humans have this incredible ability to forecast into possible futures and imagine what kinds of behaviors are adaptive, what kinds of behaviors are maladaptive, and what these things might look like, how we can prepare for them, how we might see them coming before they actually arrive.

26:58So it's much safer, in other words, to sit in a movie theater with a bag of popcorn in your hand and hear a story about a terrifying killer shark that's on the loose than to actually be in the waters of the ocean and potentially have to encounter the shark. Correct. Yeah. And one of the questions I get a lot is, well, if that's true, why don't we just read science textbooks about sharks in that case? Or why don't we read science textbooks about pandemics instead of watching Contagion? And I think the answer is that, you know, humans are storytelling creatures. We learn really well, despite the fact that we can experience a situation cognitively without actually being in the presence of it.

27:39You know, we come from a 500 million year line of organisms that have developed brains that can only understand experience in a first person perspective. And that's exactly what stories do is they give you a first person perspective of what it's like to be somewhere and experience a thing. And so stories kind of, you know, are crafted in a way that tap into these evolutionarily old parts of our mind that are just used to dealing with everyday experience. And so we consume them more easily. We remember things from them more easily. And, you know, in small scale societies, most things are told as stories.

28:17They're not told as a list of facts.

28:29your research has found that watching content like horror movies can help make people more psychologically resilient uh how so colton this this was one of the more interesting things out of my career so far i think was finding that being a horror fan you know watching scary movies or reading scary books seems to actually have an effect on how resilient you are to real dangers in the world. And so I first found this in the early months of the COVID-19 pandemic. We recruited a couple hundred people using online platforms because, of course, we couldn't bring people into the lab. And what we found was that people who were horror fans uniquely were more resilient to the stresses of the pandemic.

29:17So even when we controlled for big five personality, we controlled for age, we controlled for income, we controlled for sex, we controlled for all these things we could think of that might influence resilience. And we still found that if you watched horror movies, you were more resilient during those early months of the pandemic. People who were horror fans were experiencing less psychological distress. So they were experiencing, to a lesser degree, anxiety, insomnia, sleeplessness, depression. They were experiencing those physiological symptoms of stress much less than people who were not horror fans.

29:56And when we looked at morbidly curious people, and we isolated that variable by itself, we found that people who scored high in morbid curiosity were experiencing much more positive resilience. So they were much more optimistic about their ability to kind of get through these difficult times. They were feeling, you know, despite how difficult the world was, they kind of maintained their optimism about humanity and about their ability to persevere.

30:30I'm wondering if it's also possible that as we watch the movie about the scary shark or the movie about the serial killer, in some ways it takes our minds off of the things that are worrying us in our real lives. In other words, the fear of the artificial threat in some ways replaces the fear of the real threat and in some ways mitigates how frightened we are in real life. Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, you would think that if you're feeling stressed, you might go watch a feel-good movie, watch a comedy or a rom-com or something that would make you feel good, right? But what's really interesting is people don't seem to do that as often as they seem to seek out scary things or things that are difficult to engage with when they're feeling bad.

31:18And this really intrigued me. And I kind of, you know, there was no research on this when I first started thinking about this conundrum, this paradox. And what I was finding were a lot of horror fans who would write about this experience. They would write about their personal experience overcoming their anxiety with horror. And they'll write about this on online, you know, message boards like Reddit, for example, or they would write op-eds in magazines. And many times, you know, they would they would accidentally discover this and they don't understand quite why it works. But they were noticing that when they would watch the scary movie, it seemed to kind of calm them down.

31:57And so I started, you know, I started thinking about this, like, how could this possibly work? What are the what are the mechanisms here? You know, if this really does work in some people, what could be going on? so i think what's happening here is when you are feeling anxious about something in particular if you're feeling kind of a generalized anxiety you know you're not really sure what you're anxious about but you you're getting the sweaty palms the racing heart you're feeling vigilant uh that just kind of sits in this cycle this vigilance cycle where your vigilance is looking for a potential threat and it can't find it so it turns up the vigilance even more to try to find it and it still can't find it.

32:33And those are the cycles of rumination that are pretty familiar to people with anxiety. And what's interesting is, you know, our minds are exceptionally attuned to threats. So threats pretty much overpower any other stimulus in our field of view and our mind. And that makes sense, because if there's something threatening in your environment, you should kind of pay attention to that over other things. The problem, of course, is in humans, we don't often have threatening things in our environment, but we have them in our heads. and so I thought well maybe horror kind of is like fighting fire with fire because you're giving your mind something threatening to latch on to you know you're giving it a killer on the screen or a you know a serial in the case of true crime like a serial story about a serial killer or in horror the story of this terrible monster and what that does is it does a much better job of kind of dislodging this this cycle of rumination you can imagine it kind of like a like a highway off ramp you know, for your mind so that you can get out of that.

33:32And then now you're sucked into the movie or in a book works just as well for many people. You're sucked into this story, let's say the scary story, and you're still feeling anxious. You haven't solved that problem yet. But the difference now is that you have control over the source of the anxiety. It's identifiable. You know what you're anxious about. You have some control over it. You can put the book down. You can pause the movie. You can sit with a friend and watch it. You can do things that make you feel safer. you can collect yourself right or you can kind of as the movie's playing through some of the the uh less scary scenes you can kind of collect your yourself a bit um and then after 90 minutes the movie ends the threat goes away and that triggers to your to your mind like hey the threat is we found the threat now it's gone now what's called the parasympathetic nervous system this is the part of your mind that controls the you can think of it like the as the rest and digest part of your nervous system.

34:25It helps you kind of relax. That part of your nervous system kicks in and it helps physiologically calm you down.

34:45You've been exploring the idea that people might sometimes use scary entertainment as a way to connect with other people. What do you mean by this? You know, we talked about earlier how humans are storytelling creatures. A lot of our time is spent talking with others, telling others about things, experiencing these fictional worlds or past experiences or future possibilities with others. And sometimes those are scary stories, scary events that might happen or scary events that did happen or scary fictions that could happen. And so, again, you know, we kind of just took the next natural extension of this.

35:23you have, okay, well, maybe some people who are anxious seem drawn to horror and it helps them because it gets them out of a cycle of rumination. And then the kind of next step of that is, okay, if they do this a lot, they might actually be building some skills and learning something about themselves. But then if you go to a haunted attraction in October or you go to a new screening of a new horror movie at a theater, what you notice is that most people are there with someone else. And this is especially true at Haunted Attractions. And what's especially interesting at Haunted Attractions, there's two things here.

35:57One of them is that, you know, they open usually in late September and they're open through Halloween. That's kind of their prime season. But if they're open another time of year, it's almost always during Valentine's Day. It's during a holiday where we spend time with those we love the most. And it was kind of intriguing to me that that's when they were open, right? And if you go to a haunted house in October, what you notice is that a lot of people are there with their significant other. If you go to a horror movie, what you notice is a lot of people are there with their significant other, their spouse or their boyfriend or fiance or girlfriend.

36:32And so we think kind of this next natural extension of our thinking here was that, well, maybe you're not only learning something about yourself, but maybe you're also learning something about the people around you because you're seeing how they respond in these sort of playful simulations of fear. So for example, you know, if I go through a haunted attraction with a friend and my friend acts protective towards me and kind of we stick together, right? That's kind of a good clue that maybe they're a good cooperative partner. But if I go to this simulation and I see them kind of lose their cool a little bit and they leave me behind or, you know, they They don't cooperate with me in this simulation of a fearful experience.

37:16It might be an indication that they're not going to cooperate with me in a real situation that's threatening. And so we could be learning not only about ourselves, but about potential partners or friends in these situations.

37:40I mean, I'm thinking even of little kids during Halloween. I mean, who goes trick-or-treating just by themselves? The whole fun is to go with other little kids and to scream and terror together. In some ways, it is a very social activity. And of course, I think the idea that horror movies might make for good date night movies or date movies, I think that's well established. Yeah, some of the earliest work on horror movies was research on couples and what couples do when they go to a scary movie. And this was kind of dubbed the snuggle theory of horror. And this early idea was that the reason people enjoyed horror movies was because they could kind of live out these cultural expectations of how they were supposed to react.

38:26So, for example, if a man and a woman go on a date to a horror movie, there's an expectation that the man will act kind of brave and, you know, will it'll give him a good excuse to kind of bring his female counterpart closer to him. And the woman will have this expectation of the man that he will act brave as well, but also that she might be a little fearful and give him the opportunity to act brave. Give him see if he will act brave when she's afraid.

38:58It's commonly feared that people who are drawn to dark and disturbing content must themselves harbor unsavory qualities. When we come back, are horror aficionados people to be feared or some of the nicest people around? You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

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42:12This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. Are you a fan of dark and sinister tales? Do you find yourself gravitating to stories of crime and vengeance? Do you sometimes feel guilty about the books you read and the TV you consume? If you have a personal story you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience about your interests in the eerie or the macabre, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo. Two or three minutes is plenty. Email it to us at ideas at hiddenbrain.org with the subject line, scary. Again, that's ideas at hiddenbrain.org. Across the animal kingdom, creatures large and small seem to be fascinated by their predators.

42:58Humans are no exception. We devour books and movies about pathogens and pandemics, terrorists and traitors, serial killers, and psychopaths. Colton Scrivner is a researcher at Arizona State University and Aarhus University in Denmark. He is the author of Morbidly Curious, a Scientist Explains Why We Can't Look Away. In the early 1980s, Colton, a new generation of super gory horror films hit the theaters. Audiences loved them, but many observers were appalled. Here's film critic Roger Ebert sharing his view about one such film. Our next movie is Friday the 13th, the final chapter, an immoral and reprehensible piece of trash that sold more tickets on its opening weekend than any other movie so far in 1984.

43:45And that is a very, very depressing commentary. It really makes me sad to think of all those moviegoers, most of them teenage kids, sitting there watching this sad, cynical, depressing movie. Colton, what do you hear in that expression of outrage about the content of horror movies and the people who go to see them? So Roger Ebert hosted this show with Gene Siskel, And they were two of the most well-respected, popular movie critics of their time. So Roger Ebert there obviously saying that it was a real shame that people were watching this morally depraved movie. And Gene Siskel chimes in a bit later by saying that people who enjoy it are obviously depraved and they hate women.

44:28And what struck me about this clip when I watched it for the first time was that the film critics weren't criticizing the film. I mean, they were, but they were even more so they were criticizing people who watched the film, which is unusual, I think, for a film critic to do. And, you know, you might think, well, maybe that only happened in the 1980s because that's when slashers kind of cropped up. right? Halloween success drove filmmakers to make hundreds of these slasher movies, the most successful of which right afterwards was Friday the 13th. And these were gorier, they were more violent, sure.

45:06And Roger Ebert and Gene Siskel and many other critics hated these films, thought they were just, as you said, they're a poor indication of the health of society, if you will, especially of young people, of teenagers. So yeah, I mean, what I hear there is not a film critic criticizing a film, but a film critic criticizing the sort of moral standing of the film's fans.

45:39There was a movie critic from the New York Post who wrote a blistering review about the movie series Saw, where he says that people who watch these movies are, quote, depraved lunatics who should not be allowed near animals or most other living things. So it's not just that there's something wrong with these people for watching these movies, but that we should be afraid of these people who go and watch these movies. Well, it's worth seeing two things. I mean, one, are they right? Are people who are horror fans, you know, low in empathy? Are they not compassionate, not kind, you know, terrible people?

46:16as much as I didn't want that to be true, I was open to the possibility, right? Because I'm sympathetic to the intuition that if you can watch really violent things and be okay with it and even enjoy it, that maybe it says something about your psyche or whether or not you approve of violence. I'm sympathetic to that intuition. But as far as I knew, there was no empirical work that had really shown this. And so the very first thing I did was I actually ran a study where I created these fake user profiles, you know, like you might see on a, an early version of a social media website where it's just a person's name, their age, whether they were a man or woman and their favorite movie genre.

46:58And I created hundreds of these profiles that were just randomized, you know, and, uh, I presented them to participants and I asked the participants to kind of guess like what they think this person is like, you know, with minimal information, what can you discern about this individual? And I'd ask them to guess this individual's personality, you know, their big five traits, but also, you know, how empathetic do you think they are? How compassionate do you think they are? How kind? And what I found was that people were much more likely to say that, you know, if one of the profiles said that the favorite movie genre of that individual was horror, they were much more likely to say that that individual is likely to be unkind, not compassionate, and lacking in empathy.

47:46That really said to me, like, okay, it's not just movie critics. You know, it's regular people kind of have this intuition. So then I was like, okay, I really have to study this and see if it's true. So I ran a series of studies. But what I found was that all of my horror fans looked just like regular people, looked like i had a group of non-horror fans kind of as my control and uh they look just like them there was no relationship between how much of a horror fan you were and how empathetic you were except that now there there was a couple of instances where i did find something significant but interestingly it was in the opposite direction as many people would expect so some some horror fans uh and in particular those who like the paranormal horror movies uh scored a bit higher in cognitive empathy.

48:32So they were a bit better at taking the perspective of other people. What you're doing when you're engaging in a fictional story about someone's experience is you are imagining yourself in their shoes. I mean, you are literally engaging cognitive empathy, right? And when you see shots of their face on the film where it kind of zooms in on the victim, in this case of a horror film, the victim's face, you know, their screams of agony and their fear on their face. I mean, you're then ideally you're feeling that right. You're feeling afraid and you're putting yourself in their situation. And if you're not doing that, you're probably not enjoying the horror movie.

49:09Right. I when I buy a ticket to a horror film, I expect to feel afraid. I expect to be scared. And if I don't empathize with the protagonist, then I'm probably not going to feel afraid. Right. We're not afraid of monsters because they kill people or they kill people on screen. We're afraid of monsters because they kill people who are like us. Right. People we're imagining ourselves to be. That's what generates the fear. And so if you're not empathizing with the protagonist in a horror film, you're probably not enjoying the horror film that much. Now, of course, could someone who is really violent, could they be empathizing with the killer?

49:42Sure, I suppose so. I mean, that's true of action movies as well. It's true of rom-coms where there's an evil partner, you know, a really bad toxic partner. You could be empathizing with them. I think that's not something that's unique with horror. I think in many cases, in many genres of film, people are empathizing with the protagonist. That's how stories are crafted to be understood. But I'm thinking back to movies like Jaws. The movie is called Jaws. It's about a shark, but really it's not about the shark at all. It's actually about how people are terrified about the shark, how they're frightened about the shark, how they're trying to defend themselves against the shark.

50:17It's really about the people, not the monster. I think that's exactly right. And that's a good example of where it would be kind of silly to say that people are empathizing with the antagonists. Like, are they imagining themselves as a shark? That's a strange argument to make, right? I think it's clear in a film like Jaws that people, like you said, are empathizing with and taking sort of the cognitive perspective of the protagonists and the danger they're in.

50:52There's another line of evidence that people who enjoy horror are in fact people who are empathetic. And that comes from the genre of the haunted house that involves a character known as a pleader. Can you describe one of these houses and who these characters are, Colton? Yeah, I was talking to Ben Armstrong, who owns Netherworld Haunted House in Georgia. It's one of the most well-known haunted attractions around Halloween. And I was telling him about this empathy study that I had just conducted. because I was, you know, like I was surprised by it. And I was asking him what he thought about it as someone who is in the horror industry.

51:33And he said, you know, it kind of makes sense. He said, in our industry, we have what are called pleaders. And these are usually like younger kids, young women who are in the haunt, who are actors. They're actors in the experience. But in the story, as you go through the haunt, in the story, they are seen as victims. So they're like a visitor who's been captured and is being held captive. And as you go through the haunted house, you kind of have the option to stop and try to help them escape. Or you can continue on, right? And maybe you think it's a trap or maybe you're too afraid to go try to help this person.

52:12And you would think that most people who visit the haunted house would ignore the pleader because they know that they're an actor. It's no secret that this individual is probably an actor. and there's no requirement to actually help this person, right? You can continue on as you please. But he said, you know, what you find is that the pleaders are one of the more successful parts of the haunt. I mean, they almost always draw in with their cries of help. They almost always draw in these people who are at the haunted house to come help them. And a lot of that is, you know, they're activating the empathy response.

52:45They look like vulnerable protagonists in this story or in this case, vulnerable side characters. And they're, you know, activating the empathy response in the haunt goers really well.

53:05Another real-life demonstration of this research finding that empathetic people might be the ones who are drawn to horror are so-called horror-themed restaurants. Tell me what a horror-themed restaurant is and why some of them seem to attract a clientele that is especially tender-hearted. Yeah, there's been kind of a recent crop of horror-themed restaurants. There are restaurants that have themes that you would find in a horror movie or are themed like particular horror movies. And you see this with bars and restaurants and sort of all kinds of almost experience-based establishments. And what's really interesting is that a lot of these horror-themed restaurants or coffee shops, they'll have a really high portion of vegan or vegetarian options.

53:54And you might think that someone who's a horror fan, you know, doesn't, again, as the New York Post critic said, shouldn't be allowed around animals. But what's a little ironic is that many of these horror-themed restaurants are either vegetarian or vegan restaurants, or they have a huge aspect of their menu that caters to vegetarians and vegans. presumably horror fan vegans or horror fan vegetarians.

54:20I mean, in some ways that runs against the idea that these people who watch these movies are sort of bloodthirsty people, almost by definition. Yeah. And, you know, I'm myself, I'm not a vegetarian or vegan. And I don't, you know, think that it necessarily says anything about the individual if they are or are not. But it certainly would be strange to have an individual who you think shouldn't be allowed around animals and yet they are a vegetarian or a vegan, perhaps for moral reasons, right, for their own moral reasons.

54:57Not everyone feels a natural inclination to feed their morbid curiosity. Maybe you're someone who scurries away when your spouse puts on a gory movie or cringes when your child plays a violent video game. And yet, maybe you're also curious about the psychological benefits of engaging with the dark side of life. If so, our companion episode on Hidden Brain Plus may be for you. It's called How to Enjoy the Chills. You can try Hidden Brain Plus with a free seven-day trial by going to support.hiddenbrain.org. If you're using an Apple device, go to apple.co.hiddenbrain. Again, those sites are support.hiddenbrain.org and apple.co.hiddenbrain.

55:46Colton Scrivner is a researcher at Arizona State University and Aarhus University in Denmark. He's the author of Morbidly Curious, A Scientist Explains Why We Can't Look Away. Colton, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain. Thank you very much for having me on.

56:08Are you a fan of thrillers and murder mysteries? Do you love true crime podcasts? Does the idea of going to a haunted house or an escape room seem like great fun? If you have a personal story you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience, or a question or comment about morbid curiosity, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo. Two or three minutes is plenty. Email it to us at feedback at hiddenbrain.org with the subject line, scary. Again, that's feedback at hiddenbrain.org. Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy-Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Querell, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Woodbury.

56:59Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. This December, Hidden Brain is proud to join Pods Fight Poverty. We're teaming up with other podcasts to raise funds to lift three villages in Rwanda out of extreme poverty. Your donation goes directly, no strings, no middlemen, to the families who know best what they need. Visit givedirectly.org slash hiddenbrain to make a difference for someone who needs it most. That's givedirectly.org slash hiddenbrain I'm Shankar Vedantam See you soon

57:48Hey everyone, it's Stavros Halakas and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, Stavi's World Each week we're joined by great guests like Josh Safdie, Eric Andre, Caleb Heron and more It's sort of an interview show, but really, we're just messing around, making each other laugh, and hopefully making you laugh while you're washing the dishes or grocery shopping or on a long drive. Plus, I take listener calls where we have honest conversations about dating life and everything in between. Imagine if your therapist was a vulgar degenerate whose office was in a Greek diner. No scripts, no polish, and absolutely no holding back.

58:23Listen to Stavi's World wherever you get your podcasts.

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1:00:19Transcription by CastingWords information, Tennessee 2-0-1-2.