Waking Up Your Spiritual Brain: Part 2

29:57it can even be the case that depression potentiates spiritual growth. Our brain is built so that in moments of despair, we are potentiated to widen the aperture and let in more light and start to awaken spiritually. In my collaboration with Myrna Weissman and her team, we found that those people who have a very strong spirituality today are two and a half times more likely to have gotten there through the road of trials, through a major depression. In other words, people who say, yes, I turned to God for guidance. I have a very strong relationship, a lived, felt relationship with my higher power, the universe, are 250 % more likely in the past 10 years to have come through a major depression.

30:52A spiritual response to suffering, once formed, becomes the new way to lean into life. It becomes the go-to way to look into the deeper nature of life, betrayal, disappointment, loss. What life are you showing me now? How can I love more deeply? a spiritual response to suffering. The red door I wanted so much is stuck. It's slammed shut and I can't go where I've always wanted to go or I wanted my child to go. But hey, look over there. There is a wide open, I didn't even know they existed, yellow door. A yellow door that has a new career, a new community, a new partner beyond what I even knew existed.

31:43This is a dialogue, a lived dialogue with life that takes us out of the finite achieving mind and into the awakened mind.

31:59You talk about helping a patient named Bev in your therapy practice develop what you call heart-knowing, going beyond the rational, the intellectual knowing to heart-knowing. Paint me a picture of Bev's story. So Bev came in tormented by a decision she had to make, so much so that it weighed on her heart. It was making her anxious. Bev had raised three of her four children. Her youngest child, her daughter, was still at home. And right at the time where she had wanted to try to connect with her daughter, she'd felt a certain distance between her and her fourth child that she'd not felt towards the other.

32:41She described a blended feeling that she felt with the oldest three, and the fourth seemed more distant, disconnected. Bev had hoped that now that her fourth child was in high school, she could clear time to really just focus on her and that a bond might form, that they could be in this intimate way, just the two of them for this passage. But right at that time, she was given a very unexpected offer of promotion, a promotion that would have required 15 more hours of work a week, a promotion that she felt honored her abilities. She was proud to receive the promotion, but tremendously concerned that it was going to cut into this chapter that she had so anticipated of bonding with her daughter.

33:33And then so, you know, it was very common at that time to use therapy as a way of ferreting out the pros, the cons, maybe the automatic thoughts behind the pros and cons, distill the relationships. But I saw in Bev that she was looking into life itself looking for guidance in the universe, looking for some sort of connection in her relationship to who she called God to guide her. And so in the case of Bev, it occurred to me that awakened awareness would be very helpful supporting her natural capacity for awakened awareness, allowing her to authorize her own whisper of a hunch, authorize her own inner knowing.

34:31And Bev, within a matter of weeks, took to the notion that she could trust her inner wisdom, that there was an inner spiritual compass. I didn't tell her which way the compass pointed, and I didn't offer her the proof. She started listening to her own inner wisdom. She started following her own spiritual compass and finding answers and solutions, synchronicities, pointing her on the path where in her life she could make her own choice. This was a guided, spiritually grounded decision.

35:18You say that in addition to personal practices, we can also engage in shared rituals and community practices. Why would engaging in these disciplines with other people make a difference, do you think, Lisa? Shankar, there's marvelous research that shows that when we pray or meditate in a community, we effectively, as an antenna, help hold presence for one another. So certainly we can pray or meditate alone and have a deep transcendent connection. And yet still, when we meditate together, we hold presence for one another. We augment the intensity and the fluidity through which we connect to the transcendent.

36:08My very wonderful colleague, Dr. Andy Newberg, showed that if nine people are in a state of prayer and the tenth person walks in the door and sits down, they more rapidly move into a state of transcendence as measured by the rapidity with which their mirror neurons come up online, which means we literally hold presence for one another. We are not creating presence. We are not creating God. We are not creating consciousness. We are holding an intensified presence of the sacred into which others can move more quickly, which is very optimistic for society.

37:01So most of us turn to the language of pathology to describe the effects of crises and setbacks in our lives. We talk about trauma and depression or anxiety or dysregulation. You think it's possible for us to change this framing, to think of crises and struggles as portals for growth? When we look at the data, whether it's long-term clinical course studies, epidemiological high-risk studies, MRI studies, through multiple lenses, Shankar, we see the same laser beam of truth, which is depression potentiates spiritual growth. We still have to do the work and engage the journey, but at least two-thirds of the time, depression is not only a medical illness.

37:52It is, in fact, more of a developmental process we might call a developmental depression that beckons us into a deepening and opening a growth. When we look at longitudinal twin studies, we see that there is an increasing amount of heritable inborn contribution to spiritual awareness, starting with puberty, biological puberty. From middle to late adolescence into emerging adulthood is a surge, a biological clock from the inside out. Bring what is my purpose? I mean ultimate purpose. What is the meaning of life? I mean sacred purpose. In fact, the most important work we do in late adolescence, emerging adulthood, is to engage the ultimate questions and the hunger of the heart for spiritual connection.

38:54Developmental depression beckons us. It is a knock at the door to spiritual awakening. Developmental depression comes back. It is not only once that we are hardwired to suffer and then grow. At midlife, we of course have cultural names, sophomore slump, midlife crisis. At midlife, we again have an expansion in our spiritual capacity. And in fact, long-term clinical course studies showed us that those people who were the most spiritually engaged at midlife actually hunger and struggle the most.

39:36because as our spiritual capacity once again grows at midlife, the more spiritually engaged we are, the more we feel the existential longing, perhaps no longer what is my meaning and purpose, but now am I living? Am I walking the walk of my meaning and purpose? The third developmental bridge is that of the ascension to elderhood. developmental depression once again that can open into an expanded spiritual awareness. Emerging adulthood, midlife, and the ascension to elderhood are three hardwired bridges of spiritual growth, which usually kick off with existential struggle developmental depression.

40:22This means that I'm not against medication, but medication alone is insufficient to do the profound foundational work of spiritual growth that is a setup for a much more inspired life of dialogue. I'm wondering whether fellow clinicians and researchers worry that a focus on spirituality can take people away from biomedical interventions, cures, and treatments. That in some ways, someone comes in with depression, and you say, well, the way out of your depression is to start a spiritual practice, and the person says, I'm just overwhelmed dealing with what I have right now. I can't change something that important in my life.

41:04You know, Shankar, very often people are relieved when you ask them about their spiritual life. We asked hundreds of high school students to tell us about a spiritual experience, and nearly half of our high school students said, wow, I always thought something was going on, but no one ever talked about it. In a clinical setting, people are often tremendously hopeful and relieved and curious that you would open the door, give name, and authorize, yes, we talk about that here. Here in treatment, here at this hospital, at this clinic, in my practice, we talk about spirituality here. Now, of course, as clinicians, our goal is to keep a client-centered, patient-centered journey of spiritual exploration.

41:56So it doesn't matter what faith tradition I may be or not be. It is a client, patient-centered process that can be opened through three simple questions. Is spirituality or religion important to you? Do you sense it has something to do with what's going on right now? and would you like to explore or have support around your spiritual exploration, your spiritual life? Those are questions and the patient in a loving alliance with good boundaries is free to say, no, you know, I don't, that's not important to me or I don't want to talk about that or maybe they'll come back and want to talk about it another time.

42:39But the vast majority of the time, well over 70 % of the time, patients say yes, yes, and yes to all three.

42:54When we come back, I ask Lisa about the role of spirituality in schools. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

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43:59Who? Me, Mike Peska. Each week, I tackle a listener question ranging from travel to finance to relationships and beyond with help from a world-class expert, you know, someone who actually very much knows what they're talking about. Think of it as eavesdropping on someone else's therapy session without the copay or awkward silences. You've got questions, we'll find the experts and the answers. So follow How To with Mike Peska wherever you get podcasts. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. At Columbia University, Lisa Miller studies the science of spirituality. She argues that we are paying short shrift to one of the most important interventions in our psychological and physical lives.

44:43Lisa, you've written and spoken about the importance of bringing spirituality into public life and our institutions. Does that include our schools? Oh, yes. So right now, there is a conversation that we are trying to help support between universities and K-12 schools. K-12 schools work very hard to prepare a student to enter the university, to pitch them through college admissions and have them find the right home in a college. And colleges are receiving students thinking, oh my, how strung out, how without a core we're finding the culture to have not prepared the students. So trying to bring what is effectively a spiritual crisis in the university back-propagated all the way back down into kindergarten and support the whole child development, starting in kindergarten, by strengthening the spiritual core of the whole child.

45:46There's an abundant science that shows that children with a strong personal spirituality are less addicted, less depressed, protected against suicide. Children with a strong spiritual life have greater grit, optimism, greater character, more able to endure difficult times, form relationships of commitment. There is nothing in the clinical or social sciences as profoundly important to child formation as a strong spiritual core. So then we might ask the question, can our schools, can our K-12 schools, which have come such a long way in whole child education, Now go the next step to support, based on science, the spiritual core of the whole child.

46:37And the answer is yes. We conducted a three-year grant-funded study, during which time we went to very diverse schools that did support the spiritual core of the whole child. We went to Sufi schools, yeshivas, Catholic schools. We went to Waldorf schools. We went to public schools in Oakland and Virginia. We went to independent schools, magnet schools. We went everywhere. It doesn't matter what geographical location, cultural niche, or religion might be present or not present in the school. No matter where we visited for three years, there is an intentional pedagogical culture in spiritually supportive schools.

47:26There was nothing that landed on the desk, no curriculum, no special workbook, no practice in the classroom that was found amongst all spiritually supportive schools. But what was common to all spiritually supportive schools was a deliberately designed, deeply intentional relational culture that supported the spiritual core of the child. And we were able to systematically distill the common DNA of a spiritually supportive pedagogical culture, which would apply to any school. Put that in a teachable form, and we now offer that as Awakened Schools, Awakened School Institute for free.

48:26Lisa, you told me about a time when you and your husband felt that the conversation at your social gatherings were unbearably superficial. You had dinner recently with a couple you were meeting for the first time, and the inevitable question came up, what do you do? Paint a picture of the scene for me and tell me what happened. Shankar is at a dinner party with some very, very interesting people who I knew had lived very adventurous, inspired lives. But once again, the weighty culture of achieving awareness beset our dinner party. What do you do? Where do you live? What does your partner do? You know, the sort of multivariable equation through which we predict someone's outcome, They're achieving awareness.

49:11And it seemed to me like a real missed opportunity. So this time I sat up and I took the bull by the horns and I said to some pretty prominent people, can you tell me about the most glorious day of your life? Two of them were intrigued and one was a little taken aback, but everybody played. One man said, you know, I felt very distanced from my childhood faith tradition. This gentleman was gay. He said I'd felt sort of cast out. But I was on a trip in Italy, and there in the piazza, I heard beautiful music from the choir pour through the piazza. And I went into the cathedral, and I felt God's presence in the most abundant way I've ever felt.

49:57The next person spoke, and she said, you know, I guess I'd have to say I was out sailing. And I felt the wind in my hair and the sun in my face. we have the opportunity of our lifetime to really know each other. It takes only our choice to say, do I want to have an achieving conversation or do I really want to have an awakened conversation? Do I want this relationship to open up so that I'm not, you know, keeping up with the Joneses, but I'm walking with the Joneses. I want to know you. I want to know your greatest challenges. I want to know the most beautiful moments. I want to know about the crossing of your ancestors and the birth of your children and grandchildren.

50:44I want to know the most high pixel glorious part of your life. Shankar, I think we have a choice to engage one another to have relationships which are narrowly two-dimensional achieving transactional relationships or we can open the aperture and know each other and know life itself through an awakened heart.

51:23What Lisa is challenging us to do is not easy. widening the aperture, getting beyond traditional benchmarks of achievement, deeply connecting with others, all of this can feel a bit daunting. Especially if you've been singularly focused on achieving an important goal in your career or personal life. We recently heard from a listener named Jean Charles. He's been grappling with a challenge like this. Jean Charles says that growing up, he always wanted to be an entrepreneur. What I was attracted to was, you know, the freedom of being my own boss, the learning curve of being into this environment, the belief that I could actually build something that mattered.

52:08Yeah, entrepreneurship became my North Star for many years. And I spent years searching after university for the right idea, the right project. And in the meantime, I was stuck in jobs that felt meaningless. But then, when he was 30, things finally fell into place. I met a business partner with whom we got along very well, and we built a fintech company together. And for seven years, that was my entire world. It was brutal, but it was a beautiful roller coaster. I felt completely alive. In 2020, Jean-Charles and his partner sold their business. On paper, the sales seemed like the culmination of everything he'd ever wanted.

52:54The financial freedom it would provide me with was the dream. But the moment I let go of the business, I also let go of the thing that made me feel like me. And all of a sudden, I had lost my purpose, and I had zero plan B. I'm 42 years old now, so we sold the company five and a half years ago. And what I struggle to describe, what I find really hard to put into words is what it actually feels like to be lost in this way. It's not sadness that I feel on a daily basis. It's more like watching my own life from behind the glass. I feel like time is passing, that things are happening around me and I'm not quite in it.

53:41I feel like I'm wasting my life really. I just have this unsettling question that follows me every day. It's, what is the point of all this? What is the point of all this? It's a question people have been grappling with for thousands of years. Various schools of thought have shaped how we answer it. A nihilist might say, there is no point. Nothing matters. A biologist would argue that our point is to survive and reproduce. An existentialist might say the point is whatever we make of it. But at Stanford University, Dave Evans argues that the question misses the point. When we come back, Dave grapples with life's big questions.

54:31You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

54:45This is a Monday.com ad. TheSameMonday.com helping people worldwide getting work done faster and better. TheSameMonday.com designed for every team and every industry. TheSameMonday.com with built-in AI, scaling your work from day one. TheSameMonday.com that your team will actually love using. TheSameMonday.com with an easy and intuitive setup. Go to Monday.com and try it for free. Yes, the same Monday.com. We all need advice, but it's not always clear who to ask, even in 2026. Enter How To, the longstanding advice show and Ambie Award-nominated Best Personal Growth podcast that's back with new episodes and a new host.

55:29Who? Me, Mike Peska. Each week, I tackle a listener question ranging from travel to finance to relationships and beyond with help from a world-class expert, you know, someone who actually very much knows what they're talking about. Think of it as eavesdropping on someone else's therapy session without the copay or awkward silences. You've got questions, we'll find the experts and the answers. So follow How To with Mike Peska wherever you get podcasts. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. When we feel stuck in life, it's often hard to see a way forward. We tell ourselves that if we just try a little bit harder, we'll figure out how to break free.

56:18At Stanford University, Dave Evans studies some of the most common traps that can lead to these feelings of stuckness. He recently joined us for two episodes of Hidden Brain. They were called Designing a Life That Matters and Radical Acceptance. We received so many questions and comments in response to these two episodes that we're going to dedicate two installments of our popular segment, Your Questions Answered, to addressing them. Dave Evans, welcome back to Hidden Brain. Shankar, it's good to be here again. Dave, before the break, we heard from a listener named Jean Charles. Something he said really struck me.

56:56He said he feels like he's watching his own life from behind a glass. So on paper, he's achieved his dream. He built a successful company and then he sold it. But now he feels like he has no purpose. What did you hear in his story? Well, he's found himself disengaged from what it felt like it means to be a human person. You know, he didn't realize what the relationship was between his project and his personhood. And when the project was done, it relocated him in this desirable, but much more disruptive than he anticipated place called financial independence. So he removed from his life that which almost every human being has had forever, which is the need to make a living.

57:45And so that that human project and my my participation in the human project is what locates me in my life. I mean, he loved the creativity, and he loved working with his partner, and he loved making a difference to his customers. And he thought that was what the whole thing was about. But all of that was located on the ground of the project of my personhood, which is making my life work and making the world work. And he took himself partly out of that, and he's not been able to re-find himself. You say that many of us hold certain notions that can get in the way of the lives we want to live. One of them is to feel fulfilled.

58:22So we feel like we're achieving the full potential of our lives. We heard from listener Soumea, who's from France. She's raising two daughters and aspires to write novels, but quickly gets overwhelmed when she tries to make progress on that goal. I'm supposed to work from home. And the reality is that I don't have time to work on my stories. I keep telling myself that I'm not making any money. my husband is the only one working and I'm not contributing financially for my family, then I start looking for a job and then I stop and think of all the consequences if I go back to work, how our life would be and I just feel stuck.

59:10I think that if I publish only one novel, I would be happy but then I think there is no way I'm going to help financially my family with only one novel and then I'm stuck again. I feel like I have everything. I have a wonderful husband. I love him very much. I have two wonderful beautiful daughters. I love them more than my life. We are healthy. We are doing great. We live in a great apartment. We live in a great city in France. I feel like I have everything I need, but I can't find meaning to my life. I don't know what to do with my life. And it's very hard sometimes. So, Dave, I feel like Sumeya is trying to take on multiple challenges at once.

1:00:03She wants to write a novel, which is a big goal in itself. But then she layers on the question of whether a single novel will be enough to move the needle financially for her family. That adds more pressure. And then she adds on another layer, which is the layer of finding meaning, which makes the challenge feel even more daunting. How do you think Sumeya can make her goals more manageable? Well, she's got a couple of things going on at the same time and very sympathetic. She's in a situation we actually call having what we call an anchor problem. She's anchored to a problem she can't seem to get loose from.

1:00:36So if that's the case, her anchor problem is, I want to have an experience of meaning making, which I've attached to writing a novel. And I want to make enough money to feel like I'm contributing at a level that satisfies my preferences or, frankly, my ego. Those are not good or bad things. They're just true. What's really true about Sumiya's life, what's really true about their finances, and those constraints will define what the problem space really is. If she needs money, I would agree with her. One novel is probably not the way to get that. So let's go get a job and then maybe you can write short stories on the side.

1:01:13But you've got to do some radical acceptance about that. If your husband's fine with supporting you, are you willing to do the hard thing called accepting a gift? So it's all about acceptance and living in reality. Hmm. So both Sumeya and Jean-Charles, both of them get at the big thorny question that many of us grapple with, which is what is the meaning of life? You argue that asking big existential questions like this is not always helpful. Why not, Dave? Well, particularly in the form of what is the meaning of my life, which sounds like there's an answer. You know, in Bill, my partner and I, our shortest definition of the human person anthropologically is that a person is a becoming.

1:01:57We are all an unfolding embodied spiritual intelligence, a very complicated being called a human person. And we're always growing into our future selves. So if the future me isn't here yet, how could my present me ever come up with one answer that is reliable for the rest of my life? So we're saying, how can I design more meaning in the life that I'm in now? So don't get stuck on trying to come up with the ultimate answer. And in both cases here, by the way, both John Charles and Soumeya have a point of view about what meaning has to be. In John Charles' case, there's an unspoken assumption about his relationship with the work world that he didn't realize.

1:02:43And for Soumeya, it's about money and meaning making. And so they've got little rules buried in their questions that are forcing them into a stuck place because they want it on their terms, frankly, and those terms aren't working. And so if we can reset to reality, here's the situation you're actually in that gives you some freedom to go forward to the place you can go, which may not be the place you want to go, but it is the place you can go. Another belief that you say can get in the way of change is the need to have impact. Now, that could be impact on the people around us, impact via our work, even an impact on the world as a whole.

1:03:22Now, many of us strive to have that impact but feel that our efforts are largely unsuccessful. Here's a note from listener Amy. When I was 12 years old, I declared on paper that I was going to spend the rest of my life saving animals. And that's what I did. At 16, I became a volunteer in animal shelter, worked my way up through the years to, you know, animal care tech, to shelter manager and then program coordinator through a couple different animal shelters. And then one day it just hit me that nothing I did really mattered. Nobody really cared. I felt like a waste of space there, a waste of money for the organization, honestly.

1:04:07And so I left. And now I avoid taking care of animals at all costs. It's insane. I don't know who I am anymore. So I can certainly feel Amy's pain here, Dave. Oh, boy, yeah. Talk about how our craving for impact shapes our choices and our perceptions of failure and success. So impact is a very worthwhile thing to pursue. We need a bunch of positive impacts. So, you know, the problem is when you put all of your meaning making eggs and in Amy's case, all your identity eggs in the impact basket, you're at terrific risk. Two ways. Number one, most of the time, even if you do everything right, your attempted impact doesn't work.

1:04:58I mean, it literally doesn't work. You try to save the animal and it dies anyway. Or even if it does work, it doesn't last very long in the world, or you succeed, and then, frankly, the feeling of it doesn't last very long. The half-life on an impact, which is an objective fact, it's a transaction, it's not a living thing, doesn't go on and on and on. We worked with the U.S. Olympic Committee because there's nothing as exciting as ascending the Olympic platform or as terrifying as descending it. on the other side of being the best in the world is like, now what? So this is a fundamental human problem and Amy's got it in spades.

1:05:39So the issue here is recognizing number one, that I need more than just impact making, more than just changing the world as a source of what makes my life worthwhile. If that's the only thing I've got going, I'm really at risk. And number two, on that aspect of my life that's pointed toward impact making, recognizing you have no power whatsoever over the outcome creating the result you want. All you can control is your participation. She was a very successful animal defender, but she wrote a rule for herself that unless I save this many animals or the world changes its mind or the people around me get it the way I get it, none of which she has any power over at all, by the way, unless those things become true, all my efforts were a waste of time.

1:06:30And that's a powerful rule that she has written. And frankly, it's untrue, and she can rewrite it.

1:06:42When we come back, inflection points, how moments when the ground collapses beneath us can help us to grow in remarkable ways. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam.

1:07:10This is a Monday.com ad. TheSameMonday.com designed for every team. TheSameMonday.com with built-in AI. Scaling your work from day one. TheSameMonday.com with an easy and intuitive setup. Go to Monday.com and try it for free. We all need advice, but it's not always clear who to ask, even in 2026. Enter How To, the longstanding advice show and Ambie Award-nominated Best Personal Growth podcast that's back with new episodes and a new host. Who? Me, Mike Peska. Each week, I tackle a listener question ranging from travel to finance to relationships and beyond with help from a world-class expert, you know, someone who actually very much knows what they're talking about.

1:07:51Think of it as eavesdropping on someone else's therapy session without the copay or awkward silences. You've got questions. We'll find the experts and the answers. So follow How To with Mike Peska wherever you get podcasts.

1:08:10This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Many of us dream of making an impact on the world. But this aspiration doesn't always bring happiness. And when we see we're not making an impact, we can start to feel trapped in a job or a relationship. At Stanford University, Dave Evans studies how we can design our lives in ways that can be more satisfying and enduringly successful.

1:08:39So let me turn again to listener questions and stories. We heard from a listener named Brian. He was the city manager of a community north of Detroit. On paper, he had achieved a lot of success. He had leadership, influence, stability. But inside, he says he felt trapped. Every morning on my drive to City Hall, I passed under the I-75 overpass and told myself the same thing. I have to get out of this job. I must change my life. But I was successful and bored, restless, toxic, profoundly stuck. Then my life spiraled even further downward. Divorce, drinking, sleeping alone on the floor with nothing, all while showing up at the office, poised, professional, and well-spoken, but not very sharp.

1:09:28Just when I thought I hit bottom, the trap door opened, and further I went. The FBI had wired a road construction contractor who had befriended me. We got drunk during the Christmas season and he took me out to his truck to discuss business. He handed me a thousand dollars money, money I accepted, and asked me if I was going to give him the new road contract. Shortly thereafter, I pled guilty to bribery. I was sentenced to 30 months in federal prison. Hello, hell. What should have been the worst chapter of my life became an unexpected reset. Prison stripped away my title, ego, and identity, but it also forced me to rebuild from the ground up, one step at a time.

1:10:12The irony is that the very thing I feared most became the catalyst for rebirth. Prison gave me the disruption I never could have chosen for myself, but desperately needed. It forced me to confront how deeply stuck I had been long before my conviction. So as Brian experienced, sometimes life forces us to change. We also heard from a listener named Audrey, who enjoyed a successful career in IT until she was laid off in 2024. And it gave me the opportunity to reassess. I took a step back and was reminded by one of my daughters that a while back I considered being a birth doula. And that seemed like such a radical departure from a director of IT.

1:10:58I couldn't even imagine how that might happen. But I began looking into it and have since over the past year built a wonderful new career as a birth doula, childbirth educator, and lactation consultant, supporting new moms who are having babies. And I feel like with the birth of the first few babies that I've helped, I've done more good for the world than I did in 25 years in IT. So that's another amazing story, Dave. And I'm so struck by something that both Brian and Audrey said, that they would never have made the choices they made if they had to make them on their own. It's only because one door closed that they could start to think about a new one.

1:11:38As someone who studied how we can intentionally design our lives, I'm wondering how these stories land for you. Well, you know, the work that Bill and I do has put us in the place of hearing lots of people's stories, lots of people like Brian and Audrey. And what it turns out is most people's lives, if you look back from 60 or 70 or 80, they'll tell you there's a handful of inflection points where everything changed. And those inflection points are the most meaningful transitions in their lives. Very often they know the exact minute that those inflection points occurred. And most of them are outside in, not inside out.

1:12:17It's not when Audrey, you know, decided, I think I've done as much for IT as I can. And now I'm going to start living into my doula self. That would be inside out. That would be, and I got laid off. And holy cow, now what do I do? And so it turns out for most people, not every by any means, but many important changes occur outside in. And so in both Brian and Audrey's cases, in one case prison, in one case the layoff, Outside in showed up with such strength that it gave them permission to finally think differently about themselves. Maybe I could do this differently. So what, you know, what Audrey is doing is is a perfect example of what we say all the time.

1:12:58All of us contain far more aliveness, more personhood than one lifetime permits you to live out. There's more than one of you in there. She had fallen for her director of IT self. In fact, I think she actually used the phrase, I couldn't imagine a way to live into that being a birth doula. You know, our colleague at Harvard, Dan Gilbert, talks about that question. When somebody tells you, I just can't imagine, most of the time what that tells you is not how unlikely that thing is. It tells you that that person's imagination is not reaching far enough. So what we do, a lot of our work is trying to reframe a person's perception of themselves.

1:13:40You are bigger than one lifetime worth of a person. You don't have to be just one of you. You could actually decide to live into another version of you. I can't promise you you can make as much money as a birth doula as you could as a director of IT. I can't change the market forces for you. But you can actually be in charge of your life. Hmm. You know, I'm struck that some of the stories we've heard are people who feel like they're stuck in dead-end jobs, things are not going well, and they're trying to get themselves unstuck. But we're also hearing stories from people who say, you know, I'm super successful, but I'm not doing what I really should be doing, and I also feel stuck.

1:14:18And in some ways, it's a more subtle form of stuckness, which is it's success that is causing you to feel stuck as opposed to failure. There's a big difference between proving to yourself that you can achieve a certain outcome and wanting to live there and do that. When I was 18 and I was a senior in high school, I had always thought since sixth grade that I should be the president of the student body. For some reason, I decided that's who I am. And so when I was a senior, I ran for president because I wanted to win president. Now, my dear friend Kent, who really wanted to be president of the school, he spent his whole summer interviewing every high school president in all of Southern California.

1:15:03He talked to all the principals. He was looking at where is education going? What reforms could we bring to our high school? He had this huge platform of work and policies that he was going to lead to actually make the school a better school. I just wanted to be elected. I just want to have the experience of all my peers going, Dave is our favorite guy. You know, and so I ran and thankfully Kent beat me with a stick. I lost miserably. And I walked away from that going, shoot, thank God, you know, because I don't want to do this work. And there's a huge difference between I really want to be elected.

1:15:39I want to become CEO. I want to make a million dollars. I want to have a bestselling book. I want to have I want to achieve something. I want to achieve a ribbon or a prize of some kind. And then, oh, now I am the CEO and I have this huge job and it's a ton of work and everybody's on me all day long. Like, oh, wow. We talk about designing your life, not designing your goal. Life isn't a goal. Life is a lived experience. So many of these questions often come to the fore in midlife. People are often taking stock of where they are, where they want to go. Here's a story from listener Olga. I am a woman in my 40s and in my 20s I had this drive and plan.

1:16:24I was going to be an attorney. I had a whole career path planned out for myself. And when I came out of law school and I wasn't able to secure position, I ended up just letting that dream die. And it stopped me from making any plans. and I find myself kind of drifting along with my husband's plans or my parents' plans or whoever else has an idea for where their life is going to go. I have a job and I'm working, but I don't feel like my life is designed. I'm wondering, do you have any advice for somebody who is facing kind of a midlife without a design in plan, without an idea of how to design your life moving forward on best steps to take.

1:17:12So Dave, you and I talked a bit in our Hidden Brain Plus conversation about using design thinking in different stages of life. That conversation was called Seasons of Meaning for anyone who'd like to go back and hear it. Talk if you would, Dave, about the particular design challenges we face when we're at the midpoint of life and how you would advise Olga at the stage that she's in right now. So, okay, Olga has a real problem and I've encountered it many times. It's not that uncommon. So she had something very specific in mind and it failed. Didn't work out. She actually did everything right. She went to a law school.

1:17:46She was on the plan that she had conceived in her twenties and had energy for, and it didn't work out. And when it didn't work out, she had no plan B in mind. She probably didn't have an idea of what the not a successful lawyer Olga even could be and what would design thinking recommend that Olga do. Olga needs something that she hasn't had in a long time, an interest in something she cares about. And so if I were sitting down with Olga in office hours, I'd say, Olga, look, you've been doing other people's things for a long, long, long time. It has worked out okay. It's not horrible, but it's not very life-giving.

1:18:24And now finally, your psyche is saying, hey, we think it's our turn, but we have no idea what to do with it. So great. That's a great project. Let's go curate your curiosity. Tell me what you're interested in. Tell me what books you read. I would work with her to find anything at all that she cares about. And let's grab one or two of those things and start reading vertically down into those things. Let's write those authors and find their contact on LinkedIn. in. Let's get into the conversation. Let's see who else in your town cares about that and go buy them a cup of coffee. We'll start working on Olga caring about something she cares about.

1:19:04It's totally doable, but she's got a long sleep to awaken from.

1:19:14When we come back, listeners share their stories of how they've gotten unstuck. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedant.

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1:20:24Each week, I tackle a listener question ranging from travel to finance to relationships and beyond with help from a world-class expert, you know, someone who actually very much knows what they're talking about. Think of it as eavesdropping on someone else's therapy session without the copay or awkward silences. You've got questions. We'll find the experts and the answers. So follow How To with Mike Peska wherever you get podcasts. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. At Stanford University, Dave Evans studies design thinking. He says that this approach can help us lead more meaningful lives.

1:21:01Along with Bill Burnett, he is the author of How to Live a Meaningful Life, Using Design Thinking to Unlock Purpose, Joy, and Flow Every Day. Today, he's answering listener questions and comments about his work. Dave, one of the suggestions you make is to remain fully engaged but calmly detached with any project? Unpack this idea for me. What does it mean to be fully engaged but calmly detached? So fully engaged means you're showing up, you're fully participating in what you're doing at the time. It really means you're entering the flow state, which we could talk more about. But what that means is my attention, my energy, my experience of myself and my surroundings is all focused on what's actually happening right now.

1:21:45I'm not talking to Shankar and thinking about what I'm going to cook for dinner or our friend Catherine who's visiting. I hope she's having a good time. That's not being engaged. That's being distracted. So engagement means my full attention in the present moment. Detachment means, and that thing I'm doing, I'm doing for its own sake freely, not worrying about the outcome and its results. So gosh, I really hope this Q and A session goes well. It's great that Shankar called back and asked me, okay, that's all worrying about the outcome. So I want to be fully engaged. So I'm really thinking about your listener questions.

1:22:17I want to be detached. And those two things together allow me to be more fully alive in the moment. And that full aliveness allows me to feel more like a person. And feeling more like a person is pretty meaningful. So staying in the moment and remaining engaged is a worthy goal, but it can be tricky to maintain that over time. A listener named Kaushal says his life seems great on paper. Here he is. I'm someone who is from, you know, of the hills of Sri Lanka. I got a great scholarship to go to one of the best schools in the world. I then moved to London and married to love my life. I have a gorgeous little baby who's 13 months old.

1:22:55And I do incredible work as a consultant in financial services. I have a phenomenal team. I have mentors. I have opportunity. So it's all there, but I feel stuck. What landed for me was the distinction between being in the moment to do better at what you're doing and being in the moment just because I was raised a Buddhist. So mindfulness, presence, that's all been taught my whole life. But where I struggle with is how do you actually keep staying in the moment? How do you keep making the best of the moment? Is it a habit? Is it something else? Just would love some thoughts on that. So David, sounds like Kaushal is doing many of the things that you and others would recommend.

1:23:41The question is how to maintain these practices, not just when you're making time for meditation, but as you're going about your daily life. Any thoughts on that particular challenge? Yes, and I'm smiling because I'm very impressed. Kauschal has really thoughtfully observed himself and asked an interesting question. He's catching himself realizing, oh my goodness, moment by moment, I notice, am I in this moment and I'm loving it because I'm doing it well, or am I enjoying it? Am I loving it because it's intrinsically valuable to me and I love this thing? So what he has pointed out is we recently had this conversation with Bob Waldinger at Harvard, the last project leader of the longest running behavioral study of mankind, the Harvard Adult Study, reminded us that if you live all through extrinsic motivations outside in, you know, curing cancer, making the money, making partner, whether it's a selfish or a selfless goal, it's still outside in.

1:24:43And you lose track of the intrinsic motivators of love, compassion, joy, things for their own intrinsic sake. And you do too much extrinsic and too little intrinsic, you start losing over time the capacity to even notice and catch the signals of the experience of the intrinsic experience. So what Kaushal is catching himself in is, oh my goodness, I'm mostly extrinsically motivated. So the first thing is be forgiving. If I'm a becoming, I'm going to get better tomorrow, which means by tomorrow I will look back and say I was worse today. That's okay. You don't have to boil the ocean in one step.

1:25:22One step at a time, you're a becoming. We're going to get there. It starts with the realization he's actually in a very good place. Dave, we heard from some listeners who said that their ability to redesign their lives is limited. Three years ago, listener Miguel moved with his family to Singapore. His wife landed an exciting new job, and they jumped at the chance for their two young kids to live abroad. But Miguel says it hasn't been easy. I've had to also make a really big adjustment as far as how I spend my time, how I view career. and I've also had to navigate some loss. My mom had died a few months ago due to complications from cancer, which really sparked a lot of questions about just purposefulness in life and meaning.

1:26:12And these are questions that I myself had asked when I also got sick during the pandemic, also with cancer, which I have since survived. And I really appreciate the designing of our own lives, the concept of that, and I'm just wanting to figure out what's a way I can honor that process without having it be so self-centered. Having two really young kids and a partner who depends on me, I would like to make sure that even as I interrogate my own life and think about how to make responsible choices and restart career that I don't do so without compromising my responsibility to my partner and to my kids.

1:27:00So if there's any question there, I suppose it's what can I do to balance designing my life and taking this fresh opportunity for a start while not neglecting my responsibilities as a partner and as a parent. So Miguel has been through a lot over the past few years, Dave. And as he said, he also has responsibilities to his partner and to his family. And that means his ability to maneuver for himself might be somewhat constrained. How can people like Miguel still think about designing their paths forward when they have all these responsibilities and constraints? Well, of course they are. We're all constrained.

1:27:39Design thinking is not a magic wand. Design thinking is not the perpetual motion machine that is suddenly going to, oh, if I design my life, now that's the key and I can get everything I want. No, you can't. That's totally okay. Welcome to humanity. Now what we're saying back to acceptance is I begin with reality, including the acceptance that I am a finite person. In a recent book, we talk a lot about the three big reframes around impact, fulfillment, and the scandal of particularity. What the heck is the scandal of particularity? It's the recognition like, oh my gosh, it turns out no ultimate is ever fully experienced.

1:28:19Love, beauty, justice, compassion, you name it. We'll never ever actually see that whole thing in reality. We see temporary, flawed, constrained, circumstantial reflections of those things called a particularity and they come and they go. And then when you realize that, then suddenly you go, oh my gosh. And one of the biggest particularities is me. I am a small expression of the fullness of the thing called me. We will never know the fullness of Miguel. We will simply know the revealed Miguel that he chooses to bring to the world in the constrained little thing called 7 by 24 hours and the constrained little thing called what Singapore is doing and what his family has.

1:29:05he has boxed himself in and that's the good news because now the design task isn't to transcend that box or to beat gravity you can't do that what you can do is i can make the most of what is so design we talk about get more out of your life not cram more into it there's nothing missing in his life other than deeply accepting the priorities of what he's going to do and what he's not going to do. And once those decisions are made, own them and then get the most aliveness out of them you possibly can. So constraint is actually your friend because it narrows the field of what you have to worry about.

1:29:45I just turned 73 and, you know, past 50, you start losing muscle mass. I'm a motorcyclist and I like to go on motorcycle tours with my soon to be wife. And I have a rule. You're not allowed to ride a motorcycle you can't pick up. Well, I've got this great big 600-pound motorcycle. I can barely pick it up. And the time is coming when I can't do that anymore. Is that a problem? No, it's just true. So I'm going to live into it while I can, enjoy the heck out of it while I can, and then I'll do something else. Constraint is not an enemy. It's just true. We talked earlier about the perils of putting too much of our self-worth into the idea that we need to make an impact.

1:30:26We heard from a listener named Brittany who teaches high school orchestra. She often senses that students take orchestra because it looks good on college applications. And she wonders whether her teaching is actually helping students fall in love with music. Here she is. And I had one particular student who was a very fine musician, an all-state violinist, you know, pleasant to work with in class, but I really thought that I annoyed her. and I really thought that she was just barely tolerating my existence and my enthusiasm for all things orchestra-related. And she gave me a letter at graduation that completely floored me and got me 100 % unstuck.

1:31:05Because in her letter she outlined how much she respected everything that she had witnessed me do in the past several years and how the orchestra program had grown in the few short years that I had been there, how she found it so inspiring to have this experience with a woman conductor. her. She went on in the letter to write about how she had written about me for her college application essay, which got her into her dream school of Georgetown, and how inspired she had been every day that she sat in my classroom. I mean, cue the waterworks. I was just completely shocked that I had had this profound impact on the student, and I had genuinely no idea.

1:31:41So I've kept that letter all these years, and I pull it out once or twice a year to remind myself that even when it feels that I'm not making the headway that I want, either musically or personally with these students, that chances are I probably am, because I had no idea the impact I was having on this student. So I want to talk for a moment, Dave, about how when we think about impact, we're actually focused on the impact that we can see. We're often not paying attention to the impact that we cannot see. And very often the things that we do can have impact far beyond what we are actually aware of.

1:32:16In this case, of course, Brittany heard from her students, so she found out what was happening in her students' life. But for many of us, the things that we do, many of the things in our day-to-day life are going to have impacts on people that we cannot possibly ever learn about. And in some ways, we discount them, and we imagine that we're having no impact. Well, Brittany had a very good day when she got that letter. That's a lovely experience. And that kind of thing does happen all the time. But back to that fully engaged, calmly detached idea, you have to remember you don't know what somebody else is thinking.

1:32:49There's a great line that my late wife used to quote all the time from Rabinjanath Tagore talking about relationships where he said, you know, the best we can do is to salute one another from the borders of our solitude. He was talking about intimacy, you know, and we were in a marriage. We were talking about that, you know, that we can get incredibly close in an us. But at the end of the day, that other person over there is this mystical combination of spirit and intellect and physicality and somatic reality and history and DNA and culture. And the truth is, I have no idea what their experience is.

1:33:27And can I remember to respect that? There's always the border of solitude between me and every other person. And that shouldn't scare me off. It should simply make me a little humble so that there's that possibility. I remain a little bit open. I recall a student. Every now and then we get a troublesome student. There's a young man who's in a small group and frankly, he's kind of acting out and he was grumpy and difficult and he didn't like to answer the questions and he criticized other people in his group. And we kind of hoped he'd drop the class. So I tricked him into coming into office hours where I was probably going to encourage him to drop.

1:34:01And it started with, you know, well, how's it going? And I had this incredible experience. He starts, and again, in this very grumpy, upset way, kind of goes, well, you know, I don't know. I'm just, I'm having such a good time. This thing is really amazing. It's changing the way I think about everything. I'm so glad I'm taking the class, you know, and these other students are really helping me. so i mean this this i'm like okay the soundtrack and the video are really out of sync here and but and i said oh okay so i did coach him but i said no by the way um and you're kind of struggling with this aren't you yeah i really have a kind of yeah the struggle part's really evident in fact it's kind of overwhelming the joy part and you're scaring your friends get you back off a little bit and he did um but the point being you know So you never know.

1:34:50And then meanwhile, what that does mean is, let's say Brittany didn't get that letter. At the end of the day, do the work, bring your gift, whether or not it lands. You know, there's the old line, you know, that, you know, one plows, one plants, you know, another waters, but God gives the growth. Back in the day when we lived in an agrarian society, we remembered I'm doing my part and it's part of a greater thing that I'm not in charge of. In the post-capitalistic, technologically enabled world, we think we actually can control outcomes, and we can't. You just do the best you can do. I want to play you a story from a listener, Laura, Dave.

1:35:34She recently retired from 35 years in education, and in many ways, I think her story sums up so many of the ideas you have been talking about. I had many opportunities to work with people that I really appreciated and with, you know, thousands of students over the years who I believe I've impacted in a positive way. That said, I'm not sure that my career really was the fulfillment in my life. and it wasn't until I retired that I discovered that there is no destination that you could call happiness that you can't set a goal that I'm going to be happy in the future or I'm going to find my life fulfilling when I look back on it rather I've discovered that it's more of a daily journey where I spend time each day making choices that allow me to arrive at the places that give me happiness and make me feel like my life is fulfilling.

1:36:38I volunteer. I enjoy the outdoors. I enjoy cycling. I get outside every day. I spend time with my family, my grandchildren, my friends. And I do things that probably I would have never done when I was working full time and just trying to get all the tasks in my life out of the way. I would just hope that everybody gets the chance to make the choices that make each day very happy and ultimately give them a fulfilling life. So I think Laura could take your job, Dave. What do you think? Yep. No problem. Laura has cracked the code. She points out, wait a minute, even though I had the career, the output, the impact, the result, that in and of itself was not first and foremost what my life is about.

1:37:33It's lovely when that occurs. And it does matter. Don't get me wrong. Having a positive impact, if you can pull it off, is totally worthwhile. But what makes it worthwhile isn't just that result. That result is frankly just the feedback loop. What makes it ultimately worthwhile is I am stewarding this thing called my life. Her job isn't to be the best teacher in the world. Her job is Laura Ng. And Laura Ng looked good in the teacher form. And now it looks good in a retired form that includes volunteering and enjoying nature. And what we're doing is taking this little chunk of aliveness that we've been given.

1:38:13Now, whatever your philosophy, whether you think God gave it to you or the universe did or DNA gave it to you, you didn't give it to you. None of us formed ourselves. We've received from somewhere this gift called an aliveness. And it's up to you to steward how to bring it to the world, including just every single day, nurturing that on behalf of yourself and one another. And if you do that well, we all win. She's doing a great job.

1:38:45Dave Evans is a behavioral scientist at Stanford University. With Bill Burnett, he's the author of How to Live a Meaningful Life, Using Design Thinking to Unlock Purpose, Joy, and Flow Every Day. Dave, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain. Thank you, Shankar.

1:39:04Next week on Your Questions Answered, Dave Evans responds to your stories of radical acceptance. We also heard today from psychologist Lisa Miller of Columbia University.

1:39:39today's conversation, please consider sharing it with your friends and loved ones. Word of mouth recommendations really help to connect more people with the ideas and research that we explore on the show. I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.